The future of disability storytelling

[00:00:00] Bedelia Lowrenčev: Accessible Arts acknowledges the traditional custodians of the land on which we work, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to elders past and present and recognise their enduring connection to this land, its culture, and its communities. We honour the long history of storytelling, cultural exchange, and artistic expression that has flourished here for thousands of years.

Personally, I would like to acknowledge disabled and Deaf First Nations people. Always was, always will be.

Hello and welcome to Access Ideas and Insights podcast brought to you by Accessible Arts. I'm Bedelia Lowrenčev and I'll be your host for the next six episodes. For any Accessible Arts fans out there, you might have guessed that this podcast was developed as an extension of our Access Ideas and Insights hybrid series.

That means we're keeping the bold conversations going, diving into fresh ideas, and tackling the big questions around access and inclusion across the art sector. Each episode I'll be joined by leading experts, including artists with disability to cultural sector influencers. This podcast is a new initiative for Accessible Arts, and from the start, access has been at the core of its creation.

As part of this development, we've worked closely with the Deaf advisory group to ensure this series is reaching our audiences. Each episode will be released with a transcript, Auslan video, and captions. Accessible Arts acknowledges access is a place of learning. So, throughout this series, we'll continue to develop the access for the podcast so that we can be a catalyst for change within the arts and cultural sector.

This episode contains themes of ableism, medical trauma, marginalisation, isolation, mental health.

This episode dives into an exciting theme, the future of disability storytelling. We are joined by two fantastic guests, each bringing a unique perspective to this conversation. First up, we have Christopher Bryant, an award-winning playwright, performer, and educator here to share his insights from a creative and artistic lens.

Then we'll hear from Bria McCarthy, Wiradjuri writer and director for theater, literature, film, and education with a specialty in experimental shadow puppetry. Let's start the conversation off with Chris.

Welcome Chris.

[00:02:49] Christopher Bryant: Thank you for having me.

[00:02:50] Bedelia Lowrenčev: Chris, you have quite an extensive experience in theatre making, in performance art, in space making. I would also chuck in there. Um, you also have a fancy preach too. You chucked in there too, as a storyteller. Um, how do you see perspective in agency? In storytelling and ultimately the greater question of who tells the story and how it's told?

[00:03:15] Christopher Bryant: Yeah, it's an interesting, uh, conversation i, I think around sort of representation and, and like as you said, like the honesty of who's telling whose story. I don't know that it'll ever actually be like, okay, we're all agreed. It's all okay. Everyone can say this story or they can't, or, you know, I think my opinion of, of that question, or my answer to that question rather has changed as my career has gone on and you know, I've, i'm a queer person, I have acquired disability um, and that really shifted the perspective of a lot of things for me. Um, I think towards the start of my career I was very much of the, anyone can tell anyone's story, you just gotta do it right. You gotta do research and stuff. And I think that tracks true to an extent.

Um, but I think there is that, that wider sort of question that is almost becoming. Uh, a reckoning. I, I, I think of people you know of. Yeah. As you said, who gets to tell whose story? I, I think that having own voices stories, honestly, to me, I, I find them almost always better because, uh, they're, they're, they're more authentic. They have that honesty and that truth of that person. Um, and I mean, I'm coming at it from, you know, a queer person with a disability, but not just for queerness or for disability. I think for any sort of, uh, specific community that one is a part of, there is so much more, uh, honesty and, and truth and detail, uh, and interest in the stories that people tell of, of their community, if that makes sense.

[00:04:51] Bedelia Lowrenčev: Yeah, it makes total sense. It makes me consider though, when it comes to, you know, those specific communities telling their story. Um, what is the urgency in telling our stories? Like, why should we be telling our stories now? Why should we be telling them to people outside our communities?

I'm just curious 'cause I think around the future of disability storytelling, um, I feel like there's an. Ongoing discussion about who the story is for and why do we so urgently need to be telling disabled specific, or I guess in your specific case of the intersecting between queer disabled, why is there an urgency and why should we be telling stories to people not within our community?

