A Star is Born - love, trauma and addiction in the journey of fame

October 4

Stephanie Fornasier 0:00

I'd like to start today by acknowledging the traditional owners of the land on which I'm on today, which is the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation, and pay respects to elder's past, present and future and acknowledge that I am on stolen land. And I would like to warmly welcome to the podcast, a man who needs no introduction, Alex state, I'm going to fangirl a little bit now, one of my favourite podcast hosts from one of my favourite podcasts. You are good. Welcome so much to Psychocinematic today, Alex,

Alex Steed 0:32

thank you so much for having me. It's really, really a pleasure to be here and an honour to be asked. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

Stephanie Fornasier 0:38

Oh, it's an honour to have you asked to be on the podcast. I know all about you, which is weird. But you do would you like to introduce a little bit about yourself and your background?

Alex Steed 0:48

Sure. I so I co host a podcast with Sarah Marshall. And Sarah Marshall is the host of a show called you're wrong about we host a show called you are good, which we call a feelings podcast about movies, and they can see is in order to talk about big stuff and feelings and ideas going on in our lives. We talk about movies as a reference point to get to talk about those things. And so like, for example, we recently just recorded an episode on Gremlins 2. And that's very, that was like for us an opportunity to talk about fear and what what we were looking into sort of like what we wanted to be scared of when we were children and what worked and why that was, et cetera. 

We talked about this movie, A Star Is Born as an opportunity to talk about different things we've all been through. And that whole idea is that it's a lot easier to talk about movies first, as you know, that sort of talk about the subject matter head on and then professionally, I'm a business manager for creative people.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:49

Yeah, fantastic. I think I started Psychocinematic around the same time as you guys started yours. And it was like, Oh, this is like perfect podcasts. We were sort of both, you know, talking through movies and what they depict in and how we feel seen through them and how we process our own feelings through films. So yeah, it's a great melding of minds today.

Alex Steed 2:11

Yeah, totally. I'm, I love this idea. I do think it is a hard sell for many to just say, hey, let's talk about what's going on in our heads in our hearts for an hour. And it's easier if there's like a proxy point for that. So I'm glad. I'm glad we're all figuring out some way to do that. And all of my peers do something similar in this space. So there's a lot of appetite for it.

Stephanie Fornasier 2:34

Yeah, yep, definitely. And you picked A Star is Born today, which you specifically mentioned the 2018 version of it. Yeah. been remade. This is the fourth remake?

Alex Steed 2:45

I think, yes.

Stephanie Fornasier 2:47

What made you decide to pick this film today?

Alex Steed 2:50

I think when we covered it on our show, it spoke to a lot of people maybe more deeply than some of our other episodes. I think specifically because I have a lot of experience, either being in relationships that match an unhealthy codependent formation, kind of like the one that we see portrayed on on screen. And I'm also a person who and this is a thing that you see on on either side of that formation. Often, I'm also a person that has nebulously defined personality disorder stuff. So and that's something I kind of recognise in some of these characters. And I think that, you know, that's the reason why this speaks to me the most and, and we had people either feel very seen by that episode, or people feel challenged by that episode. 

So I think that this is, even though this isn't my favourite movie. It's not it's not a bad movie by any means. But it's not. It is certainly not a movie that I'm like, Hey, nothing else is going on. Let's check in on A Star is Born. It is the one that in the past handful of years, I've seen and felt a lot of resonance with it not for the reasons I think most people I think most I think a lot of people the way that this movie was sold was that it's a it's a grand romance.

Stephanie Fornasier 4:17

Yes. Yeah.

Alex Steed 4:17

And that to me is like fifth on the list of what's going on.

Stephanie Fornasier 4:24

Well, so if that's the case, then that's, that's not great.

Alex Steed 4:28

I think, you know, I think that there is a history and pop culture of elevating unhealthy relationship styles to to underscore sort of the romantic rigour of them. Yeah, maybe only recently ish are we coming to a place where we're truly just demystifying all of that?

Stephanie Fornasier 4:47

Yeah, and I did end up watching because I had never seen any of them. I ended up watching the 1954 and the 1967. And it was interesting that that sort of of toxic relationship style was there in each of those iterations and is in this like modernised version of it as well. And I think that tells you how deeply entrenched that is in film and how growing up and watching films like this, we sort of saw that as that's the ideal sort of love story where it's not very healthy, very dramatic. a lot of harm inflicted?

Alex Steed 5:27

All consuming. I think that we have a there's a there's a lot going on psychologically, culturally, for sure. Speaking sort of about the the sociological expectation, but also just, I think that there is some theoretical comfort for a lot of people in the idea of being consumed in some way by something and it has more validity because it engulfs you. You know, this. This certainly offers a perspective on that.

Stephanie Fornasier 5:59

a hundred percent

Alex Steed 6:02

And had you not seen this prior to this conversation?

Stephanie Fornasier 6:06

I did see the latest version, the 2018 version? And But uh, yeah, I didn't actually remember a lot of it. So it was it was good to rewatch, and I didn't end up seeing the very first one, the 1937 one, but I don't think I could find it anywhere.

Alex Steed 6:21

Judy garland is that Judy Garland?

Stephanie Fornasier 6:23

Judy Garland is 1954. And then

Alex Steed 6:25

Oh she's 1954, great

Stephanie Fornasier 6:26

yeah, and 1976 is Barbra Streisand,

Alex Steed 6:30

right, of course.

Stephanie Fornasier 6:30

Yeah. So 1937 have the notes here somewhere. But yeah, some other people. I might go through the plot.

Alex Steed 6:40

Sure.

