Emerging Voices - Employment

Amere 0:11
You are listening to Emerging Voices on... SYN. Welcome to this show. My name is Amere [?Brand Abdi], and it's... coming up next is Treaty by Yothu Yindi.

Satria 0:45
So [ ? ] on work... today, we have a great... Do you want to introduce?

Sise 1:10
Yeah, hi, my name is Sise.

Satria 1:14
Today we are going to talk about our [?] experiences of employment. So I guess Sisi would you explain a bit about what in terms of employment and what I get... [?]

Sise 1:48
In my previous job, I was hairdresser, and I used to do hair coloring, the hair and all the product for the hairdresser. So... yeah... I did it for... almost now, two years since I've been working, but I've been working by myself at home, like, you know, since I was 10 years old. This one, I want to [/}...

Satria 2:25
What has been your favourite job?

Sise 2:36
Oh, that's just like my hobby. So I like to do.

Satria 2:40
Cool. So, how did you find the employer... the employer, being able to accommodate your access needs?

Sise 2:40
In the hairdressing there is not anything special. So I used to work like a hairdresser employee, so there is not much recruitment that they can offer me there, it's just like, there is a chair there, but the most of the time when you're doing hair, you stand up, or sometimes you sit down. So for me, I see it as a bit come to... what's it called, hard and complicated. But yeah, there is no more so special about any equipment or anything to do with disability.

Satria 3:49
Yeah, I get that. So that what have you done to have your needs accommodated for?

Sise 4:06
What have you done for your work implementing?

Satria 4:09
So, what will you be next ...work choice... course, inclusive... for a radio... different... different organisations [?] so all about the communicating... would be a good foundation for ... improvement... [?]

What is your favourite in your job? What do you like about your job?

I really like teaching people and concepts and that's really what's... [?] love working. People... (MUSIC)

Amere 5:40
My name is Amere [?Brand Abdi], and our... I have with me, Zimona, as we going to talk about disability, workplace and workplace adjustment for people with disability. So Zimona, welcome to the show.

Zimona 5:59
Thank you. It's really lovely to be here with you today. So let's dive in. Are you working at the moment, and if so, what type of work are you doing?

Amere 6:10
So I've been working in lots of different places, so at the moment, I work with construction companies, and what we... what I do as I step in as a social inclusion advisor...

Zimona 6:27
Oh, that's amazing.

Amere 6:28
Yeah. So... working to set the target and to build the relationship with the subcontractors and all sort of different things.

Zimona 6:39
That's really great. Is there anything that you're really proud of, that you've achieved within your job?

Amere 6:45
Within my job... creating Ability Network is one of the achievement which, as myself and big bunch of passionate people, we created. So Ability means a group of people who come together as allies and people with disability within the workplace I am in. We talk about, how can we make different adjustments to be more inclusive for people with disability and other people as well. So... how about you tell me about your current job or previous job and what sort of adjustments, if needed, you know, what are the sort of things you have asked or have required for your... ideal job.

Zimona 7:44
Well, for me, at the moment, my job is finding a job, so that's something that I'm working on. And in the past, I've worked with different businesses on their brand identity, so graphic design, photography, social media, that's been really interesting. I do a little bit of work in mental health advocacy at the moment, but that's just a couple hours here and there during the month. And what I've noticed in the past is that I had to really ask for flexible hours and lots of breaks in between as well. So that's something that I advocated for, and that was actually granted. So that was really... yeah, that was really helpful for me to actually work to my best ability.

Amere 8:08
Mm. So with... right now, you're saying you're looking for jobs, and you obviously qualified, went to university and done lots of great education, same as everybody else. What sort of barriers are you facing at the moment to get into the ideal job for yourself as a person with disability?

Zimona 8:59
Yeah, I think it's really finding a job that will cater for people with a disability and whether or not to disclose it. I've been...labelled High Functioning, but I still struggle, if that makes sense, with my disability. So it's... really a struggle to in the interview process to know how to disclose that, and if not to disclose that. What about you? What has been your experience with interview processes? I guess, have you had any...?

