Paid work and tertiary education

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Anna-Marie (0:12 - 0:51)

Hello, welcome to SpineCare's 40 Voices for 40 Years podcast series, a podcast about childhood acquired spinal cord injury and dysfunction, produced by 2SER Radio on behalf of SpineCare Foundation. We'll have families join us to swap tips and share their experiences on plenty of topics, so lots of big topics, but also the everyday things. I'm the executive producer for this podcast series, Anna-Marie Reyes, at the Community Radio Station 2SER, 107.3 FM. This podcast is about paid work and tertiary education.

Greg (0:52 - 1:42)

Oh, look, I think I've just been a big advocate of that sort of following your bliss and trying to find something that interests you and that's sustainable. And like, when I was back at school, some of my friends were lucky that they, like a friend of mine knew he always wanted to be a doctor and that was his path, and he did everything to get there. The rest of us really had no idea what we were doing or where we were going. So it's always been a bit of a journey of discovering and you start with one thing and then that might lead to something else or open another door. 

But I think that in Australia, we're quite lucky. There's lots of resources around to support people. And yeah, I think just try and find something that interests you or motivates you. And then it's much easier than trying to do something that you're just doing because you feel you have to do that.

Anna-Marie (1:46 - 2:56)

And you just heard Greg Moran there, multi-award winning writer, director, producer and comedian with lived experience of spinal cord injury since the age of 15. 

But before that, you'll hear from Skye Pelthorpe, a dedicated vocational consultant and occupational therapist with the Invox service at Royal Rehab in Sydney, a service which provides early intervention vocational rehab for patients of the spinal injury units across Sydney. She has decades of experience in neuro-rehabilitation and specializes in supporting individuals with spinal cord injury and traumatic brain injury. Her expertise lies in helping clients discover meaningful work and study opportunities as well as facilitating their return to previous vocations after injuries. First, let's deal with a common misperception that having a spinal cord injury means computer work or desk type job. 

What's more helpful starting point when a young person is considering future study and work?

Skye (2:57 - 4:04)

I guess after sustaining a severe injury like a spinal cord injury and having a significant change in your function, which might impact how you mobilise and get around, becoming a wheelchair user, maybe having restrictions in your upper limb function. Often there is this misconception that a person with a spinal cord injury is then going to be very restricted in the type of work they can do. I know this is not true as I've seen people go on and work in a range of jobs and industries which are not just desk-based. This notion is self-limiting, which I would encourage young people with spinal cord injury to consider it's possible to work in a range of settings and in work that is meaningful and enjoyable. 

The job that you go on and do in the future might not even exist now, so be open to opportunities. Do start off by trying to understand what interests you, find your passion and what intrinsically motivates you and explore what roles exist in this area. There are so many factors in our lives that shape and influence our career choice, and having a spinal cord injury is just one of those factors.

Anna-Marie (4:04 - 4:17)

You described the contemporary careers parts of all people as "squiggly". What do you mean by this and how can we understand this to be helpful for young people considering their futures?

Skye (4:19 - 6:19)

A "squiggly" career, I think the term has actually been coined by two career development consultants, Sarah Ellison and Helen Tupper. It essentially means that career ladders and jobs for life are a thing of the past and nowadays we are all moving frequently between jobs, industries and careers. So even if you've had an idea about what you want to do when you leave school, this will often change regardless of injury or disability in the mix. It's unusual to have a stepwise career path or something linear. So this message is also given in career development at school, not to be limited to really long, long-term career goals, not to feel that we need to stick with that one career for life because that's not what happens now. We don't think about where am I going to be in five years' time.

Our service that I work for, we use the chaos theory of careers as a career development approach to support our clients in navigating a new career pathway. I won't go into too much detail about it, but... its main three themes are about change, chance and complexity. So it means that people in the world are continually changing. Influences on our career paths are complex. Parents, brothers and sisters, role models, where you were brought up, where they're available in the labour market, they can all influence your career and chance events will happen, which will impact on your careers. Now, that doesn't mean we sit back and let the world wash over us because the world is uncertain.

There are things we can do to increase the chances of the right thing happening, such as networking, be open to exploring other opportunities, be flexible, having an interest and a passion is really important. And it's probably more meaningful to you than necessarily having a rigid plan or the desire for a fancy job title or pay increase because these can be self-limiting.

Skye (6:19 - 6:31)

So what supports are available to assist a young person with SCI to explore career options or spinal cord injury there to explore career options?

Skye (6:33 - 10:48)

The NDIS can fund a range of employment related supports to help you develop a pathway to work, moving from school to work, getting a job, thinking about self-employment, keeping a job or changing jobs. This might look like funding a vocational counsellor to work with you to discover what sort of work matches your skills and interests and abilities, looking at study pathway, visiting workplaces, setting up work experience, exploring scholarships, linking you in with other peers who are working in a similar field. You might need... an OT assessment to explore the assistive technology you need to operate a computer.

