Under Construction

This episode of The Independent Assessment was recorded prior to the attacks on Iran by the
governments of Israel and the United States of America.
Welcome to The Independent Assessment, a new podcast produced by Radio 1 RPH in partnership with
Advocacy for Inclusion. I'm Seymour. And I'm Craig Wallace. The Independent Assessment takes a look
at disability issues in Canberra, beyond the parliamentary triangle. Join us as we dive into
reform, politics, culture and curiosity and a sense of humour. There will be pop culture.
There will be nerd culture. There will be disability culture. There will be Canberra chat. There
might even be Scottish Pirate Metal. But what there won't be is official positions from our
organisations because you can get that somewhere else. In this month's episode, we're talking about
Canberra streets, transport and urban centres. Are they broken for people with disability? Can we
fix it? Our guests are Jill King from Living Streets Canberra and Bill Jamel from the Public
Transport Association of Canberra.
Normally each month we offer our independent assessment on the world of politics, culture,
disability and Canberra with a patronising medical model verdict on the month that was.
But for our first episode of the year, we've decided that given what's happened since our December
episode, we're going to need to decide whether 2026 needs an emergency change of circumstances
review. Can we reset back to where we were or do we need a whole new plan? What do you think about
that one, Craig? Thanks, C. Well, look, I think we can possibly do a reset,
but it's almost too late, to be honest. So there are some sort of green shoots. Andrew Mountbatten
-Windsor, or whatever he's called now, being held accountable through the courts and through the
justice process, I think sort of shows that justice can come even to the most shielded and
privileged. The social media ban. However flawed it is,
particularly for young people with disabilities, shows you can regulate the tech companies. We have
to cop a backlash, but the public will potentially get behind it. Like it's interesting that now a
range of European countries are looking to replicate what Australia has done. The backlash against
ICE in Minneapolis shows that people will fight back and also the power of an engaged and enraged
citizenry. While the Supreme Court decision on tariffs,
which included votes against Trump by some of the judges that he's supported, shows that there are
limits at the moment. on the reach of executive power. Mark Parton, on a local level in ACT
politics, actually deigning to talk to the Greens about the possibility of a shared government
arrangement in Canberra, shows that at least there's a kind of flicker of a possibility or an idea
that you could actually have two or even three workable parties of government and even a change of
government here. Mark Carney, the Prime Minister of Canada, his speech shows that there is a you
know, thinking about a kind of middle way and a different way to handle Trump. You know, if you're
a middle power, which doesn't involve craven kneeling to the king,
as we've seen, I think, sadly from some leaders, like Kistama. And finally, it's kind of the
backlash against automation in robo debt, in aged care reform, and in NDIS delivery,
I think shows that you can call out bad reform and misuse technology.
You know, again, growing support for social media, bans around the world,
despite the threat of a backlash from the big tech companies and, you know, calling against J.D.
Vance's so-called freedom agenda, I think kind of shows that governments still have agency here.
So that's my overly optimistic assessment. What about you, C? I mean,
I don't want to say it's overly optimistic because optimism is important, but I think I'm a lot
more cynical about a lot of those changes. A lot of them seem kind of small and tokenistic given
the scale of what's going on. We've seen this really accelerated pace of change and crisis during
the Trump presidency. And a lot of it's an extension of issues that have been left on address for
decades. So, for example, the erosion of the power of the Supreme Court. It means that there's no
enforcement when they do go back against Trump. There's been this basically collapse of
international laws, but those never really applied to the US and their allies. It's just that it's
out in the open now. And the deregulation of companies, allowing these giant mergers and creating
worldwide tech monopolies, continuing the accumulation of wealth and power by billionaires, that's
all been in the works for decades. And the US, of course, has a leverage over many basic services
we rely on in Australia. So what would happen if we push back? How is that a possibility to be
enforced? That's a bit of a scary question. And of course, the US behaving so badly kind of
distracts from the stuff that is still happening here and allows kind of these really tokenistic
gestures towards change. Like the social media ban, I think, is actually not doing anywhere near
enough to address the root cause. On our national level, I mean,
we're seeing the result of missed opportunities for reform all over the place. So like thinking
back to when I was a child, there was this resource boom and that those resources were used to fuel
climate change and we didn't get any tax out of it to actually build up our fundamental services.
We are on paper a very wealthy country, but we can't provide the basics for people. And there's...
of missed opportunities there. All of this was warned about. There's been years of protests and
petitions and commissions and evidence around things like the housing crisis and that negative
gearing. There is evidence to show that getting rid of that would change things.
