Inclusive leadership

Claire Manning 0:00

Hello, my name is Claire Manning from Canberra Blind Society. My colleague Peter Granleese and I are members of the Canberra Blind Society Mentoring Program. And we would like to welcome everyone to our four part podcast series that goes with our checklist resources that are available in the Canberra Blind Society website. In podcast two, Peter and I will be sharing insights and stories related to inclusive leadership. We hope you enjoy it. At the end of this podcast, I'm going to share a summary of our checklists to strengthen inclusive leadership in the workplace. However, before we start, Peter, I want you to share with us two or three items from the full checklist that you believe are most important. Would you be able to speak on the being willing to make workplace adjustments? Key Point?

Peter Granleese 0:50

Yes, Claire. Going back looking at my own work experience here. I think that employing a vision impaired person, for example, is just another person you employ. There's just another resource, and you make any adjustments you need to make to accommodate that person. For example, I would have no difficulty if a vision impaired person came on my team, not because I'm vision impaired. But I know that any adjustment that needs to be made at the workplace would be quite minor and not as daunting as some people would think. So adjustments are not very hard to do. Sometimes they can get a bit more complex. Depending on the duties a person would have to do, say, for example, they have to work with a system is not readily adaptable, to be used for JAWS. But generally speaking, the adjustments aren't very great. So to my mind it's not really an issue is just something you would do.

Claire Manning 1:45

So it's an example of really embracing inclusiveness. And I know, we've found out a bit with regards to programs like Job Access that also offer some funding, if an organization needs, ticks, all the boxes, but if an organization needs to fund some of those adjustments, but we've found that particularly with vision impairment, it's not a lot, there's a bit of software and things like that. One of the other ones on the list was successful leaders are approachable, and they like people, what are your thoughts on that?

Peter Granleese 2:18

I think this is crucial. As a good team leader, you do need to be approachable, you're working with a diverse group of people, each person is an individual, and they have individual needs. So it's very important. Therefore, to start the dialogue. Very early on in the piece, I realized as a vision impaired person, going into the workplace, as a manager, I needed to have the confidence of the staff I worked for, which meant I had to go out of my way to be friendly, and to be approachable and more or less available to their own need. We talked about here about the difficulties they might have doing their work, performing their duties. And in some cases, I even got roped into some of their personal thing, the marriage problems, I'm not marriage counsel, I made it very clear to them. But they sometimes want somebody just to talk to get off their chest. And I was amenable to that because I realized that was part of being a good manager is being sympathetic to the need.

Claire Manning 3:18

And I'm guessing that helped you understand when they were performing to full capacity. And then if they backed off with their capacity, it gave you an understanding of what was going on. And I'm guessing how you could support them in that

Peter Granleese 3:31

Well, sometimes when I say I got mixed up with their own personal private problems, marriage was one of them. Domestic violence was another occasion. And that was simply because they just weren't performing as I used to call them in and say, what's going wrong, you're making too many mistakes as something wrong. And so that led on to some of their problems. And knowing what these problems were, what I was expecting was very important to know that as my as job as a manager.

Claire Manning 4:05

So, that highlights that you asked the question, but they felt comfortable with you, you'd built a relationship, that they could share that really personal stuff that was happening. Yeah, I can imagine with some leaders that aren't that inclusive, it could end up being a little bit more of a tricky interaction between the leader, you know, a boss and their staff, if there wasn't that good relationship, and I suppose it makes me contemplate the places I've worked at. When it comes to leadership. We're very big on someone doing well in their role, but if it's a technical person, and they're really good in their role, I've seen places that they've turned them into a leader, but they're not really "people people". So it's a strange progression we have in our workplaces, where if you're good at your job, whether it's people focused on technical focused, you get put into a leadership role. And I know a lot of people who've been quite skilled in the technical area are reluctant because they know they're not good with people skills. 

So I think there are two good things: making sure you're really support workplace adjustments, and being a people person, strong, inclusive leadership skills. But the other half of the checklist talks about from our work that we've done, and also our own personal experience, areas where managers and teams could do better. And this is where it creates the barriers and challenges. And the one that was a bit significant was the top is to learn more change and adapt individual perceptions and limit assumptions. So we, we come to our role as a supervisor, with a whole lot of preconceived ideas, don't we?