[00:05:37] Christopher Bryant: It reminds me a bit actually of these discussions that happened quite a few years ago, and I think they're still happening, just not as much, uh, around, um, queerness and trans representation in film and straight actors taking away roles from, from, from gay people. Um, so obviously that's a specific thing that is not maybe a hundred percent relevant to what we're talking about, but there was a thing of, you know, anyone should be able to play, anyone or anyone should be able to tell anyone's story. And this kind of thing of, you know, everyone, everything is fair game. And it’s sort of like, okay, I think that is a legitimate answer. If we had had the same experiences and we'd had the same opportunities and we'd been considered, but we hadn't and we haven't. So, the, I think the, the question almost is like, why does a non-disabled playwright need to write a disabled story? If it's because they are deeply embedded in that world, uh, and they are, you know, maybe writing it with a disabled playwright, or they are, you know, using a community arts cultural development framework to, uh, to allow those stories come to life, great.

But if it's because. You, you want to do the next curious incident of the dog in the nighttime, and you don't even comprehend why that isn't like offensive narrative that's been written by, you know, a playwright who very publicly was like, oh, didn't do any research, I don't care. Like, you know, that then that's a sort of an another thing.

[00:07:08] Bedelia Lowrenčev: Mm.

[00:07:08] Christopher Bryant: Um, so I, I guess for me, the importance of us telling our own stories, A. Yeah. It's because they're, they're gonna be more realistic representations and so therefore the, the play and the narrative itself will bring truer. But I think also it's you know, it, it fights against this idea that, uh, I, I wish that I could remember the percentage, but I don't. But, you know, disabled people, we we're everywhere we exist, you know, or trans people exist, or queer people exist, or, you know, whatever, you know, marginalisation, you wanna say, we all exist and we are here. Uh, and to just say, well, no, why do we need to hear your stories? That's stupid. You know, it's, it's, it's, you can't be what you can't see.

So, it's, it's really great to be able to see other stories there because people get inspired by that. They, they think Maybe I could write a play or maybe I could make a film, or do you know any of these things, which everyone should be able to if they want to.

[00:08:04] Bedelia Lowrenčev: Totally. I get what you mean, how, you know, the importance for continuing to push our presence within the arts is because of exactly it has real world consequences. It does inform policy. Um, you know, it informs just our livelihoods, not just our artistic pursuits. Um, I'm very curious, especially someone that embodies the intersection of queerness and disability. What are the sort of like tensions, expectations and self-perception you explore and maybe an example of a work that you've explored that in?

[00:08:37] Christopher Bryant: Yeah, of course. Uh, so one that I think is particularly precedent in my mind, maybe 'cause I've just started re-rehearsing, it actually, uh, is this show that I made with my collaborator, uh, Emma Palackic. It's called New Balance. Um, and so it kind of is directly about the queer disabled experience. Um, so this performance kind of work uh, so it's not really, you know, it's not like a narrative. Um, it's a whole bunch of, of scenes, some of them that have, you know, from my life, some of them that are from Emma's life. Um, and then we had, uh, a whole bunch of, uh, audio recorded interludes from other, uh, people who sit at that intersection of queerness and disability. Um, to just try and give a, a map of like. You know what it is like.

Yeah. So, I think with, with New Balance in particular, you know, it really embraced sort of the sort of nineties, eighties like queer, uh, club culture kind of thing. And, you know, big like Haring, Keith Haring, who also, uh, as someone with uh, HIV AIDS could be conceivably said at that intersection of queerness and disability if he had wanted to, I dunno, I can't speak, you know, he's sadly not with us, uh, but sort of, you know, big of brash kind of things, kind of projections and designs and this kind of thing. But it was sort of, it sort of was taking this, this queer aesthetic and then trying to, uh, to add disability, like in the design for, for a way.

So, you know, we, um, made sure that basically every, every show was a relaxed performance so that there wasn't a, a relaxed performance. That just was how it was if you were coming into this space.

[00:10:14] Bedelia Lowrenčev: I feel like something that's continuing to pop up with your work is this ability to be kind of challenging and flipping in its head perceptions of things.

Um, I think definitely. Yeah, there's a sort of evidence of this very intentional play with perspective, and I'm very curious, you know, why is this practice important to you in disability storytelling?

[00:10:36] Christopher Bryant: It's really interesting because I sort of have these two practices that kind of go parallel to each other.