The school leaver employment support program is also NDIS funded, and this is available in the final year of school and directly after leaving school for, I think it's up to two years. That aims to give the confidence and skills to move from school to employment. Job Access is another funder, that's the National Hub for Workplace and Employment Information for people with disability, employers and service providers. And we often use the Employment Assistance Fund through Job Access, which pays for buying equipment and modifications to a workplace. 

Anna-Marie

What about workplace learning? How does that work?

Skye

Participating in work experience or work trials can really help you get an idea of what the role involves and the environment. They might discover you don't like a job or an industry at all. Being linked with a mentor in a chosen field can be helpful to give you an understanding of how to craft your resume or handle an interview and meet the expectations of a job. Also being linked in with a peer, so someone with lived experience of a spinal cord injury working in a similar field can also be helpful. 

Anna-Marie

You mentioned about using a trained independent person as well. 

Skye

A trained independent person, somebody who has that experience working in that role, who can share some of their lived experience of the industry and the role.

Anna-Marie

And what about support for tertiary study? 

Skye

TAFE and universities have their equivalent disability support services, which offer a range of supports to students with disability. Even if you don't think you need any support, it is recommended to link in with the disability support service because you might be eligible for fee exemptions to some courses, and it's best to make contact with them first before you enrol. Sometimes you may not know exactly what you need until you get into the course. 

Some of the supports that they offer might include extra time to do exams and assessment tasks, having a scribe in class, alternative ways of recording information, assistance to access ergonomic equipment and assistive technology, modifications if you're a wheelchair user, so if you need ramped access, access to the bathrooms or even parking considerations. You may also want to consider tracking down a peer at the same educational institution if possible. 

Anna-Marie

What are some of the common challenges that people face when securing work? 

Skye

I guess finding work takes time. So what I would suggest is you need to be patient. You may not get work straight away. It can be really hard applying for jobs for everyone where you throw out your CV and if you're not getting much back. I would encourage everyone to pick up the phone and ask for feedback on your application or your interview performance approach. Having setbacks as they can be opportunities to learn. Be persistent and actively network, ask people for opportunities, reach out to family and friends, be open minded as you can. You may not find the exact or ideal type of work initially. You may only be offered a small role initially, but consider this opportunity may grow into something more in time and get support. It can be hard to self-advocate all the time.

Anna-Marie (10:49 - 11:05)

It's quite common for young people to be a little bit unsure when to disclose details about their disability and associated needs. What advice can you offer for how much to disclose and when and if indeed one has to disclose at all?

Skye (11:06 - 12:24)

Yeah, good question. I guess the nature of disability is deeply personal, and people with disability are diverse. If you're applying for a job and your disability means that you're unable to carry out the inherent requirements of the job without reasonable adjustments being made to accommodate your disability, then you should tell your employer. That said, everyone needs to feel part of a safe and trusted workplace. You may be considering the timing of disclosure when putting together your CV or cover letter or leaving it to the interview or job offer. I've heard feedback from clients that they are concerned of being unfairly discriminated against.

It is a personal decision. It can be helpful if you are being offered a face-to-face interview to ask questions to ensure you can access the interview room, bathroom, building, etc., and avoid any challenging situations of not being able to get into the building if it's not wheelchair accessible. Considerations can be about how you communicate details around your disability. It's good to understand the requirements of the job first. If you need any assistive technology to complete your job, then that's something that's probably helpful for the employer to know so that they can make sure that you've got access to the necessary equipment.

Anna-Marie (12:26 - 12:38)

Now, why is meaningful vocation so important in the lives of young people with spinal cord injury? And what key messages do you hope young people remember from this conversation?

Skye (12:38 - 14:15)

Being involved in education and... work is part of your recovery. So even if your injury was many years ago, vocation is part of who you are, part of your identity. It's not always about your disability. When you go to a party and meet new people, one of the first questions people ask you are, What do you do? It is well-evidenced that employment after spinal cord injury is associated with improved quality of life, physical and mental health, and offers greater opportunities for social integration. Setting early positive expectations regarding resumption of work following spinal cord injury is an important indicator of vocational outcome.

And I guess this is an important message for parents to also consider. I'd like to leave the listeners with a message of hope, and share with you the guiding principles of our service... the key messages we share with our clients early on post injury. So they are that return to work is possible after a spinal cord injury. You can return to work... that is meaningful and enjoyable. Work can be part of your recovery. And people who return to work after spinal cord injury report a better quality of life and general health. You may have many transferable skills if you need to change jobs. And it's never too early and never too late to think about work.

And it takes time and persistence. Be open to opportunities, put yourself out there, believe you can do something and be successful because you never know what job exists for you.

Anna-Marie (14:15 - 14:23)

Any research at all that supports the importance of vocations and passions for people with spinal cord injuries?

