Art and Technology

Anthea:

Hi, this is Anthea Williams, and welcome to Sideshow on 2RPH. Today I'm chatting with Liz Martin. With over two decades' experience working across the Australian arts and disability sector, Liz is an advocate, producer, advisor, muso, songwriter, and CEO of Accessible Arts New South Wales. She's also an award-winning musician, and that's where I would like to start. Liz, thanks so much for joining us.

Liz:

Oh, thanks for inviting me. It's lovely to be here, yeah.

Anthea:

Hey, so, Liz, tell me, when did you first find music? And how did you first find music?

Liz:

Oh. Well, I guess like a lot of musicians, music was just everywhere in my house in my family. My mother was a piano player, and an amazing piano player who could play by ear. Sort of grew up in that era where they would stand around the piano at the end of the day and sing songs together, and she would play. So she'd have to know the song, she'd have to be able to play it in a variety of keys because people would just starting singing in any key. And then she'd pick it up, you know?

So, she was an amazing musician. She wanted us all to learn how to play piano. So, we all learned how to play piano to varying degrees of success (laughing). Also learned to play other instruments, like had a crack at the flute. Which is very hard to be angry on the flute, isn't it?

Anthea:

(laughs)

Liz:

Found it quite limiting emotionally. The tenor horn, the cornet, the guitar. I moved over to guitar. Yeah, so I had a good go at lots of things. But it was really in the home, there was lots of music. It was the sort of the family where you'd just, like, put on records and sit and listen to them as well. So, there was a real appreciation for music and books. They were the two things that were really held up as something to be revered by.

Anthea:

That's so lovely.

Liz:

Yeah, pretty good. I'm sure I'm getting older now, I'm blocking out all the bad memories (laughing) of the family.

Anthea:

(laughs) Yeah, but, but the gift of music and books, and the appreciation of that, that's pretty great.

Liz:

Yeah. It's pretty wonderful. And I guess, too, the other thing was, like, storytelling and humor. So, you know, telling stories, trying to make each other laugh, those sorts of things were really valuable.

Anthea:

And do you still play the flute?

Liz:

I don't play the flute. I didn't last with the flute very often, very long. I don't also play the flugelhorn (laughing). I tried that for a little while. Gosh, I'd take anything home from school. I still play the guitar, and I still play piano. And I still sing, yes.

Anthea:

I think that's hilarious what you say, though, about it's hard to be angry on the flute. Because a lot of women get pushed into playing the flute. And we're...

Liz:

[inaudible 00:03:04].

Anthea:

... never allowed to be angry (laughs).

Liz:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's true. It's true. There's something about it. I'm sure there's, like, intense music that's made for the flute. It's probably just my ignorance. But, yeah, I just (laughs)...

Anthea:

Maybe we just need to check out Lizzo's back catalog. She's the one who's brought the flute back.

Liz:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Anthea:

So, tell me about your music practice now, and the Liz Martin Band.

Liz:

The Liz Martin Band is like a dream come true. They're amazing musicians to play with. And I've gradually collected them over the years. So, I started with Michael Bridges, who is the violinist. And he also plays musical saw. And he and I have been playing music (laughs) together for, I don't know, like, a really, really long time. Like, over 20 years. Maybe more. I don't know. But a long, long time.

Really influencing each other as well in that process of learning how to play music together. Learning how to create space. There's something beautiful about, as a singer, playing with a violinist, because they're very similar in the roles that they play. And so you really need to know how to move around each other. And often, he will act as a harmony to my vocals. So I have to sing in tune (laughs). Which I try to do all the time.

So that's really lovely. It's beautiful working with him. And it's such a beautiful friendship. Long, long friendship, which is great. And then, uh, the next to pick up was Dirk Kruithof, who's the electric guitarist. Amazing guitarist. Plays incredibly. He's got a few bands, like he's in other bands. His own band is called Rubber Necker, and it's kind of like a... I don't know what you would call it, post-punk band maybe, art punk. I don't know, one of those genres. It's very "out there".

His... I would say his playing is very angular. Super interesting. He, when he plays... And he's got lots of different styles that he can pick up. And I guess when he plays with Liz Martin Band, it tends to be more in the style of Marc Ribot, who was the guitarist with Tom Waits.