Amere 9:31
So... there are a few things to mention in there. So sometimes is unconscious bias of the person who interviewing you... sometimes it's not just getting the... option of getting into the interview. So... I had experience lots of different experiences. Sometimes they so focus on your disability, which is irrelevant when you are going for a job, which really doesn't... your disability doesn't affect the job.

Zimona 10:08
That's quite true.

Amere 10:08
The job is by itself. You absolutely study that... you have got a degree on something, or master or something, and you go for the job because your confidence, you can do it. You've been practiced for many, many time. But the first things is that person come up with some unconscious... like they think about, Oh, what would happen if I was blind, so I wouldn't be able to do this... and that's one of the things, we call it unconscious bias. They they putting themselves, instead of asking you, Okay, you got the job. Now, can you tell us, how can we make it easier for you to be more proactive in your job?

Zimona 11:00
Yeah, that's so true. So if you could design an ideal workplace, what would it be like?

Amere 11:05
A workplace for everyone - people could... bring in all the ability and showing their strength, instead of focussing on their disability, focussing on their ability. For instance, in my work, instead of me having a nine-to-five work, I have work which... sometimes I work from home, sometimes I'm in the office, I have a same desk, because I don't... find if they changing the desk every day, it would be difficult for a blind person - you may get used to it after a while, but while you're getting used to it, you're missing out of many things.

Zimona 11:53
Yeah, that's so true. So that's something you had to advocate for, those...?

Amere 11:57
It depends of your management. You know, you talk to a manager and they understand it, and they setting up a desk just for you. And after that, you get to know the colleagues, and you can move around. You know, it take, like, let's say, a few weeks for someone for another 1-2-3 months. So it depends of your disability, depends of your ability, your strength.

Zimona 12:22
100% agree. I think that's just perfectly worded. It was really lovely chatting to you today, Amere. You've listened to Emerging Voices on SYN, and up next is 9 to 5, Dolly Parton.

Adam 12:36
And you're back with Emerging Voices on SYN. That was 9 to 5 by by Dolly parson. And did you know that the beat to 9 to 5 by Dolly Parson was made from the tapping of Dolly's own nails? I'm here... Adam, with my co-host, Teo.

Teo 12:58
Hello, Adam. How are you doing today?

Adam 13:01
Pretty good. We're going to be talking about ideal workplace for you as a person with disability, and also your previous work and volunteering. So first of all, we'll talk about previous work and volunteering. What previous experience have you been able to experience?

Teo 13:21
The previous work that I've been experiencing, I've done Channel 31 for like, three months. And it was really good. I really loved it. I did... a lot of editing on it. I did a lot of the [?telegraph], which is really good.

Adam 13:37
Yeah, so Channel 31 obviously... I've also done work with channel 31 through the... actually, another variant of the Emerging Voices program, with the Attitude program. And I also did editing and autocue at one stage as well. And also, yeah, I actually did filming for their awards show as well. So working camera operating. So... yeah, I'd say that was, that was a great experience, and it kind of leads us into the next question, which is the ideal works... workplace.

And in my opinion, the Channel 31 one is actually quite far up there. It was a nice... small environment. You had your own sort of desk that you could work with, and it, I mean, it wasn't really that... was a nice quiet... space that you could get over-stimulated with, and you could just work on your own. But, or if you need any assistance, just go to your coordinator and ask for assistance. So that's... generally one of my best work place, ideal workplace. Teo, how about yourself?

Teo 14:55
I would say the same. Absolutely said the same. It's the same story here. Channel 31 has really good... workplace environment. It's fantastic, yeah... everything you said is true. I agree.

Adam 14:56
Yeah, I'd say it's it's just the community, community style in general. I mean, we've got, obviously, the lovely studios it's in here too, which, and the work environment as well... it's just all about community, helping it, helping everyone out...whenever needed. And if, if someone's confident in their own ability, then that's also good. A nice... yeah, nice low, stimulation space. However, you obviously always get in the situation to get to places here, of getting into the interview, the interview to get the position. What are your, some of your items you like to ask for, or even just considerations to ask for, in an interview environment?

