Disability Dialogue - Facing the storm

KELLY COX: I'm just gonna give everybody a chance to enter the room. That should be alright. Over to you, Andrew.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: Thank you, Kelly. Good morning, and welcome. Hello. How are you all? It's lovely to be seen by you all. My name is Andrew Fairbairn. I am a 56-year-old male and I'm wearing a black polo shirt. I have very short hair and I have a going-grey-fast-rapidly beard. I have been a below- knee amputee for approximately 11 years and I work for an organisation called Limbs 4 Life, which is the peak body for amputees in Australia. I work as a project coordinator, and what I do is I build peer support groups for amputees, either facing amputation, or those who have had amputations.

I'm co-hosting this event with Kelly Cox - sorry, I apologise, Kelly Griffis-Cox - and I would like to welcome you back for another Open Dialogue. I want to begin by acknowledging the Traditional Custodians of the land which we gather, and I am on the land of the Whadjuk Noongar people in Boorloo. I live in a suburb called Girrawheen, 12km north of Perth, and that means "place of flowers". I recognise their continued connection to the land and waters of this beautiful place and acknowledge that they never ceded sovereignty. I want to pay my respects to all Elders past and present, and any First Nations people here today. Kelly.

KELLY COX: Hi, everyone. As Andrew said, I'm Kelly Griffis-Cox, and I'm part of the team here at the Disability Dialogue, as well as being a co-host today. I've got long, straight, just-below-my-shoulders brown hair. I'm wearing a brown shirt. I've got glasses with black frames. I'm sitting in my power wheelchair and in the background behind me is a window that's probably a little bit bright, and a TV on a white-coloured wall.

And just in case anyone is wondering why we do visual descriptions of ourselves in these events, it's so people who are blind or have low vision, or just for whatever reason can't see the screen, know who is speaking and a bit about what they look like, so it just helps people have a bit of a visual. And for us, it's a part of making events and meetings as accessible as possible for everybody. And I'm joining you today from the Bundjalung Nation in Ballina, in Northern NSW.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: OK. Thanks, Kelly. For those of you who have not been to one of our Dialogues before, welcome, welcome along. Think of this as a conversation, where people with disability talk openly and frankly about the things that matter to us. It is designed to be inclusive, accessible, collaborative, respectful and - most importantly - fun. We encourage you to have your camera on if you are comfortable with that, and able to, and we'll be collecting all of your comments and questions in the chat throughout the event, and may even invite you to ask questions on mic if you would like to.

KELLY COX: So, I'll give you a little bit of a background about the Dialogue. So, The

Disability Dialogue is a project designed to promote inclusive, collaborative, disability-led conversations. And one of the ways we do that is by these monthly Open Dialogues. Some of you have been before, and for some this might be your first one - so, welcome, and we hope to see you again.

And as part of that, I just wanted to acknowledge the partners for The Disability

Dialogue. So, that's DANA, or the Disability Advocacy Network Australia, Inclusion Australia, Alliance20, and the Melbourne Disability Institute. I know we've got some representatives from all those partners here today, so also welcome to them.

The project is funded through what's called an Information, Linkages and Capacity Building grant from the Department of Social Services. So, that's a lot of words to say that the Government have given some money to pay for this, and to work towards our common goal. And also a bit of a shout-out to our media partners, Powerd and Vision Australia Radio.

I will hand back to Andrew.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: So, now, as in all good meetings, we have a little bit of housekeeping to make sure everyone has an idea of how today will go. We really want to create a safe, open and inclusive space for everybody. Firstly, AI tools are not allowed. We know they can be a useful tool for people with disabilities, but not to worry - there will be a transcript uploaded to the event page shortly after this event is over, and we'll send it to you all via email. This is to protect everybody's privacy during this event. But hold that thought, because our next event is actually on AI, so we'll definitely dive more into that topic next month.

KELLY COX: And, secondly, you might hear Andrew or myself interrupt speakers as we're going, and sometimes that might seem a bit rude or awkward. But it's part of our job as co-hosts because we need to make sure that we stick to the time, so everybody gets to speak, and to make sure that we get to hear from people watching, and answer their questions, and stuff like that as well. So, yeah, just know to expect that if that happens. And we might also interrupt people - and I'm certainly open to being interrupted myself - if they speak too fast. Feel free to ping me when I get too excited and too fast!

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: Absolutely. Because sometimes when we get excited about things, Kelly, we start to get faster and faster and faster, and then the Auslan interpreters all go...

It's like, "Oh!" We'll slow down. If you feel like we're going too fast, please tell us, and we'll

be more than happy to slow down.

KELLY COX: And nervous. I get a little nervous sometimes and I speed up.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: Absolutely. Last but not least, there may be some stories or topics that come up today that can be really distressing for people. We are talking about today, particularly, a very emotional subject around weather and weather incidents. So, please take care of yourself. We're gonna get the links put up in the chat for resources that can provide support if you need. So, that's it for the housekeeping for now. Thank you, all, for joining us.

And I'm gonna hand back to Kelly to introduce Carly.

KELLY COX: Thanks, Andrew. Yeah, so now I'm going to introduce you all to the Director of The Disability Dialogue, Carly Wallace. So, Carly will, yep, over to you!

CARLY WALLACE: Hi, everyone. Thanks, Kelly, and thanks, Andrew. Hi, everyone joining online. And I see some watch parties as well, so hello to everyone joining, and all of our partners as well. My name is Carly Wallace. I'm a Dulguburra Yidinji woman, an Aboriginal woman from the Atherton Tablelands from up near Cairns, but I live in Brisbane and would like to acknowledge Country here and Elders past and present. In Brisbane, it's known as the Turrbal and Jagera people, and acknowledge surrounding people around. So, I'm the new Director of The Disability Dialogue, so that's just the fancy way of saying that I'm in the background, helping to make all of this happen, along with everybody else. So, I am really looking forward to today's topic, as someone who comes from Far North Queensland, where we have cyclones every year, with crocodiles in floodwaters, and how disasters can affect all of us in our communities. So, really looking forward to the discussion.