We've got now a tokenistic measure around first-time buyer reform and that's making the problem
worse. So evidence, protests, all of this over the years is not actually changing anything and now
we're seeing this crack down on And locally, we've got the ACT government that's been in power for
20 plus years and they haven't used that security to address the longstanding issues in education,
housing and infrastructure. And we've got a budget where there's not enough money to go around,
but somehow enough money to spend on things like a new theatre when people are without the basic
necessities of life. I'm really concerned about the level of accountability that there is and
that... an ineffective opposition and no really way to hold people accountable for the systematised
cruelty that we're seeing. I agree that Carney is right in that we do need a new way of dealing on
the world stage, but also locally. And we need a kind of complete reconsideration of how a
political system works to prioritise people over profit and this. entrenched power in politics
where there needs to be more people factor in there.
Why is money the way we value everything? Because that's not helping. I don't see how there is a
status quo that we can get back to given the decades of all of these issues that doesn't land us
straight back here. So I think there's way more fundamental change needed. Yeah, yeah,
thanks. I mean, I actually think I'm sort of convinced by that, like the bits of pushback and reset
that we're setting it kind of at the edges. or things that aren't consequential, like the social
media ban rather than pushing back against the whole, you know, kind of political cesspit that is
now X and Twitter. So, yeah, I'm sadly kind of compelled by your case.
So I'm not sure where that leaves us. Possibly leaves us pretty depressed and needing to find a
reset somewhere else, possibly through binge TV. Just wondering what your summer reset,
I think, to clear the mind was. Yeah, look. And it's really easy to be super angry.
And gosh, we've got to stay happy. So one thing that I really enjoyed was Heated Rivalry,
which was a Canadian gay hockey romance created by one of the guys behind Letter Kenny,
which I also love. And it's led to like an unexpected obsession with ice hockey. But I really love
that show. Because it shows that there's hope for a world where, you know, two guys in a
traditionally toxic masculine sport can find love despite that. And we can cheer about it.
It was really great to see happiness and what a different world could look like. I think that's a
bit of a message we can take from wanting change is what would that look like? It's also got some
very good butts. Not an appropriate show for anyone under 18, but great fun. What about you,
Craig? What was your thing that kept you going? Yeah, well, I mean, first of all, on Heated
Rivalry, it really is testing the boundaries, I think, of what you can put. It's showing that
streamings and show really quite adult, edgy content and stuff that is,
you still kind of go, oh, that's new. like the whole kind of the Russian and I thought it was
incredibly well set up and it was great drama but also skirted this side of X-rated. So mine was
at the exact kind of opposite end of the spectrum. I've recently been kind of binging on the 1970s
BBC version of the story of Edward and Mrs Simpson and in the way of things then listening to some
audio books of The Trader King, which is a book on Edward. Look, I think... The book makes the
case, as does the serial, that actually the story that we've all heard about the love affair
between Wallace and Edward being the reason for the application wasn't really what happened. That
was the pretext for him going. But he actually went because he was an entitled,
overbearing, privileged person who treated his staff poorly.
And by the way, in a series of positions that he was appointed to, to get him out of the way,
committed what you would describe as misdemeanours in public office. So, you know, I think that
rings some bells with the allegations. We do need to say the allegations,
but firming up against Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor. And it also shows how history can be twisted to
suit a narrative. So some lessons for now.
I think it's time to introduce our guests. So Jill King is the chair of Living Streets Canberra,
a lobby group for walkers and we who are the walking adjacent. Living Streets is a grassroots
organisation that has a vision of everyone in Canberra being able to enjoy public spaces and walk
or roll easily, safely and conveniently when she's not lobbying for change.
Jill is also a sustainability strategist, facilitator, coach and mentor who focuses on flourishing
in a habitable climate. Before starting her own business, Jill racked up over 20 years working for
the federal government. She also volunteers and holds qualifications in botany and public policy.
Welcome, Jill. Hello, Craig and C. How are you? I guess like you and I have known each other now
for... while and connected to our advocacy work. But one of the sort of reflections, the theme on
that consistently has been how getting about Canberra as a person with a disability can sometimes
be a nightmare. Often to use the state of Canberra streets, transport and urban centres and the way
those things work together. And we've been talking about that in the last 24 hours. Today we're
talking about city planning and what it means to be able to get about your own city and the impacts
of being excluded. I mean, this is in fact why I stepped up with Living Streets Canberra.
I live next but one to a corner and I was just getting so angry.
Every time I cross the street, because there's this huge wide street with a large radius corner so
anybody can drive at great speed, corner at speed, and I'm having to walk a long way just across
the street. And when I got to the other side, it's a narrow path with cracks and lumps and bumps
and overgrown vegetation. And I was just getting so angry. I thought I better do something about it
because you can complain. But if you don't do anything about it, you can't complain.
Of course, there are plenty of people who can't complain because they're just not in a position to
complain because they're too young or they just don't have the wherewithal in order to do so.
