Ella Glendining - Is Anybody Out There?

Anthea:

Hi. This is Anthea Williams on 2RPH with Sideshow. Usually when we start the show, I go pretty quickly into interviews and I ask our guests to outline their work for our audience. But on this occasion, I didn't set up the interview with Ella Glendining myself, but via her publicist. And we were told we would only have 10 minutes. Of course, Ella was amazing and I found gold. And she gave us a lot more of her time, but I didn't get her to introduce her film to you all beforehand. So I'm gonna do that now.

Is There Anybody Out There? is a documentary that was part of this year's Sydney Film Festival. Ella, who is an artist based in Brighton, United Kingdom made that film, and it's about her trying to find someone who has a body that physically resembles her own. Of course, that's the starting point, and it becomes a film about so many other things. But it is a truly remarkable work.

I went with a dear friend of mine who I didn't meet till I was in my 30s, and she has a body that physically resembles my own. At the end of the interview, I told Ella a little bit about that and about how much I think it meant to both of us and how I could really understand and appreciate her journey.

Now, the Sydney Film Festival has finished for 2023, but it's pretty clear that this film is gonna get a general release. So over the next few months, I will let you know when it becomes available for Australian audiences again. Now, on to the interview.

Ella Glendining, thank you so much for joining us on Sideshow.

Ella:

Thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here.

Anthea:

So I loved your film. I loved that it started with a video of you dancing in your home and enjoying your body. I loved the journey that you went on, and I loved the characters that you chose to give voice to and when you chose not to bring in other voices. Congratulations. It's an amazing film.

Ella:

Thank you so much. That's really kind of you.

Anthea:

So you're a big international film star, and I know you won't have a huge amount of time so I wanna just jump straight in and say I know this film was being made over about four years. Can you tell me about the development of Is There Anybody Out There?

Ella:

Yeah. It started off as an... I knew I wanted to make a film about the experience of living in a very unusual-looking body. I didn't necessarily know it was gonna be a personal film, but that was sort of the initial seed. And it, yeah, it became more and more personal when I applied for funding from BFI Doc Society. Got some money to develop the idea, met my producer and she said, "Your story's really interesting." And then I found out I was pregnant, and that became a whole... uh, made it, you know, twice as personal and it became a huge element in the story.

Anthea:

Yeah. Absolutely. And can I just ask a little bit? I know you've made a number of short films. And unfortunately, I can't find any of them here in a way in which I can watch them. Can you tell meI went to art school and studied film production, um, which it was a really good course at the university I studied at. It was really, really practical, and I sort of, I, I guess I learned there... The best thing I learned there was less technical skills and more just, um, the ability to collaborate creatively with, with other people and work out who y I don't know. As cheesy as it sounds, I feel like the short films I've done that are really good are the ones where I just was really, really honest with myself and, um, didn't, didn't compromise on my vision if I knew in my heart what I was trying to do was the right thing.

Anthea:

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Um, can I ask, how has the film been received? And I guess I'm really interested in three groups in particular. I wanna know how the film's been received by the disability community, how it's been received by the medical community and how it's been received by parents of children with disability.

Ella:

Yeah, that's such a good question. So, I mean, so far, um, I've mostly heard from disabled people who have watched it, and I am so, so, so happy with how it's been... being received in, in that regard. People love it. Disabled people love it and say it really speaks to them.

And although I think, if you are, if you identify as disabled and politically disabled and... like, I'm not really saying anything revolutionary in this film. Not for people who feel the way that I do about disability, but I think still just getting to the heart of what it feels like as a disabled person in an ableist world - I think that's not been done before, perhaps not in this way. So that's been really recognised and appreciated by the disabled community.

Medical community? I haven't really heard from anyone. I don't... I'm not sure why. The only people I can think of is that I had a friends and family screening and, my obstetrician, who delivered River, and my midwife came and they watched it. And they loved it. But it is funny. I mean, they're very, like... yeah, they're sort of sciencey people, so they weren't as demonstrative and gushy. But they liked it. You know? I wonder if, if perhaps it will feel a bit confronting to some of the medical community. I don't know.

