More on Guide Dog refusals - Paula Hobly and Lee Kumutat

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John Simpson 0:29

Hello and welcome to New Horizons. I'm John Simpson, and thanks for joining us. I've got two guests with me this week. Firstly, I'm joined by Paula Hobly, and I'm also joined by Lee Kumutat, National Manager for Policy and Advocacy with Guide Dogs Australia. Welcome to you both. Paula, we might come to you first and talk a little bit about this Federal Court case that you're embarking on. Let's go back though and talk about the background to that you said in a recent media story that I read an ABC one that you'd experienced 32 refusals in, what, about 21 months? Is that what sparked this action?

Paula Hobly 1:13

Since the implementation of the multi-purpose taxi program to Ubers in Victoria, that's when I sort of started using Uber more frequently because it became the cheapest option. So back in 2021. So the complaint period is between March 2021 and November-December '22.

John Simpson 1:37

And of course, there's a long process between when you complain about these things and when they get to somewhere like the federal court. But of course, you obviously took your concerns directly to Uber first. What sort of response did you get from them?

Paula Hobly 1:53

So typically, when I get a refusal, I will report the incident to Uber - and depending on the evidence I have, I'll also report it to Safe Transport Victoria, which is our regulatory body. So essentially, the Transit Police, and obviously it depends on the level of evidence that I have. So typically, with regard to Uber, the process is that they refund your trip. The driver is required to do some online multiple choice re education, and they provide you with $35 of Uber cash per refusal. Well, that's been my experience anyway.

John Simpson 2:42

That doesn't really help with the appointment you missed out on, though, does it?

Paula Hobly 2:46

No, well, that's... yeah, exactly, and you can go after each individual driver to your heart's content, but sometimes the level of evidence that you often have is quite varied. I mean, I've had drivers whereby I'll book my Uber I'll let them know that I'm blind, that I have a guide dog, and I let them know where I need them to park, and can they please move the front seat forward so there's room at my feet. I sit in the back for varying reasons for my service dog... and then after I sent that message, the driver immediately cancelled so that person hadn't had any interaction with me via the text system, harder to report someone when that's the case to the regulator. 

Anyway, however, if they decide that they want an argument about whether or not I should book Uber Pet, that's a whole other story, and lots of screenshots later, and a conversation with the compliance officer later - those ones typically get reported by myself to both Uber and to the regulator.

John Simpson 3:59

So a practice that's supposed to be there to assist you - in fact, this letting them know that you're a blind person with your dog and what your needs are - in fact, works against you.

Paula Hobly 4:10

I need them to know so that a... they need you know, they know which side of the road they need to be on - because I'm not crossing the road to try and find your car. You can pull up on my side of the road, thanks. That's where I booked it from. I guess it depends on how you look at it as to whether it's working against you or not. It does in the sense that that particular ride gets cancelled by that driver and passed on to somebody else.

John Simpson 4:45

I guess it's highlighting the endemic nature of the issue, though, isn't it?

Paula Hobly

Yeah, absolutely.

John Simpson

So you were then, of course, having a group of some 32 instances, took the matter to the Human Rights Commission under the provisions of the Disability Discrimination Act. What happens in that process?

Paula Hobly 5:07

So, yeah, you go through a conciliation process - if it can't be resolved, which is what happened in my case, then you have 60 days to... lodge it with the courts.

John Simpson 5:21

And is that where you're at now?

Paula Hobly 5:24

So it's been lodged with the court, that happened just prior to the media release last week.

John Simpson 5:32

So turning to you, Lee, this, of course, is something that we've talked about on this program many, on many occasions. And in your role with Guide Dogs Australia, you no doubt to hear of all sorts of incidents where people are refused by taxis and... Uber drivers and so forth. Do you have a sense of how big the problem is?

Lee Kumutat 5:52

I would say that the problem is at the forefront in terms of advocacy for people who are using a guide dog at the moment - and that's not just because we're focusing on it or other organisations are focusing on it. It's because the problem is rife. I don't think it is exaggerating when Paula says that the problem is endemic. 

I, as a guide dog user myself, know the feeling of making the decision to book an Uber, knowing full well that I might be refused and it might not be once, it might be twice, it might be three times before I get an Uber who will take me and my dog, or alternatively making the decision to book an Uber pet, knowing full well that I would be paying more than a regular Uber, but sometimes not wanting to have the rigmarole or the argument just needing to get to where I need to get to. So, you know, that's my, my personal experience. 