One that is a more traditional playwriting practice, um, where I sort of engage with disability a, a bit. Um, but, the more it's just, you know, theatre. Um, and then this sort of other practice, the side practice, um, or what, what started as a side practice and then has now sort of continued to have legs, which is great. Um, of these kind of contemporary performance pieces, which is New Balance, which was this other show that I had this year with Brand X State of Play and that I sort of make with, with Emma Palackic who is also queer and disabled. So, we sort of, we think really similarly about a lot of things. We have kind of an interest in self-reflection.

I don't know that it was ever super conscious. I'm not trained as a performer or as a, you know, that's not really been a, I would do it sometimes, uh, like kind of fun, but, you know, not, you know, not NIDA trained or VCA trained or anything like that.

But, uh, so, so I, I have a, an acquired brain injury. Um, I was hit by a car in 2014. Um, and out of that, when I was in hospital, uh, the doctor was like, oh, by the way, you probably just never write again. I was there being like, what do you mean? Um, and I was like, no, absolutely not. I, I, like, I'll show you. And so, I wrote all of this, like hand wrote all of this stuff while in hospital. That was looking back, bit nonsensical, you know, quite the, the, the rantings of someone who is brain injured, you know, doesn't really know what's going on. Um, but I ended up sort of developing those, those writings into this sort of post-traumatic play. Um, that I was also in. Uh, and that went really well. In fact, it went so well that it, uh, it was in the Midsummer Festival 2016, sold really, really well, like actually quite proud of, of some of the writing that I did.

So, from that, uh, Emma and I developed, carved out this sort of shorter show, like the play version was like 90 minutes. The, the shorter show was like 45, 50. And sort of what we worked at was the through line of it was my experience of, of hospital and of, of coming to terms with disability and, and it just sort of, it sort of naturally formed as we pieced it all together.

Um, and then I guess from that, I. It wasn't maybe a conscious decision of like, we are gonna make the show about my time in hospital and disability rah rah rah, but it just sort of evolved out of that way. Um, and because of what it was, this kind of contemporary performance thing, it allowed me to be much more honest and upfront in this kind of performance lecture kind of space I was able to be like, hi. Let's talk about trauma. I drank to alcoholic levels for several years and then I got hit by a car and now I'm this, you know? Um, so in a way, because it was so, the, the nature and the form of it allowed me to be quite upfront.

[00:13:37] Bedelia Lowrenčev: Yeah. I feel like it's refreshing to hear you talking about how yeah, there isn't this like intention to you flip, you know, the perspective you're just sharing the raw experience and inherently that is going to be a new perspective. Um, I'm curious though, because you know, you talk about trauma, I feel like you explore kind of those yeah, bit like crunchy areas of taboo and making your audiences a bit uncomfortable. Um, and I'm curious about like, you know, how do we push taboo without sensationalising it?

Like who are these taboos for and ultimately are we sharing it for community to feel seen or are we sharing it for non-disabled audiences as an education point?

[00:14:19] Christopher Bryant: Very loaded question. Very good. Um, yes. Well, it's interesting because, so, okay, the first show that Emma and I made, the one that I just talked about, I should have named it, was called Intoxication. Um, so with Intoxication, uh, that ran from about 2015 to 2019, like mid-2019. Um, and in my mind, the only successful, I wouldn't say good, but the only to truly successful version of that show was the one that we did in 2019. Um. That was because there's a difference between a therapy session and a piece of performance.

Um, and it wasn't until, uh, I did this mentorship with Nicola Gunn, um, and at the sort of coming towards the end of the mentorship, she was like, is there anything else you want me to look at? Um, and then we're like, oh, like this got, got a season coming up. Just do a run of the show. And she was like, great, sweet. So, we did it. And she just gave this feedback, which was like actually really great, where it's just like, look yes, this is really great, but I also feel like you are kind of yelling at me and I feel like you're sort of, you'd haven't established a framework too, for an audience to feel safe.

And I was like, oh shit. No, I haven't. Um, and like, you know, a half an hour feedback session, like changed the show completely in terms of like, be just, just, you know, putting things in in place to be like, cool, what I'm talking about is the thing. And there was violence and a lot of internalised ableism. I'm fine now. But we're gonna go to some places that are a bit traumatic. Even we're thinking about, uh, New Balance and then this, this other show that we did with Brand X, uh, State of Play. Both of those were really good and there was much more of a sort of framework. Uh, but even still, people would be like, oh, thank you so much for telling me about, I didn't know anything about that, but, um, that's a much better, you know, that was like, that's more of a, oh, thank you, you've, you've raised some things and I can engage with them and, and you've given me the, the space. Because also I think part of what we were conscious of in making both of those two shows, um, was that, it was an exploration, but it wasn't yelling. It wasn't like, it wasn't being like the way that you, you, you have like ableist tendencies because you've absorbed all these ableist messages from an ableist society.