Stephanie Fornasier 6:41

And feel free to jump in at any time. I've taken it mostly off Wikipedia, but with a little bit of editing down. So the story of A Star Is Born, 43 year old Jackson slash Jack Maine is a famous country rock singer privately battling and alcohol and drug addiction. He meets 31 year old Ally at a drag bar where he goes to drink when he runs out of booze, who works as a waitress and singer songwriter. Jack is amazed by her performance and they spend the night talking to each other, where Allie discusses her unsuccessful efforts in pursuing a professional music career. Allie shares with Jack some lyrics that she has been working on and they connect.While Ally can tell he is quite dependent on alcohol.

Alex Steed 7:20

Yeah, the whole time. I was like, and I've and I've been pals with people who are this far in to drink it. I've had my own struggles in this arena, but not not as far as where Jack is. And the entire time. She was meeting him for the first time. I was like, he must only smell like alcohol.

Stephanie Fornasier 7:39

Yeah, yeah

Alex Steed 7:39

Given how much he has consumed. Like, that's where he's out. Like that's, that's how much he has consumed to this point that you've seen on screen. So yeah, he's advanced in his struggle.

Stephanie Fornasier 7:50

Yeah, yeah, I have. I had that thought too. And, like, imagine how he must smell at the moment and they're having this very intimate. First meeting. Yes. And she's quite aware. Like she seems quite clear that he's drunk most of the time,

Alex Steed 8:06

because spoiler alert, she recognises this in men.

Stephanie Fornasier 8:09

Yes, exactly. So Jack invites Ali to his next show. Despite her initial refusal she attends and with Jack's encouragement sings shallow on stage with him. Jack invites Ellie to go on tour with him and they form a romantic relationship. In Arizona, Ali and Jack visit the ranch where Jack grew up and where his father is buried, only to find that Bobby his brother, played by Sam Elliott had sold the land, which was converted into a wind farm. Angered at his betrayal, Jack attacks Bobby who subsequently quit as his manager. Before doing so Bobby reveals that he did inform Jack about the sale, but Jack was too drunk to notice. 

While on tour, Ali meets Rez a record producer who offers her a contract. Although visibly bothered Jack still supports her decision. She starts to excel in the pop music sphere. Jack misses one of Ali's performance after he passes out drunk in public. He recovers at the home of his best friend George Noodles Stone played by Dave Chappelle, and his wife and daughter playing themselves as well.

Alex Steed 9:14

Oh, I didn't realise that.

Stephanie Fornasier 9:15

I'm not sure of his wife, but definitely his daughter, that's his daughter, and later makes up with Ali. There he proposes to ally with an impromptu ring made from a loop of a guitar string. And they are married that same day at a church ministered by relative noodles who very much pushes them into getting married that day.

Alex Steed 9:32

Yeah, they're like, this is like, I thought this is the first time I really thought about that scene in a bigger way. And I was like, they just found him passed out in front of their house. And they are like, Girl,

Stephanie Fornasier 9:46

marry this guy.

Alex Steed 9:48

We're on board. Maybe this'll fix it. They say he's in the beginning. Like maybe this will be your way out of yourself. But yeah, not great. Not a great suggestion.

Stephanie Fornasier 9:59

Poor Ally

Alex Steed 10:00

Yep Poor Ally for sure

Stephanie Fornasier 10:04

During Ali's performance on Saturday Night Live Bobby reconciles with Jack. Later Ali and the drunk and Jack fight over Ali's growing artistic success. Jack criticises Ali's new image and music, so success appears to be outpacing his recent decline in popularity. At the Grammy Awards, where Ellie is nominated for three awards, and visibly intoxicated Jack performs a tribute to Roy Orbison. Later in the evening, Ali wins the Best New Artist Award. When she goes up on stage to receive her award a still inebriated Jack staggers up to her where he publicly wets himself and passes out

Alex Steed 10:38

brutal it was maybe the most brutal scene and like, I've watched those, like, extreme French horror movies from the turn of this century. And, and like things that are on record, like, you know, Midsommar things that are on record as being like, upsetting. Yeah, this to me is the most upsetting scene in all of cinema.

Stephanie Fornasier 10:57

Yeah, it totally is. And watching the remakes of that the equivalent of that scene, it's just not they're not as affecting because I feel like the actors who are playing, not that they're bad actors, but they're playing up the drunkenness and it's more about oh, they're crazy, rather than this is really awful to watch.

Alex Steed 11:16

He really occupies this space. Yeah.

Stephanie Fornasier 11:21

Ali's father Lorenzo, played by Andrew Dice Clay berates a semi conscious Jack while he attempts to help Jack sober up. Jack joins a rehabilitation programme. While recovering in rehab for about two months, Jack discloses to his counsellor that he tried to Wikipedia says commit I'll say die by suicide at age 12.

Alex Steed 11:39

In a funny and like, weirdly, the nicest scene in the whole movie is him explaining his suicide attempt at 12. To his his counsellor. I think it's like, we'll talk about it more, but it's strangely the most humane scene. And

Stephanie Fornasier 11:52

Yeah this is where he sort of opens up a little bit and becomes a little bit more vulnerable.

Alex Steed 11:57

Yes. You see, it's the second time he's vulnerable outside of when he meets Ali for the first time. Yeah, it's really it's lovely that you're reminded that that's in there.

Stephanie Fornasier 12:06

Yeah, that's, I've got more to say about that later.

Alex Steed 12:10

Oh, I can't wait.

Stephanie Fornasier 12:12

He also mentioned that he has hearing problems due to progressively worsening tinnitus while returning home. Jack apologises to Ali and admits to Bobby that it was he who meet idolised and not their father. Ali asks Rez to bring jack on a European tour, but Rez refuses prompting Ali to cancel the remainder of a tour so she can care for Jack. Later Rez confronts Jack and accuses him of nearly ruining Ali's career and being an embarrassment. That evening. Ali lies to Jack and tells him that her record label has cancelled her to her so that she can focus on her second album, content warning for the next part. Jack promises that he will come to a concert that night. 