And parents of disabled children, I've had, yeah, some really amazing feedback. Yeah, I've had messages from parents saying that they were really conflicted about their child, about whether they should go down the medical intervention route, and that seeing me being loud and proud has made them feel like they don't necessarily need to. And, I mean, that's, like, yeah. Amazing. It's beyond my wildest dreams, really, the feedback I've been getting.

Anthea:

Yeah. I loved your father in the film. I loved him so much.  I loved that moment where he talked about wondering why he was meant to be... I don't think comparing is the word he said, but he was trying to figure out why people kept on talking about normal.

And I just... That was such a watershed moment for me in the film where your father was going, "Actually, I wanna look about... look at if she's happy. I don't wanna look at if she's got a normal-looking body." And I said that, inverted commas, knowing that this is a radio show, so that doesn't work so well. But I thought that was a really powerful. And I just thought, "What a spectacular man, and how wonderful he was having that realisation so many decades ago."

Ella:

I know. It is amazing, isn't it? I'm, I'm so grateful for my parents because... And it also... it just wasn't an issue for them. It wasn't like they did loads of research and were, like, weighing out their options in this really big way. They were lit... they just accepted me and I got along fine, and so they carried on accepting me. And I lived my life and had a fairly normal childhood.

Yeah, I'm just... I'm really grateful. They weren't worried. They just wanted me to be happy and, yeah. I think that's all you need as a child. As a disabled child as well.

Anthea:

So as a documentary maker, can you talk to me a little bit about the characters that you decided to add in? We speak... we hear from both of your parents, and we hear from your friend Naomi. I'm right with that name? Naomi is the one who is your friend who's autistic?

Ella:

Yes.

Anthea:

And we don't hear so much from your partner Scott, which I loved as a choice. And you even commented on that in the film. But can you tell me a little bit about how you decided who the voices were that we should hear?

Ella:

Yes. Sure. Um, I think my parents were sort of pretty, pretty obvious contributors,  especially when I got pregnant and that became a whole element, is me questioning how I'd feel if my child was disabled and things. So yeah, and I did the interviews with my parents very... pretty early on in filming. It was, yeah, it would be one of the first days of filming, these talking head interviews with my parents.

And yeah, Naomi... I always knew I wanted to include her. I feel like people with invisible disabilities are, poorly represented, not represented enough. So that was important to me. And I also just found it really interesting how deeply we sort of connect and understand each other, even though our disabilities are completely the opposite in a way. So I think... yeah, I just felt that was something interesting and worth kind of discussing.

And I also just wanted to show disabled people behaving like people. You know, seeing us smoking and drinking and stuff. That's sort of some of the, one of the only things that I've had bad kind of feedback on since the film has come out, is that people are saying, "I wish, I wish you weren't smoking," and things like that. But I think, and I have quit smoking now by the way, but I think that it's, like, really radical to see disable people behaving "badly," in inverted commas. And...

Anthea:

I completely agree with you. I loved that when you went to America, your first reaction was, "I just hope she wants to have a glass of wine with me."

Ella:

Yeah. (laughs) Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's just human, isn't it?

And then yeah, the Scott thing. That's my favorite part of the film, I think. Well, I just, I love, that I included the conversation around disabled... partners of disabled people being heralded as these angels and heroes for dating someone, someone with a disability. It's, you know, such a bugbear within the disability community and it's really damaging and offensive, and it's just... yeah.

I mean, I say it in the film, but I got so much feedback during the process of making the film, so many requests to interview Scott from potential funders and people like that.  People found it really weird that I wasn't interviewing him, and I found it really weird that they wanted me to because he's just not relevant to the story. He was just my non-disabled boyfriend. It's not about... This film's, you know, this is for disabled people. It's... Yeah. [inaudible 00:11:26].

