Halting Hate, Finding Kindness

Welcome to the Independent Assessment, a new podcast produced by Radio 1 RPH in partnership with
Advocacy for Inclusion. This podcast is made possible with support from the Community Broadcasting
Foundation and Hands Across Canberra. I'm Seymour. And I'm Craig Wallace. The Independent
Assessment takes a look at disability issues in Canberra, beyond the parliamentary triangle.
Join us as we dive into reform, politics and culture with curiosity and a sense of humour.
It'll be playful, curious, provocative and possibly a bit raw at times, but most of all this will
be unfiltered and completely unofficial. We'll be talking to guests, introducing some regular
segments and mostly trying to fill an hour with unscripted talk. There will be pop culture.
There will be nerd culture. There will be disability culture. There'll be Canberra chat. And there
may even be Scottish pirate metal. But what there won't be is official positions and takes from
organisations because you can get them somewhere else. We'll be offering our independent assessment
of the month in disability politics and Canberra life. And the best thing is we won't charge it to
your NDIS package if you are lucky enough to still have one. This month, we are looking at whether
it is possible to turn back the tide of rising hate speech and disinformation about disability and
other people in the community. Why is this an issue? What would it take to get this on the agenda?
How and why is the ACT's International Day of People with Disability program putting a spotlight on
this? To discuss these and more, today's guests are Dr Ashley Hoare and Ravi Krishnamurti.
Our interview with Dr Hoare, who is one of the lead speakers at next week's... Halting Hate,
Finding Kindness, My Day event was recorded earlier this week.
Each week we offer our independent assessment on the world of politics, culture, disability and
Canberra with a patronising medical model verdict on the month that was. For those who aren't
familiar, the idea of the independent assessment comes from a scheme under the previous Liberal
government to create functional capacity assessments that essentially put people with disability in
boxes. This eventually was abandoned, but it appears to have come back, and that's the reason we've
ended up with it as our podcast name. So, Craig, let's start with politics. What have you got that
you'd like to talk about this week? Yes, and indeed, the assessments of prison are zombie-like in
our political landscape to dominate the lives of people with disabilities again. From my politics
highlight was, um, it's not really a highlight, it's Hanson's efforts to generate rage.
I don't know about you, they felt a bit sort of sad and performative to me.
It's like she's playing out of greatest hits again. So the kind of burka stunt that she pulled,
well, I think A, that's something that she's done before, and B, it's a kind of issue and publicity
stunt in search of a problem. If you kind of think about it for any length of time, she's probably
the only person to have ever worn a full burka in the chambers of an Australian parliament.
So what's the kind of issue? You know, look, over the last 25 years of terrorist incidents that I
think have kind of, you know, fuelled Islamophobia, literally none of them have been done by people
in cultural dress. The film that she is rage-baiting people about being sort of banned in
Parliament House is all over YouTube and is publicly available. So, you know,
I think this kind of tells us a lot about the sort of search for an outrage vector that Hanson and
other populists are. are undertaking. It's a real kind of indicator of the tone and tenor of that
kind of populism. C, what were your politics highlights? I mean, just on the handsome one,
it kind of summoned up for me the image of like an ageing rock star trying to get a bit, like
trying to reincarnate those old days. It's sad, but unfortunately she has so many followers,
which is just really disturbing. But yeah, I mean, for me in politics, there was a lot going on for
the Liberal Party. on all fronts. So at the ACT, we saw the resignation of Leanne Cassidy as leader
and Jeremy Hansen as deputy. And then every other state or several other states seem to be having
these leadership changes within the Liberal Party, plus the stuff at the national level. And for
me, definitely at the ACT level, it's concerning because we do need a strong opposition to hold the
Labor government to account. They've been in power a very long time and we do need people...
They're paying attention to the politics and not fighting each other. So I really would like to
see, despite the fact that I'm not ever really likely to vote for them, but I would like to see the
Liberal Party actually play a role in politics and that accountability role. And I'm not sure
whether we'll see that from Mark Parton as he's coming into the chair. Really curious about your
thoughts on that change. It's been interesting to see sort of a series of Liberal leaders topple in
all the states. I think this points to what is clearly an internal struggle in the party between
moderates who are trying to at least salvage some kind of reasonable position on climate change and
some of the Conservatives who are driving back on that issue and also on social issues. I mean,
it's about the 50th anniversary of the dismissal this month. And one of the sort of things about
the Liberals is they don't do well in opposition. They get really, really impatient. Labor tends to
sit there with an opposition leader. Think about Beasley. Sometimes for far too long, the Liberals
are kind of like, if you don't perform, you're rolled in a couple of months. And so it often makes
for a kind of long and rocky period in opposition because you don't get any leader being given a
chance to really connect with the public. It will be very interesting to see how Mark goes with his
sort of obvious media skills. Yeah. I just want them to take a beat and start putting forward some
policy. really, so we can have some more discussions. I want an opposition that holds this ACT
Labour government to account and also holds the administrative apparatus in the ACT to account.
That is very, very necessary. It's a really important function. In a jurisdiction like Canberra,
we've just got one level of government. Should we get under some culture highlights? Do you have
any culture highlights, Sue? I mean, to be honest, I've spent most of the month really sick and
stuck in bed. Thankfully, I got sick just in time for the new Outer Worlds game. So to get to play,
there's a video game set in space, but it's kind of about ultra capitalism going wrong. It was good
fun, but some of it was supposed to be satire that hit a little too close to home about certainly
the commodification of people's lives and the way that people are treated when they're no longer
considered functional in society. So fun game, but some commentary there.
But otherwise, I was a bit disappointed being sick first spring out season, which is Canberra's
Pride Festival. There was some really good stuff on that I didn't get to go to, but lived
vicariously through others, which was... Yeah, it would have been really nice to get out. So coming
off that, one sort of cultural thing that's concerning is there was a report that came out in the
ABC about the experience of homophobia in the workplace for one person around people sort of
discussing the violent attacks that have happened on Grindr, which is a dating hookup app.
And honestly, what was most disturbing for me is how little it surprised me that that still happens
in Canberra. Homophobia didn't end when we got marriage equality. even myself,
I've had all sorts of slurs screamed at me out of cars in front of police stations, in the middle
of Braddon. It's something that's not gone, but I think the attention isn't there on it. And it was
a bit of a time of reflection that there's a lot of joy and good stuff in the community, but
there's still a lot of hate there as well. Yeah, absolutely. And I think sometimes we sort of make
assumptions about Canberra as a progressive city where there's none of that,
but actually... of sort of bubbles of people that there actually are. And this is a really growing
city where, like, are the values of progressivism going to hold in an expanded city where there's
lots of people that maybe haven't grown up in that culture? My sort of cultural highlights was,
but again, it's a bit like watching real life, so there's a bit of trauma attached to it,
is the Apple TV series Pluribus. It's a quite clever...
slight take on what it's like to be the one person within a giant global event that changes the way
people see the world and view the world and experience it through the eyes of one person who is
right, but that person also becomes sort of fixated and very much driven along a particular path.