But after Ali leaves, he hangs himself in their garage, grief stricken and inconsolable after Jack's suicide. Ali is visited by Bobby who tells her that the suicide was Jack's own choice. The closing scene is Ali singing an unfinished song that Jack wrote for Ali during a tribute to Jack introducing herself for the first time as Ali Mehan. And that's the first time we hear her last name.

Alex Steed 13:11

Right. It's just Ali. This is Ali. Yeah. And so it says the billboard.

Stephanie Fornasier 13:16

Yeah, exactly. Is there anything that I might have missed in that?

Alex Steed 13:19

No, there's a dog and it doesn't have any...

Stephanie Fornasier 13:21

Oh yeah.

Alex Steed 13:22

But there's a very sweet dog. What's the dog's name? George, Jack, John, something like that. And the dog is fine. The dog escapes unscathed.

Stephanie Fornasier 13:30

Yes yes, the dog survives. That's very important.

Alex Steed 13:33

The dog survives a very tumultuous relationship. Yeah, gets a good steak out of it. Regardless of...

Stephanie Fornasier 13:38

True. That's true. Yeah. But yeah,

Alex Steed 13:41

That's no, that's great and succinct. Just you could teach our show a thing or two about plot description. *Steph laughs*

Stephanie Fornasier 13:58

We usually talk about the lived experience of the characters at this point, the actors and filmmakers. And I think it's really probably a good time to talk a bit about Bradley Cooper's involvement in the film, because he very much brought his own experiences of alcohol and drug addiction into the roll. Had you known much about Bradley Cooper's life.

Alex Steed 14:19

So our approach on the show, and I admire this approach very much, but our approach on the show is to know nothing as little as we can. So that we are focused almost exclusively on our emotional response.

Stephanie Fornasier 14:31

Yeah, yeah.

Alex Steed 14:32

That gets us into trouble sometimes, because people are like, Don't you know that this person is evil? And it's like, no, I don't. I've stopped my brain has stopped making space for any more new information,

Stephanie Fornasier 14:45

Especially evil people...

Alex Steed 14:46

I mean, there's just so many. I don't... and I'm curious. I do. I did have some sense from something someone said in passing once that, that that is part of his past and maybe he's he's in active recovery. But I don't know about his experience. I'm looking forward to hearing about it.

Stephanie Fornasier 15:06

Yeah. Yeah, I was interested because I think I had hints. I knew hints before I saw the film. But yeah, he has gone through some pretty heavy drug addiction. He was on Alias, which I didn't know because I haven't watched all of the television show. Yeah, that was like his big break. But he left the show. There's an article that says fired slash left. So I don't know the actual story. But after he left the show, he severed his Achilles tendon, and became quite depressed and suicidal from what I know that's a really painful injury.

Alex Steed 15:38

Yeah, that's horrendous.

Stephanie Fornasier 15:40

Yeah. So he ended up being quite dependent on drugs and alcohol, especially if he was in pain. That's a very common gateway into becoming dependent on opioids. But apparently it was Will Arnett that helped him sort of get out of that place.

Alex Steed 15:54

Oh.

Stephanie Fornasier 15:55

Which is interesting. And yeah, so will was the one who sort of sat him down, he came out to see him and it was late afternoon, and he still hadn't let his dogs out to go to the bathroom. And so Will Arnett was like, okay, you've got a problem. You got to do something about it. But it was Bradley Cooper, actually, his father passed away in January 2011. And he ended up sort of back on the wagon, again, to cope with that, which is completely understandable and common. But since that time, he's what brought himself out of that experience and says that he's trying to find a peace with who he is. And it's sort of evened out since then. 

So yeah, it sounds like he's got a lot of Yeah, lived experience with drug and alcohol dependence. And this came very much into the making a star was born. And I think that he did a really good job. Personally, I haven't gone through that myself. But I have loved ones that have and I think some of that seem quite real on screen.

Alex Steed 16:55

Yeah. And I there certainly positions, I think the movie takes through the characters, lines sometimes that I have issues that I take issue with, but I think his portrayal and the portrayal of someone who's addiction is in response to various ways, various experiences they've had, and and the way that their life is organised, and the way that sort of things were dealt or whatever, rather than the addiction being. You know, I think sometimes addiction can be painted as like, it's like a bad choice that somebody makes. Yeah. And it's a very, it's almost like a very sort of, like carceral carceral, adjacent tick. Yeah. 

And in this case, it really feels like the addictions that he is living with are the result of where he is in his life, not sort of like a bad choice. And that is that itself is kind of revolutionary. I'll have things to say about what Sam Elliott says at the end. But yeah, yeah, I think he did a good job.

Stephanie Fornasier 17:56

Yeah, I think so. Apparently, he became involved with the show and hadn't worked on the onscreen persona. And it wasn't even sure who Jackson was, and tried to make it like a guy with an earring to see if he was that kind of guy apparently and then it was like, Nah, it's not going to be that kind of guy. So he recalled talking to his acting teacher, Elizabeth Kemp, about using your own pain and insecurities into a role. So that's how he kind of turn that into the Jackson main character, and apparently, he actually stole like when Bobby accuses Jackson of stealing his voice, Bradley actually sold Sam Elliot's voice essentially because he modelled his voice off him.

Alex Steed 18:38

That's helpful. I was wondering too, if that's and this shows how little research we do. I was wondering how conscious of a choice that was because again, to your point, Sam Elliott does say you stole my voice. And when I first heard his voice, knowing Sam Elliott was coming when I first heard his voice this watch I was like, it's so Sam Elliot, it has to have been consciously modelled on him and I'm glad to know that because it was it's almost like eerie sometimes.