Anthea:

I completely agree with you. And yet, I loved when he entered the film visually. It's such a beautiful image of him shirtless putting on his socks. He looks gorgeous. It feels like it's absolutely your gaze. You feel so in charge of that moment, and it feels just like you're such a fabulous, sexy woman at that moment looking at him. And I enjoyed that so much.

Ella:

Thank you. Yeah, that was a bit of a random late edition to sort of introduce him in, in that way. But I like it, and I've had a couple of other comments about it feeling like a cheeky little female gaze moment. So I'm... Yeah, I like that as well. Thank you.

Anthea:

Yeah. How long down the process, or what part in the process did you start to bring in the archival footage that you brought in?

Ella:

The archive from Disability History?

Anthea:

Yeah.

Ella:

Yeah. I don't... I can't actually remember how long, 'cause initially I was gonna in-... I always wanted some sort of archival element, but I was going to use clips from old sci-fi films to emphasise my feeling of alienation and stuff. And then I changed my mind about that just 'cause I thought, you know, we've got such a rich history. And also, I want to show how, yeah, how horrible things have been for us in the past and also, in a way, how little has changed, especially in terms of attitudes and the way that disabled people are valued.

So I had an amazing research assistant, Kate O'Mahony, who, who gathered lots of archive footage for me and my editor to look through. And it was very harrowing, actually. I mean, there was some really harrowing stuff, particularly from institutions, that we didn't include 'cause it was just too, too upsetting. And I wanted my film to be joyful. And I think I had to find a bit of a balance with the archive footage, 'cause I also didn't want it to take away from my story and I also wanted it to connect to my story, of course.

But yes, little Kevin, who's, yeah, a little boy in s-... from the archive footage. He had films made about him when he was a kid in the '60s. And I just fell in love with him, just his amazing, sparky character, and I, and I... Yeah. That was, I think, my favorite bit of archive.

Anthea:

It's so delicious and it's so wonderful when he comes back.

Ella:

I know.

Anthea:

I just...

Ella:

The best. It's my favorite thing.

Anthea:

And he's still sparky and cheeky, and it was wonderful seeing the life that he's led.

Ella:

Yes. Exactly. Yeah, the fact that he was a major activist and defied expectations, but not in a sort of inspiration-porn way, just in that he lived the life that he was told he wouldn't be able to live. And I just love that for him, and it's the case with so many disabled people, I think.

Anthea:

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's really true. And yet, at the same time, you can see that having disability has absolutely shaped his life, but a lot of it is for the better. Like, he's been political. He's been radical. And all of those things have probably made his life more interesting, and it's not a negative.

Ella:

Yeah. Exactly. I see it as such a gift. Like, I wouldn't change it for the world. And yeah, it's really frustrating that non-disabled people can't seem to get their heads around that.

Anthea:

Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So the film went to Sundance, and I just saw it at the Sydney Film Festival. It's been picked up by Madman distributors. Can you tell me where else it's going and what else are your hopes for it?

Ella:

Yeah. It's going all over the place. (laughs) It's going all over the place. It's mad. The next screening, the next premiere is a UK premiere which is Sheffield DocFest on Saturday, the 17th of this month. So I'm very excited for that because I've not been on any trips with it in a while. I went to a few festivals with it early in the year, but then I missed my son so I stopped going for a bit. (laughs) I went to Thessaloniki in Greece, which is beautiful, and... Oh God, my mind's gone blank. I went to a few festivals earlier.

Anyway, Sheffield is the next festival, which is a big deal and exciting. And aiming for a cinema release in autumn this year. Yes, hopefully. I'm hoping it will also make it onto a streaming platform eventually so that everyone can watch it from their own homes.

Anthea:

Yeah, I hope so too.

Ella:

[inaudible 00:16:30]... Thank you.

Anthea:

And what's your next project?