I'm not trying to give spoilers away here, but it's well worth a watch, very well produced. I've
also been catching up on the film, I think Michelle Yeoh is the star of it. Yeah, that film.
Yeah, everything, everywhere, all at once. And I kind of looked at it, actually thought,
as a disability advocate, what kind of struck me was, like, the central character is sort of
wandering around between all of these different multiverses and doesn't have enough time in any of
them to actually fix problems or address issues. It really kind of, it describes the way you're
kind of torn. between multiple spaces and places at once. And it feels like disability advocacy at
the moment. I don't know what you see. I absolutely agree. And I mean, in my day job, I tried to
focus on the health aspects, but of course, our lives don't operate in silos and trying to keep
across the issues that are affecting. people's entire lives and the flow-on effects and where the
advocacy is needed in the bigger picture. There is so much going on and so much that needs to
change. But how do we keep across all of it? It's a real challenge. It is a real challenge. And in
ACT politics, it's been a busy month as well. I'd just like to briefly talk to two issues,
both of them in Mr. Berry's portfolio. I actually think speak to different weaknesses and strengths
of the sort of administrative capacity in the ACT at the moment. So we had the The big issue around
the revelation that the ACT had not drawn down on the specialist disability accommodation funding
for housing, this housing system is hideously complicated. I've struggled to understand it,
let alone explain it in the media. But it is, I think, a real disappointment,
given where public housing is at, that we have not been claiming all this huge bunch of money that
could be used for modifications. In our advocacy, there's just lots and lots of people in housing
filled with mould, inappropriate mobs, like there's work to be done there.
The flip side of that to me was the actual, the very quick action on the Sandgate and Schools
Affair where the ACT closed. a bunch of schools really, really quickly after discovering there was
sort of kinetic sand with asbestos in them. So I was actually quite interested by Mark Parton's
response to this, and I think he made a misstep. So he kind of came out and said, oh, well, why did
the ACT close all of these schools really quickly and are they overblowing the risk? Well, I think
making maybe even comparisons to COVID. But actually, if you were the ACT government, wouldn't you,
given the history of asbestos in this town... Oh, yeah. be precautionary yeah i mean the the mr
fluffy saga it's played on for so long and it caused so much damage i know people who's who had to
like lose their homes because of it it's yeah it's an understandable thing and i'm kind of proud of
the territory for taking such quick and like effective action yeah who knows i mean i don't
understand what kinetic sand even is and how this works but you'd have to think children playing
with something that they could be inhaling or whatever is a risk and i like that The Mr. Fluffy
thing, it hung around. It's like still affecting the ACT government's balance sheet. Absolutely.
So why wouldn't you do something about it? We got some highlights from sort of, I guess, disability
culture or community sector worlds. I mean, it's been AGM season, annual general meeting.
Sorry for the jargon. For me, organisation, being able to go and participate, hear back from
organisations I might be a member of, but I might not be directly involved with, that's been great.
Being sick though, I have had to attend a lot of things online. And gosh,
I wish more venues had good hybrid setups because like equal participation, we do need to be able
to accommodate that. And so many venues in this town. They're just not adequately set up or no one
checks the equipment. And when you're paying for a venue, you'd hope that that's the case. So as
much as it's been great to see a lot of the clever and efficient work,
given the financial environment that a lot of orgs are working in, I want to participate in
meetings. And when the tech doesn't work, that's a barrier that we really could address better.
Yeah, we're five years into this. And IGM is meant to be like the keystone.
of ending their year. And you're kind of going, if they can't do this for AGM, then are you going
to be able to do it any other time? So I think it's a totally valid call out. For my sort of, I've
got one in disability cultures and disability community, there is a storm brewing around democracy
and openness in disabled people's organisations and some sort of part of the storm causing it,
I think. But there are others kind of on board with this as well. And it's about the extent to
which people are speaking out and pushing back against. punitive NDIS changes.
And I think a gathering sort of frustration and tension between organisations that are now much
larger and have got governance responsibilities and their sort of obligations and history as member
-based organisations where, you know, every member needs to get a voice, be able to stand for the
boards of those bodies without sort of vetting and management. and corporatisation, and it will be
interesting to see how this plays out. I mean, it's kind of a bit of a wicked problem in that the
reason those organisations have got the money that they have is because they are member-based and
authentic and really good, but at the same time, having all those money and all the grants and
projects puts a real strain on you. I mean, like, we've seen that. just in our own organisations
here, right? There's a tension in managing. Yeah, and it's hard to maintain that kind of critical
friend relationship with funders when they're not willing to give you any leeway to criticise them
publicly. You've got to, to speak up for your members, but they've got their hands on the purse
strings. So it's a tricky one, but I think it's going to take some bravery from...
certainly the larger national organisations to truly represent a lot of this. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. Like it's a real sort of tightrope and it's complicated, I think. So I think that we're
at that time where we need as assessors to render our assessment on the month.
Mine is very much informed by another thing we haven't talked about on the way through is I think
the truly troubling example of racial profiling by the federal police on that young Indigenous.
man in Woden. I was really troubled by that. And I've also been troubled by the kind of trying to
explain it afterwards and the public commentary on all of the kind of Facebook posts.
I deliberately don't read those things these days, but I can imagine from seeing these things in
the past, for me, the response from the police and media has also been quite worrying.
Just sort of the, oh, we don't racially profile. Okay, but why do we have the highest rate of over
-representation of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in our justice system in the
country? We have a very small proportion of the population, but they are over-represented compared
to anywhere else. Why is that happening? There has to be some element of systemic racism here. So
that has informed my rating, which is I'm sort of rendering November very, very frail and fragile.
It's not, you know, beyond the power of medicine, but boy. Like we're getting the paddles ready and
there's a ventilator in the corner waiting to be deployed. What about you, C? I may be feeling a
little more optimistic. I'm still pretty frail. But there has been some good stuff on the horizon.
But I think there's some hard work to be done. So, yeah, I'll sit with you on Frail and Fragile.