So, really kind of, like, blues influenced. But unusual. And, he's just fabulous. And then, Michaela Davies on bass, who's a brilliant bass player and great friend. And just wonderful to have her to bounce ideas off in the band. And I have to say, to have a woman in the band, it's just fantastic. And then, Reuben Alexander was the last one we collected. And he's the drummer.

And it took a few years to actually find Reuben. And then, when we got him on board it was such a natural fit. He listens to lyrics (laughs), and the mood of a music and songwriters in a way that a lot of drummers don't. He just really pays attention. And it's all about... I think with all of them, they've all been kicking around long enough to always make it about the song. You know, there's... None of us are really  interested in ego so much anymore. So, it's all about the song, what makes the best for the song, and how we can bring that experience to the audience.

So, it's a total treat. And one of the first things I was ever told when I start gigging was to look after your band. "Always look after your band, Liz. They come first." And I'm not sure that they should come first (laughs).

Anthea:

(laughs)

Liz:

But I do really try to look after them. And in every way. And, and especially in creating music, making space for them to shine. And really to bring out their best.

Show them off a little bit as well. So, a lot of the songs that we perform are kinda classic songs with solos in them. I don't know if people do solos so much anymore, but there's often solos. Like, there'll be a violin solo, there'll be a guitar solo. I haven't yet managed to get Michaela to do a solo. But, yeah, there's those moments to really shine, for the band. Yeah. So, that's Liz Martin Band (laughs).

Anthea:

And tell me about your songwriting process. How does that, how does that work for you? How do you start?

Liz:

It's always different. But there are probably some basic elements. The other day, I recently had the flu, and I had an idea for a song (laughs) about four days into the flu, as I was moving around the flat. And so, I just quickly recorded the vocal idea on my phone. And then, a day or two later when I was a little bit better and I could manage to lie on the couch, then I started marking out the song using my phone again. Using GarageBand on my phone, and just putting the ideas down.

You know, putting a bit of guitar down, putting vocal down, scribbling some lyrics out. Then trying to work out... It always, I think, starts with the mood. Not necessarily like, "I'm gonna write a song about murder, uh, at a river," or something. It never comes that way, it's always about mood. And then, trying to tease out what is that mood, what am I kinda trying to write about? And where's the song gonna go? It's a bit sculptural, I guess. It's always been a bit sculptural. [inaudible 00:08:43] very... It's never really words first, it's always sound and space first. Notes, trying to add a bit here, take that away, push this around. It always feels to me like working with clay or something.

Anthea:

Awesome. I like the way you talk about all your musicians. I remember the last time I was coming to one of your gigs, I was, I was bringing a friend. And I, I was saying, "I think you'll really like this band." But I always feel like talking about music is like... It's like that saying, talking about music is like dancing about architecture. And I have to talk about music a lot because I work with composers when I'm directing theater. And I always apologise upfront and say, "I'm so bad at this. I just feel like it's impossible." But I was saying to this person, "You know, like, it's a bit bluesy, it's sexy. It's, it's, it's... Just come, you'll like it," you know (laughing)?

Liz:

(laughs)

Anthea:

That's all I could really come up with. And, yeah, he did. So, it was good.

Liz:

I find it really hard to... discuss what it is, what genre is it.

Anthea:

Yeah.

Liz:

What the sound is we're going for. And Dirk nailed it recently when we were trying to put some words together for a gig we had. And he was like, "It's all about the mood, Liz. And it's about the space you're creating." Rather than going, "This is," you know, "This is blues, or this is jazz, or this rock and roll," or whatever. It's about the space that we're creating. But, yeah, (laughing) it's good to know that that helps. But you end up with words like "intimate" (laughs). Which I think it is.

Anthea:

Yeah, absolutely. And I can always imagine your band, like, beside a river, all wearing fabulous, eclectic clothing. I don't know.

Liz:

Yeah, someone said gothic Australian.

Anthea:

Oh, yeah.

Liz:

And I think that kinda works. But then there's other stuff in there, in the mix that's not quite that as well.

Anthea:

Mm-hmm.

Liz:

So, I dunno. It's been many years, and I've never worked out my 30-second pitch...

Anthea:

No.

Liz:

... for what [inaudible 00:10:42] is (laughing), or what the music is.

Anthea:

Yeah. Yeah. So, as well as being a muso and a songwriter, you work in arts access. What led you into that work?

Liz:

Oh, I don't know, Anthea. It's a wiggly line, isn't it?