Peter Granleese 5:35

There are two types of managers, I think, three types of managers I've experienced, those are people who are very amenable, and I've had some very good managers who have gone out of their way to include me in the workplace to help me. The second type are those who probably want to help me. And they can see that I'm struggling, but they just don't know what to do. They're not sure how to start the dialogue, if you like. They don't know what questions to ask whether they're being offensive, or not, things like that. So they don't make the effort to get to know me, not because they have any malice, simply because they're unsure how to do it, they don't have the skill sets, they don't know how to do it. And there is a third type of engine, I've experienced these people as well. The problem is too hard. They're not interested in trying to help, they just hope that you'll move on and take away the problem to them. So three types of managers, the good, the ones trying to be good, and the ones that are no good,

Claire Manning 6:40

Right, excellent summing up of it. And we've all experienced people in that place. But I think it has that extra level, if you need just that extra support. So one of the other areas that I thought I'd asked you about is through your experience as a mentor over the last few years. What are your thoughts on why building inclusive leadership skills are so important in workplaces today?

Peter Granleese 7:03

I think for two reasons, I think society expects that it's inclusive. And I think that's reflected in the attitudes of people who are expected in the workplace. I think that there are two points I'd make here is firstly, I think, an inclusive workplace, which more properly reflects our multicultural and diverse society. So if the workplace is inclusive and diverse, that reflects the company, how it performs, and how it works, and whether it works well or not. The second thing is a personal thing for me anyway, is that, in my experience, and I'm going back a long way now, the law was one of the jobs I could enter. And that worked quite well for me. And lots of people my age, vision impaired people went down that path as well. I'm legal, I went into the public service, a legal graduated now as a three or four other people have done that way seems to be the way to go. And that's because it's easy to do all the information, you need the law, the case clause, the policy, everything you deal with is online. So that's easily accessible. The introduction of computers, and a more enlightened attitude has meant the range of jobs available to vision impaired people has increased. 

From my point of view, once I got a job, and for me getting a job in the Office of Fair Trading, which I lasted there for the last 10 years of my career. And I've spoken to other people about this as well. Once you get the job, this is not that you know you can do, you can make it your own.

Claire Manning 8:43

But let me tell you, you did it when there wasn't computers!

Peter Granleese 8:45

Yeah.

Claire Manning 8:47

So I mean, that's the thing. Now they've got an easy those little graduates.

Peter Granleese 8:53

I think it might have been an engineer accountant coming through now.

Claire Manning 8:56

Do you have a couple of stories, Peter, that provide positive examples of inclusive leadership from our work on the mentoring program?

Peter Granleese 9:04

Oh, two people I can think of over dealt with. The first example I can think of was a young lady who were joined the government organisation as a legal graduate and looked at from afar, she encountered difficulties. The first difficulty was that the application process wasn't accessible to her. So she had to confront them before she applied for the job. And they worked out how she could do the application. They invited her in and they gave it to her on a thumb drive. And she sat in the back office and did the application then they interviewed and they gave her the job and she's now a senior legal officer there. She does all the work required of her she writes legal opinions and does a number of her quoters 30 a month, and she's very happy the management team leader treat her very professionally. She's very happy in her work. She's a senior legal officer with occasional opportunities to act in I duties when they come available. 

The other person having been appointed as a legal officer to another government department has had quite a few difficulties getting established in that organisation. And that was because he was in a particular case where a lot of the information he needs to get across was hand written and not easily scannable. There were other issues that his technology couldn't do. He was also bound by a lot of the things he did was appeal for the AAT. So the court dictated time things as well. His career wasn't really prospering, he'd applied for a number of other jobs, which he didn't get didn't get any feedback as to why he was unsuccessful. And so when I first talked to him, he was quite negative. I asked him whether he talked to his supervisor, and he told me that your supervisor wasn't that interested. And he just hoped that he would just go along and perhaps go away and do something differently. 

After a number of sessions with him, I managed to convince him to go and shirt front his supervisor and demand they sit down, talk through these issues, and into that newfound quiet to his surprise, the supervisor, once they start to talk through the issues and examined some of the barriers that prevented him performing his job, that he got some progress supervisors was quite helpful, he will not probably stay in that job. But they have agreed that Sydney's interested to stay there for a while longer, while he learns a lot about the particular area he's working in. And he will be very successful work in other areas, that organization at the moment, of course, he's a mentor to the lot of legal graduates coming into the office of the third time. He's helping out with some of the new technology and, and other sort of positive things relating to the workings of the particular unit he's in. So he is set on on a career now, he is very happy, and looking forward to a bright future in that particular organization.