Stephanie Fornasier 19:05

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's it's quite he did a really good job of it too. And I think it reminds me of that sort of very alcoholic voice as well. You can feel the liquor dripping off his vocal cords as he told

Alex Steed 19:18

he's certainly put himself through it. He didn't need it and there's a there's a makeup team deserves a lot of attention and acclaim for what they did to make him to make him look just like a little loaded, slightly glistening and red, which is the way when someone is sort of consuming like a steady stream of alcohol ultimately looks and not like, you know, he doesn't look like a zombie. Like he doesn't looks like he's he's living with some extra, some extra stress, a lot of chemicals in his body, etc. And it's done in a very convincing way. Yeah.

Stephanie Fornasier 19:54

100% he really he really depicts the character and I it felt natural and you can kind of you can almost tell that this is not he's not putting on a character like he's felt this and he's coming at it from a natural place, I think. Yes,

Alex Steed 20:07

Yes, I agree.

Stephanie Fornasier 20:08

I think Bradley Cooper is a really good actor. I don't love some of the movies he's in but I do really love him.

Alex Steed 20:14

I love Bradley. I don't have a bad thing. You know, I think I There are sometimes criticisms of choices he makes about what to represent and where and how and I have never, you know, if I make 10 decisions 10 aren't always going to be the greatest are the right ones. And I usually go into judging other people's. So no, but I love I love Bradley Cooper. I think he's, I think that this is great. I think it's very, very well directed. I think that his portrayal is very good.

Stephanie Fornasier 20:45

100% agree. I looked into some lived experience from Lady Gaga, the lady herself, the lady herself, and I thought she was excellent in this. I think she needs to do more films. She's actually really good actress.

Alex Steed 20:58

I agree. 100% She's wonderful. And

Stephanie Fornasier 21:01

I've not been a huge fan of her music because just because I was into other stuff at the time. But she's a great musician, like voice is sensational.

Alex Steed 21:11

I went, I remember going to a party in maybe 2009 2010 I can't remember when I went to a party. And I remember the bad romance video had just come out and someone played it on a like a desktop computer like a graphic designer, desktop computer on an apple and I just cried in the middle of the party watching the music video like I've been I've been I'm not a I'm not like an active I don't listen to like I'm an old person. I don't listen to anything new actively or regularly. And it's been a long time since I've done that. But I am often moved by what is out there. And she is she's a person who I'm always sort of like moved by unimpressed by even if I'm not actively a fan.

Stephanie Fornasier 21:53

I think the first time I paid attention to it was the Telephone.

Alex Steed 21:57

Oh, the best

Stephanie Fornasier 21:57

that video, which I watched over and over

Alex Steed 22:01

I remember that. Yeah, I remember that's another one where I remember exactly where I was when I watched it. It's so it's so good and unique.

Stephanie Fornasier 22:08

It's fantastic. And you could tell that she's she's theatrical. She's she's got that sort of ability to portray different worlds and stories and things. So I think she hopefully she continues doing films. But the way she sort of has spoken about the film is how she's struggled with fame as well. And how difficult it is just suddenly shooting to stardom and travelling the world going from She said her hotel room to garage to limo to stage. And what when she was became quite famous quite quickly, too, because I remember seeing her on like this talk show called Rove live in Australia. And she did like I think it was Just Dance. And it was like right at the end of the show, which is when all the performance came on. I was like, oh, okay, and then suddenly she was everywhere. So she really did Excel quite quickly.

Alex Steed 22:59

Yeah, that's what I mean, I had never heard again, I had never heard of her before. I saw the bad romance video. And I saw that video and then I have not stopped seeing her daily since. Yeah, but 13 years later, you know what I mean? Like, she was like, watching somebody tear into the public consciousness, and just stay and you know, like, in my view, rightfully. I think that she's, yeah, incredibly interesting things and makes interesting choices. And I like her a lot.

Stephanie Fornasier 23:26

She's exciting. She makes exciting stuff.

Alex Steed 23:28

She is exciting. Yeah, for sure.

Stephanie Fornasier 23:30

So yeah, she experienced that quite quickly. And she also had some traumas in her life that she's experienced PTSD from which she says that as this sort of excel to stardom happened, she didn't really deal with the traumas that had happened. And then all of a sudden, she started to experience quite a lot of pain throughout her body, and also mental health issues. And she's actually been diagnosed with fibromyalgia. So yeah, I didn't know about that. And I know fibromyalgia can be quite debilitating. So given that she's constantly working as well, like, it must be really

Alex Steed 24:06

It's wild people who go through I mean, they're, you're already going through so much psychologically, to be in that position. And I am yeah, I am not at all a person who, I don't know, I have grand I have sympathy for for famous people, for billionaires, but I have sympathy for when people are suddenly under great amounts of stress from attention. And everyone thinks that it's like, well, they have money, so who cares? And it's like, no, it seems like psychological torture all the time. Yeah. And then to think about anyone who's and I know, I know. 

Billy Eilish has gone through a lot of like, physical pain from various things, and then to see the shows that she puts on, like to think about that all of that on top of already, like a pretty arduous position. Psychologically. I don't envy these people.

Stephanie Fornasier 24:51

Yeah. 100%. And, you know, I think it's sometimes some of that psychological makeup of the stars that make them so unique and amazing that can also make it hard for them as well to live that life. So, like one of the quotes she said is I think fame is very unnatural. I think it's important we guide artists and take care of them on a physical level as they rise, which is so true.

