Spaces - Eliza Hull

Sam Drummond 00:03

What makes a great space, and how does a space influence the way we live, who we interact with, and ultimately where we see ourselves in our communities? I'm Sam Drummond, and this is Spaces on Powered Media. Each episode, I'm taking our guests to their favourite place. We'll get an insight into why that space works for them, share some of the moments that have changed their lives, and hopefully learn something along the way.

You're listening to Spaces, I'm Sam Drummond. I'm here at somewhere close to my heart, but I've been brought here by another person. Today we're speaking to Eliza Hull, who's a musician, a writer, and a disability advocate. And we've come to the Castlemaine Botanic Gardens. Thanks for coming on the show, Eliza.

Eliza Hull 00:59

Thank you for having me.

Sam Drummond 01:01

Tell me, why did you choose this space as your favourite place?

Eliza Hull 01:07

Well, I'm sorry that I've pulled you out on a freezing cold day. It's slightly drizzly as well today. I chose the Botanical Gardens in Castlemaine on Jarrah Country because it's probably the only place I can go walking. A lot of the land here is so beautiful, but it's you know, there's the goldfields track and it's very rugged and hard to navigate. It's somebody with a disability that affects the way that I walk. But here you can do little like really tiny walks. So there's the one area that you can walk where you get to see the ducks and there's like a laughing duck. You might be able to hear that in the background where it actually laughs. There it is.

Sam Drummond 01:56

Is that the one, there's one laughing duck and you can pick it out every time?

Eliza Hull 02:00

It's always laughing, it's pretty cool. Or you can do the bigger walk that has the kids playground or the really big walk. And I think I've only done that a couple of times where I felt really energised on that particular day.

Sam Drummond 02:14

So we're on a floodplain, essentially. Is this why it's it's flat and walkable for you?

Eliza Hull 02:19

It's flat, walkable, and beautiful. I love all the seasons changing here. Spring is really beautiful here. But all the seasons, I feel like it's just quite a stunning place. And it's also a nice area to bring my kids to. I feel like kids need a run. You take them out for a bit of getting rid of that energy, I guess, and this is a nice place to do it. And it's been the place where I've, you know, when my children were really little, getting them to sleep here, the pram, because it's, is that, you know, really flat area.

This particular spot that we're in, what did you call it? A rotunda. Yeah, the rotunda. That's right. I mean, a lot of musicians play here. Sometimes in summer, people will come and rehearse and just sing here. And my daughter called it her work for some reason. She'd come here and this was work. She'd pretend that this was like the place that she'd come. I think she always wanted to be a performer and still, to this day, still does. So I guess, yeah, this place holds memories as well. And it's just been also a nice place to meet people, to connect with people. 

And I moved here eight years ago from Melbourne. And I think I was afraid that I would, I mean, I came here with no, didn't know anyone except for one person. And I think feeling like, wow, how am I gonna do this? How am I gonna meet new people? And it has slowly happened. I think this has been a beautiful meeting, the place where I could walk alongside somebody and have a chat.

Sam Drummond 03:55

You mentioned it's cold. It is the... That's weird shaking right now. We're now a couple of weeks into winter. What is it about winter here that you like? There are trees that I can see that are bare or almost bare. There are some trees who haven't that haven't shed their winter leaves yet but they're just orange and red. Is it that nature that you enjoy about the Botanical Gardens?

Eliza Hull 04:27

Like we've even had like loads of bats here lately as well, so that's been really interesting to show the kids, like, Oh look at all the bats up in the tree! And I think winters it is hard living here, I'm not gonna lie, like sometimes I'm like, What am I doing? Because my disability is a neurological condition, and it not only affects the way that I walk and, you know, my hands and my body, it actually affects the way that I regulate my temperature - so even on a hot summer's day I can feel really cold, but extra extra cold when it's winter - so I feel like this is probably not the best area to live in, and sometimes I'm like, Why don't I live where it's warm?

Sam Drummond 05:12

I feel like I need to pass you a rug or something, just talking about that - or put on the blow heater. So what extra things have you done since moving here eight years ago? It's much different than living in a city near the coast. Those temperature extremes, you know, might be five or ten degrees hotter in summer and five and ten degrees colder in winter. What extra things do you do?

