Spaces - Sam Lilly

Sam Drummond 00:03

What makes a great space and how does a space influence the way we live, who we interact with and ultimately where we see ourselves in our communities? I'm Sam Drummond and this is Spaces on Powered Media.

Sam Drummond 00:18

Each episode I'm taking our guests to their favourite place. We'll get an insight into why that space works for them, share some of the moments that have changed their lives and hopefully learn something along the way.

Sam Drummond 00:35

Today we're off to a place close to my heart. For some people this is a trip of nostalgia, others it's their way to disconnect. And for a few this might be the first time they've been here. We're going to a bookshop and we're being taken there by Sam Lilly.

Sam Drummond 00:52

Thanks for taking us to your favourite bookstore, Sam.

Sam Lily 00:55

You're very welcome.

Sam Drummond 00:56

Now we're not going to any bookstore. We are going to Ink Bookstore in Mansfield. Why Mansfield and why this bookstore?

Sam Lily 01:07

For a few reasons, my family and I went to Mansfield a lot when I was growing up. We had some family there, so we went up there a lot and spent Easters and Christmases and every other weekend up there, and subsequently my parents bought a block of land and built a beautiful home, which they now live in most of the time.

Sam Lily 01:30

And Mansfield's home to, what I'm going to say, is the world's greatest bookshop. And that's not because it's the biggest or the brightest or the most, I don't know, has the best range of books or anything.

Sam Lily 01:43

But it's just been a source of, I don't know, maybe comfort throughout my life. I've been there since as long as I can remember. It's changed hands a couple of times, but it's still got the creaky floorboards and the door and the bell that dings every time you walk in.

Sam Drummond 02:01

When you say as long as you can remember, how far back can you remember? Were you there as a very young child going in?

Sam Lily 02:10

Um, that's a really good question. I'd say primary school, probably. Yeah. Uh, like I'm in my mid thirties now. I would say I went there when I was in primary school. Yeah. What sort of.

Sam Drummond 02:25

books were you reading then?

Sam Lily 02:27

Well, it's really funny. My journey with reading has been really interesting at school. I resented it. I hated it because I was forced to read these novels, which I thought were utter rubbish. And I was forced to fit this, you know, read these certain things and take these certain things out of books and film or prose or whatever.

Sam Lily 02:49

And it wasn't until I left school that I kind of thought I'd give reading another go and I did and fell in love with it. And I can't say I'm an avid fiction reader, like I don't do fantasy or any of that, you know, that takes me to far flung places.

Sam Lily 03:05

But I do love a good novel. I do love a good true story, whether it's true crime or I'm a sucker for politics novels. And yes, every time I'd go up to Mansfield and often with cousins in tow, I'd visit the bookshop and I'd always buy something.

Sam Lily 03:24

I'd have no money, but I'd always buy something. And that was just what we did.

Sam Drummond 03:30

You've touched on something there about school and the way we're taught film or books or whatever it might be. And if it's shoved down our throat, then we grow to resent it.

Speaker 3 03:42

Yeah.

Sam Drummond 03:43

But is it something about books where you are in a particular place in your life, physical or emotional or whatever it might be, and then it's taking you somewhere else? Are we failing to do that at schools or how did you make that trip from being forced to read and resenting it to actually doing it out of your own free will?

Sam Lily 04:10

Um, I don't know. I think it was a slow, a slow thing. It wasn't just an overnight, you know, right, I want to do this. And I think the bit I really disliked about reading novels at school was I was forced to analyse something a certain way.

Sam Lily 04:26

I was forced to think about something a certain way or interpret something a certain way. Whereas, and I'm not saying I'm brilliant at interpreting things or anything, but I do love having my own view on things.

Sam Lily 04:40

I do love forming my own opinions and exploring things in my own way. Whereas at school would read, gosh, I can't even remember. I don't even want to remember what they were. But you know, this character did this, therefore it's telling us this.

Sam Lily 04:56

And I was never very good at that. Yeah, for whatever reason.

Sam Drummond 05:02

Yeah, there seems sometimes it seemed like there was a right answer.