Alex Steed 25:15

Yeah, definitely. So yeah, so she's, I mean, clearly, and I don't know, did you get a sense from any of your research to what extent she, if at all had feedback on the script? Or did she come in after it was fully baked, because knowing that it seems either serendipitous or informed that, for example, at the cop bar, she punches the cop or she has questions for him about what it's like when cashiers take his picture unsolicited or whatever, it seems like that stuff was informed in a way where I mean, he knows enough famous people where you could ask them where he's gone through it, or he could ask people what they've gone through. But it almost feels like she's speaking through some of this stuff.

Stephanie Fornasier 25:55

Yeah, I didn't come across how much he contributed to the script. But yeah, I definitely get that sense as well, that she helped shape some of those nuances of the character and of the story. But yeah

Alex Steed 26:05

It's interesting, knowing sort of that he's gone through it is interesting, because they they went, he went whoever went through great pain to make these people saints otherwise, yeah, ya know what I mean? Like we have it, we have a great scene where they go to the store, because she's punched someone, and he feels really conscious about making sure she protects her hand, especially after what she learns at the store that she plays the piano and that these are all foreshadowing things, but also sort of character explanation, and he picks up like Cheetos or something Cheetos adjacent and she's like, You like Cheetos? No. And so we don't know what the Cheetos are for. Then his driver is eating Cheetos, he got them for the driver unsolicited, like he knows that the driver likes Cheetos. 

And so that was another thing that I was really interested in is it's like, there was attention to detail that served making these characters outside of their demons, not necessarily unassailable, but like to show that like, even if you've got all of your stuff in order, in every way that you do, living with some of the things that you're living with here can't help but sort of scrapped.

Stephanie Fornasier 27:15

And yeah, I think that's, that's a really good point in that you can see that he's ultimately a kind person, and a good person. And it's all these, you know, everything is gone through this led to this point that, you know, has impacted him so that you don't always see that in him. But I also wonder if it's also a demonstration of like, how little he thinks of himself that he cares more for his driver getting Cheetos rather than I feel like his his self esteem and self worth is actually quite low. So he helps others and he helps ally, but he doesn't necessarily feel like he deserves that.

Alex Steed 27:49

Yeah, yeah, that's a that's a great point. And, you know, often if you're in it, you have reconciled that there's maybe falsely or probably falsely that there isn't a whole lot of hope for you in that particular circumstance. So you know, if you're going to bother for anybody that might just want you to people around you.

Stephanie Fornasier 28:07

Yeah, yeah.

Alex Steed 28:09

And hope that maybe that'll rub off on you

Stephanie Fornasier 28:11

Yeah, exactly. I'll just briefly touch on the writer team and the, like the original

Alex Steed 28:16

Please

Stephanie Fornasier 28:17

because I found this quite interesting. So Eric Roth co wrote it. So Bradley Cooper did help write the script as well. And he's written lots and lots of films. He did Forrest Gump, which is something we covered way early on in the podcast. And what I find interesting about Eric Roth is that he was defrauded by Bernie Madoff. So

Alex Steed 28:36

Oh, wow.

Stephanie Fornasier 28:37

Poor guy.

Alex Steed 28:38

Well, I'm glad this movie, I'm glad this movie worked out.

Stephanie Fornasier 28:41

So probably recouped a few funds from this one. And also, oh, yeah, he wrote Benjamin Button. And he actually, yeah

Alex Steed 28:51

A weird collection of movies.

Stephanie Fornasier 28:53

very eclectic collection. And he lost his parents while writing Benjamin Button. So he says that it was his most personal film. And that's important to me, because it's the only film I saw my dad cry and when we when we went and saw it, so I think he did a good job of Benjamin Button, it seems

Alex Steed 29:11

oh my gosh, he also I'm looking at he also he wrote the upcoming killers of the flower Moon, which I just read the book.

Stephanie Fornasier 29:17

Oh, cool.

Alex Steed 29:18

I just read that book. And I'm very, very curious about how someone's going to handle it and knowing that he did it based on everything we know so far. I feel optimistic.

Stephanie Fornasier 29:28

Yes. Hopefully. It's a good one. It sounds like it's getting a lot of good press. So that's great.

Alex Steed 29:32

Yeah, I'm really glad.

Stephanie Fornasier 29:33

Oh, so let one last thing about Eric Roth that I just find interesting. He writes his all his scripts in DOS and delivers them in hardcopy. He refuses to send digital copies of his scripts.

Alex Steed 29:44

So wow, old school. That's why she writes her songs on a typewriter.

Stephanie Fornasier 29:48

Yeah. Must be

Alex Steed 29:51

hard, hard, long hand if she's forced to but it's fun.

Stephanie Fornasier 29:55

So the original writers of the 1937 film I went down a little tiny rabbit hole, because I was interested in was this some inspiration from real life, A real life couple? And there's actually been quite a few proposed real life inspirations. There was the marriage of Barbara Stanwyck and Frank Fay. There's also John Bowers was I don't know who these people are... someone like, I forgotten the name, from you must remember this. She probably knows.

Alex Steed 30:26

Absolutely. No, I mean, I was going to say, I know. So few names from this time. But from that show, I know that every romantic relationship mirrors what we saw on screen

Stephanie Fornasier 30:35

Yeah pretty much, Katrina Longworth

Alex Steed 30:38

Particularly of this.. Yeah, Karina, yes. Karina Longworth

Stephanie Fornasier 30:40

Sorry Karina yes. Totally. Yeah. So there's a few other people that have been suggested as being the inspiration for Norman Maine, who was the original name of the character who became Jackson, Maine. And there's also lots of inside jokes which suggest in the 1954 film and in the 1937, referencing other actors like Greta Garbo, Katharine Hepburn, Joan Crawford, there's a lot of similarities to an earlier film called What Price Hollywood? which is released in 1932, which was based on a story about Colleen Moore and her alcoholic husband, who was also producer, John McCormick, and also the death of a director Tom Foreman who died by suicide following a quote unquote, nervous breakdown. 