Teo 16:04
I would probably say, for me, in interview environment, I would probably say, like, make the room as quiet as possible so they can, like, [?try not...] to hear, like, so many loud noises everywhere, so it's like, Oh, I can't really focus on the interview very well. What about you?

Adam 16:22
Yeah, no, absolutely, one of the main considerations in any interview... I mean, even the platform itself, I feel like being able to see the person face to face, like, even if that's online over Zoom or Teams or... whatever teleconference meeting, I feel like that's a lot less intimidating than if it's over a phone, for example... because with the phone, you kind of, you're not really speaking to anyone in particular, you're kind of speaking to a random voice on the other end that you've never met before in your life, so... I don't know, there's kind of that intimidation... there...

Teo 17:03
Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah, completely. I'd all agree with that.

Adam 17:07
Yeah. And also, I feel like it's very important as well to just have a little consideration from the employer, to just being able to ponder over the question that you got, you've just been given. Like... yes, you can prepare as much as you want for any question, but as someone that isn't neurotypical myself... it's quite hard to be able to prepare for questions that are unknown in a way, so you kind of just have to... just asked for a little bit more leeway when... you are faced with those challenges, and... I don't know if you agree with that yourself Teo, or...

No, I do agree with that.

Yeah, yeah. And, I mean, luckily we also have that... ability to ponder the questions here as well on SYN. So thank you for your time in in this space, it's been a pleasure to... talking to you.

Teo 18:08
Thank you so much.

Adam 18:09
Coming up next it, Ronan Keating is with you. No, Ronan Keating - With You... cating. Two completely different things. The song With You by Roman Keating. You're listening to Emerging Voices on SYN.

Ryan 18:26
That was With You by Ronan Keating, and you're listening to Emerging Voices on SYN Radio. I am Ryan, and I'm joined by my very good co host, Imogen.

Imogen 18:38
Hi there.

Ryan 18:40
So I think we I think you have some questions you want to ask me?

Imogen 18:44
Yeah, today we're... talking about disability in employment, so we're going to have a chat about our experiences. So what one thing that I always find fascinating to ask people in general is, what was your first job?

Ryan 18:59
Hmm, well, if I'm truly honest, I can't really remember that far in my past, but I... can tell you that it was truly amazing.

Imogen 19:10
It was a good experience, even if you can't quite place your finger on it.

Ryan 19:13
Well, yes, it was. It was a long time ago.

Imogen 19:16
Fair enough. Fair enough, got to focus on the present, sometimes.

Ryan 19:20
Sometimes, but it's always good to look into the past.

Imogen 19:23
Yeah. Well, what is the best employment experience that comes to mind for you? Was it... it might be something recent...

Ryan 19:30
Mm... well, I think my most favorite, I think my most favourite... position of of a job was uh during, doing my Channel 31 experience.

Imogen 19:42
I think a few people, it's come up on a few different segments, people seem to have had really good experiences with Channel 31.

Ryan 19:49
Yeah. So mostly we were filming... a news and some news episodes and some and I think some sporting episodes as well. Yeah, so we each had a turn of the camera...

Imogen 20:05
Oh, you got to do the camera work, the actual filming.

Ryan 20:08
Yeah.

Imogen 20:08
Oh, that would have been great.

Ryan 20:10
And we did a bit of the sound work as well.

Imogen 20:13
So you got to dabble a bit in a few of the behind the scenes areas. And... was it just sort of an introductory thing? You get to learn the basics?

Speaker 1 20:20
Yeah... something like that, yeah. And we also did a little Voice Memo work.

Imogen 20:26
So like voiceover work, announcing...

Ryan 20:30
Yeah, something like that.

Imogen 20:32
Oh, that sounds like an absolute blast.