Eliza Hull 05:42

I've tried lots of things. I even bought slippers you could put into the microwave. That didn't really work very well. I think the thing that I have to do every single day is have a bath. And luckily I have a great bath and it just helps. Like, otherwise I'm in a lot of pain and I just can't regulate my temperature. I'm absolutely freezing. So that, and also electric blanket. I worry that the electric blanket's like a... is that causing other, probably you know, cancer maybe? I don't know. But I think it'll be fine. I just put it on at the start and then turn it off. Also we have a fire inside our house which has been a real game changer.

Sam Drummond 06:24

So I did say this is close to my heart - and it's because I lived here as a kid, and so some of those experiences I'm really identifying, like the electric blanket, and I moved here when I was 11 and it was a shock and I... that electric blanket, just having that on all night, I don't think - not sure of the research, but I'm pretty sure it's it's just warmth and not carcinogenic, I think you're okay. I worried about the fires that might happen if you got a dodgy one. Oh gosh. 

But yeah, I do distinctly remember that shock of coming into a Castlemaine winter, and there's been that influx of people over... you're one of the early birds, is doing it pre-pandemic, but post, you know in a sort of post-Covid world, although it's going around, do you see people coming in and moving here and seeing that shock, that people weren't expecting it to be so cold, or yes, absolutely, like, how do you do it?

Eliza Hull 07:34

That's what I think, you do get used to it though. Like I think the first couple of years, you're like, Whoa, this is freezing. Yeah. I mean, we just went half an hour down the road once during winter and we're like, Oh, it's snowing. It was a real shock. That was like the second year we lived here.

Sam Drummond 07:54

But at least if it's snowing, there's some payoff. It's not just cotton. Exactly.

Eliza Hull 07:59

You get something out of that cold.

Sam Drummond 08:01

So at the Botanical Gardens, have you ever walked around the whole area? It's a big walk.

Eliza Hull 08:09

Yeah, I think it's a couple of Ks. Yeah.

Sam Drummond 08:11

But that's some foresight that somebody's had. This is a Gold Rush town. Somebody's had that at some time and that they've reserved this space. And I guess that's any parkland in any town or any city. But what do you feel as you do that walk or do that circuit? Is that a letting go moment or a focussing? If you're thinking about writing a new song or writing a new chapter of a new book or a new project. Is this where you do that?

Eliza Hull 08:58

It's both. I think if I come here with my kids like that, they kind of run off - and then that's time to think about things, and I often write like lyrics in my phone or do little voice memos and then go home and work on the song. But other times it's been like, really great conversations with friends. Often it feels like therapy really like where you're talking about things that are really hard or there was also I broke my leg last year and that's that was kind of me realising that because of my disability it's a lot, I'm more prone to breaking my bones - and all I was doing was going down a slide with my daughter and then realising that Okay, this is, you know, this is different.

But what it actually enabled was a friend of mine to really like become even more ingrained in my life and brought me here, and you know, at some points was, you know, pushing me in a wheelchair - but then also times where I was, you know, learning to walk again, this was just a great place to come because it's flat - so I guess yeah it's kind of it's just been a good place for me to move really which is hard to do like in a way I think it was it's... kind of the opposite of what you might expect - like, you know, cafes are really big in my life, my music... so my music space, I could have chosen that, but I think it is, yeah I wanted to show I guess just that moving my body is kind of like in a way doing that thing that people don't, you know, have really kind of pushed up against, you know what you know.  

When I walk, often people will stare or always say What's wrong with you? Or What did you do to yourself? And so in a way by being around here and walking with friends is kind of like, not caring about any of that.

Sam Drummond 11:03

And is there something about living in a small town? Everyone, or more and more every year you live here, more people are going to get to know you. Is that an advantage or a disadvantage, if people see you down the street and they go, Well, that's Eliza, and that's how she walks, rather than being in a city where there are millions of people and new people every day, or you'll never see again, or will just stare.

Eliza Hull 11:36

I think it's totally an advantage. Yeah, I think at the beginning, I definitely felt, I think, you know, I'd just had a baby. So my daughter was 10 months old. And so I was really navigating parenthood at that time. And I was so nervous. I was trying to do it right. And so I was really, really cautious. Like probably, you know, silly cautious in the way that I would get my daughter out of the car or push the pram. I did have one fall right at the beginning where, you know, she was strapped in the pram, but I did, the pram did come up in the air when it fell. 