Would love to hear from all of you as well - either today or going forward with The Disability Dialogue - please get in touch. We are really looking forward to having more people come on as guests or speakers, joining our focus groups, and other groups going forward. So, there's gonna be lots of ways we're going to engage, and we'd love to hear how you also would like us to engage with your community or with yourselves on the other end. So, please do get in touch. There will be our details on our website of how you can get involved with The Disability Dialogue, and looking forward to the Open Dialogue next month as well on AI, so hope you can join then. But I might throw back to Kelly. Before I do that, though, you're probably thinking, "What does she look like?" Well, I've got straight hair, it's up in a bun today. I've got a black T-shirt on and I've got some woven earrings that I made because I'm a cultural weaver and I like to weave. That is one of my hobbies. And I've got some lovely pigmentation on my face, a couple of spots. And I just turned 40 this year, so

I'm getting old! And I've got some greys coming through! I reckon I'm gonna beat Andrew in a couple more years! (LAUGHS) So, that's me! But looking forward to today, and I'll throw back to Kelly. Thanks so much.

KELLY COX: Thanks, Carly. And I'm sure we'll all be seeing and hearing more from Carly as time goes on. There is a rumour that she will have a bit more of a speaking role in the November event, so look forward to that one. Back to you, Andrew.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: Thanks, Kelly. So, let's get into today's discussion. This is a couple of questions that we're going to ask you, our community. This discussion is something that I think Australians right across the country are familiar with, and that's weather-related disasters. So, weather-related disasters are things like floods, cyclones, droughts, heatwaves, or bushfires. We know that these disasters affect everyone, but preparing for these disasters and staying safe looks very different for people with disability. You might have seen a short survey that we sent out to everyone - it doesn't matter if you didn't get it, it's totally optional - but we'd like to hear from you, the audience members, about what is important to them about the topic, and your anonymous answers help guide our conversations. We'll spend a few minutes going through a couple of questions from the survey. So, if I can have that slide up - thank you. So, the first question: What do you think communities can do better to support people with disability to be safe during weather-related disasters? And some of those answers there have come up. "Comply with emergency/crisis response for people with disabilities." "Clearer disaster text messaging." "Support worker education." "Early warning alerts in simple language." "Sign language, audio messages, and

SMS." And, "Ensure all evacuation centres are accessible."

Is there anything on there that actually resonates strongly with folks, or having something to think about where you are and where you sit in that space?

KELLY COX: Let us know in the chat if you've got thoughts about different things. And then we might go to the next slide. So, the question for this one was: What do you think is helpful for people to know when they are making their own plans, in case a weather-related disaster happens?

So, some of the answers that we got for that question in the survey was that, "People need to know where to go and what to do. People need to know what their level of risk is for different hazards. People need to know what resources are available and being honest in appraising their own resources. Leave early, despite your home being better suited for your accommodations." That's a big one - that's one that's impacted me in the past and I've had to think about. And, "People having person-centred emergency preparedness plans." There are some pretty big words in that one, and that's the official term that people like the government and people that do emergency responses use, but it's just saying, "Have you got a plan, have you thought about it, what you will do and who will you contact?" and stuff like that.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: Yeah, that's great, Kelly. Thank you. I'm just reading the chat here, and a couple of folks have said things like Easy Read documentation, which is an important part of that as well. And there's a couple of organisations that are putting together "go packs", and even an emergency preparedness app to ensure that people are ready for an evacuation. So, that's fantastic. Thank you for sharing that.

KELLY COX: And I think one of the things we'll talk about later, Andrew, is, "What is an emergency? How do we decide when something is an emergency?" Because that's not a thing that everybody inherently can assess.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: Absolutely. 100%. Absolutely. So, one of the other questions that we asked was: What is the biggest challenge for you in preparing for a weather-related disaster? And I think the number-one answer there would be, "I don't know where to start." And that's something that we definitely need to do a lot of work on in how this works.

"Not knowing where I'll be at the time of the crisis." That's another really important one. "Accessible and reliable transportation options." Very much so. A very, very big challenge for folks who rely on transportation to move them around. "The reality that the areas facing the highest hazard rates are also concentrated areas of low resources." I think that that's a very, very important point in this, that we need to work out where we resource things to make sure that people are gonna be safe. And then someone has also said, "Many shelters and safe routes are not wheelchair-friendly." And that is something that's coming up in a lot of conversations around Australia at the moment, around those particular evacuation centres.

So, thank you for sharing all that information with us. It's really important. And that's helped us guide what we're going to talk about now. So, thank you, everyone who took our survey. Now I'm going to hand over to Kelly and she's going to bring up our first panellist.

KELLY COX: Thanks, Andrew. I'm going to introduce everybody now to Jonathan Tracey, otherwise known as "Jono". Jono and I know each other. We both live in Northern NSW together - well, not together, but in the same town! Jono is gonna talk to us about his experience of the 2022 floods in Lismore. He was visiting family when the water came and his actions led to his whole family being rescued. When he's not saving his family, Jono likes to go for walks, ride his bike, swim in water that doesn't have any sharks in it! And he works

as a gardener one day a week. Jono has Anthony with him today - you can see Jono and Anthony on the screen now, I think. I'm just gonna hand over to Jono and Anthony to do a quick description of themselves, and then we'll jump into it.

JONO TRACEY: You can go first.

ANTHONY: I'm Anthony. I'm an older guy in his 50s. I have a bushy, grey beard. I'm wearing a Pokemon hat, glasses, and a lilac shirt. I'm here to just offer some support for Jono. I've known him for many years now.

JONO TRACEY: My name is Jono Tracey. I've got curly hair. I've got white skin. And a scruffy beard.

KELLY COX: Excellent. Thanks, guys. So, Jono, so you were living in Ballina at the time of the '22 flood, but you went to Lismore to visit your family. And while you were there, the biggest flood Lismore has ever had has happened.

JONO TRACEY: Yep.

KELLY COX: Because Lismore floods all the time, but that was a really big one. And so, like I said, there are more floods occurring regularly, and you were in a house that was on stilts. So, that means the house was up off the ground already to allow for floodwater to come and the water not to come into the house usually. But this time, the water started coming into the house, and so that meant that the water outside was already really deep. Do you think it was about as deep as a basketball hoop? Second storey - pretty deep, wasn't it?