All right. So it's time to introduce our guest for today. We have Ravi Krishnamurthy,
who is the president of the Australian Multicultural Action Network and a community spokesperson
for the ACT IDA Steering Committee. Ravi's created spaces for individuals with disabilities,
particularly from multicultural backgrounds, to lead discussions and influence policies, programs
and public attitudes. and his efforts at advanced inclusion and representation, ensuring diverse
voices contribute to systemic change in a fairer society. Through his work with the ACT Disability
Health Reference Group, Ravi has worked to prioritise the involvement of people with disabilities
in decision making. And Ravi was the winner of the leader in inclusion category. within the 2024
Chief Minister's Inclusion Awards, quite rightly deserved. So welcome, Ravi. Thank you, C. Thanks
for having me here. And I work with C and Craig in so many platforms and different groups and
meetings that it's my privilege to be here. Thank you. I'm very pleased to have here Dr.
Ashley Hoare. Dr. Hoare is a Senior Lecturer and Researcher at the University of Canberra's News
and Media Research Centre. She specialises in the importance of equitable communication to advance
social inclusion, with a particular focus on understanding how marginalised communities engage with
and are impacted by representations of their needs and experiences in news,
digital and organisational communication. In addition to being a lived experience advocate for
disability inclusion, she has over 15 years experience in research, education,
community engagement and policy development. focused on expanding social equity for migrants,
refugees and people with disabilities. Welcome, Ashley. Thank you for joining us. Hi. Thank you,
Craig. Thank you so much for having me. So our first little segment here is around building your
own social support package. So imagine where you're... NDIS assessor and we're calling you to build
a social support package. So tell us about a hobby, a skill or an interest that you have that might
surprise people and tell us why we should care, why we should find it interesting. That's a very
interesting question. See, because so far I haven't discussed this in public with anyone. Look,
my secret hobby, I call it, is my passion for the carpentry.
There are tiny wooden objects, you know, I try to create at home. And to some extent,
I'm good in repairing my household items as well. You know, create these simple symmetrical
objects. It gives me a way to channelize. Sometimes you do get stressed,
you know, working in so many things. And this gives me that bit of peace of mind. Most of the time,
as we all know that, and, you know, I know others as well, you know, we meet each other in the
policy rooms and community forums and different advocacy spaces. People don't expect to see me
enjoy working quietly with tools and some of the sanding blocks and creating these little objects.
So that's where I find this carpentry is very grounding. It does give me a chance to focus,
problem solve and think something totally different and also express my own creativity.
And that's something that I really enjoy. And also having my own hearing disability and some
sensory regulations. This process to me is very predictable, tactile,
as well as calming to my mind. So that way I find this hobby is very,
very helpful. And apart from that, I enjoy teaching some simple woodworking techniques to the kids
in the community. I deal with a lot of children in the multicultural space, you know, and my
friends and some of the seniors. So it's really helping me to build. Nice community connection,
confidence and good peer support. And mainly for some of the people who feel a bit isolated.
It is good. For somehow if the support package can be added into the mainstream and that would
really help a lot. Ravi's woodworking program for social connection would be awesome. That's
getting funded. That is amazing. I don't know that we said this before on the independent
assessment, but that just gets an instant tick. Ashley, is there something that sort of sustains
you outside of all this, like a hobby or a passion? Is there something you want to share with our
listeners? I used to be a burlesque performer and I still love that world and I watch it from afar.
I have a lot of friends who do it and I just love anything that is a little bit, I guess, anything
artistic and fun and silly. that takes me out of some of the seriousness of what I do and what I
research and what I teach is really lovely. I haven't had the capacity or the time or the spoons to
do that kind of thing for a really long time. However, one of the things that I can do kind of
while I'm working or while I'm getting ready for bed or various other things when I'm getting ready
is that I listen to a lot of podcasts and I like to listen to a lot of lighthearted, silly podcasts
where people are talking about movies or TV shows and things that I grow. up on that I used to love
that society sometimes will see as this guilty pleasure and kind of laugh at you for. One in
particular that I love and really recommend is Sentimental Garbage because they talk about movies
from this lens of these are the kinds of, these are things with really, really feminine, girly
themes that we often have been derided for. I had people go, that's not a real movie or that's
silly to love. And they talk about those movies in this lighthearted, silly, fun way. And I listen
to that kind of thing all the time and really enjoy it. And if I had a lot of time, I would
probably do something like that myself. I would get together with friends and just discuss a movie
or a TV show or something that we loved growing up, like spend two hours talking about Bridget
Jones or Babe or... Don't tell mum the babysitter's dead. I was obsessed with that when I was
little, all those kinds of things. And just have a bit of a laugh and just have this warm,
lighthearted conversation about it. I love all that kind of thing. And so any chance I get to talk
about kind of a 90s pop culture, because I was born in the 80s, grew up in the 90s. Yeah, I love
that. And so I guess that's one of the things that I do have the spoons and time and energy for
now. And it sort of happens in and around my work. But if I'm honest with you, I do wish I had more
time and energy for more silly hobbies. because they are important and they do sustain you.
And you've made me realise that I need to carve out more of that time to do that as a form of self
-care. I'm glad I asked you. Burlesque is such a rich tapestry. I've only kind of discovered it
through some work that we did with Rubus Theatre. Just that there's a lot more to it and that women
are using it to kind of reframe some narratives around performance. How did you get into that?
Weirdly, I learned all of the reasons why it's so wonderful and why I should be doing it after I
started doing classes. I had a friend who had a voucher for a class and it was bring a friend and
it's half price or something. So we went and then we just met some people through doing that and
through then going to some of their shows. And it just opened up this whole world and this whole
understanding of what burlesque really is and what it means and the reclamation. the parody, the
celebration of all kinds of bodies and all kinds of abilities and all kinds of people and political
views, the political satire of it all, and just the fact that these were some of the most brilliant
people I had ever encountered in my life. And I just fell in love. But it was a weird thing where I
didn't seek it out with that knowledge, but I got that knowledge after going to those classes with
that friend of mine and then just became addicted. So it was about 10 years or so of doing...
gigs and performances and I competed in Miss Burlesque Western Australia a couple of times and had
a really good time. And then it's just over the years of just as I've been getting a little bit
older and a little bit more tired and a little bit more, I guess, not necessarily having the
energy. I have a chronic health issue that does cause a lot of fatigue. It hasn't been something
that I can realistically do alongside my academic career, but I'm still... Admiring it from afar
and love watching and supporting my friends who still do it. Yeah, it's an amazing world.
They just had The Apprentice Victoria, which is like a play on The Apprentice, but The Apprentice,
and it's for newer emerging burlesque performers. They had their competition, their annual
competition two nights ago. which was a really lovely event in Melbourne. I wasn't able to go,
but it sounds like it was fantastic and I've been ogling all the pictures. But yeah, it is a really
wonderful, supportive, positive, but also just a world full of very, like I just found a lot of my
people. It's a disabled burlist scene. Yes, and it's brilliant. Yeah, I've got this.
And yeah, there's an excellent performer living in the US at the moment, but Alyssa Kitt,
who is also an academic, but does a lot of really amazing advocacy.
