Attitudes - about disability - episode 6

Angel 00:01

Welcome to the Attitudes podcast. This podcast is the brainchild of Attitude Foundation and Northcott to chat about attitudes about disability. In 2021, the University of Melbourne published a nationwide survey on Australia's attitudes on disability, which will be the focal point of our season one.

I'm your host, Angel Dixon. I'm a person with disability. I dedicate my time to furthering the inclusion of people with disability. I'm a model and the former CEO of Attitude Foundation. In an effort to bring life to the numbers in the survey, each week I'll be joined by current and former board members and one friend of Attitude Foundation to discuss one of the survey's findings.

This is part two of my chat with Joanna Garvin. If you haven't listened to part one, go back. Because we don't have much to go on about why this statistic exists, it's hard to, you know, break it down further, but I think we can kind of throw it around a bit.

Angel 00:58

I think that when people without disability consider a person with disability's life trajectory, they, and they're even their own, they see key milestones. So, you know, like finishing a degree, meeting a partner, getting married, having babies, you know, all those kinds of milestones. And I think what happens in their brain is that they consider that, oh, people with disability can't do those things. What do you have to say about that?

Joanna 01:38

I think that's not true and I mean I know in my own life, yes things do take me a bit longer but I do get there in the end and I think that again people with disabilities have every right to choose the kind of things they want to do in their life and achieve and we can achieve those all those milestones if we want to yes it may take a bit of time more than other able -bodied people and that's something that I've spoken to my friends with disabilities about a lot like maybe for some people meeting a partner might take a bit longer or the bleeding obvious like getting into the workforce but we get there we get there in the end it may take a bit longer and finding a source of support or finding our tribe the people we want to spend time with it takes a bit longer but we get there and I think also another friend of mine said to me another great piece of advice she said we're on our own timeline and that's okay and I mean I know for me I'm still learning that because I've realized this year that I'm a very impatient person I need to be a bit more patient.

Angel 03:15

You sound incredibly patient. You always come across as so mindful. I would never have guessed that you were impatient.

Joanna 03:23

It’s something that I've been working on this year, let me tell you, but yeah, and I just, I really believe that, like everybody else, that we want to do something, of course we can do it. We find a way, we adapt, we find people to help us, and I just really believe that, yes, again, I feel like I'm a broken record, but it's so true in the fact that if we want to do something, it may take a bit longer than other people, but who cares, we get there in the end, and that's certainly been, for me, that's what's happened, and I think it will just continue, and that's okay, because it's all about timing, I really believe as well.

Angel 04:17

I want to give those 22% of people some things to combat their perspective. So can you give me, like, how many people with disability do you know that are in long -term relationships?

Joanna 04:32

I think I know 10, 10 people, I know two people with, no, three people with kids, I know a CEO, I know film directors, oh no sorry, I know 11 people with kids, sorry 11 people and I know a few CEOs, I know quite a few Paralympians, I know a singer, I know an actor, I know quite a few actors…who else do I know, I know quite a few successful tennis players and so many people achieving different things in their lives that I look up to and that I constantly ask for advice and I try to model myself on in the way that they conduct themselves in the world and yeah just look to them for advice so there are so many, I'm going to stop myself and say lucky but I'm fortunate that I do know so many people with disabilities that are incredibly successful with kids and who are living great lives and making huge amounts of money you know and just doing what they want to do and yeah continually building their own lives.

Angel 06:19

I think it's really powerful to combat those points of view. So thank you, because that's huge. I read an article the other day about how when you're in your 30’s, once you hit your 30’s, that's pretty much it. Like you're stuck with the people in your friend group and you're pretty much just kind of on a decline from there. It's rare to make new friends post 30. I don't feel like that's true for me. I feel like what you were saying about how, you know, it has almost made you more outgoing. Having to make your own destiny along the way. I feel like one of my goals in my life is to make sure that I have a community around me, because I am, you know, I can kind of lean towards an introverted kind of space, but, you know, it makes me happy in my brain to have people around me.