And it was, it was a, you know, self-reflection and a bit of like, oh, you know, hey, things aren't always great. Hey, all of these things are problems. But it was more of a, like an invitation to engage.

[00:16:59] Bedelia Lowrenčev: I think it's really nice to hear you talking about, I guess, the concept of risk. And I think as well, it's quite useful to understand that it's a process, um, especially, you know, when you are wanting to talk about your marginalisation, especially, you know, in this case, disability.

Um. Yeah. How do we exactly not relive trauma? How do we educate and share, but do it in a way that's, um, inherently crip in culture? You know, not so much the medicalised framework of what disability is and the narrative there. I think it's really cool to hear how you've kind of navigated going from almost, yeah, setting up what society expects us and how they expect us to tell our story. And yeah, you're learning that actually cripness is understanding that it's an invitation for others to come into the space and learn and feel cared for, but also, you know, somewhat challenged and equally as well, you as a performer and sharing your story, the risk you offer and navigate by sharing your story.

Um, I think that's really beautiful to hear. 'cause I feel like sometimes, uh, emerging artists, we are not, you know, and they're not sure how to navigate that because, exactly, they don't see their, for lack of a word, a predecessors who are yeah challenging and experimenting and realising that yeah, there's a nuance between, you know, sharing our stories and not reliving them in a way that harms us or harms our audiences.

Chris, with all your experience in storytelling, um, and especially, a variety of forms of storytelling. I'm curious at your advice that you would give for artists that are the future of disability storytelling?

[00:18:47] Christopher Bryant: Yeah. I think that we're actually at an exciting time in terms of, uh, disability storytelling. I, I think there's, it's starting to be much more, uh prescient in the spotlight, whatever we wanna say. Then it was even in 20 14, 20 15 when I acquired my own disability. But I think that hopefully this change continues to, to grow and to change things and change people's perspectives. Um, and, and out of that, that it engenders young artists to engage with their own stories more and to be like, there is space for me, there is time for me. There is, you know, it's, this is something that I, if I want to do it yeah, absolutely. If you wanna go perform your show, perform your show, like there's no reason why you shouldn't. Yeah. I, I, I, I think that, you know, it sort of multiplies like the gremlins or something like that. You know, I, I, I, I like that, you know, not just me, that like there are so many other disabled makers who across art forms, who do amazing work and I just wanna see more disabled work. I hope that this continues to grow. I hope that this inspires more people to engage with their own, you know, experience, whatever that experience may be, and that they feel that like empowered that they can actually engage with their own story. I hope that, that as a result of there being more shows that more, uh, theatres, more producing companies more X, Y, Z, whatever you wanna say, that they, everyone steps up to the plate more.

Um, because we do need more access. We do need more, uh, you know. There, you know, there was, um, I always think of the first, uh, version of New Balance that we performed where we had closed captioning the whole time, um, along with the protections and everything. Um, and that was like, we, you know, it feels we just wanna make this as accessible as possible. It was just me putting some stuff into PowerPoint. We did it, and one of the first review that we got was like, I don't understand why there was captioning. And I was sort of like, babe, you don't understand why there's captioning for the show, that was like quite directly about disability. Why? Okay. Um, so I guess I hope that, you know, more people do understand why there's captioning or Auslan or relaxed performances or tactile, you know, tours or all of these things.

I hope that they continue to get absorbed into the mainstream and that that's in a positive way in a, in a way where, you know, it's the whole thing of like, universal access it's actually for everyone. It's not just for us. I think for artists as well, the most important thing is when you're engaging with your own story to find, to find members of your community too, to tell it with, um, what, like, I've learned so much about myself and my disability through these shows, through Intoxication, New Balance, and State Of Play.