Claire Manning 12:07

I think the interesting part of your two examples,

Peter is that when we talk about lived experience, under the mentoring program, we talk about lived experience with visual impairment. But you offered them both lived experience and vision impairment and lived experience with law backgrounds. And I do know with the second person that you spoke about, I could really hear I sort of sometimes joined in the conversations in the last year or so. And I could really hear the confidence change, like you said, and I think for everyone, applying for jobs can be disheartening. And if you have struggles with that, and you're not getting any feedback, plus, you may have additional needs, because you've got a vision impairment, or you've got another disability or something like that, it can be disheartening. And you can go on a bit of a spiral down, but I think the timing of our program was perfect for that mentee, wasn't it? Because they got to have a chat. And I do know, you know, the two of us are good as a chat and you two, were good at a chat as well.

Peter Granleese 13:06

We gave him the confidence to take it further. And had been on intervened. I don't think he would have.

Claire Manning 13:14

I think you're right there. And I think he acknowledged that and

Peter Granleese 13:18

Took it further and that was a tie breaker for him. There are times in our careers been a time in my career, when I could detect it was a game changer. When my career turns to the bed at night. I can go back to one point in my career when that happened. And he will be able to look back, I'm sure to a timeline when his career turned for the better.

Claire Manning 13:38

And I think that's from what he shared with us was not that he was building networks, he was showing where his skills were, he was quite honest about not meeting some targets. But was finding other ways to bring a lot to that organization, a lot of benefit to that organisation as well as doing his role. And I think he's sort of calmed a bit because I think he was, you know, what it was a public service, public services about applying for another job, you know, getting the next thing. And he was a bit caught up in that when we first met with him. And by the time we spoke to him a year later, and he stayed in contact with us, after the sort of the one on one mentoring happened. And it worked. It worked really well for him. And I think you too are going to exchange phone numbers keeping contact in coming years. So as I said that lived experience has multiple levels. I suppose they're positive examples. 

Now, you actually already covered some of this question earlier on but similar to there being a variety of ways people experienced their vision impairment. From our work on the mentoring program, there appears to be different kinds of approaches to leadership, which you already sort of covered. There's the good leader is the leader who's a bit reticent to not do the wrong thing. So chooses to just not do much at all. And then there's the ones who say, Oh, Having someone with a disability is just lots of extra work and you're too busy here. So, in that we also talked about the different experiences of people with a vision impairment. And you had some thoughts on that with regards to people who've, you know, recently had a condition that their sights deteriorating, and also people who've been blind all their life.

Peter Granleese 15:20

Yeah, we'll see, I think no two blind people are the same. We all experience different things as a vision impaired person. Being blind all of my life more or less, I had a little bit of a vision, but not much. And I've talked to people who have had no vision, they know no other way except the condition their being born with. And as you grow up and go through university, you develop all the life skills that allow you to participate, and you're looking for advancement and in a job looking to be successful. And you have the skills to do that. If you lose your sight later in life, and there are certain diseases, retinitis pigmentosa is a very common one that afflicts adults in their 20s and 30s. So they've lived the first part of their life with full sight before that condition kicks in. And when you think that 90% of everything we see and do is done by line of sight, the other four senses, such as hearing, and touch, which are very important for vision impaired people, and you make up with a small portion, the other 10%, losing your sight for the first time is a great shock. 

And that causes people who are affected that way to sort of give up, they take the sighted view, I can no longer see it, so I can no longer do it. They retire into themselves, they become isolated, and lose interest in life. Whereas with the proper training and systems, a person loses their sight. They can read learn the skills using their sense of touch, and hearing, and continue on. And I know one instance in the public service where that particular person with losing your sight and they tried to carry on and tried to wing it. And they caused all sorts of problems. Because they couldnt wing it. Once they could no longer see that computer screen. They tried to wing it that didn't work. And I remember talking to one of the people involved there and said, If only they talked to us, we could help them and there is help on the way these days. So losing your sight is no fun. But it's not the end of the world.