But there's also a lot in Australia as well, Bella de Jack. And I know there are more.
There's a whole scene of amazing performers in Australia and internationally who very, very openly
and very, very... insightfully and generously will talk about disability and reframe and kind of
and that's what we need more of and I guess that's one of the reasons why I've chosen that example
to talk about today as well. We need those artistic spaces and creative spaces become so important
when you are experiencing any form of marginality or any form of exclusion and disability is no
exception and I think that We've come a really long way. There are still some norms in production
spaces in various kinds of contexts where you still see a lot of disability exclusion and this kind
of able-bodied norm sort of treated as the standard. So there's a long way to go.
It's not perfect, but the inclusivity that you do tend to see in those spaces and the knowledge and
the awareness is... In my opinion, I haven't really ever been able to replicate it in any other
groups that I've been part of. And I hope it just continues and keeps growing and getting better.
Ashley, how would you assess the state of our media discourse as we lurch to the end of 2025?
Oh, wow. That's a great question. This is an area where I'm in a little,
sort of weirdly in two minds about it because we have... In a lot of senses, I try to think about
all the ways that we've improved in terms of how we represent disability in the media. However, I
don't think that we've anywhere near caught up to the kinds of knowledge and understanding and
awareness that you see with some other areas. Not to say that those other issues, you know, that
any of it's fixed. I do, one of the things that we... that I've been doing some work on this year
with some colleagues is discourse around diversity, equity and inclusion. So sort of DEI discourse
and a lot of ideas and narratives around being woke, so to speak. And you do find in a lot of those
discourses that we are still seeing a lot of representation of disability as either this tragedy or
triumph with nothing in between and very, very limiting sort of conceptions of disability and a lot
of really... There is overt ableism in there as well. There's narratives around who deserves
support and who is really disabled and are you disabled enough?
We're seeing all of that, particularly on social media. Like any time that I log into Twitter,
there's always some new kind of debate going on about if a person can work, could they really be
disabled if a person can drive? Do they really need supports because they're obviously doing well
enough that they can afford a car or that they can drive? All these kinds of misconceptions about
disability that are really harmful. But I think a big part of it is that we still trivialise and
minimise and gloss over disability a lot, even in a lot of well-meaning discourses. And I think
that this really contributes to a lack of understanding because too many people are unwilling to
talk about disability, which then makes it harder to understand it. So I am also noticing in media
and social media and even sometimes political discourse, a lot of debates around terminology and a
lot of sometimes well-meaning kind of statements like focus on what a person can do.
Don't say disabled, don't say disability. And I think that this does a lot of harm. And I guess one
of the things that I feel like is at the moment making disability a little bit more difficult to,
or making ableism, sorry, difficult to combat or difficult to kind of transform is this idea of...
there being a lack of understanding or a lack of willingness to talk about disability at all. And
it is more covert a lot of the time than other forms of discrimination and hate speech.
I kind of noticed in the last little while, though, it's kind of flipped from there being a sort of
discussion that is about all these people need to do is go out and get a job and find work to...
idea that actually if you employ people with disabilities, we're potentially dangerous. And in jobs
that we're not qualified for or that we're leaping over other people in a meritorious process,
like how did, which is to me a fairly modest, tame, even conservative concept,
suddenly become a sort of swear word for the populist right. As you say,
this whole idea of who is deserving and who has merit, because I know that something that I've
witnessed and to a certain extent experienced myself is this idea of if you request any kind of
accommodation, you sometimes get this pushback about it being special treatment or you get asked if
you really need it because a lot of people with disabilities will a lot of the time not necessarily
look disabled or not necessarily present in that stereotypical way. And so that's something that
I've come across a lot is this idea of, Really limiting ideas of what disability looks like, but
also this idea, and we definitely saw that in Trump's discourse earlier in the year with that
really horrific plane crash in the United States. And he tried to blame that on DEI. And still
seeing things like the R word slur and various things in a lot of the comment sections when people
talk about any issue or event like that that happens. And I've definitely had people say, I once
was applying for a job a few years ago and I disclosed an accommodation in the process of doing so.
And then I was asked to provide some extra documentation to show that I've still been productive
since finishing my PhD, despite my limitations. But that wasn't a requirement of the initial
application process and wouldn't have been a requirement for... had I not disclosed that I had a
disability. So that was quite an eye-opening experience. And that's, again, what I was talking
about before, this kind of covert and subtle form of ableism that's everywhere. But it infiltrates
those broader, more right-wing, more overt kind of discourses as well. I think it helps fuel them.
And we don't make a lot of progress towards doing anything about those more overt forms if we don't
do anything about those more subtle forms as well. So that's something I've been arguing.
I would argue maybe some of the other covert forms are suddenly blooming into the daylight.
I don't know. The sort of Maha wellness discourse, you know, that they're healthy again and stuff
around autism and vaccines, but also... this idea that all we need to do is liver, you know,
eat lots of protein. Clean lifestyle. Yeah, clean lifestyles and we'll all be well again.
I mean, that's also, well, it's insidious, but it's also pretty out in the open. Being kind of told
or giving unsolicited advice about cutting out dairy or gluten to get rid of my muscle inflammation
problems, I would probably be able to afford. one of those smoothies that they're peddling. And
that's a dig at how expensive they are. But yeah, a lot of, and there's a form of, there's an
underlying thread of classism.
And that's why I'm really interested in intersectional research on these issues as well, because I
think with a lot of those kinds of ideas about health and wellness and what it means to be well,
not actually accessible to a lot of people and particularly a lot of people with disabilities or
anyone who has the compounded impacts of socioeconomic struggles in our current cost of living
crisis and disability. And then, yeah, there's something very limiting about just being kind of
told or being given that kind of advice. If you do this, then you'll be healthy. And also I could
throw back to a very old idea in which kind of inner wellness was linked to public good,
almost a religious concept. Yeah, and it seems to still be attached to there's this strange
morality around food and around being kind of anti-medicine and building your own health from the
inside. Like I've definitely seen really harmful disability discourses where people with chronic
pain conditions like the one that I have, Being shamed for using traditional medicine or being
shamed because of them. There will be, maybe they've made a social media post where they're
enjoying some ice cream or something and then someone will say, oh, that's why you've got pain. And
those kinds of things. This is, again, it's this war. It's, I call it.