I speak up. And one of the reasons I do that is I'm actually a member of Rostrum. And when you
become a Rostrum member, part of the promise is I ought never to be silent when I ought to speak.
So I don't have a choice. Bill Gunnell is a committee member of the Public Transport Association of
Canberra. He's interested in improving access and equity in the ACT's public transport system. Bill
had a long career as a Commonwealth public servant across a number of fields, including pensions
and disability. And now that he's retired, he uses his time playing with grandchildren,
enjoying travel, motorcycle touring, gardening, and supporting his favourite rugby league team. He
also volunteers supporting men with acquired spinal injuries and is a carer for an NDIS client.
Bill chairs the ACT and Region Conservation Council's Transport Working Group. And before we get
into our main discussion with our guests, we're going to do our segment called Build Your Own
Social Support Package.
Imagine that we're your NDIS assessors and we're building a social support package.
So tell us about a hobby, a skill or an interest that you have that might surprise people. And you
have to kind of convince us that we should care about it and fund it. We'll go to Jill first.
Okay, I sing in a choir called A Chorus of Women, but I've sung in other choirs from time to time.
Part of the reason I sing is because it's a lot more impromptu and portable than playing an
instrument because all you've got to do is open your mouth and away you go.
Nothing has to be carted around or assembled. And singing is helping me cognitively.
It helps develop my brain. It helps with my social skills. It helps me develop.
patience. It helps me connect with people socially. It helps develop my lungs.
It helps create vibrations throughout my body to make me feel and work a lot better.
And there's so many benefits documented about singing. Everybody should be singing whenever they
can, but I need to be able to get. to where I can sing with other people. So I need decent
infrastructure and services to be able to get there. I think that sounds like a pretty effective
use of resources for all those benefits, though. I think so. I'd approve it. Thank you.
Absolutely. Craig, would you approve it? Yeah, yeah, I'd approve it. But in fact, I kind of expect
that now kind of answers in the podcasts and our representations on planning issues,
we should sing them because nothing else has kind of got people to make that take notice. I think
that's a great idea, Craig. And Bill, what's in your social support package?
It won't be singing because when I was at school, I went to join the choir, did the rehearsal, and
I said, have you thought about joining the band? Look, I'm really interested in people placed,
how people get around and bring some photography and mapping to it. So, look,
I'd really like to join the Railway Historical Society. They've got a living history of how people
got around, how engineering happened, and there's a lot of nice people go there,
a lot of really sensible people. But to participate, I'd need to get there,
need to get home. And because of where it's located, it's quite difficult, especially when meetings
are on at nine o'clock at night or whatever, seven o'clock at night. Very hard to get home, dark,
cold night out that way. But on top of that, don't really have your resources, income strained.
I wouldn't mind some support to get a reasonable camera and laptop to take photos.
They go on excursions and take photos of trains and things like that. So. That's what I'd like in
my support package. I always think trains are a worthy pastime and photos would be awesome.
I would love to get into trains. It just feels like such a sort of relaxing and immersive thing.
I actually admire these train spotters. I kind of think they've found a thing that is sort of
interesting to them and they're right in there. Some of my fondest childhood memories are up at the
Zigzag Railway near Lifco in the Blue Mountains. Have you ever been up that way, Bill? I grew up in
the Blue Mountains. And so if you ever see the footage of the Western Explorer topping up water at
the Lawson Railway Station, there's a photo of like 10-year-old me at the end of the platform
because it wasn't anything on the track, totally in awe of a 3801 being reloaded with water.
That's very, very cool. I know that train well. It sits in the back of my mind.
Awesome. Well, I'm always going to approve trains. Don't know how you feel about that one, Craig.
Yeah, yeah, I'm always going to approve it as well. Like I think Canberra doesn't have enough
trains, but the Kingston, like I kind of think rail as a sort of travel mobility in and out of
Canberra is underdone. Do you ever think we'll get the promised fast train or is it like the big
splash water park? It's a sort of thing that will just never, that's going to be talked about
forever and never materialise. I had the opportunity to talk to Howard Collins,
who was the coordinator general of New South Wales Transport recently, and I asked him a number of
questions about train servicing to Canberra, and he had brought his wife down to go to Floriart,
and he just said to me, yeah, I know, everything can ask me, because I've told people to go and get
it fixed. That's in terms of access to the city, and he was talking about things like...
a QR code onto their train ticket so people can get on the bus with a, he said,
it's only a couple of dollars, we'll pay it. Just put it on the ticket so people can get in the bus
network. Because there's no machine there. Better way finding. He was quite prepared to actually
put a bit of effort into it. Noting they've also got those new trains coming, the, what do they
call, the R-sets, the Spanish trains, that are going to have decent disability access in all
carriages. Life could improve and they might go a little bit faster. The problem is the track and
getting money to spend on the track. They are spending a lot of money on the track, but the track
from MacArthur up to Mossvale is really problematic and it's probably going to be diverted because
lines and lines and lines. And he wants to do it,
but he's the world's greatest train spotter because he came here. from the London Underground.