Sam Lily 05:06

Yeah, yeah. And we were at school, we were never good at sitting in the grey. We were never good at sitting in the uncomfortable, the grey going, oh, it's this, but I can see why we think this and. And I think that's what I enjoy about about it now, being able to come to my own conclusions and thinking things through and, I guess, arguing with myself a little bit and sitting in that grey, sitting in that uncomfortable.

Sam Lily 05:33

And I think it's, you know, certainly people who grow up different is what we're really good at doing, sitting and navigating that uncomfortable.

Sam Drummond 05:41

I want to come back to that.

Sam Lily 05:42

Yep.

Sam Drummond 05:43

But overnight we've gone to Mansfield, it's less, it's colder than freezing.

Sam Lily 05:51

Nice stuff.

Sam Drummond 05:55

Tell me about the warmth of the place when you go into Ink bookstore.

Sam Lily 06:00

Yeah, so it's actually really interesting because recently, Ink Store had to actually get a new door. And, and the owner Charlotte, who's, who's just a wonderful person, she was really concerned that with this new door, I wouldn't be able to reach the handle.

Sam Lily 06:16

So I went in there once, she's like, Oh, my gosh, I have to make sure that you know, you can reach the hand handle and whatnot. I mean, I think she knew that, you know, more books are going to be sold.

Sam Lily 06:24

But and I can't say it's a physically warm place as in there's not couches or cushions or candles or an open fire or anything. But it's more how it feels warm to me, like it's wall to wall books, which I think is just the best site ever.

Sam Lily 06:44

And I know where things are, because again, half my wage goes to that shop. But I know where things are. So I walk in and I open the door and the door creaks, and then the bell goes ding ding. And then and then if you walk a couple of steps straightforward, the floorboards creak.

Sam Lily 07:02

And I was really hoping that they wouldn't fix that. Yeah, because I just think that's part of what it is. And I know, you know, the politics or current affairs book books are directly on my right. The parenting is on my left, so I skip past them.

Sam Lily 07:18

And then, you know, we hit the rom coms and often find the recipe book section quite interesting. Can't cook to save myself, but I like to pretend that I'm interested. And then yeah, and then we can swing right and we get autobiographies and whatnot.

Sam Lily 07:36

So it's kind of this multi sensorial experience, it doesn't necessarily have a smell, maybe just that papery kind of smell. Yeah. So there's not like, you know, incense burning or this overwhelming smell.

Sam Drummond 07:51

difference there in that smell of the new books. You walk into a bookstore that's stocking only new books. It's much different than the smell of a secondhand bookstore. Completely. You know, someone's been flicking through that book and they've spilt their coffee on the pages and then hung it out to dry, but it's still a bit floppy.

Sam Drummond 08:14

That's much different to that freshly cut smell.

Sam Lily 08:19

It really is, yeah.

Sam Drummond 08:21

Is that the smell that ink has?

Sam Lily 08:26

I can't say it's it's either. I can't say it's that that almost that white chemical kind of smell that you get from white pages that have never been touched. And it's not the smell that you get from damp books with dead skin cells, but it's kind of It's this this combination of, you know, wooden floorboards, kind of old shelving, people coming in and out.

Sam Lily 08:53

It's often warm in there. So it's, it's not, it's not either. I don't think it's, um, yeah, just

Sam Drummond 09:01

Now floor to ceiling bookshelves.

Sam Drummond 09:05

what happens, you're walking in, there's a really good book on the top shelf. Are you ignoring that book or are you going to ask someone to try and get it for you?

Sam Lily 09:16

Generally speaking I'd ask someone, obviously I survey the situation and I did that once in a supermarket actually. I needed for whatever reason, it was almond meal. I don't know why, I've never needed it since.

Sam Drummond 09:31

one of those recipe books. I was reading the almond meal recipe book, exactly.

Sam Lily 09:36

And I so I was in the supermarket and of course it was on all the way up the top and I asked this Man next to me. I said hi. Excuse me. Would you mind reaching me that almond meal, please? He's gone.

Sam Lily 09:48

No, I'm not doing that

Sam Drummond 09:50

The Refuser!

Sam Lily 09:51

And I thought it was joking, so I'm like, and then I'm like, oh, oh, you're actually being serious. Oh, okay. So since then, I'm kind of, it's not that I don't ask people, but I do just try and just kind of be aware of what's going on, but the people in the bookshop know me really well.