Ryan 20:34
It was an absolute blast.

Imogen 20:36
And that was over a number of weeks.

Ryan 20:38
Yeah, that was... over a few weeks ago, yeah.

Imogen 20:42
Oh, fantastic. How have you found your experiences in seeking employment, participating in interviews and feeling included in the workplace?

Ryan 20:54
Well... I feel 100% with all of them, because I'm pretty flexible with finding some new... jobs. I'm definitely okay with being included and getting along with other people in the workspace. So, yeah, I...

Imogen 21:10
You've had really positive experiences.

Ryan 21:13
A lot of positive experiences.

Imogen 21:15
That's fantastic. And are you currently working?

Speaker 1 21:19
Well, I'm a current... well, I'll be starting at a new... place called the Funky Farm on Friday.

Imogen 21:26
What a great name (THEY LAUGH) What does the Funky Farm do?

Ryan 21:29
So it's... kind of... like an animal sanctuary where we get to, handle animals, care for them, and build new enclosures for them.

Imogen 21:40
Oh, wow. Do you know what sort of animals you're likely to be working with?

Unknown Speaker 21:45
Well, I'll probably be working with a koala.

Imogen 21:48
Are you serious? This is... like most people's dream job, I think - the idea of just like, cuddling koalas all day. I'm sure there is a lot more to it than just cuddling koalas.

Ryan 21:56
Yeah, that's a... lot... more than that.

Imogen 21:59
Oh, so are you involved in their, likely to be, likely to be involved in their their care, feeding enclosure? I'm not sure. I mean, as far as...

Speaker 1 22:07
Well, I'll be interacting with them, as well as building an enclosure, and countless other things as well.

Imogen 22:15
Oh, fantastic. That sounds like an absolute blast.

Ryan 22:18
It is.

Imogen 22:20
Did you have any questions that you'd like to ask me?

Ryan 22:22
Sure... what was your first job in the world?

Imogen 22:26
Now, this wasn't like... an official job, but my first job was busking with my sister at Christmas when I was five years old.

Ryan 22:35
Okay...

Imogen 22:36
Not the answer you were expecting. (THEY LAUGH)

Ryan 22:40
I'm curious... what does that mean, busking?

Imogen 22:43
Well, what it meant for me personally was that I dressed up in a Christmas dress, matching with my sister, we wore Santa hats, and we stood, closely supervised by our grandparents outside the Australia Post Office, which was right down the road from where my Dad worked, and we played Christmas carols on our violins.

Ryan 23:05
Wow, that's amazing!

Imogen 23:08
We did every year for a number of years, and I have to say, I mean, I appreciated the pocket money at the time, like it was just going into a bank account - this, you know, a savings goal when I was old enough to know what to spend money on... but yeah, we actually made a bit of coin, I have to say.

Ryan 23:25
Wow, that... sounds like you really enjoyed yourself there.

Imogen 23:28
Yes, I'm not sure how much the passersby enjoyed it after a couple of hours. But luckily, at five, we were like, we were five and seven at the time. It was just short bursts. So... looking back, I would not, I would not subject anybody to repeated Christmas carols. (LAUGHS) Anyway, this has been Emerging Voices on SYN. We've been talking disability employment, Christmas carols, busking and a few things in between. Coming up, we have the [?Barrayai] by Shervin, which is a fascinating song that was nominated for a Grammy. I urge you to look it up, learn more about the artist, learn more about the song and the story behind it - but for now, just sit back and enjoy it. (MUSIC) 

Hi, this is Emerging Voices on SYN. I'm Imogen, and I'm joined with Teo, Adam and Amere... and we are just going to have a bit of a chat about our experiences with employment, any barriers that we've faced, and the general experiences of being a disabled person in the workforce, which comes with its own set of marginalisation, overt biases, implicit biases, or, I think unconscious biases, the general term that's used - although that has its own issues as well, but that's another interesting topic to dive into. Yeah, so Amere, I think that you are currently working in social inclusion in a corporate organisation, is that correct?