JONO TRACEY: The water height was 14.4m.

KELLY COX: Yeah, at the end of the flood, it was huge, wasn't it? So, at 4:00 in the morning, you were still awake?

JONO TRACEY: Yep, because I couldn't sleep. Too much noise.

KELLY COX: And the water started coming in the house?

Yep.

Do you want to tell us about what happened then? What did you do? What

were you thinking?

JONO TRACEY: Well, I realised what was happening, so I woke everyone up because everyone else was asleep. So, I told them what was happening. And, yeah, and then we just went from there.

KELLY COX: Yep. So, everybody got up, and then the water - was the water coming in fast or slow?

JONO TRACEY: Oh, um... More or less, depending on the... It was coming in. Yeah, I'd say fast. Chem

KELLY COX: It was coming in fast? What did you do? Everybody was awake and everybody was getting a bit worried?

JONO TRACEY: Yep.

KELLY COX: Does everybody in your family have a disability, Jono?

JONO TRACEY: Yep.

KELLY COX: So, you've got a house and there were five other people with you, or six?

JONO TRACEY: Uh...

ANTHONY: Your mum and dad?

JONO TRACEY: There was me, my mum, my dad, my sister and my brother. Yeah.

KELLY COX: Yep. And so the water started coming in. And did you think, "Gee, I'd better ring somebody for help"? Or, "We'd better get out of here?" What did you do, how did you make your decision?

JONO TRACEY: I called Karina. I was on the phone for six hours' straight.

KELLY COX: You were on the phone for six hours because you actually had the forethought to charge your phone the night before, so it was good, you could be on the phone for that long?

JONO TRACEY: Yeah.

KELLY COX: You ring Karina, it's really early in the morning still. Do you want to talk to us about what you and Karina talked about, the kind of plans you made and the things that you did?

JONO TRACEY: She was talking about what to do in the situation, and how to prepare, and what can I do in the situation.

KELLY COX: Yep. And what kind of things did you do?

JONO TRACEY: She was saying, "Calm down. Get your family on the kitchen benches." That's what I did.

KELLY COX: Yep, get your family on the kitchen bench. Could your family easily get up on the bench? Was that a quick thing, where you said, "Get on the bench" and they all climbed up?

JONO TRACEY: There was water everywhere. No, it was a slow process.

KELLY COX: How deep was the water when people were getting on the kitchen bench?

JONO TRACEY: The kitchen bench was definitely under water.

KELLY COX: The benches were under water. So, you think it took a couple of hours for you to help everybody get on the bench?

JONO TRACEY: I don't know. It all happened pretty quickly.

KELLY COX: Happened pretty quickly? So, everybody is on the bench, and the benches are under water?

Yep.

And the water is still getting higher.

JONO TRACEY: Yep.

KELLY COX: And then what happened? What did you do next?

JONO TRACEY: Well, I tried to keep everyone calm and relaxed and, yeah, tried and called out for help.

KELLY COX: Yep. So, you had to go... Did you call for help from the kitchen or did you go outside to call for help?

JONO TRACEY: Well, that was a bit of a stitch-up. Because for me, I had to go to the front of the building. When I got to the door, I could see more water rushing in, right? Yeah. And that made the water rise faster. I could see all the boats, right? Yeah.

KELLY COX: So, how high did the water get when you opened the door?

JONO TRACEY: Mmm, I would say a couple of metres' high.

KELLY COX: Yep. Where was it up to you?

ANTHONY: Shoulders?

JONO TRACEY: Yeah.

KELLY COX: Up to your shoulders. So, you were standing in the doorway in shoulder-deep water on the second storey of the building?

JONO TRACEY: Yeah.

KELLY COX: And what did you do then? You could see the boats?

JONO TRACEY: Yeah.

And did you wave for the boats or call out to the boats?

I would say I did it, in a negative way.

In a negative way? You got a bit angry 'cause they weren't coming?

JONO TRACEY: I was saying, "Please come and help us." They say, "Get on the roof." Right? But the chance of someone getting on the roof is very, very hard and not simple.

KELLY COX: Yeah, I mean, if people had trouble getting on the kitchen bench, so telling you to get on the roof...

JONO TRACEY: Yeah, that's impossible. Most people can't climb up on a roof. So, they don't make buildings so you can climb up on a roof.

KELLY COX: Yep. So, you had to explain that to the people in the boats every time they came?

JONO TRACEY: More or less. That's not the words I was using at the time.

KELLY COX: That's alright. Sometimes we use different words when we're very worried, don't we? So, then, eventually, some boats did come to take you all, didn't they?

JONO TRACEY: Yeah. I got in one boat, then I was separated. Then I got into another boat, and then, yeah, I don't know what was happening after that, when I got separated.

KELLY COX: So, a boat came and took you?

JONO TRACEY: Yep.

KELLY COX: And then your family was still in the house?

JONO TRACEY: Yep.

KELLY COX: And you were saying, "My family is in the house"?

Yeah, they were still in the house. Yeah.

Yep. And so then you got put into another boat?

JONO TRACEY: Yep.

KELLY COX: And then you got taken...and then you ended up at the evacuation centre, is that right?

JONO TRACEY: I wound up at the Lismore Uni.

KELLY COX: The uni, yep. And so you and Karina had not been on the phone for a long time then, because your battery went flat?

JONO TRACEY: Well, I would say that it went in the water and then died.

KELLY COX: Yep. And so then Karina rang me that day and said, "I'm really worried about

Jono and his family." She told me what had happened. She said, "Can you try and find Jono?" I started posting on social media, "Has anybody seen Jono?" I put a photo of you.

And eventually that night, probably at 8:00 that night, you rang me with somebody.

JONO TRACEY: Yeah.

KELLY COX: And did you know at 8:00 that night where your family was, if they'd been rescued?

JONO TRACEY: No, I did not know.

KELLY COX: You had no idea?

JONO TRACEY: I did not know until I was told...

KELLY COX: Yep. But, thankfully for you, they did get rescued and you all got reunited later that day?

JONO TRACEY: Yeah.

Is there anything else you want to tell people about that day?

Not really.