Anthea:

Mm-hmm, of course.

Liz:

Of all the [inaudible 00:10:59] all the combinations of where you end up. And especially, I think [inaudible 00:11:04]... Anyway, I think it's, it's been a wiggly line. It makes sense when you look back at it. I've always had two areas, so making music and creating. And then the other side, this advocacy, social justice, community work has always sat alongside it. There's always been these two elements.

Often they've been, really, very separate. And sometimes they come together to fit a bit more as a unit. And Accessible Arts, I think, is a very... it's drawing on those skills. Like, drawing on those skills as of being a musician, of knowing the industry, of knowing the sector, of knowing many, many other artists with disability and having that deep connection. And then, working in this kind of professional space of advocacy, of trying to create pathways, of trying to provide leadership opportunities for other people with disability. And kind of try and build the sector.

So, it's sort of sitting... Those two areas kind of come together really beautifully at Accessible Arts. I'm really keen and motivated to see change in the sector, to see opportunities for people with disability. And in all different kinda areas. It's very meaningful for me. I find it very personal. And I'm very connected to the work. And I can really, really see the value of it. And get a real kick out of being able to do something in that space.

Anthea:

Yeah.

Liz:

It's [inaudible 00:12:49] good. It's nice to be able to contribute.

Anthea:

Yeah, absolutely. I'm gonna drop you in it now. 'Cause...

Liz:

Okay.

Anthea:

... several years back, Accessible Arts didn't have a CEO at the time. And I said that I thought you'd be brilliant at it. And you said you didn't see yourself in that role. And now you've been doing that role for over a year. So, what changed?

Liz:

Ah, I don't know. I don't remember you saying that, to be honest. But I'm not surprised by my response. Hmm, what changed? I really liked... so I used to be the arts development manager at Accessible Arts, which is a really fun role. And I loved that role. It was really, you're really engaging with artists with disability, you're rolling out loads of projects. Very connected, it's fabulous. So I think I was quite happy in that role. I think the opportunity came up... I worked for... There was a lot of CEOs at Accessible Arts over the four years. I think I worked for something like four different CEOs. I saw a whole range of different people in that role with different kinda leadership styles. I think I learned a lot from watching them and working with them. And when the opportunity came up again, I felt kinda driven to put my hat in the ring and give it a go. And figured I could really bring my knowledge of the sector to the table, you know? And my connections there. And really,  really have a good impact. So, here I am. It's actually been two years.

Anthea:

Has it been two years?

Liz:

(laughing)

Anthea:

Oh, man. That's a lot.

Liz:

Yeah.

Anthea:

Yeah, I was so excited when you became CEO. Because I just thought you were the absolute obvious choice, and that had to happen. So, yeah.

Liz:

Wow. Wow. [inaudible 00:14:43].

Anthea:

And I have to say, I love that you're a CEO who wears Vans with jeans and cowboy shirts.

Liz:

(laughing)

Anthea:

And a mullet that you're super proud of, which is awesome. Tell me about how you run an arts organisation while staying yourself?

Liz:

Well, it's the only way to do it, isn't it?

Anthea:

Yeah.

Liz:

And I think it's really necessary, in terms of access and inclusion (laughs), to be yourself, to be authentic. To turn up and be a model of being your authentic self, saying what needs to be said. Being yourself, not feeling like you have to try and be someone else. Because you can't. It's impossible. I really look ridiculous in other clothes other than [inaudible 00:15:29] (laughing).

Anthea:

(laughs)

Liz:

Believe me, I've tried. I have some blazers, they're pretty funny. I wear them with irony. But, yeah, it definitely is, uh... I think, and I think it's something that, something fresh that we, as people with disability, can bring to the industry. You know, there's a different take on things, and different ways of doing things. And authenticity, which is really refreshing and nice. And a good thing to, to bring yourself to the room, you know?

Anthea:

Yeah. And I think that's so important as an artist. You know, actually, you have to be yourself in what you're making. Because we're making work that we want to be really human and real. So, how can you do that while wearing a blazer if you're not a blazer-wearer? Which...

Liz:

Yeah.

Anthea:

... yeah, I too have tried to wear blazers many times and never pulled it off (laughs).

Liz:

(laughing)

Anthea:

Both...

Liz:

[inaudible 00:16:29]-

Anthea:

... both real blazers and, and metaphorical blazers.