So it was there was actually when they made the first A Star is Born that they were criticised for ripping off What Price Hollywood?, but I don't think they there was any, you know, reparations or anything. So yeah, I just found it interesting that it could be based on so many stories, which

Alex Steed 31:39

does why Yeah, I don't, I'm surprised, honestly, that there are only four versions of this. Yeah. Like, if you're thinking about people who are, and I am not I live in Los Angeles, I am around the entertainment industry. By no means am I like in the entertainment industry, but like, you know, enough to know that like this is the most common. Like the most common story.

Stephanie Fornasier 32:05

and especially the story of needing to be attached or married to a man, as a woman in order to excel in the Hollywood scene and not being able to sort of make it on your own merits, which is still an issue, I think, sure. Not that I live in Hollywood. But yeah, also, one thing is that the original writers team, Dorothy Parker was, yeah, was one of the contributors to the script. And she's credited. But she was married to Alan Campbell, who also was a co writer. And Dorothy Parker was pretty proud of her contribution when she first saw the film. But then later of life, she said, Oh, I didn't actually contribute anything of significance. So I found that interesting. 

Also, even when you have contributed in Hollywood being like, Oh, actually, I didn't. So yeah, then there's, I'm sure there's more to that story. That would be really interesting to hear about. But just very reflective.

Alex Steed 33:02

I've had situations and I'm not saying that this is the thing or whatever. But I've had situations where I've looked at whatever a 15 or 20 year old project that my friends made, and I'm like, Oh, that was great, or whatever. And they're like you, you were a part of that. I don't remember. So how much of that or how much of it's like some other thing?

Stephanie Fornasier 33:22

Yeah, yeah. It could be many things. But yeah. All right. Well, how about we talk about, we kind of already touched on this, but some of the accuracy of the depiction of fame, addiction, depression, suicidal behaviour. I guess to start with, like, from what, you know, in your experiences, what did you think of the depiction of that addictive behaviour and also just that experience of being dependent on alcohol and as a bit of a coping strategy?

Alex Steed 33:51

Sure. I mean, I think like that, you know, he's addicted to alcohol. He also has a pretty steady pill addiction.

Stephanie Fornasier 33:59

That is, I think one of the first things we see is him taking a pill.

Alex Steed 34:03

Yeah, washing it and washing it down with pushing it down with with alcohol, we see what he's sort of up against right up front. Yep. And, you know, I think that that what we know from a lot of his exchange with Ali and with his with his brother, played by Sam Elliott. He was raised by a father who himself struggled with alcohol and maybe drank himself to death, not entirely, not entirely sure how he went out. And then he was left to be raised by his brother. Yeah. And his brother. It sounds like maybe he went through some stuff as well as a result of his relationship with his father. 

And I think like what is most important to highlight, particularly for people I know who live with are for ideally for now and forever on the other side of alcohol addiction or pill addiction. I think it's important to point out that these things are symptoms of Other stuff he's going through. Yeah. And he and he is going through not having dealt with in a substantial way the unresolved trauma of how he grew up. Yeah. And maybe also being genetically susceptible to addiction more than other people.

Stephanie Fornasier 35:18

Yeah. 100%

Alex Steed 35:19

Yeah. And so I thought that that it was good, because I think often alcoholism is portrayed as a specific form. And you spoke to this earlier, a specific form of like, turned up belligerents. Yeah, meaning like, it's a slurring hands on the bottle menacing. And it can be, depending on sort of like what someone's going through, it can be all of these things. But often, and often the people I know and love who have had their struggles. And myself when I've had these struggles, the issue is it's not, it's almost not not always that, but for some, it's never that. And as a result of it being never that it becomes extremely difficult for you to see that there is an issue, often because it's very difficult for other people around you to see that there's an issue. 

And obviously, like, it's known that he has an issue, his driver is tasked with helping him find more to drink after he's finished a full bottle. But also because he is famous. There's this financial infrastructure around him where the people who are most incentivized to maybe let him know he has a problem, their livelihood is dependent on him making it to another day. Yeah, and maybe getting in front of this problem is a long term fix. But it also could disrupt the livelihood tomorrow.

Stephanie Fornasier 36:44

Exactly.

Alex Steed 36:45

And so So that ends up sort of getting in the way. So there are these structural issues with regard to what makes it possible for you to see yourself for other people to see you there are these these issues with regard to what he has been experiencing, that he's able to resolve or not able to resolve? There's, we know it Ali's father is in recovery is my assumption based on sort of like what their relationship is now versus what we've heard hinted to. And in their relationship, we know that she pays lip service to forgiving him for a lot of it, but it sounds like maybe they haven't done a lot of the work together as father and daughter. But they do have a nice relationship. 

But yeah, overall, I do like that it is an extremely nuanced, seemingly from experience representation of what it's like to be living with addiction, again, not because you made a number of bad choices, and you're living that addict life. It's because as is the case with many, if not all, there's a lot of other things going on in the background in this for whatever reason, is habituated form of quieting those things down.

Stephanie Fornasier 37:56

Yeah. And because of where he's at, and like exactly what you were saying of his other people around him, their livelihood, being dependent on him getting what he needs to get through the day, there's so much enabling him to continue down this path in this state without looking at getting sober and actually dealing with some of those things that have contributed to him. Right. Yeah, it's like it's a vicious, I wouldn't even say it's a cycle. It's just it's a system. Yeah. A vicious system.