Skye (14:24 - 15:46)

There's so much diversity for everyone. There's so many factors that influence work and your success in work. And so what we do in our service is we provide early intervention, vocational rehab. So a lot of the research we look at are around the timing of vocational rehab. So not to leave it too late... because our service, we provide intervention to meet somebody where they are in terms of their readiness. So we look at how ready somebody is to start considering returning to work, or safe.

But for some people early on post injury, they may want to be focusing on physical recovery and adjusting to their injury and might not be ready to explore work and study. But that's not the case for a lot of people because work and study might be a very significant thing for them and that to leave that to when they're discharged into the community can often be a little bit too late or you've just missed an opportunity there. So it is never too late, but you don't want to... miss an opportunity to be able to demonstrate to people what's possible and to give hope that work and study is possible post injury.

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Anna-Marie (15:49 - 16:23)

And you just heard from Skye Pelthorp, a dedicated vocational consultant and occupational therapist with the NVOC service at Royal Rehab in Sydney, a service which provides early intervention, vocational rehab for patients of the spinal injury units across Sydney. 

Continuing the conversation on paid work and tertiary education, now over to Greg Moran. Greg has lived experience of spinal cord injury since the age of 15. He's a multi-award winning writer, director, producer and comedian.

Greg (16:25 - 17:23)

I broke my neck in 1983 when I was 15 and then... so I was still at school then in year 10. So I went back and finished year 12 and then I went on and did a BA at Sydney University where I was mainly doing fine arts, history and English. I started painting a little bit in school with a brush in my mouth, that one of the art teachers suggested it to me. And so when I finished uni, I wanted to do a bit more sort of short story writing and filmmaking and that sort of got me into short filmmaking... but also a friend suggested the mouth and foot painting artists to self help. They make their money through selling greeting cards and things like that.

So I had to submit five or six paintings to them and then I eventually got a job with them. It's like a sort of scholarship thing where they give you a monthly stipend. And then I use that to get further lessons and just improve my painting.

Anna-Marie (17:23 - 17:40)

You did quite a bit when you started out and then you tried a few things before you fell into things that you really want to do. So do you want to talk a little bit about what happened after working for mouth and foot painting artists?

Greg (17:41 - 18:20)

So I was painting with them for a few years and then actually my father was a pathologist and he eventually was running a winery. When I got in first engaged, I moved down there with my partner and we were running a winery down in Murrumbatga for about five years. And while I was there, I went back to uni and did a degree in oenology and viticulture, in wine management. And that was by correspondence, so you would be studying at home and then you would then go down for these practicals for about a couple of weeks during the semester a few times. And that was a chance through uni at Wagga.

Anna-Marie (18:20 - 18:33)

Can you pinpoint key catalysts that spurred you in the direction of the study and work choices like the preparation and then what were the challenges as well?

Greg (18:34 - 20:15)

I was really just following what I was interested in because I did a BA at uni, but I mainly went there because I wanted to do more fine arts. But there wasn't a lot of practical components, it was more art history. So I suppose that's what led me into the mouth and foot painting artists, was just because I was interested and enjoyed the painting side of things. And I thought it was an easy sort of job in that you can work from home and quite flexible. Yeah, with the winery thing, I'd always been interested in wine and stuff. And the good thing about doing that had been that I got to balance out my education a bit more too, because my arts degree was very arts based.

But then with the winery stuff, I got to do more physics and chemistry and all that sort of thing. When I first started painting, there wasn't a lot of accessible places to get lessons or do anything. The good thing is once I started to get some money from the mouth and foot painting artists, I then used that - because I wanted to go to Julian Ashton Art School, which was down at the Rocks in Sydney, but it was upstairs and not accessible. So I rang up and was talking to one of the students there and then he was able to, he said he'd be happy to come and give me lessons at home. 

So then he would come over a couple of times a week and I'd get models in and do life drawing and all that sort of thing, because I found that I also did a diploma in colour and design, which was great, but it didn't, it was good to know more about colour, but didn't help the painting more. And I realised to be a good artist, you really need to know how to draw well first. So... that's why I was getting more drawing lessons.

Anna-Marie (20:16 - 20:22)

So what were the supports available for tertiary study? And do you feel that you've always needed them?

Greg (20:22 - 21:13)

I think in the early days, back in the 80s and 90s, there wasn't as much support as there is now with the NDIS and things like that out. I think sometimes support's a double edged sword in that... it's good to try and do things as much as you can yourself first, because you often find solutions that you didn't know were there. I'm a bit slow in the uptake on some things, so sometimes there's support there that I don't realise is there until later on. For instance, now that I'm at AFTRS, they've got heaps of support and they run things through you at the beginning and give you lots of options and ways to do things. We didn't have the internet or anything like that, which is obviously very handy for resources and looking, researching things and all the many things you can do on the internet.