this more covert and subtle form of ableism because a lot of people won't see it as ableism and
it's so pervasive and so ubiquitous that we don't it's really easy not to notice it and not to see
it as a form of ableism and as also as i was saying before a form of classism and in some respects
a form of racism as well and that purity this kind of almost puritanical sort of way of thinking
about it and if i've been able to cure or feel well or overcome something by doing these things
that everybody else should and there's no excuse for the people who don't. And like when people, I
know this was a huge issue in the real peak of the pandemic as well. And it's still, we'll see
these discourses about COVID now, but almost this idea that if you've contracted the disease and
had quite negative impacts from it, that's some kind of moral or personal failing on your part
because you didn't know how to protect yourself or you didn't have the, you hadn't done the work to
build the immunity through health or through clean living and all those kinds of things. And that
was really harmful and that was pervasive online and also to a certain extent in things like
marking and the really subtle messages we were getting through that as well. Or managing your
weight. I mean, I don't know if you've seen these memes that are sort of going around. It's often a
person that's, you know, a larger person in a scooter wearing a mask and a sort of commentary that,
well, actually that person just needs to manage their health. This constant kind of... tying of
weight and health together and also to morality I actually think feeds and fuels a lot of the
ableism discourses that we see today and even just the images you're saying the imagery that you
see where it's like there's this idea of what health looks like like as though you can see health
and a lot of the time you can't because I would present in most contexts at the moment you would
you wouldn't you wouldn't be able to tell anything about my health from looking at me and then you
get a lot of assumptions but then if you you could look at a person who looks in the more
stereotypical sense, less healthy. And I say that in air quotes because I realise this is an audio
thing. And that person could be far healthier than I am, for instance. But there's this
stereotypical sense of what ability looks like, what health looks like, what disability looks like.
And as I was saying before, because it is quite covert or we've been so conditioned to accepting it
and seeing it as the status quo, it's harder to challenge it. It's also... There's a defensiveness
when you challenge it as well that I've noticed, and that's what I find difficult. It's not to say
that it's more difficult than challenging things like racism and transphobia and queerphobia and
all those kinds of issues and misogyny, but I think that we've gotten a little bit further with
discussions about those harmful narratives that you two tend to get a little bit more support when
you call those things in. And I find that I often face a lot of defensiveness when I call out these
more, I don't want to call them nuanced, but they seem nuanced to a lay person, I would say, or to
someone with outlived experience. These more accepted forms, these more accepted narratives that
people wouldn't ever connect with ableism, I would say. I'm sort of noticing two things.
So I think there's like elements of the sort of progressive left that don't recognize ableism as
being harmful. in the same way that you would recognize racism and transphobia as being immediately
harmful. It is sort of mislabeled. But the other sort of thing I think that's going on is that
ableism seems like its resurgence is at an earlier point to where trans people find themselves,
to where First Nations people find themselves. What do you think are some of the sort of
characteristics of this moment and opportunities to repel? and traverse this.
Yeah. And one of the ways that I've noticed this is because I teach a lot in this area.
I teach a lot in, and it's not specifically disability focused, but it will be like I have a unit,
for example, called communicating with diverse audiences. And one of the things I'd noticed when I
adopted the unit and one of the things I've noticed in general when you're looking at anything that
talks about diversity is disability is often left out of it. And so I brought in a lot of content
on disability to kind of try to fill those gaps, which I found, which has been really, really
great. But one of the things that does, it's a, again, it's a subtle thing that I noticed. Well,
it's not subtle to me, but it's probably subtle to other people as you will. I've sometimes even
gone to trainings around diversity and inclusion. And it's actually only about gender or it's only
about gender and a little bit about multiculturalism and race. When you bring up disability or you
bring up issues around access, people are quite surprised or people are like, oh, we've never
thought of that. And so I have noticed that sometimes there's this absence of it, even in those
well-meaning spaces and those kind of social justice spaces where there's a lot about equitable
communication. And there was this false hope that came about during COVID, I would say, that we
were going to get a lot better with our awareness around disability and chronic illness. and the
need to be more inclusive. And to a certain extent, it was like we took a few steps forward and
then a massive leap back. And you'll know exactly why. It actually highlighted and I think
illuminated a lot of ableism that was always bubbling under the surface or was always there or a
lot of people have been talking about. It maybe made some more places aware of it and more people
listen and take note. But at the same time, it also turned up the volume on that ableism and on
those really harmful discourses of who is... already at risk and who is already,
you know, probably, you know, has under, you know, that was the word I was looking for, who has
underlying conditions and all these really harmful discourses that were essentially telling people
with disabilities that they, and also older Australians as well and people who are dealing with
both at the same time, that they are somehow less worthy of life or somehow less important and the
rest of the world doesn't have to slow down and try to keep. everybody safe.
It was all about this whole social Darwinism survival of the f***. idea. I remember feeling so this
this tiny little bit of optimism that finally I was seeing more accommodations and more flexible
working arrangements and all of those but then suddenly it was this huge issue of Now we're going
to take all of those away because the majority don't need them. The people who do need them are the
people who, and this is where I was saying, all those people should just stay home. Those people
don't need to go to work. Those people don't need to exist in the world. And I was like, you're
talking about a huge proportion of the population who do incredible things. And even if they don't,
even if they're not able to be quote unquote productive, their lives are very, very worthy.
And that was really upsetting to constantly see. And I was seeing that from people. in my own
friend groups, former friend groups, I should say. And I was seeing it, I was hearing it.
occasionally from family members. It was really quite demoralising and we've even lost a family
member potentially because of an infection and because of being really, really immunocompromised
and having to live in a world that refuses to protect people in those circumstances. And it just,
I honestly feel like now there are a lot of ways where it's gotten worse, but you'll see so much
discourse about how much we've learned from COVID and how much COVID opened all these
opportunities. for a more inclusive world and I think that there was a temporary almost
performative aspect of that happening but I actually and yet to a certain extent more people have
become aware I definitely know more people who have more awareness of disability and of disability
inclusion now than they did pre-COVID so it's a win in that respect but I also think that we've
just and shone a light on but also empowered a lot of people to be really, really ableist and to
have this really bizarre idea about what health looks like and who is deserving of health and who
is deserving of a quote-unquote full life. And that's been really demoralising to see and I don't
know what the answer is. Who needs to be in community and who benefits from being... Some of that
commentary that was sort of like, oh, well, if you don't like the community opening up, just stay
home. Yes. Some of it was really pointed. Yeah, and that was really upsetting.
And that was almost a direct quote from someone I knew that I just, you know,
I was getting invited to, you know, digital events and there was one that I went to where someone
said that and then the next time they invited me, I didn't go. And this is something that I found
in my research is that people, when people were experiencing or being exposed to those kinds of
attitudes and also if they were being exposed to things like COVID-related racism and that
scapegoating that we were seeing. That made them withdraw from social situations. It made them more
inclined to stay home, but it also made them withdraw from just going out into the world in
general. So I heard of people not picking up. I spoke to people who didn't pick up important
prescriptions and didn't go to the doctors and put off important things that they needed to do for
their own well-being because they didn't want to be out in the world because they were so sick of
being exposed to these attitudes and having these conversations and having people say things to
them. about how deserving they were. And even just, you know, if you have any kind of visible signs
of disability or even just difference in general, you will inevitably at some point have somebody
make a comment about it if that's happening constantly. And it was really heightened, particularly
during those lockdown periods and that period of anxiety and uncertainty. I can completely
understand why you would end up just withdrawing. So that was quite an upsetting thing to see and
also on a smaller scale to experience myself. And I only got the tip of that icebergs. Yeah.