So I guess that really knocked my confidence. I thought, goodness, like am I, does this mean I'm a bad mum? And so I guess I was really trying, really trying to do it right. And I think that's what I did notice when I came here. I was like, Oh, people are staring a bit. And there were some comments occasionally, but now, you know, eight years in, it is not, it is the opposite. It is, I don't, I don't get stared at here at all. The opposite, like people often will come up and say, I heard your music or, you know, I saw you on that, or I've been reading your article or, you know, just really great things. And everyone's just so kind here actually. I feel so, so included here.

Sam Drummond 12:58

So over the other side of the creek from the Botanical Gardens is a caravan park and then the hill goes up to a hospital, but the hospital is not open all the time. And trying to find a pharmacy this morning on a Sunday, they're not open. What are the facilities that you're missing in a country town as opposed to being in the city where everything's open all the time?

Eliza Hull 13:26

Yeah, like I get I get a bit afraid of that, actually, like the fact that you can't get an ambulance here for hours. You can't... you know, there's no way if something really was to go wrong. There's no hospital that can really cover that. You'd have to go to Bendigo. It's about a 50 minute drive. Yeah, the fact that a pharmacy is not open that is it's it's annoying. But I also that's kind of like the beauty in it as well. Well, because, you know, all those big department stores that we get so used to just going there and spending money. You just don't have that here. You don't have all the fast food shops here. I like that. I'm, I don't miss that at all. 

What I do miss is live music constantly happening every night. Yeah. The community that comes with that and just the fact that you can order food at any time. Go out for dinner at nine o 'clock at night. Whereas here, everything's pretty much shut by eight p.m.

Sam Drummond 14:25

There's music most nights though, and you're part of this.

Eliza Hull 14:29

Yeah, there is music Thursday, Friday, Saturday night, I'd say. But the other days, yeah.

Sam Drummond 14:36

You grew up in a rural town that was a little bit bigger than this. But that was as a kid, and you've come a long way since then. What's the difference between growing up in a country town as a kid and actively choosing this country town as an adult?

Eliza Hull 14:53

Yeah, good question. I think they were very different, but maybe that's because I was different. So I feel like back then, a person that would just, I was so afraid of who I was. As you know, we all are really, when we look back at it, teenage years, it's so hard for anybody whether you have a disability or not. Yeah, I just really feared who I, my disability, I would hide it at all costs. I would, yeah, just try and really not stand out. I think singing and music was really the saviour, like it was a place that I could go and hide and write songs in the music room. 

There were a lot of good things about the town, but I could never go back. I could never go back. It holds a lot of painful memories that town actually. Yeah. A lot of just horrible things happen there, bullying and worse, you know, and my family still live there. And look, there's times where I go back and I can see the natural environment more now. I think when you're again, you're a teenager, maybe you just don't appreciate birds and the natural world as much.

Sam Drummond 16:17

Cockatoos scream.

Eliza Hull 16:19

Exactly. So I think you know that that could be part of it, but when I do go back I go, Wow, it is quite beautiful in some pockets of Albury-Wodonga. Now here in Castlemaine I did choose regional but like I was I was in Melbourne for goodness like yeah like maybe 15 years or something or just under. I had done the rounds of music playing at the Espy, the Evelyn, the Vineyard, Voluto, in a row like every week Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. I really gave it a shot, and you know when we look on social media help goes back with your memories, it's the only thing that really keeps me there.

It's always like, Wow, I was playing a show, that I was playing a show every single, you know, like, so I think I got to a point with Melbourne and I get to go back all the time, it's only down the road really.

Sam Drummond 17:18

There's a tension in what you've just talked about, about trying to hide yourself through music. And this is something that I think a lot of musicians might face, but if you are going to do anything through music, you're going to have to release those songs and probably perform in front of people. And that must be revealing. Does it feel like you're the same person when you're on stage, or are you still hiding yourself a little bit?

Eliza Hull 17:51

I think that a lot of people hide themselves on the stage, I think that it's like, I think a lot of people that perform are really shy. I think I'm both an extrovert and introvert, like I love being inside with just people that I know.