Amere 25:03
Yes, yeah. I've been working there for four or five years, and it's been a great experience with challenges and with good experiences. So...

Imogen 25:15
So it's been... you're in a position that you're enjoying. I think that you mentioned that you applied for a great number of jobs... (LAUGHTER) What was the number?

Amere 25:26
Absolutely, as a... person with disability, we often have to justify and explain ourselves over and over. So I applied for over 117 jobs... and lots of interviews, which...

Imogen 25:42
I think you said about 80 interviews, and that was for one job, to get one job. In the end, this was all in one batch.

Amere 25:48
Well, like... in one year, I went through all of that - to get to get.... A job. Yeah, you know, it's not about applying to one company, 80 interview. It was lots of different companies, and...

Imogen 26:05
117 different companies. (LAUGHTER)

Amere 26:07
Yeah. And... those were advocating for people with disability as well. It was most fascinating. Some of them, I wouldn't mention name, but there was like... they had 300 questions before getting to the interview. And when you get into the interview, you just have people asking you more about your disability other than actual job.

Imogen 26:07
So you're not really treated like a you're treated like a disabled person they're curious about.

Amere 26:42
Yeah, absolutely.

Adam 26:44
It is interesting how, how companies work like that, like they should be the voice of disability, but they're... kind of there to more tick the boxes that they've been set out to do. So...

Imogen 26:56
If they have boxes. (YEAH...)

Amere 26:59
It's more like the person who interviewing, like they're not equipped with the right tools to actually focus on your ability than, rather than your disability. For instance, if I go in for... I don't know, social worker, it's not relevant if I have a driver license or not, because these days, you can get a taxi and stuff to get to the client.

Imogen 27:22
Oh, and lots of the time, you can also do things on telephone or video link, yeah. I mean...

Amere 27:28
Recently my wife and I, we found out about... you know, there's a doctor with disability - and that was fascinating for me, and that's come back to unconscious bias.

Imogen 27:44
Well, that's where representation is so important. I think one of the things that I really learnt the hard way and through the experience with employment I had, is that disabled people are often hidden from view. There's often this... kind of accidental segregation that occurs, where a lot of people go through their lives without interacting with many severely chronically ill or disabled people - or if they are, they're very superficial interactions, so they really don't have much literacy around disability and around navigating life... and as a result, there's a lot of fear and apprehension and aversion that comes with that, and it's often disabled people are seen as a risk that you need to manage.

Amere 28:35
Yes, and that's what we we don't get in to the door, yeah? And when you are accidentally get into the door...

Imogen 28:44
They're terrified (Yeah!) Of doing the wrong thing, or if they're told that they're doing the wrong thing, despite doing their absolute best, yeah?

Amere 28:53
And sometimes, you know, like... I can only talk about my own experience... which has been really awarding for me, because I go through the work, I'm an open book, I challenge everyone. I say... I make joke about my own self because I'm not, and I advise people to not joke, because it's my own thing, you know, if I bump to the wall, I can make a laugh out of it, but you can't laugh at me, laugh WITH me, yeah? And when you're making it soften, they actually realising there are things can be adjusted...

Imogen 29:34
Yeah, but it ends up being like a job on top of your actual job. So you're doing your job, but you've also got the job of putting everybody else at ease and teaching them how to interact with and accommodate a disability.

Amere 29:48
Sometimes it's exhausting, or... yeah, you know, 50% of the time [INDISTINCT COMMENTS] Let's put a weight on it.

Adam 29:57
It's good though, at the fact thatyou... can kind of joke about it to remove that taboo nature of, you know, the thoughts of, you know, not being able to discuss disability.

Imogen 30:13
Yeah, humour is such a great tool. So I did a few years ago a course for disabled women on standup comedy... and it was one of the most freeing experiences of my life. I've performed a stand up set on disability and chronic illness... a couple of times since, and just... it changed so much how I inhabited my own body and how I thought about myself and how I presented it. I think at the time, I hadn't relapsed, so I was still a very like able-bodied-presenting person. So I was, I had invisible disabilities, but it felt like... I had this sort of split existence where I presented to the world and people assumed that I was entirely abled, and I had to internalise the experience of chronic illness. 