Um but I was able to do that and to engage with the, that really because of my collaborator, Emma. Um, because I was like, I have this amazing person who I really respect as an artist, who is one of my best friends, who is also queer, is also disabled. And we just get it. Um, and you know, we understand, oh, cool maybe it's bad. Maybe, you know, maybe we're tired today. Maybe this, maybe that. So, I think there is, you know, that can't also be understated is finding people, whatever that may looks like for you. Finding people who will support you in telling your own story and creating a space where it can go be performed ideally.

[00:22:29] Bedelia Lowrenčev: Hmm. Yeah. I relate so much that I think, um, yeah, it's such a good reminder that yeah, no one's gonna get you that community. Um, and yeah, storytelling, and I guess also, um. I think as well, like further releasing society from a set narrative of what disability is will come through those sort of collaborations.

Chris, our time's up. It's been a hoot though, talking to you. Um, can I just quickly, I think I just wanna a quick plug of like, what's the next thing coming up for you that we can see or listen to? What can we engage with? What's coming up on your plate?

[00:23:06] Christopher Bryant: Well, if you're in, uh, lake Macquarie in September, I think New Balance is gonna be performed there. Um, so that'll be a fun time. Um, and then this, the show ‘State Of Play’. I mean, it's the thing of we want it to happen and I think it will happen. We're just not really sure. When, where, or how yet?

[00:23:25] Bedelia Lowrenčev: Thank you, Chris. It's been so nice to chat with you.

[00:23:28] Christopher Bryant: Thank you. Thank you very much.

[00:23:34] Bedelia Lowrenčev: Now let's move on to chatting with Bria McCarthy, writer and director for theatre, literature, film and education with a specialty in experimental shadow puppetry. Bria is also a proud Wiradjuri woman.

Bria, thank you so much for coming in today. I am so excited to talk to you.

[00:23:53] Bria McCarthy: Thank you so much for having me.

[00:23:55] Bedelia Lowrenčev: Um, I guess. I'm a big fan of yours and I think the rest of the world needs to know how fabulous you are. Um, you work in so many different forms and I feel like so much of that is an experimentation, um, is like relatively risk taking.

[00:24:11] Bria McCarthy: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:11] Bedelia Lowrenčev: Um, and I'm curious about how these sort of new forms like puppetry expand the possibilities for disabled narratives.

[00:24:19] Bria McCarthy: Yeah. Um, well, I guess you're right. The first part of it is that my practice is so jack of all trades at the moment and it kind of crosses over so many different art forms. And I think that in itself is kind of a testament to the AuDHD experience. I'm very deeply obsessed, but in many different ways.

Um. And yeah, I've been exploring puppetry for about five years now. Uh, it started during the pandemic when we were all locked inside and I started playing with bits of cardboard and from there, yeah, I've really found a wonderful way to connect, not only with disabled experiences, but also with non-human experiences. And I'm really trying to build like a hyper empathetic, hyper imaginative practice through that. So, the possibilities are endless.

[00:25:08] Bedelia Lowrenčev: I love that. I think, um, what's beautiful about it, I think, you know, that jack of all trades like your own multidisciplinary practice, um, and as well exactly that approach of being very like uninhibited with what you're exploring and why you're exploring, I feel like is a great attitude towards disability. I feel like it flows into that culture so beautifully.

I was very curious though, with the role of non-human representation, um, how does, like puppetry and abstraction.

[00:25:37] Bria McCarthy: Mm,

[00:25:37] Bedelia Lowrenčev: How can that explore disability beyond realism?

[00:25:42] Bria McCarthy: Yes, this is my favourite. Anything beyond realism! I think realism is so suburban and containing. It um, really presents such a narrow, limited view of what reality can be. And it also, a erase so much, uh, of the mystery or the magic of what we're kind of living around all the time. And so, my practice is very much, um, centered around principles that I have about creating like a, a more than human artistic experience, a more than human theatre convention. Um, meaning that it extends into the lives of non-humans, animals. And I guess, um, there is a lot of crossover between that empathy and the empathy we can show in disability arts and. Yeah, I mean I use shadow puppetry a lot, and so that means it can be very shape shifty, very dreamy, very, uh, anything is possible.