Ella:

My next project is a historical drama, so very different. I'm writing at the moment. I've nearly finished the first draft of the screenplay called Curiosities of Fools, which I'm writing [inaudible 00:16:47]. So it's very different content, but the same sort of themes. It's about, uh, the life of a court dwarf in the 1600s and his journey to overcoming his internalised ableism and finding community with the court fools of the palace. So very mad and exciting.

Anthea:

It sounds wonderful. We...

Ella:

Thank you.

Anthea:

... in Australia, look on at what's happening in the UK and we're really impressed by a lot of the work that the British film... industry is doing in order to bring about more access. And also, we're really impressed by how many people with disability we see on screen, which I know will probably be slightly surprising for you guys to hear because it's still not enough. It's still not representation as it is in the real world. But I'd love to find out from you what you think are some of the programs that really helped you when you were beginning to find your voice and what your advice is to Australian makers.

Ella:

Ooh. Okay. I think yeah, I am such an advocate of finding allies, industry allies who really seem to get you and get what you're trying to do with your work. I'm, yeah, I'm also a big advocate of yes, schemes, short filmmaking schemes. That's how I've become a director, is that I applied to a couple of short filmmaking schemes when I was out of university. And so I've got to make couple of short films about the, yeah, about disability, about life as a disabled person, and, and it's... For me, it just sort of went from there, really. So I think being really authentic with your voice and with what you're trying to say, making good allies and applying to short film schemes is my advice.

Anthea:

Fantastic. Hey, thank you so much. I loved your film so much, and I can't wait to see what you make next.

Ella:

Thank you so, so much. It was lovely chatting to you.

Anthea:

Welcome back to 2RPH and Sideshow with Anthea Williams and Hanna Cormick. Hanna, we're halfway through the season, so I thought it would be a really great time to have another conversation about our what's on and why we do it and why we do it together and how you experience art. So can you tell the listeners a little bit about your experience of watching and making art currently?

Hanna:

Sure. Well, due to severe immune disease, I've spent the last nearly eight years living in an isolation room on the unceded lands of the Ngunnawal and Ngambri peoples. So I mention what's going on each month. And usually, that includes one thing I am able to access from my room here and one thing that I can't access, but I wish I could. And this kind of opens up options not only for the people who are going out and seeing events live, but also for the bedridden and housebound community.

Anthea:

Yeah. And yet, you are like my favorite person to talk about art and performance with because you have seen and experienced so much.

Hanna:

Well, yeah. I mean, before I was living in this room, I worked in performance. And I, you know, I still do. I still create performance art in a very different way. But I used to go out and see a lot of things, and I still... I really miss that, and I love being able to access those things when I am able to.

Anthea:

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, it seems to me that you watch very broadly, and you make sure that you get to experience a lot of really amazing art from around the globe.

Hanna:

And there's a lot. There's a lot of amazing art being made by a lot of amazing disabled artists.

Anthea:

So what are you recommending this month that you get to see and that you don't get to see?

Hanna:

Firstly, what I'm not seeing but I really, really wish I was, are the works coming to Next Wave in Melbourne for Disability Pride Month. First is Belinda Locke's work, Under My Tongue. And it's described as "Director Belinda Locke uses performance to unearth invisible challenges that people face in their lives every day. Drawing from anonymous submissions about real life experiences, Under My Tongue delves into the politics of connection, the aesthetics of access and the unseen aspects of people's identities, histories and emotional lives."

It's a movement-based performance with vibrational sound and no spoken word with two performers, Amanda Lever and Joseph Stewart, making the invisible visible with deep empathy, exposing vulnerabilities and desires. It's specifically designed to increase access for the artists and audiences, particularly those who are deaf or hard of hearing - and this work is brutally honest but fundamentally gentle, opening up conversation about fears, longing for connection and intimacy. It's on at Brunswick Mechanics Theatre Tuesday the 18th of July to Sunday 23rd of July, though Wednesday the 19th is an invite-only opening night. On the 22nd of July, there will be Auslan interpretation for pre and post-show socialising. There'll be audio description for the performance on the 23rd of July. And there'll be a quiet room available, which you can use at any time during the performance. There are gender neutral and accessible toilets, and there'll be staff available on the day and beforehand to ensure everyone can attend. And there's a content warning that there are references to medical settings and mental health challenges.