They were a senior position there, a senior position here, and we had quite a good conversation.
Unexpected. He thought he was having a cup of coffee.
Yeah, I used to really love the sort of train ride into Canberra when I first came to Canberra. I
used to do it as my main. It wouldn't go by plane. It would be on that train trip. That's probably
a good segue into our conversation about, I guess, getting around Canberra.
And as a person with a disability, it can sometimes be a bit of a nightmare, often due to the state
of our streets, transport and urban centres. Today, we're going to have a chat about city planning
and what it means to be able to get about your own city and the impacts of being excluded,
aren't we, Sue? And we've got a few questions up here, but happy to hear from you about...
Your ideas. For Jill, I wanted to ask you if you can think of any good examples of living public
spaces in Canberra or from your experience around the world and possibly what are some places that
could be better and how? There's been a few good places built or changed in recent years.
One of my favourites is actually in Kingston. I think it's on Eyre Street.
There's a sort of new mixed-use development. It's got supermarket and fast food shops and things
at the bottom and apartments at the top. And it's opposite Green Square. It's a sort of T-shaped
intersection. It's on the bus route. And the whole intersection was raised and painted red.
And there are two pedestrian crossings either side of the sort of the stem of the T to go across
from the sort of shops area to the supermarket mixed-use development area.
And that has completely transformed that intersection. So I really like that. I like Corinna Street
in Woden before they closed off the path for the ongoing development and removed the buses.
There were a few months that it was lovely.
Yeah. There were a few. I saw some. I got a surprise yesterday,
actually, going between a meeting at the top of Northbourne Avenue and over to Tillys.
On Northbourne Avenue, between the tram station and where the bike path thing goes across,
it has its own traffic lights. No, it's actually after that, going towards Civic.
They have rebuilt a bit of path. Actually, no, it's coming up the bike path thing.
They've rebuilt it, it's smooth, and they built it wider than the old path.
When they replaced it, they upgraded it. And that's what they should be doing. Whenever they're
doing repairs or replacements, they should be upgrading as they go. But that was a really pleasant
surprise. And there's a couple of new raised crossings along the way to Lynham's shop.
So that was a pleasant surprise. So, Jill, one of the sort of features of that Corinna Street in
that brief period where it was okay, as well as, and I think parts of Braddon, some of the places
that we really love, is that they're kind of more than just a piece of infrastructure.
And I think just reflecting on some of the meetings and discussions you and I have had with
officials, it's kind of like the task has been to convince them that actually they need to look at
this as more than just as a... a street that is like a thoroughfare, that it's about how the whole
thing connects up. And also the streets are like living places.
They're a piece of community in their own right. I kind of really like the way that Living Streets
presents that. I'd be interested to hear a little bit about how you came to that as a point of
reference and how do you think we can... get officials and government to sort of start seeing
streets, our bike paths, the places we move through as being more than just incidental?
Yeah, that's an interesting question. And it's actually been a long journey and there's been
several twists and turns and revelations along the way. But I think the key there in your question,
Craig, is that so many people see the paths on our streets as incidental.
So much of Canberra was built without paths at all because, you know, who needs a path? You know,
we have these wide, curvy streets that say drive fast, but if you're not driving,
if you can't drive, if you're a kid, if you just want to duck across. the street to a neighbour or
whatever, sometimes you've got to take your life in your hands because people aren't looking out
for you. We've got narrow paths in a lot of places and they're so incidental that people have no
qualms about parking across them or parking with their bonnets or tow bars or boots or whatever
hanging over them. not recognising that that is actually part of the street.
The street is not just the road surface, but it includes the verge, the median strips,
the paths, the trees, the whole lot. And it's also about how the place looks.
Is it welcoming or not? That's one of the things I like. That was one of the things that was so
good about when they changed Corinna Street. Suddenly it made it a place for people.
a place for people. And it's not just able-bodied,
fully sighted people who are able to walk on a slope,
bumpy bit of grass if the path gets flooded. But, you know, anybody can need to have a good,
clear pathway with smooth surface at any time. Put somebody on crutches,
put them on a scooter, have them pulling a shopping buggy or pushing a pram.
When my firstborn was built, was built. After she was built. When she was born, I lived near
Captain Cook Crescent and that shows on the, was then cycling map,
that you could ride on the footpaths. No, you couldn't.
There were no pram ramps. No, nothing. And it took nine years to get them.