And so, you know, like I'm over 30 and I'm still making new friends and I'm the person that comes up to you at the dog park. And I'm like, hi, I just live down the road. Where do you live?

Angel 07:37

That's a great way to meet people. And so it's it's interesting, you know, those skill sets that came through in your bio. Yes, you went to university. Yes, you were afforded all these opportunities because you, you know, you feel like you fit into this particular group of people that sometimes get these opportunities. But there's something to be said for the social and kind of incidental skills built along the way. They give us so much to look forward to. You know, they're skills that we hold for the rest of our lives, and it's true of anyone, but I think it really is very true for people with disability.

Joanna 08:26

Yeah and I think also I think one of the great things for us is that we really appreciate the small wins as well more than other people. I mean I know I do like the fact you know even just putting my shoes on some days it's that's a small win for me or you know I'm getting out the door on time so that's also been a really great thing too but yeah socially it's a really interesting thing as well and it's something that I've been reflecting on too because I think for a long time I really did things so certain people would like me but I've realised that no my true friends would just like me for me like I don't have to do anything different or try to act differently around them to be their friend and yeah the social side of things is so interesting and just I think that was really big for me particularly when I left school and was really given the opportunity to build my own friendship groups because my friendship groups at school they were a bit tricky and it's a kind of that thing of where you're kind of forced to be with people that you wouldn't necessarily want to so being an adult and now being afforded the choice of okay I want to hang out with these people I don't want to and that's fine like it's great having that sense of autonomy too and I think that's something too that I really appreciate as a person with a disability having that sort of choice in who I want in my life and who I don't as well and who I ask for advice and yeah that's an interesting one the social side and just that sort of and I know you would feel like this too the sort of sense of community that you feel not only in the disabled community but when you really find people that align with your values and who you are it's great

Angel 11:05

We've talked about feeling lucky and grateful, we've done all that, I think now we could probably talk to the actual mechanics of it and talk about what you think about quotas, how you see the landscape of inclusion in your industry and whether you feel that it's on the right trajectory or the gaps you would consider filling.

Joanna 11:36

To start off with quotas I do like them and I do think that they're important but at the same time I'm also conscious of the fact that when you have quotas I'd be worried about that whole tick the box exercise and and just giving someone an opportunity because you know it fits that but I do think it's important because it reminds the industry that you know you do need to include people with disabilities and I also really feel like we are on the right track because you know we're seeing so much more representation on screen like looking at stuff like special on Netflix or all these different characters we're seeing on screen but I do think that there's so much more we can do like I think that for example I really saw this on Penguin Bloom that the leadership that were in charge of this film so Glen and the producers at Made Up Stories they really enforced the fact that they wanted to be inclusive and they wanted to have people with disabilities not only Sam Bloom but people with disabilities involved in the whole creative process and I really saw what an impact strong leadership had in enforcing that and helping people be mindful of that and actively include people and I really think that gate keepers have a responsibility to do that in terms of leadership and reminding the industry that they do have responsibility I also think that it would be great to see more funding opportunities given to mid year mid career creatives living with disability because I think yes it's great that there are so many opportunities for emerging filmmakers but what about those who are more established how can we keep them keep the momentum going not only in terms of telling stories about the lived experience with disabilities but just telling stories and having meaningful opportunities in the industry and also not just meaningful like just where their skills and expertise are really utilized and I think there's so much yes we've made huge inroads with inclusion of people with disabilities but there's so much more we can do like I'd really love to hear more emerging voices out there I'd love to see again more programs aimed at mid career creatives I would love to see more just more people with disabilities given opportunities to be in senior roles within the industry not just writers but the whole gamut of responsibilities so yeah there's always so much we can do but I think it's a really exciting time and it's just up to us to keep advocating and I think also what I'd say too is that it's up to the individual as well like I really learned that you got to get in people's faces and and I also I got a really great piece of advice from someone from a friend of mine who said you've got to be politely pushy you know and and that's so true because as you know Angel it's not about what you know it's who you know

Angel 16:11

I think it's both.