Sam Lily 10:11

And I'd say, hi, are you able to please reach X, Y, Z up the top? And never has anyone said, oh, no, I'd rather not.

Sam Drummond 10:20

There is the third option of climbing.

Sam Lily 10:22

And we are, I don't know about you, but we are the world's most brilliant finest, um,

Sam Drummond 10:28

do it in secret.

Sam Lily 10:30

And I noticed a lot of the commercial bookshops have that ladder thing that you can kind of slide across. So I have clamped it up there before. That was a bit scary actually because then I kind of had to hop down with one hand because I had the book.

Sam Lily 10:43

And then I didn't really want the book anyway. So I was like, oh, damn it.

Sam Drummond 10:47

So what you've touched on there with someone at the supermarket refusing for some reason to give you the almond meal, there's a comfort in this space of the bookstore that you go into all the time of knowing the people and knowing how things work and knowing that if you ask for something, you're going to get it.

Speaker 3 11:08

Absolutely, absolutely.

Sam Drummond 11:10

Is that why you've brought us here? Is that why that just that knowledge of you're safe rather than in the in a random supermarket and some idiot is refusing to get

Sam Lily 11:25

I just wonder whether he actually misheard what I was saying. I just wonder whether he thought I was saying, do you want some almond meal or something? I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, it is safe. And I know in that bookshop that I'm going to be safe.

Sam Lily 11:37

I know that nothing, and not that I feel this generally, but nothing can hurt me in there. Not that I feel other spaces will hurt me. And I think it's been a constant as well. Like it's always been there.

Sam Lily 11:54

It's always been, you know, kind of what you're entering. Like I know I'm entering the bookshop and I know this is here. This is here. The cookbooks are over there, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so it's kind of a known quantity.

Sam Lily 12:09

Whereas, and I think that's why it's probably one of my favourite places.

Sam Drummond 12:17

Let's go back to sitting in the grey. And I think that's, you know, that that's something with perhaps the man in the supermarket.

Sam Drummond 12:30

maybe doesn't want to do the wrong thing, maybe doesn't care at all. But it seems to me sometimes people think there's a right answer to things. And that sometimes when we push people to the right answer or make them feel like there is a right answer, they just are scared of doing the wrong thing.

Sam Drummond 12:53

Is that, how does that play out when you're out and about? Like are more people just doing the wrong thing or are more people trying not to do the wrong thing and then inadvertently, you know, ignoring you?

Sam Lily 13:13

I think a bit of both. So I think generally speaking, people are trying to do the right thing. Generally speaking, people, I believe are good. And it's really interesting people, you know, who don't want to say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing.

Sam Lily 13:33

And it's hilarious every time I go out with, whether it's uni friends or schoolmates or whatnot, and they check for ID, the person will never check my ID, ever. And maybe you've had the same and they just don't want to go there.

Sam Lily 13:46

They just don't want to go there. And, you know, not that I went clubbing or anything, but they just, they're like, no, we're just gonna pretend this doesn't exist. Whereas people who are doing the wrong thing and know they're doing the wrong thing.

Sam Lily 14:02

So I'm not sure if you were aware recently, but there's on social media, all these groups and pages have popped up midget spotting. And it's basically, I'm gonna say generally young people who are taking photos of people like you and I, going about their lives and posting it on social media and saying horrendous things.

Sam Lily 14:23

So I found photos of myself up there in where I live in the suburb I live. So those people are not doing the right thing. And I believe that they know they're not doing the right thing. But I mean, I'm not a teenage boy, so I can't put myself in that space and combined testosterone with peer pressure and all sorts of things.

Sam Lily 14:48

I don't know. But so I think that's a combo of both.

Sam Drummond 14:53

And so you're right, I have experienced that and probably have shaped my life to an extent around that and live in a place where I have a strong community. I don't know if you do this, but I think there's this extra tension as a woman that I don't have where I like to walk back streets because I know I'm less likely to confront people who are just driving through my suburb because if they're from my suburb,

Sam Drummond 15:26

they're probably not. So you're at the end.

Sam Lily 15:30

never do that. I'd never walk back streets. Oh, I'm back.