Not really? Alright. People might have some questions. We can come back

later. We really appreciate that you did come and tell us your story, though.

JONO TRACEY: Thank you.

KELLY COX: That's alright. And if people have questions, you're happy for them to put them in the chat, aren't you?

JONO TRACEY: Yep.

KELLY COX: Alright, well, we might welcome Andrew back into the chat and see, yeah, if anybody has any questions or comments.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: Thanks, Kelly. Sabrina has a question - she would like to know how you kept yourself and your family calm. I'd like to know that too.

JONO TRACEY: That's hard because we've all got disabilities. I wouldn't know how.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: You don't know how you kept them calm, you just did?

JONO TRACEY: Yep. It's not easy trying to help someone with disabilities, yeah.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: Yeah. That's amazing. What an incredible story. Wow.

KELLY COX: Do we mean chanting, saying, "Cool, calm, collected"? Or something like that?

JONO TRACEY: Yeah.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: That sounds like a really plan to me - "cool, calm, collected". We were discussing this the other day, Jono, and we were talking about how when something happens like this, you get very anxious and anxiety kicks in, and your adrenaline level goes really, really high, and you can get very...there's a thing called the fight-or-flight mode. And you seemed to have managed to keep that very, very under control, which is admirable, because I'm not sure I would be able to do that myself.

KELLY COX: He's pretty brave.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: Very, very brave.

ANTHONY: Amazing.

KELLY COX: Jono, I don't know if you want to talk about what it was like at the evacuation centre once you got there?

JONO TRACEY: Well, just trying to do what everyone else was trying to do, basically. Just trying to survive, trying to keep calm and collected, and trying to do the best they can. And, yeah, Anthony was a good help.

KELLY COX: Anthony? Because you didn't know anybody there. Did Anthony come to you while you were there?

JONO TRACEY: Yeah, he did. He was there.

KELLY COX: Yep. Do you want Anthony to say anything about that?

JONO TRACEY: He can, if he wants to.

ANTHONY: It was, yeah, it was a pretty dire situation. There was open space, people were struggling to find food and clothing. There were people around them that weren't well for various reasons. And I just... I checked in with Jono every day until I'd had the opportunity to get him out of there and give him some space. But his entire family struggled, but Jono was very much the champion of all of them.

JONO TRACEY: Aww, shucks!

ANTHONY: From my perspective, the guy is a hero. Yeah, I think he was forced into a situation where he had to take on a role of responsibility that I think no-one should have to.

But he did.

How many nights did you stay at the evacuation centre, Jono?

Huh?

How many nights did you stay at the evacuation centre?

JONO TRACEY: 14.

KELLY COX: 14. Because the water was still up, wasn't it? It's not like the water is gone the next day.

JONO TRACEY: Yeah, two weeks.

KELLY COX: Your family is lucky.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: Grace White has asked a question of you, Jono, and she puts a thing on here to say that you don't have to answer it, only share if you're comfortable. "Did you get offered any extra or new services afterwards to support you with how you were feeling?" Hopefully, Grace, I'm getting this right, "Did you get an opportunity to talk to someone afterwards about what happened, and the situation, to get some...like, we would call it a debrief, giving you the opportunity to speak about it so you can process it, work through it?"

JONO TRACEY: Yeah.

KELLY COX: Like a counsellor, Jono. Did you talk to a counsellor?

JONO TRACEY: About...?

ANTHONY: Afterwards.

JONO TRACEY: Hmm... I had a counsellor. I think her name was Danielle. Yeah, that's right. Her name was Danielle. She was nice, yeah.

ANTHONY: And support staff.

JONO TRACEY: Yeah, that too.

ANTHONY: So, access to support staff afterwards. But mostly it was through social and

support networks, as opposed to direct counselling, psychological support.

JONO TRACEY: Yeah.

KELLY COX: (Indistinct) now, Jono?

JONO TRACEY: The what?

KELLY COX: How do you feel when it rains now, does it worry you? Or have you talked it out?

JONO TRACEY: Well, I can hear when the rain is outside, but I know I'm in Ballina, not in Lismore, so it's not going to affect me, not as much.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: There's another question from Lisa, and she ask, Jono, were people at the evacuation centre able to bring their pets? And what was it like staying there for 14 days?

JONO TRACEY: Well, it was different, right, but it was nice.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: Yeah?

JONO TRACEY: I can't say if they were allowed pets there or not... But I think there was pets there, yeah.

ANTHONY: Yeah, people had their dogs.

JONO TRACEY: Yeah.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: OK. Were they assistance animals or were they pets?

JONO TRACEY: I can't tell the difference.

ANTHONY: They were pets.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: They were pets? OK. Because that's very different. In Western

Australia, where I live, in evacuation centres, you can't take pets into an evacuation centre, you can only take assistance animals. So, different states, obviously different rules and regulations. But, yeah, that's really interesting.

KELLY COX: I wonder too, Andrew - and Anthony might, as a Lismore local, might know a bit more about this - although the evacuation centres were set up prior to the water, Lismore is very familiar with floods, and nobody really expected it to be as high as it was. So, lots of people would just stay in houses - like the one that Jono was in - up on stilts. You could get 3m of water through the town and they'll lose power but they've got their pets inside and they're prepared and ready to go.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: OK.

KELLY COX: This one was very different because the water just got so high, and then what people call "the tinny brigade" or "the tinny army", civilians in their tinnies, going out against advice by the authorities in the early stages, and SES were saying, "Please don't go," luckily, they didn't listen. Because I think there would have been a huge loss of life if they didn't do that. But people got rescued and took their pets. And I think at that point, the evacuation centres had no choice. People and pets were there.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: Yep.

JONO TRACEY: Yeah, the community came together and supported everyone.

KELLY COX: They did.

ANTHONY: Yeah, there was absolutely a point where policy was no longer relevant and it was purely about making sure people were OK. Heavily improvised.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: And that really is an interesting topic - we could develop that as another topic, Kelly, later on - how policy actually doesn't work in situations, where an emergency has happened and what do you do about it? Policy sometimes doesn't actually address that very well. So, that's really interesting. Joseph has asked a question: Post the flood, Jono, did it take a long time to get back to a normal routine? And have you made any changes after going through this?