Joanna 16:12

Yeah, it's both to be in people's faces and go hey I'm here I've got these great ideas I've got these great skills and expertise hire me and I think it's also just up to institutions to continue to provide opportunities for people with disabilities to upscale themselves and also I think networking and I kind of touched on that.

I think it needs to be more inclusive as well because I don't know about you and I'm sure you have as well gone to an event and it's inaccessible and you're like this is really hard, how am I going to get in the building?

Joanna 16:52

So I think we need to be a bit more open minded about those sorts of events because as we both know the industry is all about networking and it would be great to see more inclusive events and not just for people with disabilities but just in general.

I was lucky to…stop using that word. I went to South by Southwest last month and it was great because I saw a few wheelies around and I was like oh good it's accessible and it's not just the mainstream and not just here like it's an inclusive event but there's so much we can always be doing so much more.

Angel 17:36

You've got so much insider knowledge and it's so great to listen to. I hear a theme in what you're saying, and it takes me back to kind of, I've asked everyone on the podcast about their theory of change and I'll ask you that next.

But the theme that I'm hearing is that if quotas don't exist or if that awareness of that lived experience needs to be at the table and not just at one table, it needs to be interwoven throughout the, you know, the entire system.

I guess traditionally when we're talking about people with disability being afforded those opportunities, there's a limit, right? It caps out. Because the people that are affording those opportunities are just affording the ones that they feel comfortable with.

And so, it's actually faux inclusion. It really is just this really soft approach to doing the right thing. But it's exclusion because we're actually limiting those entry points. But if we start thinking about it differently and we do start working from a balanced perspective of skill and opportunity, meaning quotas and all those kinds of things, I feel, you know, the mechanics of it really do start to make a bit more sense.

Angel 19:01

So I'm really glad that you've spoken through that because I think it's an important topic. And I think it will change, it will push, you know, this statistic that 22% may disappear a lot sooner than what we expect.

Winding up, I have asked everyone this question and I'd love to hear you've identified some gaps in the industry. You've also identified some mismatches and things throughout your life's journey.

What's your theory of change for this particular statistic? How do we get to the other side?

Joanna 19:42

I think leaders in the industry need to continually push the industry to continue to be open minded. I think, again, more emerging voices need to be given an opportunity to speak up and be given opportunities.

Angel 20:02

Plug plug the Attitude Foundation’s Emerging Voices program.

Joanna 20:08

There we go. There we go. And I think, again, it just goes back to the individuals, you know, to be proactive and to find the allies and be continually thinking of innovative ways to tell stories and, again, getting people's faces and going, hey, have you thought about this story or I'd love to work with you?

So, yeah, I really think it's a collective responsibility to make changes happen. It's not just up to one individual. And I think that we all need to be hyper-aware of that. And I also really feel that because I hate the whole thing of putting responsibility on one individual.

I just don't think that's fair. And, you know, when you have lots of people who are passionate about a topic or an issue, it can really help bring things forward. So, yeah, I really think it's a collective thing that the industry needs to take on board and think of ways to continue to give people with disabilities an opportunity and go, hey, actually, we haven't really thought about this side of the industry.

There is so much potential here, not just to tell stories about disabilities, but just in general, you know, you think about the rider's track and the actor's track that's been going on, like, here's a perfect opportunity to reflect on that and go, hey, we haven't actually tapped into that side of the workforce so much. Let's do that. And, yeah, again, just it's a collective responsibility to make this change happen. Yeah, I really believe that.

Angel 22:19

Thanks for joining us. This has been the Attitudes Podcast. If you'd like to learn more about the survey, visit the University of Melbourne website or head to the Attitude Foundation website for more information on us.

Angel 22:32

This podcast wouldn't have been possible without Matt Field from the Attitude Foundation and Alex Varley from Northcott, hosted by me, Angel Dixon, produced by Lucy Griffin and edited by Simon McCulloch and Evan Munro-Smith.