Sam Drummond 15:32

it's all. And when I am front streets, that's when the P -Plater will do, like, take a photo out his window and go, and it's always that noise. And maybe the country towns have have similar a similar experience and somewhere like Mansfield, if everyone knows you, then they're not taking that photo, is it?

Sam Lily 16:04

possibly, possibly. And I certainly know in Mansfield when it's tourist time. I mean, it is a tourist town and it thrives on its tourism. But I can tell when, you know, bogans come and because the staring increases, the laughing, the pointing, the photos, all of that.

Sam Lily 16:22

So I can kind of tell what time of year it is based on my experience walking down the main street. But outside tourist time. Yeah, it's beautiful. It's, it's wonderful. And everyone's just like, Oh, yeah, hi.

Sam Lily 16:36

Yeah. And, you know, and that's just what I want. I'm just a bit like you. I just am. And I'm just a member of your community. Yeah. Yeah.

Sam Drummond 16:47

the anonymity that you seek.

Sam Lily 16:51

And it's funny, like occasionally, you know, people seek to stand out for all different reasons, for all different ways sometimes. But oh, I'd give my left kidney to just blend in sometimes and just, you know, and I don't quite know what that privilege would feel like.

Sam Lily 17:10

But it'd be really, I don't know, it'd be interesting just to blend in occasionally. But you know, you know.

Sam Drummond 17:17

So what happens at Ink Bookstore near the kids section?

Speaker 4 17:22

Bye!

Sam Lily 17:22

Um...

Sam Drummond 17:23

They're often kids in the store.

Sam Lily 17:26

Sometimes. Sometimes. And I think I always love kids book, like my dream in life is to write a kids book about difference. But and I love to see kids, you know, grapple with books because a lot of them now are really cool.

Sam Lily 17:40

Like I wish I had them when I was growing up.

Sam Drummond 17:43

There are some ordinary books about diversity though. Is there? Oh yeah. Okay. You don't get an A plus just for doing a book about diversity. Oh, got that.

Sam Lily 17:52

I've got no, especially when it's clunky and it's, um, yeah, yeah. I, I can, I mean, I haven't read any or many, but I could imagine there'd be some pretty average ones out there. Oh, I'm deep.

Sam Drummond 18:03

in this world.

Sam Lily 18:06

deep in four -year -old literature. So yeah, there is often, there is a kid's section. I mean, it's not huge, but, and there are often children in the section. And kids do often see me as, you know, as kids of, you know, look at the world around them.

Sam Lily 18:24

And it's funny, one of two things kind of happened. One, the kid will be like, oh my God, mom, mom, mom, look. And the mom's going, shut up, stop it, just, oh my God. And then vanish, like puff of smoke gone.

Sam Lily 18:41

Or the kid had just kind of try and work out what's going on. And it's funny, cause I'd love to get inside their brain and just see all the cogs turning. Cause they're going, hmm, you're my height. You're clearly an adult.

Sam Lily 18:56

I don't understand. And I think, so for the former, I would really encourage, and again, I'm not a parent. So tell parents that a parent, but I'd really encourage parents to actually say, you know, why is that small blah, blah, blah?

Sam Lily 19:13

Say, I don't know, but why don't we talk about it sometime? Sit in the uncomfortable with your child. I'm uncomfortable. So why shouldn't you be uncomfortable? And I think there, again, I'm not a parent.

Sam Lily 19:28

So I'm not going to tell you how to do these conversations. But I just think this is a really brilliant opportunity to explain to young people that a difference is part of this beautiful world that we live in.

Sam Lily 19:40

And whether they like it or not, they're going to come across people who are different shapes, sizes, colors, genders, you name it. So let's make this part of our dinner table conversations. And in the ink bookshop, my cousin wrote this beautiful, essay a number of years ago now about this girl who saw me in the bookshop.

Sam Lily 20:07

And it's funny, I actually remember this and she just, you know, when people stare and they just lose everything, like their body literally turns to mush and they can't even blink. And yeah, so that happened to this girl and I was, you know, kind of going, my cousin's getting, you know, as my cousins are, they're the most beautiful, protective, amazing people.

Sam Lily 20:28

I know that, you know, my cousin at the time was getting a bit like, oh, you know, I want to protect you, but I don't know how to do this. And oh my goodness, she was uncomfortable. I was probably a bit uncomfortable too.