JONO TRACEY: You can say...

ANTHONY: How long do you think it took things to get normal again?

JONO TRACEY: I'll say a year.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: That's a long time. And I ask these questions, I'm very... I have never been in a situation like that. We don't have floods where I live. We have bushfires, but we don't have floods. So, I cannot imagine what that would have been like at all for you. And your family. So, thank you so much for sharing that story with us. And I think it's generated a lot of interest on the chat. And we really appreciate you sharing it with us, Jono. Thank you so much.

JONO TRACEY: Thank you.

KELLY COX: We really appreciate it. Just because Carly has mentioned in the chat that she went to Lismore not long after the floods, and Jono mentioned earlier that the water was 14m deep. So, that's taller than telegraph lines, for people. So, light poles and stuff - it's very, very deep. If you think about a sign for McDonald's or KFC, they were under water, you couldn't see them anymore. Very deep water.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: So, I have just been made aware of another question, Jono, before we move on. Sophie would like to know if there was one thing that would make it easier for you - and I'm making the assumption that this is within the centre, within the evacuation centre, and is there anything that the evacuation centres could have done to make things easier for you?

JONO TRACEY: It was pretty good. I was happy with everything that happened.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: OK. So, they looked after you with, like, food and a bed, somewhere to put your head down? Stuff like that?

JONO TRACEY: Yeah.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: Yep? Yep.

JONO TRACEY: They had air mattresses. Not the most comfiest thing to sleep on, but it was something. It was like going camping with a bunch of different people.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: (LAUGHS)

ANTHONY: I would like to mention, though, one of the things that was very challenging was access to medication and accessibility devices - they were typically lost during the flood.

They were extremely difficult to get access to.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: When you say "accessibility devices", what are we talking? Mobility devices, wheelchairs, stuff like that? Or phones...?

ANTHONY: Things like glasses, hearing aids, sort of general stuff.

JONO TRACEY: Emergency supplies. Nothing.

ANTHONY: Well, yeah, things that people rely on every day just to function better.

KELLY COX: Yep. And it's 4:00 in the morning when the water starts coming in to Jono's house. For other people, would have been earlier or later. You're all getting up and trying to get out of there at that point, you're not thinking to grab those kind of things. You're probably going to get wet getting rescued anyway. So, yep, very difficult.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: Wow. There's a whole bunch of other questions there as well, which someone has asked about, "What supports have you had post?" We talked a little bit about going to see a counsellor. And did the Lismore Council, did they help you? All that sort of stuff? In cleaning up and all that? That was all done well? Could it have been done better?

JONO TRACEY: I mean, the part is the air mattress where I was sleeping, there was no bed, because I was sleeping on a lumpy couch. It was broken by the weight, right, and there were springs all over the shop.

ANTHONY: It wasn't an upgrade or a downgrade, no! I think that's a very challenging question to answer. Like, I don't think things were handled particularly well during or for a long period afterwards.

JONO TRACEY: One bed to another bed.

ANTHONY: Yep, it's all good.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: Yeah, that's totally fair. You know, until people have gone through this, they don't know what's gonna happen and they don't know... And you guys now have very much lived experience on the post of this, and how it's worked out. So, again, thank you so much for sharing, Jono. It's been really, really, really insightful, and I know the community here will get a lot of out of this, and you have been very thought-provoking. So, we very much appreciate it. Thanks, Jono.

JONO TRACEY: Thank you.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: OK. Keep the comments and the questions coming in the chat. If there are things in there, we'll send them on to Jono and Jono can answer them, and we'll just continue this conversation and keep it going. Because this is really about a conversation that needs to be kept going, because it's not only...we don't only work here in Australia, but our whole community around the world can - and are - affected by natural disasters. As I said, in Western Australia, where I live in Perth, we don't have floods here, but we have really, really bad bushfires. And up north in Western Australia, they have both floods and bushfires. So, wherever you are in Australia, natural disasters can and will affect you in some way, shape, or form. So, keeping those communication channels open is very, very important in this.

So, our next guest comes from... And I believe she's actually not going to be here, but we are going to... Because she lives in Vanuatu. Now, we're going to put a slide up to show you where Vanuatu is. And so where you guys are here in NSW, and Vanuatu is 2,500km to the east of you. And in Perth, we are 5,500km from Vanuatu. So, our guest was to be Nelly Caleb. Nelly is a disability rights activist and advocate. She is the former co-chair of the Pacific Disability Forum and is currently a Board Member of the International Disability Alliance from Vanuatu. And she's National Coordinator of the Vanuatu Disability Promotion and Advocacy Association, known as DPA. She champions disability inclusion in disaster preparedness, accessibility, and policy in the Pacific region. So, we were going to ask Nelly a whole bunch of questions about how things are done in Vanuatu in that particular setting. And as you can see on that map, where Vanuatu is, is right in the middle of the ocean. So, they have a whole plethora, a whole different - they're subject to a whole different lot of challenges than we are. And one of those particularly that I know - and I've actually met Nelly - is typhoons and hurricanes and then tsunami, which is big, big, big waves. So, I was really, really keen to have Nelly on, but at the moment there is, in Vanuatu, there's a lot of instability in their internet networks. And we haven't actually heard back from Nelly for a few days, so we don't know - we hope that she's OK. We do know that there's a massive storm brewing up in Hong Kong, and that may have affected further out towards Vanuatu. Where they are. So, we, sadly, are not going to have Nelly online today. But we are gonna put in the chat a link to a really interesting podcast that she was involved in. And I would encourage you to have a listen to that podcast, and it will give you a really good idea of what happens in an island, a very small island like Vanuatu, and how they work with folks with disabilities in the disaster risk reduction space.

Yeah, I'm sort of sad she's not here, because I was really looking forward to having a chat with her. But anyway. So, Kelly.

KELLY COX: Yeah, well, I mean, it's a shame that Nelly wasn't here, but it did mean that we got a little bit of extra time with Jono, which was really welcomed as well, and perhaps we can get Nelly back in the future. But it is time for a 10-minute break now. So, we might take that time and go and have a cup of tea or get some energy out, or do any of the things that we need to do. And then when we come back, we have another guest to speak to us, Joseph. And Joseph will talk to us about what it's like for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in disasters or bad weather events, and some of the work that he does. So, we'll see you all in 10 minutes.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: Thank you.