So much of this is just never tested with people who are actually pedestrians or bike riders or
anyone who's using those parts. These problems will be spotted pretty early. Yeah. I just want to
get some input from Bill because I know that P2CBR has talked about interchanges as these...
spaces that should be well-maintained and they should facilitate connection with local services,
not just as points for transport. So what's your opinion about the role of where and how public
transport infrastructure can help this public living street sort of life? We've been arguing for a
long time that interchanges, especially a new one,
a part of the urban place where people should come, feel safe, wait for their service or swap
between services. There should be shade, there should be shelter from the elements and there should
be safety. You'd think they would have decent access to it from the surrounding area.
And, you know, some places get a pass mark and some don't.
We're always out there making these comments to the government. They're not going to get their mode
shift that they say they want in the greenhouse plan, carbon reduction,
whatever they call it. They're not going to get that until they make it the preferable choice for
people. Because people come up with these shifts, I'll trip over, there's car parked over the
driveway, there's a pothole there, it's too hot, it's too wet. I get there,
I don't know where I'm going. We think... that aspect, not a lot of investment,
but continuous improvement and sort of continuous little bits of investment might get us somewhere.
I was pretty disappointed in the carbon plan.
That's not a plan. That doesn't seem to have allocated any money for anything.
And certainly when I do my comments, I'll include that. I don't know how far we'll go.
Now, back to Corina Street. Corina Street's a street close to my heart. I made a submission to the
Assembly Inquiry into the Waden Town Centre and made my feelings known.
Now, one MLA who wasn't an MLA at the time, and I raised it with them,
said to me, well, it's just so the oldies can get over to Kimmer's Warehouse and get their cheap
script and get the bus on. I thought that was horrible. That's pretty shocking.
Because, I mean, speaking of myself, living in the area, I've actually changed where I go for my
blood tests because Corinna Street is so inaccessible. Like, they haven't considered planning
around the essential services we use very well there at all. So I've had some thoughts about it,
including restoring the buses they took out of there. They're running along Melrose Drive now.
Like, they're a block or two away.
And you can get a heavy vehicle through. You might need to make part of it one way,
but you can get a heavy vehicle through. I took a dip truck through. No problems. I don't see why
they can't do it, except I think the drivers didn't want to service the stock.
They had to turn twice. That's my impression. I'm waiting to see where the Woden inquiry goes.
If he comes out recommending, I've got an MLA lined up to do a petition on it next.
I'm not letting it go. I'm really annoyed. I feel like something's been lost on it. So do you
remember, like, both of you, when there was this original discussion about Woden interchange
becoming like an airport, like a place not everyone wants to hang around airports, but they
actually are places which are social spaces where you're wanting to hang around it to be. And
instead, like, if I was wanting to remount a kind of, you know, The Walking Dead or some kind of
disaster movie, I would centre it in that. giant open space CIT and Woden Plaza because it just
they've opened it up but it's like you know now I can be attacked in broad daylight and no one will
see like it just feels like they don't get this idea that you are creating not just thoroughfares
but spaces that are inclusive that foster community and foster social connection.
I mean, I just don't know how we, like, is there an elevator pitch, Jill, that you think we can use
to sort of, you know, nail the case for this, thinking about somewhere like Woden Interchange? So
Living Streets Canberra advocates for all our streets, paths and crossings to be safe, accessible,
comfortable. and convenient for everyone. But with another hat on, we were advocating for active
travel, paths in particular, to be the obvious and easy and attractive choice.
If it's obvious and easy, that is essential, but attractive too.
So I have done a bit of walking along Pennant Hills Road, Cumberland Highway,
because... was where I was going to somewhere. Great paths. Fully accessible.
Attractive? Definitely not. It was horrible. So it has to be attractive too. It's a mix of things.
There is a footbridge over Yarralumna Creek in Woden towards Hindmarsh.
It is not attractive. It is not attractive, no shelter. Whereas if you've got a bit of shelter,
if you've got a bit of design, it makes a huge difference. Look at some of the bridges in the not
driving bridges. They might be for buses, bikes, people walking, various combinations of those in
Brisbane. And they are attractive. They're attractive to look at. They have places to sit down and
rest. But if you want to do that or have a bit of a... longer chat. They've got shelter, all sorts
of things. It makes it more attractive and it's convenient because you're going straight from one
place to another. And Woden's such a good case study for all of this because just a block away from
that bridge, there's the Avalon Park, which is a... a nice place but um the paths are very steep
and now with the construction um that's been going on at the interchange it's not a convenient path
to go through even though it's gorgeous um like i i find that that used to be a really nice way to
get to the bus um and it it makes me think about how we plan construction because there's a lot of
it long term across the city and how is that planned so that the public use of that space doesn't
drop off and it remains accessible. I can't count the number of times that I've tried to get
somewhere and then found a diversion that's going to take me double the distance and I just can't
go that far. So how do we also address that whilst we're a city under construction and like fixing
these issues with our public spaces? So we have for... a few years now,
been advocating that the ACT join other local governments and require that the pathway be kept
open, accessible and in good condition. And that can be done by ensuring that it's not damaged,
that it's not blocked by fences or by providing an almost adjacent safe walkway.