Sam Lily 20:39

And I remember I went up to this girl and said, oh, I remember I read that book at your age and I really liked it. And I don't know why I did that. Like it's not something I would normally do. And then she like, oh, okay, cool.

Sam Lily 20:52

And then she left like, bye. Yeah, so it wasn't, I wasn't this scary monster. I was just in a bookshop like she was, but I don't think I would have been able to do that if I was in a supermarket or if I was in a pub or, you know.

Sam Lily 21:09

So I think it was something about the comfort of that space and the, like I knew what that space was and I knew the boundaries and I knew its limits and I knew, and we're in there for the books. So I comment on books.

Sam Lily 21:23

It's kind of, we're all in there for the same thing. You know what I mean? Yeah, so yes, there is a kids section. Yes, there are often children in there, so there should be. And yeah, but a lot of the kids who I assume have seen me a million times, I don't care.

Sam Lily 21:44

Yeah.

Sam Drummond 21:45

a connection between that initial reaction, that parent shunning the child and essentially admonishing them, telling them off for doing something they're naturally able to do to question. Is there a connection between that reaction there and the person posting on Facebook?

Sam Lily 22:07

Um, I don't know. I don't know. Uh, I think there's possibly there's a connection because I think if you live in, if you don't live in a world or in, in your life, if there is a lack of, um, as I was going to say, social curiosity and awareness for just this world around us, then you're going to stumble across things and people who are different and not again, I don't want to blame parents because I believe parents are just doing the best they can.

Sam Lily 22:45

Um, but possibly I think there's a reaction. There's a, sorry, a relationship there. Um, but I think they're two very different stages wanting to do very different things. So one is a young person being naturally curious, naturally asking questions, which they should in language that to us is probably clunky, but to them is probably the best that they have.

Sam Lily 23:09

Um, and not meaning any harm. So of course kids are going to say, why is that person different? I'd almost be worried if they didn't.

Sam Drummond 23:17

You've sort of come there to almost a comfortableness with that, but this is going to happen.

Speaker 3 23:28

Yeah. Yeah.

Sam Drummond 23:30

and it's how different people approach it. Absolutely.

Sam Lily 23:34

Absolutely. And part of me, on a good day, part of me often thinks, you know, I hear the camera click of an iPhone when someone's taking a photo of me. And part of me thinks, and this is when I'm feeling really good about the world.

Sam Lily 23:50

Okay, so, and it's often a male, and it's often a young teenager. Not always, but often. And so I think, okay, let's fast forward a few days. They've born getting the almond meal or whatever it is. And I just hope that one of their mates goes, why are you showing me this?

Sam Lily 24:12

I'm confused why this is funny. She's at the supermarket. I'm actually not sure why. Okay, she's I. So what? Dude, what are you doing? But maybe I'm expecting a little too much. Yeah, I don't know. But then from what I've seen, certainly in the last week online, I'm like, yeah, that probably doesn't happen.

Sam Lily 24:38

So when you

Sam Drummond 24:38

walked through the bookshop at first, you were talking about the cooking books, you might be going into the memoirs and the non -fiction. You haven't gone into the fantasy. And that strikes me as important.

Sam Drummond 25:02

I think a lot of those fantasy books use this concept of dwarf as something magical or something other or something different. Did you ever dabble in fantasy? Have you rejected that or you just don't want to touch it?

Sam Lily 25:21

I just don't like it. I just don't like something that's not potentially real. Whether it's fairies or whether it's, I don't know, dragons or whatnot. But it's interesting, the word dwarf, it's medically correct, it's, I don't know, politically correct, I guess, has never sat comfortably with me, ever, ever, ever.

Sam Lily 25:38

And that's my thing that I need to probably work on. But yeah, and I can't say I've actually made that connection often that dwarves are, do feature a lot in fantasy, because I've just never read fantasy.

Sam Lily 25:54

But yeah, I guess that does feed that notion of, you know, subhuman or other, or not considered equal to humans. Yeah. Yeah, which may feed why I don't read it. I'm not sure, but I just don't like reading things about stardust and pixies and stuff.

Sam Lily 26:14

Like, it just doesn't do me.