And it was this thing that existed in my life and in my body, but it didn't get included in any of the rest of my interactions or... and it really helped, I think doing that the standup comedy really helped integrate that and make me feel more like a whole person. Rather than like I had to leave a fair bit of myself behind... when I was showing up and talking.

Amere 31:19
It's kind of saying your whole self to the... bringing your whole self to the work, but you can't really, like, if I bring my own whole myself into the work, there are bit of me which had, like... focussing on my disability and needs, I can be criticising someone about... workplace adjustment, and you can just hang on on that, and you know that's lead you to... unemployment, actually.

Imogen 31:53
Yeah, oh it's such balancing act. It's a juggle, right? Like, because you have to... there's an element of self preservation. But then there's also an element of, if we don't speak up for our own rights, nothing changes. (Absolutely, yeah.) It's... such a juggle. So yeah, welcome to the... precarious balancing act, which is life as a disabled person... and one of the things that, again, when I was at my workplace, I was always banging on about, but I was surprised by how little people thought about it. It's that even the workplaces that are talking about disability inclusion and putting a lot of effort into it, the standards are so low, so even if they are far above the... average standard, it's still not good enough. 

We want...equal representation. We need disabled people at every level of the workforce, not just entry level jobs. One of the biggest issues with employment with disabled people is you've got over-qualified people struggling to get anything other than entry level positions. We're talking about people with PhDs who might end up in... Disability Employment Services getting placed at entry level workforces. And there are some great programs that help get people in the door, but they're very rarely for senior positions... and they very rarely give much of an opportunity for advancement, and... like the whole workplace culture can become less and less accessible -depending on, you know, your level and your seniority.

Adam 33:34
Yeah. I mean, when you talk about the voices of of people to speak up. I mean, one thing that has been of late, has been the advocacism of Dylan Alcott - he's been trying to get people onto the television with people with a disability, just to make at least the visual aspect it would be normalised to see people with disabilities on television. So... (Absolutely!) So I hope that...

Imogen 34:09
We've got Nas, an ABC journalist who's absolutely fantastic, and I love seeing all of her correspondence, but she's one of the few other than Dylan Alcott. And I think there's another... another couple. But you know, if you think about all of the people you see on TV, people with disabilities are, what are we? 20% of the population? Definitely not 20% of the people you see on TV.

Adam 34:32
No. It's... just incredible that. I mean, obviously it's the thing. The saying is always, you can't be what you can't see.

Imogen 34:44
Absolutely.

Adam 34:44
But if... the thing is, you can't see anything on television.

Imogen 34:51
Then you don't hear the stories in general day-to-day life. Or, you know, go to the doctor and have a disabled doctor or a disabled teacher. I mean, it was... Stella Young did a great story about how she was doing her teacher placements. For those who don't know, Stella Young was a fantastic disability advocate who died a little over 10 years ago. She did standup comedy and did a lot of...

Amere 35:13
Look her up. Yeah, really fascinating.

Imogen 35:15
Absolutely. And she told a great story about... on her teaching placement, when she was finishing her training to become a teacher, the... she got halfway through a legal studies class, and a student turned around and said, When are you going to do your speech? And it turned out that the student, the whole time had been expecting her to give an inspirational speech - because that is the only time that he had ever come across a disabled person at school, was coming to do a motivational speech - not to be his teacher, not to be just a general part of the staff and services in the school.

Amere 35:50
That's really sad, isn't it.

Imogen 35:52
And it's also still, I think, a really common experience.

Amere 35:55
It is indeed.

Imogen 35:57
All right, so we've been talking about employment disability on Emerging Voices, on SYN. Thanks so much for your time,everybody.

(all) 36:07
Thank you. Thank you for having us on. (MUSIC)