(BREAK)

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: Hey, and we're back. We are back. There has been some really good comments and questions in the chat. Thank you for that. And keep those going. Keep that conversation going. I want to do a bit of a shout-out to Bev for her question, at the watch party at Minda. Can you guys put your camera on so we can say hi, if you're happy to do that?

Have we got 'em? Hi! A watch party - that's awesome. Love it. Love it. So, Bev, the question that you asked about, "How would people with disability be able to get our floodwaters and fires?" Look, that's a very... What we'll do, probably we can get some information sent to you. It's a very long conversation that we can have about it. We'll be happy to send you some information on what we know and how that works. Is that OK?

Beautiful. Thank you. Really appreciate it. Really appreciate it.

So, next, we're going to have a chat with Joseph Archibald. Now, Joseph is a proud

Gamilaroi/Gumbaynggirr man - hopefully, I pronounced that correctly, Joseph - and leads Indigenous Services at Growing Potential. He works as a service provider to help Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people with NDIS supports and more. Joseph, thank you for joining us today. Please say hello and give us a short visual description.

JOSEPH ARCHIBALD: Thank you, Andrew, and thank you for everybody that's present. I guess I'll start with a visual description. I'm a middle-aged male, a stubble beard, and short black hair, with my brown-skin complexion, summarises me. A grey shirt with our Indigenous artwork present, which is our service shirt. Thank you for the invitation. I'd firstly like to thank you for the invitation and thank the working party and the stories that have been shared already. I've learnt so much just through the conversations and questions that have already been a part of this session. And a very heroic story from Jono. So, my input is, I guess, an opportunity to share some perspectives from our involvement in...just related to the topic of extreme weather or associated events. Definitely not firsthand to the level of Jono, but hopefully some perspectives that can positively contribute to the conversation and hopefully, as I have taken out of other things that have been shared in the comments, as well as the conversations, that if there's something that anybody can take away that might add to their thinking in and around this topic, then it's been worthwhile.

Firstly, I'll acknowledge Country that I'm sitting on. I'm in Port Macquarie on Birpai Country in the Mid North Coast of NSW. I work with a service called Growing Potential and my position is Executive General Manager of our Indigenous Service Division.

We do a mixed range of NDIS supports as well as additional family supports, early childhood, across regional, rural and different areas of NSW. And I guess in relation to this topic, it was an opportunity in talking with Kelly and other members of the Dialogue team to share, I guess, our experiences, our learnings. I am at times speaking on behalf of participants that we support, and where they have shared stories with us in that service provider-participant relationship in and around this topic.

KELLY COX: Can we ask you a few questions, Joseph?

JOSEPH ARCHIBALD: Absolutely.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: Can I ask the first one, Kelly?

KELLY COX: Go for it.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: The second one sort of more relates to you and Jono. Is that OK? So, Joseph, you've worked in the disability sector for a long time and you're currently working with Aboriginal people across a big area of NSW. Can you tell us a little bit about the areas that you cover and the types of weather events that your people are experiencing?

JOSEPH ARCHIBALD: Yeah, thanks for the question, Andrew. So, we have a mix of regional areas, where the Mid North Coast, especially parts of the North Coast, upper end of the Hunter, and then inland, the Tablelands. It's around the topic of emergency events, it can vary really quite significantly. So, on the Mid North Coast, we've had a number of significant flooding events in the recent times. People would have seen the Taree floods were the most recent event in this specific area here. Going back pre-COVID, we had the significant bushfires, which really impacted this area. And in talking with the team and Kelly around, kind of, what defines, you know, within this topic, the umbrella of extreme weather events, is it's not just the largest of events that actually meet the criteria of a designated natural disaster, but it's also reflecting on when extreme weather can impact people in ways that are still significant without, I guess, the defined label attached to it.

So, I guess it varies, for us, from drought and heatwaves, even things throughout extreme winter conditions, cool, and for us it's been about reflecting on our learnings throughout this experience. And when events have occurred, we've learnt the most by reflecting on what we weren't prepared for. So, a lot of, I guess, the conversations that are most valuable to share is, when we've gone through an event, what have we learnt around people we support but also our role as a provider? And then reflecting on, "What can we do better? What are our opportunities to learn and adapt and be able to better support the people that we work with in preparing for future events?" Especially, as we know, the reality that they're becoming more frequent. You know, the impacts are significant, and that it's something that we know are going to continue with more frequency into the future.

KELLY COX: Joseph, do you have some practical examples of what some of those learnings were, and things that you've maybe put in place, or plan on putting in place?

JOSEPH ARCHIBALD: Absolutely. So, a big one for us - and a lot of the things that were shared already in the comments - talking from the context of specifically, you know, working with Aboriginal communities and individuals and families, is the overlay, the cultural overlay that may be slightly different or need to be considered to have an effective person-centred response. So, things like historical distrust with the key emergency services was a big one that, you know, is a reality that can be - if it's not on the radar or it's not a part of a plan, can really significantly increase risk. So, primary services in an emergency that larger sections of the Aboriginal community do not have a positive relationship with, can be the primary ones in emergency - police, SES ... On the Mid North Coast, the services that primarily were manning the emergency evacuation centres were Child Protection workers. So, that meant that our families weren't comfortable to access the emergency evacuation centres because the workers that were there - and it wasn't obviously a deliberate thing - but trying to

navigate and encourage, "Here's a service that's available to support families," but because of the distrust, families weren't accessing those spaces for the help that they needed. For us, it was...

KELLY COX: Joseph, the distrust in even accessing disability-related supports exists. So, there's a big layer of trust needed for families to go to somewhere like the NDIS and say, "My child has a disability," and maybe to talk about the ways that life is sometimes harder than it is for other people, related to that disability, because there's that fear, "What if Child

Protection comes and makes assumptions based on historical actions and the Stolen Generation," and stuff like that.

JOSEPH ARCHIBALD: Absolutely.