But in 2023 Guide Dogs Australia ran a survey, did some research, and of people who told us that they had challenges in terms of access, 46% of those said that they had been refused by a ride share or taxi. So that's not specifically Uber, and I don't think the research went into, you know, which particular provider that was, but it does seem to be that Uber being, you know, having the the biggest share of the market seems to, you know, their drivers do seem to be the culprits quite a lot of the time.

John Simpson 7:49

And certainly, my experience is that Uber is preferred by many blind people, because if the system works properly, you get so much better service than you do from a regular taxi.

Lee Kumutat 8:01

Yeah, exactly. You know, often, if you know you don't have any problems, it's... a very fast pickup, it's efficient, and it's often cheaper than... other providers. And you know, it's not something that we should be locked out of because we choose to use a dog guide as a mobility aid. It is discrimination. I think the question is, who should be taking responsibility for discriminating against customers? And you know what Paula is testing in court is whether the courts think that that should actually be the business or the company, rather than the company kicking the can down the road and it going to the Uber drivers.

John Simpson 8:51

You've lived in both North America and and the UK For considerable periods of time. Is this problem as prominent in those places as you see it here?

Lee Kumutat 9:05

Absolutely, and that is the thing that I have to say baffles me. I am so surprised and horrified that an... or a company as wealthy as Uber and as international as Uber has this problem in, you know, in the countries where it operates, and yet nothing seems to have been able to move the needle. And look, you know, I totally think that, you know, there is genuine regret that this does happen. You know, I've had... instances where I've spoken to people when I've complained, and, you know, there's... an understanding that this is happening.

But there is no commitment at that corporate level, as it would appear, to make a change - change that would really significantly, you know, make a positive difference for for people with assistance dogs. I don't think taking the individual drivers to task is necessarily going to make a difference. Well, I mean, you know, evidence to date suggests that it hasn't. Because I'm sure there have been people before me who have taken individual drivers through the through the justice system, and it's still happening. 

And whilst you can take individual drivers to, you know, the regulators, and they get a reasonably small fine, which may be, you know, looking at their wages, maybe they don't... they probably don't think it's a small fine, but it's not making any difference for the new drivers coming in. It's not making any difference for the drivers who have managed to avoid being taken to task. You know, thus far, I think something great has got to happen for there to be any change,

John Simpson 11:04

And that's where your court case comes in. What's the timeframe, Paula, for the court action?

Paula Hobly 11:10

Well, it's been lodged. So it's just you wait and you go through the process. I actually don't know the, you know, the ins and outs of when it would be heard, or anything like that.

John Simpson 11:24

So it's something that you're going to be dealing with for quite some time to come?

Paula Hobly 11:27

Correct. 

Lee Kumutat

Can I also please, John, just just add, being sort of witness to this process for the short time that I have, it's so... and we all knew this, that it was going, it's always incumbent on the individual you know, to take the action, make the complaint, go to the Human Rights Commission, complain to the regulator, complain to the operator - you know, take this... company... to court. 

And you know, I, for one, just really appreciate, you know, that Paula is, and others have, put their head above the parapet to try and change this. But it really, to me, really just exposes how incumbent it is on that person, and how the burden of responsibility for this is is on the individual. You know, and I... would love to see, I know that's not what we're really talking about, but I would love to see that moved and that change somehow in the future.

John Simpson 12:36

I understand, Lee, that the only jurisdiction where there's an obligation from for Uber or other providers to report on the matter is, in fact, in Tasmania - is that right?

Lee Kumutat 12:49

Yes, that's what I understand as well. Yes.

Paula Hobly 12:53

Can I just share a couple of tips? Because, you know, we have all recognised here today the effort that it does take. A few things that I find help when I report to, particularly to the rideshare companies, is having an... I have an iPhone, you can set up some keyboard shortcuts. So having a few keyboard shortcuts handy that I just type a short phrase, and it dumps the entire complaint into the, you know, Tell us what happened box. 

Those things can make a difference, because it just means, when you when you're outlining what happened, it's taking less, you know, less time and energy, if you just have to type in, you know, whatever your short phrase is, and you might just have to change a couple of details, like the time and the date.

John Simpson 13:46

Well that's certainly helpful information, and you are to be congratulated on your tenacity with with this and in finding ways to to keep the advocacy going. Thank you to both of you for joining us for this week's edition of New Horizons. Paula Hobly, and we'll look forward to hearing more about her federal court case in the future. And Lee Kumutat, now national policy and advocacy manager with Guide Dogs Australia - and Lee, we'll find other ways to come back and talk to you on the program in the near future as well. 

And just a reminder that if you want to contact Blind Citizens Australia, the all important phone number 1800 033 660. That's one, 800, zero, double three, double six, zero ... or email, bca@bca.org.au ... thanks for joining me for this week's program, I'll talk to you again soon.

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