And you see that in the bigger cities with gantries overhead or it's through a container or
whatever. And the ACT government has been resisting that. And these things,
they come with carrot and stick. They have to maintain it.
If anything happens to damage it or impede, it has to be fixed within 24 hours. But they come with
big bonds. So for a house, it might be like a $40,000 bond. to keep the path open and in good
condition. And that would also save the ACT government, payers in the ACT, a lot of money too
because we currently have a situation where paths are closed or badly damaged for years at a time
and then the taxpayer has to pay to get it fixed. Really should be the other way around if they're
the ones obstructing the path.
Bill, do you have anything to add to that? I've got a bit to add. I've been in a number of
conversations with Jill about this issue and I've agreed with pretty much everything she said.
I think there's a political element to it. It's the accountability of the not quite senior exec in
the bureaucracy that have interpreted policy to suit their ends.
Now, controlled activity orders, for example. that has now been used with gusto by Minister Steele.
In the previous assembly, they were almost repealed, which wouldn't have meant the government
wouldn't have had a lever to pull on Big Splash.
It also would mean they wouldn't even have a lever to pull on these people who take over path land,
paths, whatever with the building material, because that's how they got them to tidy it up.
It's a cultural. thing to me. Now, when I talk to bureaucrats,
I'm just totally stunned at how flat and deadpen they are to the rights of anybody but the
motorist. For example, I was talking to a fellow recently about some parking issues around
Coolingham Court, which is always a great topic of conversation. He said,
well, people need to stop walking behind cars. as they're about to reverse out of car parking's
foot. There's no paths there. I grew up there and this has been a problem for 15 years or more.
It's now become unmanageable because of the population pressures and them open outcomes at night.
Well, it's actually improved. It improves a couple of days a week. They're the days the parking
inspectors actually enforce it. Because the amount of all-day parking there is getting out of
control. Oh. So usually Tuesday and Wednesday is a lot of tips. If you're looking for good parking
at Cooling Court, go there then. Rest of the week, forget it. Two-hour parking, that's long enough
to leave your car there, go into Civic, go to the movies, have lunch, come back and pick up a car.
Which is exactly what I've done with my parents to avoid the Civic construction traffic.
I find that a particular problem when there's a walk-in centre there, there's a senior centre
there, and people are relying on cars to access those. So something's got to give.
Yeah, it's an active topic of conversation between a number of groups and the minister,
and he's deadpanning that one. My attitude to the all-day parking, I don't park there,
I fit enough to park elsewhere. There's down near the tennis courts and there's the Irish Club car
park. Before we move on to our final segment, I'll just run a kind of sort of theory, which comes
out of conversations I've had with officials over a period of time. I thought particularly, Bill,
you might have a take on this, but also Jill. I think there's almost like a kind of psychology in
the ACT government in Canberra more broadly that stems from the kind of Burley Griffin plan and the
way our spaces are arranged, which has been if you've got a lake. It's kind of just there as a
lake. I can remember the long conversations in the 90s about whether you could do any kind of
outdoor cafe work. I think when I speak to people about streets,
about thoroughfares, about transport hubs, it's almost like they can only envision them as doing
that one thing and almost like they're independent of people. The yes minister thing about the best
-run hospital in the world would be one where there's no patients. Do we have a problem with a
really narrow bureaucratic interpretation of spaces?
Do we actually need maybe a bit less of a regulatory approach to this and a different mindset
that's a bit more open to different uses? I don't know. I'll start with you, Jill, and then, Bill,
perhaps you could give a historical. reflection on it. Am I on track or is that totally, is that
wild?
Talking about like around the lake, that made me think about the fight that Gus Petersilker had to
open an outdoor cafe seating in Civic in the 1970s and fought like mad for that.
But you're right.
I think it's because... It's a result of the very successful campaign that the motor vehicle
industry ran about 100 years ago. So when cars first came onto the scene,
streets were full of all sorts of things. They were full of... People,
people going anywhere, all over the place, any direction, having chats in the middle of the street,
kids playing, there were horses, there were horses pulling vehicles,
barrows, all sorts of things. But of course, this was not conducive to driving at any speed.