Sam Drummond 26:19

So what does, what are the things that you've picked up there and it's just changed your life.

Sam Lily 26:27

Oh, goodness. Anything about. This is going to sound really silly, but anything about injustice, and anything about people who are or have overcome, I don't like saying overcoming adversity, because that's a really throwaway line.

Sam Lily 26:48

But so I like reading things about things that have really happened. When it's often you know, the person taking on the big Goliath. I like reading political novels, because I'm just weird like that.

Sam Lily 27:02

And I think ignoring politics is actually a privilege for some people, whereas I'm engaged because the, you know, political is personal for me. Yeah. I love reading a nice memoir or an autobiography.

Sam Lily 27:20

Again, not Bill Gates or anyone like that. But yeah, someone who's done some cool things, who's normal people, like, there was one with Gina Reinhart the other day, I walked past it. But there was, you know, this one called Broken by Sam Drummond.

Sam Lily 27:37

I thought I'd grab it. That's nice. Confession, it's still on my to be read pile. But um,

Sam Drummond 27:46

Can I just make a note of that? Yeah. And I haven't talked about this book on this podcast yet, but it came out at the same time as Prince Harry's. So there was Spare and Broken. Yeah. I love it. I love it.

Sam Drummond 28:01

And it was so frustrating watching Prince Harry's book. Just people are fascinated by this royal feeling.

Sam Lily 28:14

for such different reasons. Oh yeah.

Sam Drummond 28:16

And you'd see it at the airport lounges, and they'd be next to each other, and nice friends would be putting Harry's book sideways, and then my book facing out. Yeah, yeah. But I suppose that's kind of a cool thing.

Sam Lily 28:32

to reflect on well when my you know when Harry you know spare came out yeah oh and mine um that's right I shouldn't know that there you go I haven't read Prince Harry's book but um yeah

Sam Drummond 28:46

It's just this insight into how our minds think. And quite often people just want that drama of the, this wealthy. White dudes, who's, yeah. That's been going on for centuries. And maybe there's a reason for that, but just an insight into how a lot of people.

Sam Lily 29:08

So yeah, I didn't know that. Yeah.

Sam Drummond 29:10

And also, I think the independence of this bookstore strikes me as well. There are big book changes. The book industry is being changed by some of the larger retailers who are undercutting the independent bookstores.

Sam Drummond 29:28

So you can go out and buy a book for half the price that you would be able to at the bookstore. Yep. Why are you going in and spending a fair chunk of your income when you could walk into a big chain and buy twice as many books?

Sam Lily 29:47

Yeah, that's a good point because you're right, like I could go to Big W or go somewhere and get it for a third of the price. I think I really believe in community and I really believe in people who are doing the right thing by people.

Sam Lily 30:05

So not ripping anyone off, not undercutting, underselling, undervaluing people's work. Yeah, I would think that's why. I mean, that's not the reason why I go to Ink bookstore, but that reinforces the reason why it is one of my favourite places, if that makes sense.

Sam Lily 30:27

Yeah. Yeah.

Sam Drummond 30:28

I'm picturing you walking into Big W and there are fluorescent lights everywhere, and the ceiling... Spare, spare, spare. That's right. Just endless copies of spare.

Sam Lily 30:42

heavily discounted.

Sam Drummond 30:43

And people being paid, you know, teenagers being paid minimum wage. And then you're walking into ink and that's a different world.

Sam Lily 30:53

Absolutely, absolutely. And I saw your book and I think that's all spare, but I think they're still trying to get rid of spare. But and what I really loved about ink as well, which quite controversially, but they actually have a bit of a social conscience.

Sam Lily 31:09

So they took a position on the voice, they took a very, a yes position on the voice, and therefore displayed lots of literature for people to understand more about it. And some book retailers did that.

Sam Lily 31:26

Some didn't. But that was one reason I was like, yeah, okay, okay, this, it's that, I don't know that social social justice, I guess I can call it. Yeah.

Sam Drummond 31:39

And so maybe that's what that bigger industry is missing, is that you've talked about how it's a privilege to not be political, that you are essentially a political being and you have to be.

Sam Lily 31:56

I think we all have to be.