And so, I've kind of worked with lately images of like dogs and cats flying in the sky on balloons and stuff like that. Um, so it's a great place like I think to explore possibilities of life. Beyond the kind of cardboard cutout of realism. I guess also it's in a way been accessible. When I was training in 2019, I was kind of coming up against this urge to make really absurd and experimental work. And I, I thought I was being Brechtian. I realise now I was just being really autistic. I just wanted to present humans in the way that I was kind of seeing them, or that I was kind of wishing to see them on stage. And I was directing actors in a kind of animatronic way, to be honest. I'd be like stopping so like a person about it. Just be more, more one dimensional, something easy for me to look at and process. And when I found puppets, I kind of realised this is the language that I've been trying to speak through my whole practice. So, puppets like, can be so much in that way because they're actors we don't have to make eye contact with and they can express, um, so much more than realism.

[00:27:47] Bedelia Lowrenčev: Mm. Yeah. I think it's really great how you talk about how, you know, finding your form is so important for not just self-expression, but as well like your access needs. Um, and I think as well, it's beautifully to hear how access needs actually feed innovation in the arts. Um, I was very curious 'cause you kind of talked about like this paradigm you created for yourself, you know, that philosophy of, you know, non-human experience. It's something beyond human. And I was thinking about how do you, um, navigate, I guess when you get curated for maybe a disabled specific project. How do you navigate your paradigm with like the disability paradigm or like, yeah, maybe not so much, uh, a Crip led paradigm, but potentially like perceived idea of what disability is like.

How do you reach between the middle?

[00:28:38] Bria McCarthy: I'm still grappling with this. It's very much a, gonna be a long journey for me, um, to work out really what it means to be an artist. You have to represent everything that you are when you're an artist. You have to kind of learn how to speak up about it. And so, I haven't found a lot of, uh, harsh criticism about it, but it definitely does look different when I'm in a space with other, um, if I'm in like a festival or anything, like my work will stand out as its own thing.

I think. More than anything I've just found it really connects with neurodivergent kids and it's really, really special. I have done a couple of festival experiences and I've created like really calm, serene, shadow puppet environments and, um, yeah, just the way that I've been able to connect with neurodivergent kids and, and see them have that same effect, like this is this kind of storytelling that kind of creates a sense of flow for them, the same as it does in me. So yeah, I guess we are all doing it in our own way, but like I just keep having to remind myself the only way I can truly do anything at all that's artistic is by being really authentic and not trying to fit any kind of cookie cutter.

It, it, it speaks very much the same to my experience as an Aboriginal artist. I'm still working out how to communicate with people. Who maybe aren't mob themselves that my art is Aboriginal, but it's not gonna look like the fridge magnet or like the, the things you buy in the gift shop. You know, it's, and, and I've had people tell me my work isn't Aboriginal because it has like wizards or any kind of fantasy iconography or anything that's different.

I’m still trying to find a way to communicate that. But baseline is, you've gotta be authentic because you've gotta believe there are other people who wanna see that, who relate to that. And um, yeah. So, when I'm out in like, events doing this work, it, it just really is very rewarding in that way so far.

[00:30:37] Bedelia Lowrenčev: Yeah, totally. I think it's so nice for you to be like, especially pointing out authenticity is key. Um, but especially, I'm so glad to hear that you are. Finding that you just putting yourself as authentically as possible is reaching, connecting. And I think exactly with future of disability storytelling, it's ultimately that the more we allow us to be specific and kind of, you know, deep diving into what makes us part of the disabled community or you know, any form marginalisation is like that's the, you know, that's the, the cherry on top.

[00:31:12] Bria McCarthy: Yeah.

[00:31:12] Bedelia Lowrenčev: Like that's, that is the stuff that connects strongly and creates flow between you and your audience, but also for you and for your audience. Yeah. I'm very curious then, you know, now that you've kind of been engaging quite a bit with like audiences and audiences of a wide like experience and perspective, um, I'm curious about how you navigate audience expectations versus your own artistic innovation and pushing beyond the conventional disability narratives?

[00:31:42] Bria McCarthy: Mm. Um, I, I, I guess I just kind of stumbled through it and I kind of, um, well, almost like annoyingly so push what I want to do. And I've had experiences where mentors or uh, artists who are more experienced than me are telling me to, you know, pull back and do it a certain way, but I guess it comes back to like accommodation. My nervous system wants to work in a certain way and frankly, if I don't work in a certain way, I just won't get outta bed. There is like a certain expectation, people walking into an arts experience that's got the kind of label on a disability arts or Aboriginal arts, um, very much expect a certain attitude, a certain aesthetic as well.