Liz:

Yeah. Well, I think, I really do think access, inclusion, representation, all of that stuff is about being human. And allowing all of us to be our complete selves, and bring ourselves to spaces. And to allow each other to bring ourselves, essentially, is what is going on.

Anthea:

Yeah.

Liz:

Remembering that we're not all the same, that there's difference. Allowing for people to bring their different into the space to be their authentic selves. If that has to start with a mullet, so be it.

Anthea:

Yeah. Yeah. And I think it does. I think it does have to start with the self. With modelling what you wanna see, yeah.

Liz:

Mm-hmm.

Anthea:

You speak about being driven to make an arts sector that is authentically representative, that's diverse and accessible to everyone. And I love that. What do you think needs to change in the arts to make that happen?

Liz:

Hmm, so many things, Anthea. I think we need to stop looking at access, inclusion, representation as a functional add-on that we have to do because of, it's the right thing to do. And start thinking about it as connection, collaboration, and a creative, open process and working together. And really, yeah, connecting with each other. And collaborating. It's the only way forward, really.

I think there's a load of things we can put into place, like KPIs and disability inclusion action plans, and training, and a real shift in awareness that's really fundamentally important. But I also think at the heart of it needs to be a drive to be creative in the space. Think about, you know, creative access, embedding access, how can we make this interesting and fun? And treating it with our creative minds that we talk about (laughing), that we have in the arts.

You know? Connecting with each other. If we're talking about stories, representing, you know, Australians, then we need to authentically start doing that at a much deeper level. And too often I'm seeing disability fall off the table and not be there. I can see a lot of change in terms of, you know, representation of women, First Nations, CALD. Um, I think all of that is fantastic and wonderful and should be celebrated. But I see a real lack, still in terms of representation of creatives with disability, and stories by and for people with disability in the arts. And that's, it's really gotta change.

And it's such a fun, creative space. And haven't we heard the same stories again and again, and again (laughing)? You know, isn't it time to have some fresh perspectives and some fresh stories written by different people? Yeah, so I see a lot of it as being this real opportunity for a positive change about creativity, collaboration, community, connection, um, and allowing each other to, to be seen. And to see each other, and really connect.

Anthea:

Yeah. I love all of that. And I think you're absolutely right, the human and the personal is absolutely part of the work. It's not something you tack on at the end. And it makes the work better.

Liz:

Yeah.

Anthea:

Yeah. Yeah. What advice do you have for artists with disability on how to take on leadership roles, and how to be leaders within the communities?

Liz:

Hmm. Interesting. I think, like, allow yourself time. Allow yourself to find your own mentors and supports. Your, your peers, your community. Allow yourself to build the skills that you're gonna need over time. Take on opportunities that stretch you, even if they feel uncomfortable. Allow yourself to mess up and make mistakes, and to feel (laughs) really horrible at time. 'Cause that's growing and learning. Yeah, allow yourself to be you and to bring your authentic self as an, as a leader. We don't need any more (laughs) white, middle-aged, male leaders. Don't try and be like anybody else. Bring, bring, bring what makes you different to the, the table. And I think there's more and more space for that.

Anthea:

Yeah, I think there is too. And it's interesting, because a lot of my work is in the disability space, but a lot of it isn't. And so often when I encounter a problem, and I, you know, solve it with generosity and simplicity... people go, "How did you figure that out?" And I'm like, "Let me introduce you to a thing called crip time." (laughs)

Liz:

(laughs)

Anthea:

Or, or something along the... or like, "You've been swimming in ableist soup. We can look at this a different way."

Liz:

Yeah, there's so many benefits to a shift in mindset that everyone would really appreciate and, and benefit from, yeah.

Anthea:

Yeah, absolutely. I think you're absolutely right. And what are your future dreams for Accessible Arts?

Liz:

Accessible Arts, I think we're in a really interesting space, like, of growth and sort of expanding, I guess, in the work that we do. Doing lots of training, and consulting. And I mean, there are some dreams that I have that, you know, we'd be able to have our own funding stream. Where we're be able to provide our own grants to, to people that could apply to Accessible Arts.

We've had a couple of opportunities where we've been able to do that. During COVID, you know, we had some money from Create NSW that we were able to roll out for Sound On, which was for musicians with disability. That was amazing. I'd love some opportunities like that. I don't know whether that's, maybe through some sort of philanthropy, or devolved funding. But I think something like that would be really excellent to give artists with disability an opportunity to have the first crack at something.