Claire Manning 17:33

Yeah, because that was an interesting part that I hadn't really thought about before being on this program. Because it's like what you say, I'm trying to wing us. Yeah. And then everyone's thinking they're just not performing well, because they don't know. They haven't acknowledged or they haven't disclosed, that they are having sort of,

Peter Granleese 17:50

They have enough sight to carry on to walk down the corridor and get on the bus, but they can't see the computer screen. Yeah,

Claire Manning 17:58

exactly. But but then there was that added level that I don't know where it came from. There's also grieving like you say, they've lived their life side. So losing their sight is a major issue. The world is much more dependent on what you see than other ways. And interesting, there was someone I think you and I spoke to recently, who did exactly the giving up, had quite a good job, and found out that they were losing their sight and sort of decided to spend more time with their family, which was fair enough, and things like that, and sort of took a step back. And now, five years later, thinking actually, there's so much more to life than I can do. And kind of regrets making that decision. But it was based on him being a sighted person and all

Peter Granleese 18:45

he thought he could no longer do it. Yeah, he was a classic situation. And I said, had I met you five years ago, when using a sight I will talk to you after resigning from the public service, because you have very good skills that public servers could use, even though you no longer have in the sight.

Claire Manning 19:04

That's right. And so like with our previous mentee, timing was perfect timing. This particular person was not so perfect. We needed to be around five years ago. And I think from what I can gather, he worked a lot in the IoT. So he would have, you know, been a real valuable asset and vision. People are very good with it. Yes, they are. They are. So that's an that's our thing with regards to it. So the next question was around sort of based on your experience, and you've probably covered some of it. But you've had a variety of leadership roles through your work with the ACT government, but also your community advocacy. So as a leader, what tips do you have? Because you know a bit about both sides? Yeah.

Claire Manning 19:47

What tips would you have?

Peter Granleese 19:48

Well, there are two very important things I learned as a team leader. You can't pick your team's so it's knowing what you've got and how to use it to achieve the game. clips of the team, I played to the good point of the staff, I had on board, I made it my first priority to know what those good points were, and to be able to use them to the ultimate benefit of the team, and also make myself look good at the same time. The second thing was, I realised that was the team, my team who actually did the work, I was the manager at I, I allocate the work, I was there as a mentor to help them want to talk over a particular case, I was the only one authority on what happened. But they were the people who actually did the work. And so realising how important your team is, was a very important thing I thought. The other thing, and I think we've talked about this as well, as I said a moment ago, you can't pick your team. So you get a whole variety of different people. 

On my team, there were people who have different abilities, you will get different things you will not say good different things. And other people in different pay grades, I had a selection of people on three fours, fives and sixes. So I had to it was all part of the fabric that made up my team. So it's knowing how to make that work, I think, yeah, no, just get downloads had a moment ago being good resource manager.

Claire Manning 21:16

Yeah, that's one thing that you've actually sort of, really, when we've talked to mentees that are in supervisory roles or diversity inclusion, it's one of those things that you have stressed and especially with your experience, and yeah, there are sometimes tricky relationships between supervisors and their staff or their teams. And yeah, more supervisors need to recognize what you do. If the team's happy, it makes you look good.

Peter Granleese 21:41

It was, I realized that to survive as a supervisor, I had to have a good team.

Claire Manning 21:48

And with your experience, that didn't matter. It helped a bit because of your vision impairment. But even if you hadn't had the vision impairment, you would have needed that focus as well, when you

Peter Granleese 21:58

All good teams need that focus. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, well, one of the problems is team leaders have never counted a vision impaired person before. When they do it for the first time. They just don't know how to handle the situation. There is a reticence out there in workplaces born by ignorance, I use the word ignorance in a kind way. It's just people just don't know. You just don't know what to do. And the default position seems to be if they can't see if they can't do it. And we have have to turn that around in some way. But of course, if a person has gone through university and has the qualifications, has the computing skills, they're working in a paperless offices these days, they can do the job, usually, without much problem.

Claire Manning 22:46

Yeah. And I think there needs to be more recognition of that. And as I've sort of said to add to that is that when we talk to diversity inclusion teams, they didn't need to be convinced, know that people with a vision impairment, were going to make a valuable employer,

Peter Granleese 23:01

Once you talk to them, it's easy to get them on side, but initial problem and getting them on side in the first place. I may say that the thing are greatly improved since I joined the public services. But we still have a little way to go yet to say that.