Alex Steed 38:25

Yeah, for sure. Well, it's like the same and enabling doesn't always look like everyone around you knows better, but they're like, I need a paycheck tomorrow. Yeah. Enabling looks like the fact that we're all still working even though the fucking planets burning. Exactly. Yeah, it's a it's a dependency on a particular type of system. Because if you slow down, you go down with it. And so that is often what enabling actually looks like. I think, in particular, with like, fame and entourages, and stuff like that a lot of people think that it is it comes from the fact that like, people have like bad designs on you and they want, you know, all they care about is them. And it's like, no, they're just another financial ecosystem, that has an incentive to not always do the right thing. 

And to not see that they're not doing the right thing we talked about this, I talked about this with clients actually, is, you know, how do we know if or when there's a time, you know, to sort of check in on stuff? Yeah. And I think that that might be a new question for the talent manager to ask. Because historically, it's not always a thing that's been first and foremost, in the minds of the people doing the job.

Stephanie Fornasier 39:32

And Ally's kind of caught up in that as well. Because like, the fact where he finds ally is on the pursuit of getting alcohol. Like if if it wasn't for that, they wouldn't have met each other. If it wasn't for going to the drag bar and having a drink. They, you know, she wouldn't be where she is. So it's like, it's all very much tied up in in a very complex way, right, where it's actually being a conduit for things happening. So it's a very it's quite a complex relationship it's not black and white

Alex Steed 40:02

It is down to the down to the fact that when she visits him at his like Celebrity Rehab facility, which is quite nice, beautiful, very beautiful, really showing us what the rest of us are missing out. She goes to visit him and you know pitches that if you don't want to come home to me, that's fine. And he's very perplexed by this suggestion. And it's it's a again like this This to me, there are all of these pieces of like codependent relationship formations because she's like anticipating what his needs going to be. And like is trying to fulfil that need before even like having a conversation about the need. And like, that ends up leading to the confusion in addition to just the fact that he is absolutely obtuse and a lot of ways. 

But she is anticipating that need and says, If you don't want to come home to me, that's fine. I imagine there's a piece of you that doesn't want to because like its in our relationship that a lot of your drinking has been happening. Yeah, yep. And in, to your point that began the relationship began on his purse, he just drank a full litre of whatever he was drinking. Yep, yeah. And then has maybe five or six other drinks at the bar at that scene. So So you know, it kicks off in that way.

Stephanie Fornasier 41:15

Yeah. So what does it look like sober? And is it good?

Alex Steed 41:20

Absolutely. And I think it's important this this was brought up when we covered the show. And I'm curious, I don't know if you came up across any of this. But one question that we had when we did our episode on this is it's like, what is his band? Like? Is he a country he is a country rock singer, but like, he's not a country singer. He's not a full rock singer. And a lot of people pointed out similarities. I don't know. Again, I don't know if this was intentional in the writing. And again, I imagine it might be that there's a lot of parallels to the Driveby Truckers and Jason Isabel's band. And because they sort of perfectly occupied the like middle ground between like rock and country, Jason Isbell had like a very famous sort of stretch like Jackson main did is ideally is on the other side of it and recovery, etc. 

So that's just a thing that I wanted to know that if if there is, if that isn't an actual connection, let's just make it a real connection.

Stephanie Fornasier 42:10

I did find out like who the band that helped sort of trained him to look like he's... Lukas Nelson and Promise of the Real.

Alex Steed 42:20

Yeah, who is it who are like best friends with the Isabel situation? Willie Nelson is mentioned in the office. Yeah. His brother's now Willie Nelsons manager. Yeah.

Stephanie Fornasier 42:30

There you go. So yeah, that that was obviously very deliberate.

Alex Steed 42:32

Oh, and I guess one of Jason Isbell songs is in the movie as well, they perform it.

Stephanie Fornasier 42:37

There you go. Yeah. And one of the other sort of inspirations was Neil Young and Crazy Horse. I think so. Yeah, definitely got those vibes as well. Yeah. Because like the music was actually, even though it was like for the film was really good.

Alex Steed 42:51

It was great. Yeah. Oh, I mean, clearly all made by people who really do this. Yeah. Yeah. I think it was important.

Stephanie Fornasier 42:56

And it was filmed in Coachella as well. So it was filmed. Oh, to look like a real concert? Because it was a real concert.

Alex Steed 43:03

Yeah, that makes so much sense.

Stephanie Fornasier 43:04

Yeah. So that's pretty cool. On the note of what you were saying about, you know, all the different systems contributing to the alcoholism. I just, I just wanted to touch on that, because I had lots of thoughts that like you say this, that genetic precursor, there's probably like, we know that his mother died in childbirth as well. So there's probably some unchecked grief, as well. And the fact that his brother raised him meant there's another child there that had to step in as a caretaking role, which is very disruptive for that sort of natural development of independence, healthy boundaries. It can lead to very codependent relationships, because they were very codependent. They had a very tumultuous relationship, Bobby and Jackson, but they're very, you know, Jackson, dependent on Bobby. 

And I think part of the issue there was that Jackson never learned how to be an independent adult, like he was still kind of trapped as a kid relying on others, like Bobby had to talk him into bed. And I think what happened when Ali came along, and she sort of took over that, that caring role,

Alex Steed 44:11

Especially because it sounds like she had to do that for her dad too.

Stephanie Fornasier 44:15

Exactly. So she was already sort of primed to need to take that role over so she sort of stepped into it very willingly, I guess whether she realised it or whether it was

Alex Steed 44:28

this is what I recognise the most in this movie is like I have been a person who has had to take care of a parent for both physical well being issues and issues related to sort of psychological ineptitude, I would say and then have it landed in relationships with people who have been either very, very, very taken care of or very, very, very neglected and and a formation looking. Not unlike what this relationship looks like, is familiar You're familiar. Yeah, I've been here.