Sam Drummond 18:09

There's gotta be... no name for that.

Eliza Hull 18:12

Yeah, that feel, that thing. I'm both. Yeah. I guess being on stage, it feels like the extrovert does come out - but of course there's little parts of me that doesn't, you know, I don't show everything of who I am at times when you're on stage. But it's been something I've been thinking more and more, about actually is like those big questions, Who am I and What do I really want to say, and... What do I really want to express? And have I really been doing that to my, you know, full capacity, or am I still caught up in and trying to mask?

Sam Drummond 18:50

But that has come through in your music over the last couple of years, where you're bringing your disabled identity into your music much more. Yeah, exactly. I can only imagine that was a conscious decision. How did you come to that?

Eliza Hull 19:05

Oh, like it didn't just come over, you know, overnight. It was years and years of thinking about it. Feel like, you know, I guess falling in love, like really falling in love with somebody that could love you. And then that made, you know, you kind of love yourself. Having children, wanting to be authentic for them. And also like society shifting and going, Oh, OK, like it's OK to disclose I have a disability. I'm not going to miss out on that gig or... I think now I'm just navigating. It's so interesting, isn't it? Because it's like hiding, not talking about it, you know, sitting down so people didn't notice, hide, pulling the curtain so that I could get up on stage without people seeing that I struggled to get up to the opposite.

And it's like now, whenever I speak to anybody in the music industry, it'll be because I have a disability and I'm just. I don't know, sometimes I just would like to. Not be back with the hiding, because that was really like it was such a weight, it was exhausting, like having to, like literally, you know, try and meet somebody in the music industry and hope that I could get to that cafe or somewhere before they got there so that they wouldn't see me walking in. And it was just such a struggle to always feel like I was on edge.

So I'm so glad I'm past that. But I guess now I'm navigating. Like, could I make a record now where I don't talk about disability? Yeah. Would I get booked for a gig now if I if I wasn't on a festival that is about disability? All of those things I'm kind of trying to figure out. But I also think that there's some nothing more important than doing that work, because emerging artists with disability would, you know, get to see an artist with disability. And that that is something I really missed out on because it just wasn't that representation. Yeah.

Sam Drummond 21:04

But you're talking about some sort of balance where disability doesn't explain everything about you but it doesn't explain nothing about you, it's somewhere in between.

Eliza Hull 21:16

Yeah. Yeah.

Sam Drummond 21:17

But there has to be a space for you where you don't have to be either.

Eliza Hull 21:23

Exactly. And it's so, the thing that I was so afraid of has now brought confidence, actually, like, because to, to write, and eat, this is, you know, quite personal, but to write an email to a record person and say, I'm an artist with a disability, is almost like, that is a good thing now - like, which is so incredible. Like, we've come to that point. I'm now I'm like, How do I just be an artist as well, you know, but yeah.

Sam Drummond 21:51

Because you don't want to be just getting a job because you have a disability, it's because you're an amazing artist who does have a disability as well.

Eliza Hull 22:01

And I guess I've lost that confidence in my own music, actually, I've realised. Like, I probably don't see myself as good enough as an artist. So that's something that I'm working on now, maybe. 

Sam Drummond

Yeah, but you are.

Eliza Hull 22:15

We'll see.

Sam Drummond 22:17

What's the next step in that then? Is there an album where you're exploring those issues, or are you doing some more writing around this?

Eliza Hull 22:29

Yeah, like maybe I need to. I've been writing a lot and, you know, there is still one song but it's more about disability rights issues, like because in... it's kind of like, I'm speaking as like a collective in the song about historical stigma and discrimination and pushing back on that and kind of raising our voices so I guess that's like one of the songs I've written but a lot of the other songs don't speak about disability they speak about lots of different things so.

Sam Drummond 23:00

What's your favorite thing to write about? Love.

Eliza Hull 23:03

Ha ha ha ha ha! Past, you know, past experiences, breakups, all that sort of thing.

Sam Drummond 23:11

Do you reckon people know if the song's about them?

Eliza Hull 23:15

Yeah, I do sometimes. That's an interesting one, actually.

Sam Drummond 23:21

What goes through your mind if you're recording something and you're like, Oh, this person's really gonna, they're gonna know and they're gonna hate it.