So there is the question of what do we do about all of this? I think some aspects of this
phenomenon are that they sort of love flooding the zone. So they kind of love you regulating
because they can go and say that you're censoring them and intruding on their freedom.
And like they can make a, there's a martyrdom argument every time you do something about it.
And they are very good at taking the sort of language of progressive ideas and science and sort of
twisting them around the other way. So I'm kind of interested in the space of what is it that well
-meaning people and bystanders in particular are called to do at this time to sort of maintain a
connection with truth. and reality and fairness and equity. Yeah.
And honestly, that's one that I really wish I had a straightforward answer for you on that because
I honestly don't know the answer, but something that I think is really important, and there are two
sides to this, so I'm going to be really clear here, is that firstly, the more you actually know
and speak to and center knowledge and expertise from lived experience people on any issue.
The better you do in my experience and in the research that I've done, the more you tend to
actually understand because that knowledge and even academic knowledge, it needs to be driven by
that lived expertise. At the same time, though, it's really problematic to always be relying on
marginalized communities to educate you and to expend that labor. something that I call access
labour, but I think in the context of always asking for access and begging for access,
but I think it's also relevant to the labour of trying to get people who don't have lived
experience to begin to understand. Part of me, it's really difficult because there's this fine line
between making sure that you are informed and educated and that education is coming from lived
experience, but also not expecting or exploiting labour from lived experience people. And so I
think that there's a lot of work that needs to be done. And these are structural problems and they
need structural solutions. But I honestly think that there needs to be better education and better
representation of disability that is properly in a non-exploitative way where people are being
paid from. far beyond from the conception to implementation and evaluation stage.
People are being paid properly for that expertise. There needs to be an investment in that
expertise driving how things like disability are represented. Because a big problem is that we get
this binary of tragedy or inspiration porn and not much in between in a lot of representation of
disability. And I think this is one of the things that contributes to people having such a poor...
understanding of it and such a poor understanding of how different and diverse and how multifaceted
and how dynamic disability can be and how dynamic those experiences can be and so the amount of
people that have denied that I'm disabled or just looked at me and gone no don't be stupid again
that's a problematic term in itself and so you but you call out or call in these kinds of things
and there is as you were saying this It's defensiveness and it often does come from those well
-meaning places where people are doing really, have a really great understanding of a lot of other
issues or at least trying to. And they want to understand, but there's such a limit to our
understanding. And that's where I think in a separate conversation you and I have had, we talked
about how important nothing about us without us is, but with the caveat of nothing about us without
us, but pay us. Like, so I think the biggest thing is that there needs to be a commitment to
actually funding. work and programs and resources that can properly,
in a non-exploitative, non-harmful, trauma-informed way, actually be working with communities to
ensure that these representations and this information and this knowledge and even just general
media practice and communication practice. is driven by that lived expertise, but that that lived
expertise is properly valued and we're showing in a transparent way that we value it as well. I
don't know how on earth we're going to achieve that, but that's what I think we need to keep
fighting for. And I think that at a higher level and at a government level and at a structural
level, we need to see more commitment to being willing to put money. where our mouth is and stop
talking about DEI in this tokenistic surface level way where as soon as someone with lived
experience starts to ask any questions about your approach, it falls apart because no one's thought
it through. No one's consulted meaningfully with anyone with lived experience. And then you get
these surface level initiatives that are quite harmful. And then you get advice going out to the
public and training videos that no one with a disability would have signed off on.
or there are very few people with disability I've been consulted with and it gives you this very
limiting and limited view. And so that was a very long-winded way of saying I don't have a
straightforward answer, but I don't think these problems can be managed at an individual level and
we do need to see that more concerted effort to fund and prioritise them from our elected people.
Well, that call to action and for evidence-based work grounded in community I think is a...
a really good one. Well, thanks for joining us on the independent assessment. We always learn
things in these conversations, and we certainly have with this one. So, yeah, thanks very much for
joining us.
So, Ravi, it's good to have you on the podcast. One of the things that I've, and I should kind of
confess, we're working together at the moment pretty closely on the International Day. of people
with disability celebrations here in the ACT. One of the things I've really sort of come to respect
about you is that you're really willing to step up to the occasion. Can you tell our listeners a
little bit about where that comes from, where that desire to sort of help and to represent
community springs from in your life? Was there sort of an event in your life or someone that you
admire that made you go, hey, my... future pathways to be representing my community,
to be talking about my disability in public, to be fronting up in a, you know, really public way.
Not everybody does. As I always say, Craig, you know, I'm coming from a Cal community as well.
We migrated to Australia. This was almost 20 years ago. Within the culture of my background,
people don't talk about disability at all. Whatever happens, people, they just... stay cool and
then they try to show they are very powerful strength and then they don't talk about any of these
issues as as we hear from so many of these forums you know multicultural forums where government
and advocacy organizations they would like to bring more more of the Cal members to come and attend
and then get them aware of what is happening even now we see that Not many,
you know, they are keen in attending. It's just that culture is something good. So people do enjoy
music and, you know, attending cultural events. But apart from that, it's naturally somehow is,
you know, built in the system that people don't come over to talk about, you know, their issues.
It's affecting everywhere, you know, disability, palliative care, and including voluntary assisted
dying sessions that, you know, I try to advocate and then make people to attend. We struggle
everywhere. years ago i was just thinking myself it's like you know it's rather than everyone
pretending as if like you know we are all cool good you know everything is going exposed so why
can't we just talk about the issues because unless you just mention what's going on there won't be
any solution from outside always you know we just lean on our own family and then try to get
support but They are in the same pool as us. You know, we all go through the same thing day and
day. And there are some issues we don't find any solution. So that's where I thought, you know,
having this social cohesion, we talk a lot. So the community participation is something that is
very important. It's been, you know, I was just telling everyone, look, if you have a problem,
you need to, you know, tell and you need to seek support. Otherwise, you won't get it because...
that social and community participation is where I thought, you know, I should focus more. So
that's how I started my journey outwardly. And this really improves my own emotional degulation as
well because attending various group sessions and then, you know, talking to people of going
through similar issues. and we get to hear a lot and then we learn a lot too we share at the same
time we learn listen and learn that's another one you know which i wanted to mention here mainly
for the idea focus i would say creating that empathy and building building that empathy in the
system and um as as she was mentioning before during her conversation with you before,
reducing those unhelpful behaviors from the community is also, you know,
very, very important because having that empathy warm up in the society is needed for everyone.