KELLY COX: To add another layer to that, to then need to go to an evacuation centre with those workers, is really difficult.

JOSEPH ARCHIBALD: And being able to navigate that when there's a layer of vulnerability because of the disaster and what's already occurring, and we touched on before, Andrew said that fight-or-flight, to then have that compounded by layers of things that are real to that individual, may not seem real in the reality that's at risk, but inherently a genuine fear that that person's carrying around, that being able to acknowledge that and then navigate that was really critical. The other thing is that reluctance to reach out for formal supports, all those emergency services, meant that the reliance on informal structures - families - and then the pressures and the fact that the disadvantage often is compounded in Aboriginal communities. So, infrastructure, resources, the risk that comes with families taking on more during those situations, and not having the resources to be able to navigate that effectively, was a big one for us.

So, things like, in our prepared pre-planning, being able to work with people to effectively help to, in an appropriate way, build some bridges. So, we've had conversations around the involvement of Aboriginal orgs or people in disaster response, so that's a broader community conversation that we've tried to plant seeds around and work towards. But also things like taking our participants out to engage with, or spend time with, services, like do a visit to the SES outside of an emergency so that they can become familiar with, "OK, this is a service that, you know, if you're familiar with it, hopefully if you ever need them, you're more likely, or there's less resistance to, reach out or to engage, and to understand their role and their function in the community," along those other ones as well. For us, there were things that we definitely didn't have on our radar until we sat back and then reflected on and worked with our participants and unpacked, you know, what is it that led to you...what were you fearful of? Where did the risk come from? What can we do better? Yeah, post, I guess, an extreme event.

KELLY COX: It's awesome that you guys are doing that work. And I'm wondering also - and I think in my experiences as well, working with community, there are aspects of it that you can't mitigate. So, I'm aware of experiences - and I'm not gonna talk to local communities here - but I'm aware of situations where maybe there are resources are available to people who are then impacted by something like a flood. Whether that's like food or clothing or money that's available. And the way perhaps an Aboriginal person who's attending a location to access those resources could be treated compared to somebody who's non-Indigenous, can sometimes be different, which also... So, I think, you know, we have racism, to call it out bluntly, that impacts people in those scenarios as well.

And I wonder also if you wanted to... I am mindful of the time and we have got a question or two. But from a cultural perspective, when those big disaster events happen and we talk about, you know, the correction to Country and community, because those big disasters change Country, they have an impact on Country. And sometimes there is cultural loss because of that. Do you want to talk a little bit to that?

JOSEPH ARCHIBALD: Yeah, I've got, in making some points for today, there was definitely a big section on what wellbeing looks like during and post events. And things like loss of the ability to have connections. Where risk can be increased again, if you can at least have it on your radar, then you have the opportunity to try and work with it from a reality, and hopefully reduce risk or mitigate it, but also acknowledge where you can't mitigate that risk and come up with alternative strategies. So, things like cultural obligations - we have, a lot of our participants, a natural disaster doesn't discriminate, it can impact everybody. Where there was multiple family impact, that the obligation is to give. So, we had participants that were giving everything that they had via an obligation to family, but leaving themselves, or putting themselves at risk because the financial implications of not being able to get your essentials or pay for rent or meet your obligation...or giving all the food that you had because, you know, Aunty or another family member was short.

So, you can't tell somebody not to do that. But how do we mitigate it? How do we prepare them? How do we have those conversations in a culturally respectful way, so that we're not undermining the cultural elements? But we're hopefully supporting to come up with that person-centred plan about, "Well, how do we navigate that when it does come up?" That's when we were really reaching out to those organisations and supports in community and saying, "Can we have a plan, can we work together to come up with responses?" And even around applying for...when the national disaster funding got allocated from a policy response, Kel, as you said, that when it gets...people either don't have the ability to apply, they don't know how to navigate to access the funding that's there to help them post a disaster. So, having that infrastructure, having resources, being able to engage people. And then if it gets rejected, being able to navigate those service systems on behalf of people so that they don't go without, that service is actually there to help them through that disaster.

And, you know, that's not always easy for anybody. But the compounding impact can be really quite significant in other areas, if it's not accessed, you know, through those pressures of loss of housing or becoming unwell. I know Andrew touched on - or it might have been Jono's story touched on essential things like medications and, you know, the essential things that you need for daily life, you know, become so critical in planning. One of the things that we learnt with the floods also was things that you take for granted around property and environment. So, better strategies to deal with mould, or when it's extremely cold, people can't afford to run a heater all the time, so that creates another issue. They end up with an electricity bill they can't afford. Things like staying cool - they don't have an air conditioner, so being able to have strategies to how to help them deal with when it's extremely hot. So, things like helping them have things around their home, humidifying, keeping frozen bottles of water in the fridge, going and having a cold shower, having that personal plan for them to be able to mitigate their environments to reduce risk or to be able to adapt to keep themselves safe, within their means. And that was a key point for us - you know, working from the reality of the individual and working within their means, not developing plans that may sound practical to some but don't let the individual... You know, use your air conditioner, use your heater, go and run your - you know, jump in your car and go to somewhere.

KELLY COX: I'm gonna jump in, Joseph, reluctantly, because we're pushing it for time. And I think there are a couple of questions in the chat. So, I will let Andrew...

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: There's actually...

KELLY COX: And just mindful of time. We do want to be able to bring everybody back...

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: There is quite a few questions here for you, Joseph. I think what we might do, Kelly, and, Joseph, if you're OK with this, we'll get a transcript of this for you and then you can, like, answer the questions and we can put it out to the whole group. 'Cause there's a whole bunch of stuff in here, particularly talking about someone's asked if they could get a plan, a template written up on how they can become more culturally aware, and how that works as well, to do better. They're not sure where they can start. Carly has brought up a really good, interesting thing around the Koori Mail and how an Aboriginal service has worked with a local community during the Lismore floods. Grace has said it's really nice to hear the expanded definition of "extreme events" and the impacts, and how that happens. One question, where we talked about... And it was from Bastien. She's curious whether there are volunteer groups that Indigenous people trust more - for example, St John's Ambulance, Surf Life Saving, Red Cross? Do you want to have a crack at that?