Claire Manning 23:16

And I suppose what I wanted to add to that was that these diversity inclusion teams, you know, if there had to be a little bit more funding for something, funding was always restrictive. And they had to make a really good argument. So sort of lower levels of leadership worked really well. And then higher levels, the further they got away. But the people who were signing the checks, were a bit more reluctant. But I think, to your point, Peter, that they had not experienced someone with a vision impairment. So there are a couple of levels away from their diversity inclusion team. Plus they hadn't met someone with a vision impairment. They were being told by the government to cut costs. And so they're in a bit of a bind, but they're not. They don't open themselves up to find out more. And then the other one was, sometimes there's great leaders in there. And because they're great leaders, they move into another position, which isn't helpful for the Great, yeah, but isn't helpful for the person with a vision impairment who's really got a good working relationship with their boss, but hopefully, if they've picked up stuff from in the inclusion space and accessibility space, hopefully that's been passed on elsewhere. 

Peter Granleese 24:26

So I think most most government departments seem to have inclusion people in them, but the trouble here is, seems to be a bit of a big turnover in in this area. And we know a situation where we'll come in person knows nothing about creating a diverse and inclusive place, but we've got her on side, and she's got in there and and made a difference and left the job so and the next person knows nothing about it.

Claire Manning 24:57

Yeah. And we've also had someone who had a real A supportive boss, who works with us in the mentoring program in a range of areas. And then that boss is gone. So she's now got to educate her new boss to go, this is a worthwhile initiative. And you're absolutely right in the time that we've been there. In that first year, we worked with about nine different diversity inclusion teams, and half of those people have moved to different roles by the end of the year. So it's, we're hoping they took what they learned from us to other places. But in regards to there being consistency, and a real as you were talking about sort of that real knowledge once you left the workplace, that corporate knowledge gets lost again, and everyone has to be trained up

again and things like that.

So as I mentioned at the start of our podcast, one of our checklist series is called inclusive leadership, mentor insights. And while Peter has touched on a few stories and things from his perspective, I'm going to share the leadership strengths to build strong, diverse teams. Some of this will sound familiar to any sort of leadership program, but they have got insights that are directly linked to people with a vision impairment and supporting them in their roles. So good interpersonal skills mean listening to the person understand practical implications of their vision impairment for their role, good human resource management skills, and Peter talked in detail about this, about understanding what the person with a vision impairment can do, rather than concentrating on areas that they might not be able to work in. Set the right example to the team relate to the individual in a manner that is professional, respectful, empathetic, flexible, and maintains confidentiality, and treat them like everyone else on the team. Be willing to make workplace adjustments. We call them workplace adjustments, not reasonable adjustments, because everyone who works on your team may need some workplace adjustments. 

Be aware of and respond to IT system issues for all your team, there may be a few extra ones for someone with a vision impairment they might not be. And successful leaders are approachable and like people. As mentioned in some of our discussions, we sometimes with technical people who are highly skilled in their jobs, into people management roles, and this sometimes doesn't work. So a key to being a good inclusive leader is to like people. The mentor team also understood through their discussions with the organisations we work with that there are leadership challenges. And here are some areas where managers, supervisors and team leaders could do better. Learn more, change, adapt individual perceptions and limit assumptions. As Peter has shares in his experiences through our podcast series, people often think if you can't see something you can't do much. And that is a wrong assumption. Pay more attention to job design, innovate and strengthen your understanding on how duties and responsibilities can be assigned. And you'll find it quite easy to adapt roles for people with a vision impairment to do deal directly with a person who has a vision impairment. 

So ensure that if difficulties arise in the relationship, involve your employee with a vision impairment in the process of finding the best solutions. Don't be risk averse. Take time to think about or even attempt new approaches, proposed before immediately deciding that a suggestion would not work, model diversity and inclusion daily and not just on a few days of the year when there's a significant event. attract people to your organization that understand disability, acknowledge their lived experience, and be open to what they observe and suggest. Hopefully, these ideas will help people build their inclusive leadership skills, and it's available on the Canberra Blind Society websight. Thank you.