Treat everyone gently. It helps building skills as well, you know, both tangible and,
you know, intangible. And then these are like transferable skills that, you know, we would like to
develop. What's the reaction been? with people that you know in the multicultural community to you
talking about disability and has there been has there been any pushback or have you had to convince
people that this is a good thing to do? In spite of me trying to do the advocacy for the community
there are still that social stigma in the Cal members mainly the Cal members because I can just
give a simple example. My own father, in this age, 84 years, sometimes he doesn't want to carry a
walking stick. My dad is from India and my dad is living here for many years. But in spite of that,
he still feels that, you know, if I carry the walking stick, you know, everyone will think, you
know, I'm too old and I can't walk without support. But that's when I just tell my own father, no
one thinks like that because... need a support and then you seek for it and then you just carry it
with you. There is no need to feel that what others may think or talk about you.
So that sort of a stigma is something that is still happening. And slowly, slowly, you know,
people are understanding and then, you know, that empathy part is developing. But there is a lot
more to do in that space. I mean, building on that and what about the sort of external?
stigma and discrimination because we know that there's been this real rise in anti-immigrant white
supremacist voices in recent years and we've seen those protests certainly in recent months and of
course ableism persists in so many areas of life. Are there some ways that you see that sort of
double discrimination play out for the multicultural disability community particularly?
Yeah.
I would say we really need a clear leadership from the government, media, disability organizations,
and various business sectors. As you mentioned that, you know, publicly naming that,
you know, the ableism and disinformation, misinformation, we're just talking, we're talking about
it a lot these days and hate speech, which is a real social problem at the moment. All these
require consistent messaging, not occasional statements from ministers. And I always say,
inclusion should be built into the system from the design it's not something that you just do as an
add-on after the full system is built don't try to add some space for the wheelchairs that's not
how it works start from the design phase and discuss with the people who go through the problem and
then let them talk and then give an option for solution and if we incorporate that sort of a thing
i think that's It's the best way of approach. And the other bit I would like to mention here is the
mainstream media and digital platforms. We use a lot of digital platforms these days and it does
create a lot of transformation in the society. We can see that a lot of positive things happening
as well as, you know, negative on the side. So responsibility and accuracy of the information which
is being shared in the media, it's it matters a lot. Because from what I see,
if we provide clear, factual information, that will reduce the harm and it won't cause too much of
an outrage, which is quite commonly happening as we see that. Education is one of the key programs
and that media literacy we talk about a lot. When I mention about media literacy, FECA,
which is the Federation of Ethnic Councils, which is a national body is running a major program now
for a media literacy awareness in Cal community which I am part of it I'm really you know
supportive of that program the proposals which is being submitted to us the critical thinking
respectful language and understanding the disability and respecting others with empathy these are
all the key message in there kindness is an action in simple step if I see that The accessible
communication and respectful interaction, when it is done properly, then it gives that
representation a good strength and treats everyone equal. We do talk about diversity,
equity and inclusion. We need to do a lot more than just what is in papers.
So that is something that I really look forward as part of my IDA appearance and my contributions.
And just without those sort of positive steps, government media are just sort of letting this
happen in terms of this hate speech. How does that affect your community? Does that sort of let it
get worse? Or is it kind of up to us to find the solutions ourselves? I would say,
whether it is direct or indirect, kindness is not just being nice with someone.
It's part of the framework for the equity. When that support comes from the government and
political leaders, does have a strong representation given by the public members.
Without the support from any of these major sectors, it's very difficult for people with
disability. There won't be much change happening. It also means the policies need to be built with
care, fairness and safety. The bureaucracy and all the suspicions which is happening behind,
it needs to be stopped very clearly. Halting hate is about, you know, replacing that fear.
With the understanding and replacing that misinformation and giving a proper truth. That's very
important. You said something really interesting just then, which is about, you know, being nice is
not being kind to somebody. I think that tells us Canberra's story. So one of the problems,
this city is sort of filled with people who are nice and practiced at being nice.
And one of the problems in this city, I think, is that we're the label of a progressive community.
And that sometimes means that people think that there's nothing to do beyond mouthing the words and
the slogans and the phrases that they've learnt, which are sort of, I mean, some people, critics of
this stuff would say that they're being politically correct, which is a horrible term, but like
they're being nice, they're trying to say the right things, but they actually don't do anything
while speaking a lot of words. What do you think about that? Is that a phenomenon you've observed
and how do we get around it? I think hate is contagious. That's what I would like to mention here
very strongly. It just spreads very faster. With the online media and without the facts,
with no empathy, it just goes. I talk a lot in mathematics because I did my degree in maths.
I call it exponential way. It's not linear. It just grows so quickly. And we've seen that with so
many things happening. around the world and even including within Australia, we see this is
happening so much these days. So digital platforms are doing a lot of good things at the same time.
It does cause a bit of, you know, damage. So what starts as few harmful comments,
it just quickly escalate into all this discrimination, social exclusion, and it does cause real
world harm for people with a disability too. And especially for the people from the multicultural,
CALD and intersectional backgrounds. There is a double stigma here because there is a racism,
there is a xenophobia and cultural misunderstanding. So these are the bits, you know, that everyone
needs to work on and have that openness to understand. Disinformation basically creates a false
stereotype. And people think... know, people with disability are burdens in the system. They are
incapable. We are too expensive, you know, for the society to maintain. And this sort of narrative
should quietly change. And that can only be done through a community advocacy like how we do in AF5
and other disability organizations. And eventually that will shape the policies and attitudes
and... the system it's a systemic change will happen in the future it's a long way to go but we all
contribute to it in the same way the political leaders and the government should fully support fund
and support all these things to come into effect and practical we know that public some sometimes
public debate turns into hostile and people just withdraw and then that makes them sometimes hide
their disability as well and they don't seek help so these types of you know the direct impacts
causes a lot of mental health there are a lot of you know hidden hidden issues here you know the
mental health and safety concern withdraw from the community participation that sort of a thing so
misinformation is a weapon unfortunately it's used in a lot of places which should be controlled in
a bit more effective way. Absolutely. You've spoken about several already, but I'm really curious,
Ravi, are there any activities, organisations or particular sort of movements that are giving you
hope for a less hateful future? The best part I've done in recent years is joining the Advocacy for
Inclusion Steering Committee. When I heard about... what is happening there, I immediately put my
hands up because I can see last year, I witnessed that I was part of the IDA event when the event
was moved from managed by the agencies into our hand where we have the flexibility of doing things
directly giving a positive impact to people like us or giving a direct solution.