JOSEPH ARCHIBALD: Yeah, great question. It's an ongoing piece of work for us, I guess is the answer. 'Cause that was not necessarily a defined piece of work that we were fully prepared for. So, it's a conversation that keeps growing for us around, you know, what can we do within the broader local community that, you know, allows and supports our family, our individuals, to have safe options during a disaster? Rather than, I guess, being reluctant and not leaving it to luck, really, or fate, and hoping, but having a plan that they can really engage with in a safe way. So, the answer is it's an ongoing piece of work that, yeah...but the conversations have been positive so far because it really wasn't on the radar at all. So, we're encouraged.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: Cool. Thank you. Thanks for that. Really appreciate it. And on the topic of resources, Lisa has shared her email address and she's got some resources that they have been working with. But she's happy to share them as well. So, I'll leave that up to the team at The Disability Dialogue, we can work out how we can share that with the folks, Kelly?

KELLY COX: For sure. I might take the opportunity to invite Jono back as well. So, Joseph will stay and we'll continue the questions, if anybody has got them. So, questions for Joseph, questions for Jono? Andrew or I, if that's your vibe! (LAUGHS) But, yeah, I know that we're getting towards the end of time, people will start having to jump off soon. So, I also just really wanted to thank everybody who came today to listen and for their questions and contributions. And, again, a big thanks to Jono and Joseph for sharing their story. And can I also just really quickly acknowledge that because Nelly was unable to make it, the event did become a little NSW-centric. I wanted to acknowledge that wasn't intentional. We thought we were gonna be very flash and have an international perspective as well, and unfortunately it didn't happen. But, yeah, incredible contributions from Joseph and Jono.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: I'm far enough away, aren't I, Kelly?!

KELLY COX: That's true. Andrew is in Perth! (LAUGHTER)

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: It's been really good. Thank you. So, like, there is a question in the chat. I will get back to that in one second. I also really want to say thank you to Jono and

Joseph for sharing. Really, really interesting stories. It's been a really good conversation.

And, you know, hopefully, we can continue this conversation. And like many of the topics of The Dialogue, we could talk for so much longer, we could sit here all day talking about this stuff. So, really appreciate both Jono and Joseph for sharing with us today. Thank you.

KELLY COX: And before you jump in again...

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: Go for it.

KELLY COX: I just wanted to check, Jono, is there anything else you wanted to add, now you've had time to digest? There might be some more questions for you anyway. I will let Andrew have a look.

JONO TRACEY: Thank you.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: I don't have anything else, Kelly. There is a question in the chat from - I think... Let me see... Lullita, around the NDIS having an emergency services funding category, only accessible when needed. I think that that's probably very much a wish that will never happen, but they do...they are working to build a better understanding of emergencies and disaster risk reduction in Australia. In the background. They actually do have a team working on that as we speak. I have been in conversation with them in the past, and it's just - as Joseph quite eloquently put - it's an ongoing conversation and it takes time. So, thank you for those questions.

KELLY COX: I might, on that note, go back to Joseph, if I could. Because I really didn't want to interrupt the roll that you were on, Joseph, but I think that's a good segue, as you were talking about the practical ways that you guys support people. And often you're the NDIS service provider in their life on many occasions - not always - but the NDIS don't fund the types of things that you're talking about. You know, if people have to buy bottled water, that's a cost, if you don't have a lot of extra cash, that's money that you might not have and that you guys as an organisation might then need to pay for. So, I wondered if we could talk a little bit about those gaps?

JOSEPH ARCHIBALD: Yeah, spot on. And it's huge. I read in the comments, you know, someone mentioned, made a comment about taking the burden off, pro bono, expenses or costs related to some of this work. But for us it was a healthy conversation around, "Where can you be proactive?" And that's the reach out to the broader services in the community as well. Hopefully, people that want to be a part of the conversation as well, and feel it's important, finding that. I know one example here is our local Aboriginal Land Council started keeping frozen meals away, and within their service, for emergency situations, or examples where people don't have...a shortage may occur. But sometimes there is no easy answer, but a necessary decision needs to be made. Because in the families and demographic, you know, the Aboriginal community that we work with, lack of resources is sometimes the biggest hurdle. And being able to collaborate effectively and, hopefully, well, our approach is having the seed planted ahead of time, to try to avoid the desperation of, you know, really being short when the time comes. And that pressure falling back on to people to then overreach or live with the consequence of sometimes the things we don't want to see - someone being significantly impacted through lack of resources. So, that's definitely a key conversation with no easy answer sometimes!

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: No, that's true. That's true, Joseph, for sure.

KELLY COX: It's probably time to...

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: One more, Kelly. One more. We're gonna go back to Jono. This one came from Sean, it was asked way back but I missed it in the chat. I apologise, Sean and Jono. You mentioned missing the difficulties...being evacuated, missing accessibility equipment. I know in Western Australia, there are no organisations per se that actually supply that into an evacuation centre. So, is there anything in NSW, where you guys are, that actually does that? Or is that just a...?

KELLY COX: No, I think not that any of us are aware of.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: OK, cool. Sean, I hope that answered your question. Anyway.

KELLY COX: We've got three minutes.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: Over to you.

KELLY COX: Well, we hope that you all enjoyed The Dialogue, and we would love for you to come to future Dialogues. Our next one is on artificial intelligence and the way people with disability use it in their day-to-day lives, and we'll touch on some of the risks and things that we need to look out for in that as well.

That's in October. The events are held the last Wednesday of the month, so in a similar time. We're gonna start getting into a schedule, so you guys can just lock them into your calendar each month.

We're really looking forward to it. We're going to pop the link to register for that one in the chat. We want to continue the conversation about today, so there will be a bit of a survey that will go out, that we hope we can get some more information back. Yeah, the survey, we will do an Easy Read version of it. We really want to hear what you thought. We really want to see you at future events. And we really appreciate you coming and giving up your time today.

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: So, thank you. That's the end. And we are right on time. So, thanks for such an engaging and lively event, and we look forward to seeing you at next month's event. Bye for now.

JONO TRACEY: Thank you!

KELLY COX: Bye!

ANDREW FAIRBAIRN: Bye!