And I mean, I guess in the ways that I naturally will, kind of bring those things up are great, but if it feels unnatural, then I'm just not gonna do it, frankly. And, and at the moment it's, you know, my art is paying the rent, but I've also just gotta be like, very much sticking to my guns, sticking to my interest, my curiosity, and um, you know, I've had some wonderful experiences. Like I played a show at Sydney Fringe and, um, it was more directed towards adults. And so, then I, um, got some wonderful experiences of like neurodivergent, women coming up, crying after the show. And you, you know, you know it's working then even if it's to a small audience.

And so, I'm, I'm just, basically, I'm just gonna do what I wanna do and hope that someone's gonna like it. And if not, I'll get a job, uh, at a bookshop or something.

[00:33:25] Bedelia Lowrenčev: No, I, I get, I love that. And I think that's more messaging we need to be hearing from, like, you know, artists that are thriving if I, dare self-proclaim to you that you are thriving um, no, you're on fire.

Um, but yeah, I think there's just something so beautiful in that like staunch care to yourself and to your community and stories and as well, like resistance. It's just, yeah, really, really great. And I think, you know, if I pull what I pull from inspiration for you, from you that yeah, it's, it's okay to kind of, yeah, exactly like stick to your guns and that disability storytelling is authenticity naturally. But as well, I feel like what you really. Bring to the space is that disability storytelling is curiosity and joy and resistance, and it's not landing in a mold. Yeah. Which sounds easy, but yeah, your work is fantastic.

One more question. It's around intersectionality. We hear that word a lot. It has a lot of meaning to different people. Um, but in the case to do with future storytelling for disability, how do we think narratives can engage with, gender, race and queerness. How do you see that for the future? Just projecting.

[00:34:42] Bria McCarthy: Um, empathetic imagination is kind of really the world that I live in and I find it hard to kind of separate all of these things, especially in 2025, um, when all of our issues seem to be big, giant arrows pointing in the same direction.

Um. And I thrive working with animal imagery and, you know, non-human storytelling. But it's all empathetic imagination. It's, um, putting yourselves into bodies that sense the world differently than your own. And, and there's like the barriers of language. How do we, um, empathetically live in a world with beings, creatures, animals, but also people that don't have access to language. And I think it's a magical thing when you, you can use your imagination to really get across these barriers, these, and create these bridges. For me, that's a place to connect with everyone. But also, to connect with myself very deeply. And then kind of from there, I think we all find that same touch, touchstone

[00:35:44] Bedelia Lowrenčev: Bria, I could just hear you talking all the time. Like that empathetic imagination, like, ugh, that's so juicy. It's just like captures it perfectly. I feel like the entire hope, um, for disability storytelling.

I'd be very curious as well, like what sort of. What sort of legacy do you hope to kind of leave? I know like we are still working and growing, but I would be so excited to hear we talk about the future, but what is the legacy you hope to leave?

[00:36:10] Bria McCarthy: Ah, that is so beautiful. I've never been asked that before, but I actually secretly have big legacy hopes and I don't think I've actually told people about it, but I've been journaling about it since I was like 16.

Um, I wanna create like an art movement that it is multi-species, basically. That kind of encapsulates what I've been talking about, that imaginative space between all of us. And that I wanna, I wanna create work that leaves audiences when they walk out of the building, wherever the show is, or the exhibition or whatever it is, is they, uh, are looking at the lights and the birds and they're realising that the world is so much more alive.

I've kind of had that experience a couple times. You know, when you get these real tingles when you leave, um. And I've just been chasing that ever since. And I think that's the portal to empathy for me, and that's, that was really life changing for me those few times. Um. That I've experienced that with art and so I, yeah, that's like kind of what my legacy, I hope one day would be.

And you know, I'm trying to create these conventions, answer these questions. How do we put non-human bodies in a theatre space, represent them? How do we tell stories? Especially if like all these rule makers are saying things like, don't use anthropomorphism or don't stray too far from science, or. Yeah, I'm, I'm trying to answer these questions and kind of fumble through it, but create a type of theatre that people can recognise as way more alive, expansive, multi-species than the shows that we often pay so much money for. And it's just people talking about a divorce or whatever. The world isn't just people in a room talking, you know, it's birds and its bugs and it's clouds, and so yeah. I'm trying to pass on that kind of framework that I'm kind of living in all the time.