That's one. And also, Through various advocacies, I was able to bring some basic changes,
if not huge for everyone, some basic changes. For example, Canberra Theatre, when they wanted to do
a redesign, which is happening in the city, I'm sure. I think they've started the construction. I
did tell them, look, include us from the design phase. Please include us so we can just tell you.
So there was a discussion about all these big trees giving fruits and,
you know, the seeds, you know, all this. beautiful European trees and stuff and that's when I said
look if you're planting all these acorn trees in the middle of the city around the theater and then
people you know with physical disability when they just walk around and then the acorn all over the
ground it does cause a bit of a safety issue so we do need to think about this design so that sort
of a thing is what I mentioned it to them and apart from that idea is creating a lot of a state in
the community, which is really good, which is what we want and which is expected. And it's
happening as we know that. Rainbow's Theatre is again another organization. They're working on
supporting, you know, people with disability. And as the award winner of last year from the Chief
Minister's Inclusion Awards team, disability, I think it's a disability reference group or
reference council. This sort of an initiative from the government is very positive. It's
encouraging because they do recognize people with disability. how they can bring positive change.
Social role valorization is a old concept but we still use it in current Kirk.
Giving that strength and support to people with disability makes them contribute more to the
community and community eventually we feel that they are not burden. They're not expensive to
maintain. They do contribute and we can utilize what they can. So that's sort of a message I would
like to mention here. I think we had a question on iDay, but I feel like maybe you've just answered
it beautifully, Ravi, and it's been a real pleasure to work with you. I don't think,
well, I think you know, but like the extent to which you've been an ambassador for it and that it's
lifted its sights and ambitions this year on what we pulled off has been You know,
something that the community representatives should be really, really proud of. We are progressing
really well. Bobby, that's been such a great interview that we've decided as the independent
assessors that we're going to hire you to be on our assessment team and part of the NDIA. And I
think there's about to be a phone call.
We're calling this segment the one-minute planning call. This is your opportunity if you could
assess anyone in the world and put them on an improvement plan to improve their empathy or their
kindness or their communications or what they're doing for other people. Who would it be and what
might you put in their plan? You can choose anyone in the ACT or Australia or the world.
Who's the best person? I would say Mr. Elon Musk, because he's very popular among the world.
And he's a popular contact for Mr. Trump, US President, and for my own kids at home.
So Elon Musk is the best choice I would go with. You know, I won't say not because of,
because, you know, he's brilliant. It's just because his brilliance is coming out,
you know, without much of a reflection. But sometimes... it does create some problems too, you
know,
rather than, you know, rockets exploding on a launch pad and things like that. So in true NDIS
planning style, this is, yeah, that's the person I would definitely,
you know, recommend for a capacity building plan. Yeah. It's capacity building? Well, what would
you put in it? Will you have a goal start? Would there be milestones? Look, improving the emotional
regulation is very important because have some form of weekly group sessions and active listening
and no interrupting and no tweeting during the session and no reinventing society halfway through
the conversation. That sort of a thing I would like to definitely mention here. And also learn the
art of pausing before posting. A simple mindfulness technique, you know, inhale,
exhale, then ask, you know, would this cause global chaos? If yes, then you draft your saved
message. That's one thing I would like to mention here. Strengthen the social and community
participation as well. Attend a few different community events, you know, per quarter where the
dress code is not really it. tech billionaire. That's important. Engage with people outside of the
Silicon Valley bubble. I myself lived in Silicon Valley. That was two decades ago. Engage with
volunteers, carers, seniors, even multicultural communities and disability advocates.
You know, this is important. A skill building approach, right?
Main homework, I would say, speak to at least one person who doesn't own a Tesla. So that's what I
would like to mention for sure. That's a pretty solid plan. Yeah, it's good.
So, yeah, thank you very much, Ravi. I got emotional regulation,
behavior management, and socialization goals out of that. So, yeah,
that's absolutely excellent. Well, thank you, Ravi. It's been a pleasure having you on the
independent assessment. Happy I-Day. Thank you, Craig, and thank you, C, and thanks, Sarah. Now I
think I can hear something approaching in the wild.
That's right, folks. That's our segment, The Elephant in the Room, where we're going to be naming
off an issue that nobody's talking about, but everyone should be. My Elephant in the Room this
month is a bit of a tangent for us, but... promise I'll bring it back round.
I'm nominating the public pool and green recreation infrastructure situation, the ACT.
So anyone who grew up going to Big Splash, for example, knows that it's closed for another summer.
It has been a big battle over the Phillip Pool, which is my local pool. And both of these have been
kind of brought up, leased off to developers. in recent years with solemn promises that they'll
maintain the facilities. And what they've come back with are plans for hotels, accommodations,
apartments, and teeny-weeny 25-meter indoor pools, far from adequate for the community. And I'm
raising it here because that sort of degradation, and particularly Big Splash, there's been a
deliberate lack of maintenance of our public infrastructure to turn it into housing,
to get this big return on investment, is... It's a big problem because things like swimming pools
are, for a lot of us, an accessible way to exercise. So if it weren't for public pools,
I would have a lot harder time rebuilding my strength when I had a lot of issues walking.
And to see sort of the issues of this inflated housing market putting a price tag on that land and
then people choosing profit over community amenity is really annoying and really upsetting.
That's my elephant in the room. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, I think it's a pretty big elephant
too. There's a municipal services inquiry open at the moment, which is closing in the next couple
of weeks. And I think there's some issues coming out of that that we're all going to be raising. My
elephant in the room is that we are three years into the disability health strategy and we're still
seeing reports of diagnostic overshadowing this week by... emergency responders so there was a
report of a case on the ABC mornings and afternoons program where a man fell from a mobility
scooter and was left for hours waiting for an ambulance in the hot sun on top of an ant's nest and
wasn't given like ambulance services for a couple of hours because they kind of treated it not as a
critical health incident I think things like that are really sort of troubling. And we've also got,
you know, reports in our advocacy of people with disabilities, with injuries, unable to safely
access the hospital because they don't have things like shower chairs. So, you know, I'm worried
we're about to see a lot more social admissions into the hospitals because of the NDIS changes and
the cuts happening next July. And we are simply not ready in our health system.
I'd like to have seen it a bit. gone a bit further. Absolutely agree. So thank you for joining us
on the Independent Assessment. We'll be back next month with more shenanigans, more talk. And if
you'd like to get in touch in the meantime, you can get in touch with us at
theindependentassessment at gmail.com. Thanks, Sue. This program was produced by Radio 1RPH in
partnership with Advocacy for Inclusion. It is made possible with the support, the Community
Broadcast Foundation and Hands Across Canberra. See you next month.