Sam Drummond 31:58

But ink doesn't. Ink could just be sitting there selling books like black books, throwing books out the window and smoking in there. But they're not. They're saying we are going to have a positive influence here.

Sam Lily 32:16

Yep, yep. And what was really interesting again back to the voice and I'm not meaning to make this political all but they sit in a country town that voted heavily no. Yeah, heavily no. So there was a risk in doing that.

Sam Lily 32:32

And I love people and organizations to a degree who were able to go against what is popular to do and to say what is right. Um, yeah.

Sam Drummond 32:45

And then that goes back to that point.

Sam Drummond 32:49

where there's a person out the out their car taking a photo of you showing their mate and their mate is saying why are you showing me this and it's not the popular thing to say yeah but it's what's right

Sam Lily 33:06

And like, and again, being a teenager is hard stuff. So it's hard to do that. And I've never been a testosterone fuel teenage boy. But I could imagine that that would be a really gutsy thing to do. And you'd be really, oh, come on.

Sam Lily 33:26

I could just imagine that. But I hope one day that there's a young man out there who has shown a photo of me, it's actually a photo of me walking to the pool. I don't know what's exciting about that.

Sam Lily 33:36

But currently it is. And I wasn't looking particularly flash. So anyway, and I hope, I hope to God someone's mate goes, I don't know why you're showing me like she's walking to the pool, fine. Yeah, don't, don't do that.

Sam Lily 33:52

You know, but maybe I'm expecting a bit much too soon of, of a bunch of people who are navigating life in adolescence. I don't know.

Sam Drummond 34:06

So I can see you in 30 years, your parents age, living in Mansfield, going into Ink Bookstore. You've possibly taken over Ink Bookstore.

Sam Lily 34:18

I really like the little old book lady.

Sam Drummond 34:20

How is the bookstore changing Mansfield and the world in 30 years?

Sam Lily 34:26

in 30 years, gosh. Okay, so what it's doing in 30 years time, well, I've got this dream that I'm going to work at the UN, right? So when I come back from Geneva, yeah, so this bookshop is going to, and I'd need to research this a bit more, but do something for those young people who, and I don't want to do anything for this group, for the people who, you know, take photos of me and whatnot, but I do think they need to be hooked into the conversation somehow.

Sam Lily 35:02

I don't know, I don't have the answer. I think someone paid way more than me probably would be able to navigate that. But I think if we show people the power of stories, share stories, and also teach people to tell stories, like I think there's such an art to being able to tell a coherent, logical story.

Sam Lily 35:27

I mean, I've been on interview panels and a lot of them I've finished and just kind of gone, oh, if only you could tell a story. Like what you're telling me was great, but it was all over the shop. So I would love to, if I was, you know, have taken over the bookshop, which look, I don't think I ever will, but let's, you know, let's dream for a minute.

Sam Lily 35:51

It would be about encouraging storytelling. I'd put an open fire in there. There's something about open fires that really gets me excited.

Sam Drummond 35:59

There's also something about open fires and books. Exactly, exactly. You've just got to keep them away

Sam Lily 36:04

I could possibly go wrong. And yeah, I just try and engage the community as much as I can. Having said that, the person who owns it now does that really well. There's lots of book events, there's lots of community connections and probably more than I'm aware of.

Sam Lily 36:25

So yeah, that's what I would do. So I wouldn't change a whole heap.

Sam Drummond 36:29

Sam Lillie, future UN Secretary General.

Sam Lily 36:33

I feel pretty gentle now, right?

Sam Drummond 36:36

I can't wait to read your children's book when it comes out and don't hold your breath so and your memoir which which is to come after that.

Sam Lily 36:46

What book will that be next to? Yours is next to Spear, mine will be next to...

Sam Drummond 36:50

Whichever Prince is, I don't know. Oh, gosh. Thanks very much for taking us to your favorite place.

Sam Lily 36:59

Thank you for coming along with me.

Sam Drummond 37:03

Spaces was recorded on Wurundri, Jara and Bunurong land. Spaces was produced by Humdinger for powered media. The series was created by Sam Drummond with support from Emma Sharp and Lucy Griffin at Humdinger.

Sam Drummond 37:17

Field audio recording by Matthew Hoffman. Editing by Simon McCulloch.