So the motor vehicle industry ran a very good campaign over many years to get streets to be the
sole province of driving. to the extent that in many places it's an offence to cross the street
unless you're doing it in certain places and in certain ways, and that includes Australia. People
may be familiar with the term jaywalking, which is an American term, but we have restrictions here
too. You can't cross unless you've taken the most direct route. You can't walk on the street unless
there's no path. You can't cross within 20 metres of traffic light crossing or pedestrian crossing
or things like that. And so one of my favorite cartoons is of,
it's a city scene and the streets are huge canyons going straight down with just this little bridge
where there's a pedestrian crossing. And that's what the industry did to our streets.
But on the bright side, we have people in government, designers and so on,
that talk about So you might have heard that term a lot. We want to activate civic with the City
Renewal Authority. We want to have activated frontages of multi-unit developments or mixed-use
developments. And I think that's the concept we need to get across,
that our streets need to be activated. They are public realms and they need to be available to all
of the public regardless of how they're occupying that space.
Yeah, I think they talk the talk and they paint the signs on the pathways, but it's kind of the
belief that the... It's almost something like when they see an activated space, it's almost like
it's a bit offensive and busy and not able to be regulated and we need to get rid of it. I agree
with what you just said, Craig. Often there's a lot of goodwill goes into design,
but they won't go that last step. Now look at the Bunda Street shared space.
For the life of me, I can't understand why it's a shared space. It could be open for delivery
vehicles at a certain time for loading. The rest of the time, it should be closed, in my view.
Because you also have, when you're there, you go across the road in good faith, it's what, 20
kilometre zone? But you have to worry that the person coming at you understands the 20 kilometre
zone and isn't going to drive at you. because they come from places where the rules are different
or they come from here and they don't care about the rules and there's no enforcement of any of it.
So that really annoys me that we've let that go.
Has anybody ever seen any enforcement of any kind in there? And by enforcement, it might mean a
friendly hate. You know that was wrong. Not issuing a monthly fine. Has anybody actually seen
anything? Not that I can recall. I think it's done by people like you and me,
Bill, who look at the person who's driving the wrong way. But, you know, it makes a huge
difference. Look, for people who have been to Sydney CBD, the difference between George Street
before light rail and George Street after, you would not believe it's the same place.
Before it was noisy, dirty, full of buses and vehicles, and now it is much more quiet.
It's colourful. It's full of people doing whatever, you know,
outdoor seating as part of the street furniture, outdoor seating as part of cafes and bars and so
on. It's a great place now. Yeah, in terms of who we need to convince and what we need to get them
to do, I think this is a really nice... way into our final segment with you for the podcast,
which is called the One Minute Planning Call. This is kind of based on that National Disability
Insurance Scheme and the hoops that they put people with disabilities through. So our final kind of
ask for you is to imagine that you're an NDIS assessor and you get to have like a one minute phone
call where you can put somebody on an improvement plan and require them to do something.
or to maybe think a bit differently in order to address all of this, who would it be and what would
you put in that plan? It could be anyone in the world. It could be a local planning official. It
could be a minister or maybe you even want to talk about something more broadly. Jill, I might
start off with you. Look, this is a hard one. So I decided to go for a class of...
It's traffic and road engineers and planners and they have to not have a license for at least 24
hours, preferably a week or so. And they have got a choice whether they get about in a wheelchair
or with a blindfold or both. I like that one. Yeah, love it.
We might try and do a little bit of that. Yeah, love it. I would actually like to add all our
elected representatives to my plan. Could be a fun challenge for us to set them if we can get in
front of some MLAs. Well, variations on that has worked very well in the past.
ACT's done it with bus drivers and bike riders. When San Francisco was trying to fix up...
mess. It decided that the best way was to get more people riding bikes and they made all of the,
I think it was street designers, have to ride a bike somewhere in the city one day a month.
But it really needs, it's more than just the designers, it's the people who actually build and
maintain as well. It's all the decision makers, anybody involved, anywhere along that sort of
pipeline. That's a couple of great ideas there. It'd be great for TV too. Oh,
good point. Yeah. Absolutely. Thanks to both of you. We will use the enormous leverage that the
Independent Assessment Podcasts have and that C&I have to require them to do that. In the
meantime, we really appreciate you spending some time with us and talking about some really
important and I think underdone, the whole municipal area of the city is really,
really underdone. So we were delighted to give some coverage to it. Thank you.
It was great fun. Thank you, Craig.
Much enjoyed it. And as you know, we're still fighting on, trying to make Canberra a bit better day
by day. Thank you for your time and thank you for fighting the good fight.