Eliza Hull 23:28

Oh look, I probably like that feeling, that risk associated with it... like, what are they gonna think of it? But also maybe I can send the messages through those songs, yeah, things I couldn't say that I've always wanted to say is something kind of, I don't know, powerful in that...

Sam Drummond 23:48

Would you ever tap someone on the shoulder or send them an email and say, Hey, you should listen to this, listen to this?

Eliza Hull 23:56

Yeah, there was one song two records ago called Rewind. I got played a bit on the radio and yeah, I sent that to that particular person because we saw each other at a birthday party and it was like we'd only just met and that was one of the lines in the song. Because it did, it just felt so strange. I think it's so odd that you can be so intimate with somebody for so many years and then years later almost be, like strangers. I just think that's such an odd thing for humans, that we just kind of let go and forget, but don't really also.

Sam Drummond 24:35

But this seems to be part of your story here, and why you've brought us here as well, is because you've reinvented yourself in Castlemaine... and in a place where you can walk these gardens and be known as the person you've created over the last eight years.

Eliza Hull 24:52

Hm, sorry that made me really emotional, I couldn't... yeah, sorry, that's really brought up emotion for me. I think it's made me emotional because yeah, this place is where I can... like it sounds so cheesy, but it is just where I can totally be myself - and that is just so, so good. After years of just hating myself this has enabled me to just be comfortable and okay with who I am, and like, like myself - so when I'm walking on, you know, on these, through these gardens, I just... yeah, I feel really just at peace I guess, and just feel like Okay, this is where I belong... and for a long time I haven't really felt that, so I think you're spot on. That's all right, that's it, the emotions came up, you're so good at doing this.

Sam Drummond 25:57

I almost want to leave it there - but I do want to ask one more thing, because you're getting more involved in radio and you're like a bit of a rising star radio host these days.

Eliza Hull 26:14

I don't know about that, but yeah, I do love radio, like I, such a beautiful medium.

Sam Drummond 26:19

Is there something about hiding yourself behind a microphone as well though, if you're in a studio in Southbank and you get to talk to people around Victoria and around Australia? How do you find that experience in putting yourself out there but not putting your whole self out there because you are in a little black room?

Eliza Hull 26:47

Yeah, I guess for me it still feels like putting myself out there, because it's not something that's completely come natural to me, so I feel like I'm really having to work hard at it. But yeah, I think there is some, I guess, some sort of ability to hide through it, but I think the greatest people that I love listening to on radio are the ones that don't hide through it. I, yeah, I was just... one particular person that comes to mind is David Astle. Yeah, on evenings. That just, I just...

Sam Drummond 27:34

Because you like doing his crosswords. 

Eliza Hull 27:37

I just love [?] to him. The way that he interviews people, he gets the greatest stories out of people. And I am doing the disability arts reporting with him once a month. That's been really great, because I'm bringing people with disability onto his show that wouldn't normally potentially be on his show, like people with intellectual disability. And I think he's really been thankful for that. But he's just been so good with being open to any suggestion that I have. And the way that he's on, you know, just storytells us, it's so beautiful.

Sam Drummond 28:20

If you were still here, you'd had, you'd done everything that you wanted to do in music and writing and radio and you decided to retire... what do you think a walk in this park would feel like?

Eliza Hull 28:37

Calm, I think, peaceful, like a sense of completion, just that, yeah, I guess just that knowing that I've, you know, I've lived a life of purpose and I've hopefully done all I can to be true to myself and to always think about other people as well. Like I think that's something that I really try and hold onto and instill in my kids, is just to be kind to others, to think about others. So I think that would, that's what I would feel and just all the memories would come flooding back of this beautiful land and all the beautiful trees and the beautiful memories that we've had here as a family and with all my friends.

Sam Drummond 29:25

Eliza Hull, thanks very much for bringing me to your favourite space.

Eliza Hull 29:28

Thank you so much.

Sam Drummond 29:29

Spaces was recorded on Wurundri, Jara and Bunnarong land. Spaces was produced by Humdinger for Powered Media. The series was created by Sam Drummond with support from Emma Sharp and Lucy Griffin at Humdinger. Field audio recording by Matthew Hoffman. Editing by Simon McCulloch.