Anna-Marie (21:13 - 21:18)

You were talking a little bit about at times you fell asleep in lectures...

Greg (21:18 - 21:53)

I suppose, yeah, the challenges of uni would be I never really, I couldn't take notes due to my disability and it wasn't easy. I think I might have occasionally recorded things, but I used to find that I never really had the time to listen to the recordings again anyway, because it would take a big chunk of your time. And... yeah, I think that was probably one of the harder things was even if I was interested, you'd just be tired and then sometimes you'd fall asleep and wake up at the end and think, Oh, that would have been a good lecture, but I missed it. But I suppose I just had to do a, just read more outside of lectures and that sort of stuff.

Anna-Marie (21:53 - 22:03)

Can you give us some tips about the strategies that worked for you for accessing the campus and then also managing like voluminous information like that?

Greg (22:03 - 23:03)

Sometimes I think I've got a bit of a head like a sieve for information. I find there's always support around if you need it and ask, even in the sense of getting notes off other students or things like that. When I went to uni, I just went by myself, didn't have a carer with me or anything like that. But I find there's always plenty of people who are willing and able to help if you ask. And the uni was, Sydney Uni is quite an old uni and so their access wasn't great, but they would tend to adjust it as students' needs arose. So they could do things like, they could practically move lectures to down to the ground floor perhaps or something like that if it was normally upstairs.

And then also they did build a couple of ramps and different things for me when I was at uni to make buildings accessible. Sometimes the ramps took a while to get built, but it was still, it was, so I think obviously today it's probably a lot more accessible than it was back in the 80s and 90s.

Anna-Marie (23:03 - 23:21)

So in regards to employment work, you described the relationship between employer and employee as symbiotic. Can you share with us how that has worked for you in terms of your daily needs and then also the employers playing their part?

Greg (23:23 - 23:55)

I've found anyone I've worked for with a very accommodating and try and make things work. I suppose it's just about having the discussion and seeing what your needs are and then adjusting things accordingly. I think if they're giving you the job, then they understand that you come with certain restrictions that you have to adjust around. But yeah, in my experience in the workforce, it's tended to be very symbiotic in the sense that, yeah, they're willing to give ground and assist as much as they can.

Anna-Marie (23:56 - 24:13)

You were consultant producer for 130 episodes of kids quiz show, Spit It Out. Now, can you please spit out any other pearls of wisdom for young people and their parents considering future options for work and study?

Greg (24:15 - 25:07)

I wish I had some pearls of wisdom. I think I've just been a big advocate of that sort of following your bliss and trying to find something that interests you and that's sustainable. And like, when I was back at school, some of my friends were lucky in that they, like a friend of mine knew he always wanted to be a doctor and that was his path and he did everything to get there. The rest of us really had no idea what we were doing or where we're going. So it's always been a bit of a journey of discovery and you start with one thing and that might lead to something else or open another door. 

But I think that in Australia, we're quite lucky. There's lots of resources around to support people and I think just try and find something that interests you or motivates you and then it's much easier than trying to do something that you're just doing because you feel you have to do that or you have to be employed.

Greg (25:08 - 25:19)

It was important also that in your sharing, you talked about finding your strength and dwelling on that and making the most of that. What are your strengths, Greg?

Greg (25:19 - 26:09)

My strengths, I think I'm reasonably resilient. I think flexible and easygoing helps as well when you're working in any environment. Obviously, I think I've got pretty good people skills. I think that helps a lot when you're working with other people to good relationships in that way. So I suppose, I don't know, determination and good communication have always been very helpful. It's like the unknown is always challenging. If you don't know, someone's in a wheelchair and you know nothing about them, then that's scary for any of us - not scary, but it's like it can be challenging to have conversations with people if you don't understand their given circumstances. 

But I just think people, the more we get to know each other and understand each other's issues and backgrounds and all that sort of stuff, then it can only be helpful.

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Anna-Marie (26:12 - 27:34)

And you just heard from our guest, Skye Palthorpe, who is a dedicated vocational consultant and occupational therapist with the InVOC service at Royal Rehab in Sydney, a service which provides early intervention vocational rehab for patients of the spinal injury units across Sydney. Also, Greg Moran, who has lived experience of spinal cord injury since the age of 15. He's a multi-award-winning writer, director, producer, and comedian, and ending that episode on pain work and tertiary education. You can find out more about their work and expertise in our episode show notes online. 

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You've been listening to SpineCare's 40 Voices for 40 Years, produced by Radio 2SERFM. You can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. This series is recorded in Sydney. We acknowledge the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation as the traditional owners and ongoing custodians of the land where we record this podcast. We extend our respect to the traditional owners of the lands that you and our guests join us from. I'm executive producer Anna-Marie Reyes, and see you in the next podcast.

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