[00:38:02] Bedelia Lowrenčev: I totally agree. And Bria, I really hope anyone listening, everyone listening, takes away your hopes of the legacy of a portal to empathy. I think you really landed it so well about disability storytelling and just arts and existing in general.

Before we wrap up, Bria, I am burning to know. What are you up to now? What? What's the goss on your artistic endeavours?

[00:38:29] Bria McCarthy: Yeah. Well, I am continuing to develop a show that I started with Accessible Arts in the next level mentorship, I'm creating a show called Animal Dreams. That's kind of a working title. We'll see if it sticks. Um, but it kind of goes into the question of what do animals dream about when they're going to sleep? Um, there's a lot of scientific consensus about whether or not animals dream. And to me it's fairly obvious, um, that they do dream. And so, I'm kind of taking it to the next step. Like what are they dreaming of? What are those dreams look like? And, um, trying my best to extend it into bodies that, you know, what would an animal that sees colour differently than I dream of? What would underwater animals dream of?

And, um. Yeah, I've been reading a lot about it. It's so interesting, like the ways, uh, birds when they're asleep at night are practicing their songs in their head, um, as their babies when they're learning bird songs. I was also reading this morning about how animals experience nightmares and PTSD and like lab rats or like just going through it basically. I won't go into detail, but I was doing some pretty harrowing reading on that this morning.

I'm trying to find like a more extended puppetry language. So I am, um, pretty confident with shadow puppetry. I wanna make paper mâché clay heads and figures and ghost-like puppets. And, um, oh my gosh, it's so hard. There's a, at the moment, there's a bit of a gap between I think my aesthetic tastes, my ambitions and my actual sculpting skillsets. So, I'm like trying to sculpt these animal heads and I'm asking like. Well, it doesn't have to be a perfect one-to-one representation, but more what would this animal look like in a dream?

You know, like the funny ways we can dream and misremember things and see an old friend, but they've got a different face. Or when I dream of my little brother, he's 19 now, but he's always two years old in my dreams.

Um, and yeah, I'm kind of interested in those topsy-turvy worlds. Like I have a story that I'm working on about a dog. You follow the dog into their dream and the dog takes themselves on a walk and it's like through this very strange, twisted world, and they're encountering other dogs, but they're kind of misremembering what other dogs look like. So it's like a three-headed dash hound that's like trying to kill them.

Um, and so yeah, this show I'm hoping will be like super imaginative and broad in that kind of animal scape, dream scape way. Yeah. It's a really exciting project and you know, it's a, it's a dream space. I'm kind of dreaming everything at the moment, focusing a lot on sleep. And, um, yeah, it's been really fun. I'm really excited. But there's a, there's so, so much more to do.

[00:41:15] Bedelia Lowrenčev: Mm. I think it's so wonderful that you're able to share the process because I feel like so many artists just think that this all happens in like one night. Yeah. And it's done.

[00:41:23] Bria McCarthy: I wish.

[00:41:24] Bedelia Lowrenčev: Yeah.

[00:41:24] Bria McCarthy: I wish did. I wish it did.

[00:41:27] Bedelia Lowrenčev: But I also love that you're prioritising sleep. Yeah. Like that's such, rest is resistance, y'all. You know what I mean?

[00:41:32] Bria McCarthy: Yeah absolutely.

[00:41:34] Bedelia Lowrenčev: You're doing, you're doing so much in what you say, just what breeds like Crip culture, um, and. I'm so excited to see your future projects.

[00:41:43] Bria McCarthy: Well, thank you very much.

[00:41:44] Bedelia Lowrenčev: Thank you so much for your time.

[00:41:46] Bria McCarthy: Thank you, Bedelia. This has been wonderful.

[00:41:52] Bedelia Lowrenčev: That's a wrap on this episode of Access Ideas and Insights. This podcast is proudly produced by Accessible Arts and Kiera Brew Kurec with sound design by Tralala Blip. Access consulting was provided by Macro Impact Consulting and our advisory group. We also thank our Auslan interpreters. This podcast series is proudly supported by the City of Sydney in Create New South Wales, the principal funding partner of Accessible Arts.