Now, alongside this from the 18th to the 30th of July, people can experience two other events happening at Next Wave. There is an exhibition in the studio of Larissa MacFarlane's disability pride artworks, and there's also a quiet space developed by Prue Stevenson where you can also meet four artists who've engaged in a creative conversation in response to the themes explored in Under My Tongue. Extra information about the exhibition opening hours are available on the Next Wave website.

Anthea:

That sounds amazing.

Hanna:

I know. It's... so many amazing artists presenting in the one location. And oh, I wish I could go see it. So I hope that lots of other people do.

Now, what I am going to see is Melbourne Fringe is hosting an event in partnership with Arts Access Victoria. And that's under the umbrella of their 10-year social change project, Radical Access. So this is going to be hosted by the amazing Carly Findlay, and it will also include of a screening of a segment of Alice Wong's The Last Disabled Oracle, which is a work that was part of the Assembly for the Future which I attended when it was on a number of years ago. So that's a really exciting event to be able to see. It also includes a discussion which is hosted by Fayen D'Evie with writer and artist Asphyxia, writer and comedian Alistair Baldwin, poet Andy Jackson and dancer and performer Melinda Smith.

And then on top of that, there is an exhibition going on and there's also a pop-up performance by cabaret and theater performer Artemis Muñoz.

The event will be Auslan interpreted and livestreamed. A quiet space will be available, and the venue is wheelchair accessible. Masks and sanitizer will be available, and social distancing will be encouraged. And there's more access inclusion information on the State Library Victoria website.

Anthea:

Fantastic. I'm always so impressed by how Fringe festivals, even though they often have much smaller budgets, just manage to be so much more inclusive.

Hanna:

It really depends who's in charge of access. And I have to say that Carly has been doing really amazing work over the number of years that she's been involved with Melbourne Fringe. I think that a lot of other Fringe festivals can learn from what Melbourne's been doing.

Anthea:

Yeah. You're absolutely right. And I think that you are about to work on a conference called I Dance II. That sounds wonderful.

Hanna:

That's right. I'm one of the co-curators of I Dance II. And it's being presented by Liz Lea and my fellow co-curator, Matt Shilcock. And it's a conference that's celebrating the creation and distribution of dance films created by artists living with disability. And it will be part of Canberra's Uncharted Territory festival.

There are two parts to it. One is a live event at the National Film and Sound Archive, which is part of... under the Uncharted Territory festival umbrella. But then it's going be sitting online for two weeks, for relaxed and accessible viewing of films offered with captions, Auslan, audio descriptions and, where possible, BSL and, audio description offered in different languages as well for some of the films.

I'll be presenting a short keynote speech, as will Matt Shilcock, and then we've got some amazing films from companies like Restless, Marc Brew, Riana Head-Toussaint, Chris Dyke, the Chamaeleon Collective, Diverse Abilities Dance Collective, Claire Cunningham and many more. So the live event of I Dance II will be at the National Film and Sound Archive starting at 10:00 AM on Monday the 10th of July, and then it will be online for two weeks afterwards.

Anthea:

Fantastic. And PONY, the show that I have directed for Griffin Theatre, is traveling to Canberra. It's gonna be on at the Canberra Theatre Centre from the 22nd of June to the first of July. I hope anyone based in the ACT can make it.

Hey, Hanna. Thanks again so much for your recommendations. It's always wonderful chatting to you.

Hanna:

Thanks to you as well.

Anthea:

Now to take us out today, we have a small excerpt of Synths in a Dark Room by Sab.

(singing)