Anthea:

Yeah.

Liz:

And get it over the line, and build their CVs a little bit. You know, before then going onto the big guns like Create NSW or Creative Australia. So, there are things like that. I'd love to... I mean, a lot of what we do now is, we do a lot of internships, and mentorships, and collaborations, partnerships with arts organisations which are wonderful.

I guess the trickiness of some of that stuff is that, you know, you have to be at a certain point in your career and after something that matches that opportunity. Whereas if we had a funding program that people could dream up whatever they wanna do, and then if it's a great idea we could fund it, that would be terrific.

'Cause then it works for, you know, it works equally for artists that are starting out, emerging artists, mid-career artists, professional artists. You know, to be able to match where people are at in their space would be really great. So, I'm gonna go with that right now as a big dream.

I think there's loads of room for us to... Well, just loads of room in the industry for a lot more work with arts organisations to work better in the space. Access consulting, onsets, things like that. I think there's amazing opportunities for working with artists with disability, to get their work seen nationally and internationally. I don't know if all of these things are to be the work of Accessible Arts (laughs).

Anthea:

Yeah.

Liz:

But I think...

Anthea:

'Cause they've kind of gotta be the work of everyone as well, haven't they?

Liz:

Yeah. I think there's loads of opportunities. And now's a really good time, and a growing time. And a time of increased understanding and knowledge in the industry. So it's a great opportunity for, for loads of people to get on board and help roll those things out. There's so much work to be done.

Anthea:

Hey, that was such a great conversation. Thank you so much for joining me, Liz Martin.

Liz:

Oh, thanks Anthea. It's been lovely.

Anthea:

This is Anthea Williams on 2RPH with Sideshow. So, Hanna, you're gonna tell us what you are seeing and not seeing this month.

Hanna:

Melbourne Fringe is on. So, there's a lot going on this month. I spoke about the Radical Access panel event a few episodes back. And now with Melbourne Fringe, we actually get to see some shows in action. Arts Access Victoria's Radical Access program have commissioned a trio of works, and they all look incredible. There's The Birth and Death of a Physical Artist, featuring roya the destroya. There's also the amazing Leisa Prowd in I Am (Not) This Body.

But one that has really captured my curiosity is "...derelict in uncharted space..." which is commissioned by Chunky Move and Melbourne Fringe with a concept by Fayen d'Evie and Benjamin Hancock. "In 1974, an amateur Star Trek fan club in San Francisco launched Project Communicator, a nonprofit initiative to bring the wonderment of Star Trek to blind audiences through descriptive radio plays. For their pilot, they chose the episode Is There In Truth No Beauty, which guest-starred a blind telepath character. Despite being endorsed by the Star Trek cast and narrated by Trek actor James Doohan, Paramount perceived the project as piracy. The pilot was never released, and Project Communicator was abandoned. In this world premiere season, a stellar collaborative of dancers, artists, writers, musicians, and designers pay homage to the creative innovation and collective ethos of Project Communicator. They invite you to join them for an ambitious movement performance that experiments with possibilities for inter-sensorial translations beyond the boundaries of perceptual norms and the boundaries of space-time."

In-person showings are at Chunky Move studios October 11 to October 14. And then, after the live performance season, it will be adapted into an audio described radio performance season to be digitally broadcast online at Digital Fringe between October 18 and October 21. And there'll also be a tactile tour on Saturday the 7th of October at 2:00 PM led by artist Fayen d'Evie.

Now, what I'll be missing out on is also part of Melbourne Fringe. At Meat Market, Renay Barker-Mulholland, Blak of all trades, is presenting an exhibition, Burranba-y. This exhibition, "Highlights the deliberately slow creative practices of Blak, disabled femmes, which is contrasted by the use of fast fashion as a canvas. Burranba-y combines art and fashion to reclaim what is often seen as waste and a problem to be solved, and celebrates the beauty, joy, and identity to be found within that." So that will be happening at Melbourne Fringe, also as part of the Deadly Fringe lineup. And I'm really sorry to be missing out on that one. But I hope a lot of other people are able to go along and experience the wonderful offerings on show.

Anthea:

Thanks so much for that, Hanna. Now, to take us out this week we have the Liz Martin Band with Anthony.

Outro music:

(singing)