So now it's time for the elephant in the room. Each month we end off by naming the issue that no
one is talking about, but everyone should be. This month, I'm nominating Advanced Care Planning
because it's Advanced Care Planning Week in March. And as a culture, we are pretty bad at talking
about serious illness and dying, despite the fact that all of us will die one day. Advanced Care
Planning is a process of planning for what would happen if someone else had to speak for you or
make choices for you. And you need to make it who that will be, how they know what your choices
are, and make sure that that person knows what's important to you. And it's not just for people who
are older or who are dying. Anyone over a change is... making one and particularly for those of us
with disability or chronic illnesses, it can be really important so that people don't make
assumptions about like our quality of life and what's going on for us in our own bodies. But
starting the conversations are the hard bit and I want to challenge everyone to talk to one person
you know. this month about what they'd want if they were too sick to speak up for themselves and
take a look at advanced care planning. It's pretty easy once you've done the hard talking. You can
just do a few forms and we'll pop a link in the show notes so you can get more information. What
about you, Craig? Thanks. See, that's a great one. I think it's really hard to sort of have those
conversations and one of the reasons that it's scary is because it doesn't feel safe.
for people with disabilities right now. Particularly if you're in a situation where you've been
admitted to hospital, often that is kind of introduced without a person feeling like they've got a
lot of agency in it, feeling like actually this might mean that my course of treatment is altered,
that they spend less time with me as a disabled person, that our lives are devalued.
As we've just seen in all of the terrible coverage and conversations around the recent deaths of
young people with disabilities. So, you know, I actually think these are important conversations,
but I think it's also important to realise that for people with disabilities, there are reasons why
we're afraid of them and they shouldn't be sort of pathologised. Absolutely. And it's important to
do it early before something happens so that that's not imposed on you and so that it's actually a
tool to stand up for those rights. Yeah, and we also need our doctors and our medical staff,
that social model training that we've talked about happening through the disability health strategy
as part of the introduction of voluntary assisted dying. I think showing some signs that that's
happening might be one of the things that needs to happen here. But it's a great one, I agree.
Look, I'm nominating, I'd be interested to see what you're thinking about this, but the increasing
risk to our... security and democracy from these kind of belligerent and politically motivated tech
companies who are willing to use their hard power. So the head of the International Court of Human
Rights was blacklisted by not just the Trump administration, but also the big tech companies.
So all of a sudden, that person's Microsoft Outlook and Teams and Google platforms didn't work for
them. I think it points... to an increasing risk that sort of the software and the platforms that
we rely on, so much of them come from the United States. The assumptions that we've made about them
being sort of a friendly, you know, democratically aligned power are kind of going away.
An example of this in the last 24 hours, which is kind of funny, but will,
I think, points to another. Like the guy who managed to hack all the vacuum cleaners. vacuum
cleaner robots, something like 7,000 vacuum cleaner robots throughout the United States.
And, you know, I was able to tap into their softwares and their cameras and their movements.
I mean, it's really funny on another level, but on another level, it's terrifying. And you think
about, you know, the fact that motor vehicles, fridges, everything's connected.
I don't know about you, but it just terrifies me. I think it becomes more terrifying the more tech
literate you are. So I would call myself pretty tech literate. And it is scary when these funny
things happen that you go, oh, but what if it was weaponized? And it's,
yeah, it's super concerning that it can just be turned off. And there's been this ongoing push to
move all software into software as a service models, which means that it... you don't own licenses
to things. You can't take them offline. You have to keep it connected to the cloud. And that means
that this is possible. And that's why I was mentioning earlier about like, well, they're allowing
these huge mergers between these companies, which means that the power gets consolidated and
consolidated. And there are alternatives, but they're not well used. They're not well resourced.
And I think I want to see more of what's happening in some places in Europe where the government's
looking at, well, how can we... build our own software out of alternatives. There is some great
open source stuff. And I mean, personally, I'm getting rid of Windows from everywhere and going
back to using Linux, which I haven't done since I was a very nerdy teenager. But you need so much
tech literacy to do that. And I think systemically, we need to view that as a security risk that
people's tech literacy isn't enough to retain control of their information and data and what
happens with that at a system level. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'd say, like, please, Europe,
grow a spine on this. But also, actually, Albanese, you might need to contemplate what you were
going to do during, what we were going to do during COVID. We're going to be 3D printing our own
ventilator parts and breaking IP laws. Like, this might require homegrown solutions.
Or maybe we just wait until AI decides that it's going to turn the whole thing off and the vacuum
cleaner's attackers. Well, I've been very friendly to my robot vacuum, so I think I'm okay.
Absolutely. I'm much more like, yeah, let's be kind to robots week. Seeing those robots in China.
Yeah. Wow. Pretty scary. So thank you for joining us on the Independent Assessment. We'll be back
next month with more shenanigans and silly conversations about robot vacuums. If you'd like to get
in touch in the meantime, you can contact us on the independentassessment at gmail.com. And this
program was produced by Radio 1 RPH in partnership with Advocacy for Inclusion. It is made possible
with support from the Community Broadcasting Foundation and the Aspen Foundation. See you next
month.