Stephanie Fornasier 45:06

So it's yeah, it's hard not to without consciously doing it and seeking out this kind of relationships or finding yourself in that sort of relationship where you're becoming that sort of parent figure, okay, I figure, she, you know, there's points in which she sort of goes, you know, if you do this again, like when she comes and finds him at his friend's noodles house, like, if you do this again, I won't be there. But that obviously progresses. And I wonder if that's why he proposed to her as well being like, well, just I need you. I don't need you to, I can't have you leave. So she feels that she has to be there. 

And then it goes to like when he pays himself on stage, saying it's not your fault, which, you know, I'm of the mindset that yes, addiction is it is in some way a disease. I think, in that it's it's not something it's not a choice, but I think there's still accountability.

Alex Steed 45:58

Yeah totally and, I never know, I don't feel like I have an authoritative place to fall on like, where what meets what in that arena and not in a way that is trying to be evasive or effusive about accountability or to say that things have to be hyper accountable. And obviously, you know, we have to sort of own what we have done or where we have bad and all those people and then use that to move forward constructively. I have been with people I think, who have been shitty, and I understand the reasons they've been shitty, but it doesn't mean that they haven't been cheated. And I have also been a fucking stormy mess, from results of stuff that I've been through, not knowing how to sort of show up as a fully sort of functional adult and myself have have let people down according or, you know, let people down accordingly to where I've been. 

And the place where I bring up sort of not knowing where the line is necessarily on accountability is, again, I think accountability is extraordinarily important with regard to saying, I need to grow and incorporate this and move this forward. And that's extremely important and maturity and moving forward. The question I always have with regard to like, again, this question at the end that Sam Elliott says is, it's like, it's nobody, it's nobody's fault, but his fault. Yeah, it's like, well, a lot happened. Like, oh,

Stephanie Fornasier 47:22

You can't just blame him solely,

Alex Steed 47:24

right. Like a lot has happened in his life. Like, and I'm not saying again, like, by no means when he says, she's ugly in a fight, because he's that's that, you know, was that hurtful? Was that bad? Should he not have done that? Should he apologise? Like, absolutely, I'm not forgiving any of that. But you know, it sounds like this is not a person. He on his end her on her end, we're not necessarily given a fighting chance to not learn this stuff in a very messy in real time way. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, it sounds like they're learning how to be adults at 42. And like, 27,

Stephanie Fornasier 48:04

when the entire world is watching them at the same time. So I mean, they don't have a chance.

Alex Steed 48:12

And there have been people who've been, I'm not, I don't know what this is, I'm just saying it out loud. But there have been people who have been in ways like vicious or despicable to me. And I want to own and acknowledge the places where that's been hurtful and had negative impact and whatever has done things to me. But I'm still and I don't know if this was like a codependent thing. Like, I don't know if this is just like an empathy. I don't know what this is, like, I have great Still, despite despite the hurt great empathy for them, because I know that they didn't wake up and say, I'm going to be vicious, I know that they're still some fucking seven year old version of themselves, receiving, you know, some form of neglect or abuse or whatever. 

And like lashing out later because no one has been taught well, how to go about being like, we're not even taught how to like balance our fucking bank accounts when we're forced, let alone how to be decent people in the world. Yeah. So I'm sorry, I didn't mean that to be a whole aside about accountability and where it begins and where it ends, but whenever people are like very certain about it, it's like, Well, I understand that people come in with baggage, but people have to be accountable. I agree entirely. I'm curious about what they do in order to show up accountability, because often the way that people say these things make me think that they themselves haven't fucked up. Exactly. Or at least they're under the impression that they have it.

Stephanie Fornasier 49:40

Yeah, it's Yeah, I think like everything. It's not that black and white. We miss the nuance a lot in these conversations about accountability and it's also very all or nothing, but I think we need to be empathetic but also responsible at the same time.

Alex Steed 49:56

Yeah well if you're not you you won't ever know So sometimes you have to arbitrarily draw a line. And when I say arbitrarily, I mean, it's like, because there's two poles, right? There's one where there's like, no free will. And so anyone can do whatever they want. And there's another that's extremely deterministic. And it's, it's hard, it's hard to sort of know and you, you often have to draw it for yourself based on what your needs are. Yeah. But if you don't allow for seeing yourself where at least you have expectations of accountability of the people around you, you'll never draw boundaries accordingly, in a way that should probably happen

Stephanie Fornasier 50:34

100%, you should be a therapist.

Alex Steed 50:38

I go, I pay one enough. Maybe I can flip it.

Stephanie Fornasier 50:44

Well, Jonah Hill would say you can. *both laugh*

On that note, I really want to talk about the rehab because like what you've said, really highlights how, when treating alcoholism or substance abuse or addiction, I was reading, I think it was a YouTube video who was talking about there's there's usually two different ways that rehab facilities will treat it or treat the symptoms, they'll treat the, the triggers to want to engage with substances and reduce that need. And then there's the like dealing with the trauma and the reason behind it. So you know, there's a view that it's just a medical disease, and you just treat that. And then there's a view that you treat what's underlying it's, there's always something underlying the need for substance use. 

But what we tend to know is that it's better to treat both of those things. Because you can't really have one without the other. Because especially if you know if Jackson was to go through his trauma, and actually unpack some of that, and try and sort of reframe some of the things that have happened to him so that he can learn how to be essentially, that can be really difficult to process and go through. And that's a high risk time to engage with substance as your coping strategy. So you kind of have to learn new coping strategies, but also learn relearn some of those unhelpful belief systems, etc, that kind of get you to using those negative coping strategies, if that makes sense.

Alex Steed 52:22

No, it makes it well. And he also he has this tendency that's expressed that I noticed this time where I was talking about and dealing with either substance related stuff or like unchecked manic response or whatever is like sometimes there are times when you are talking and you you're you are not in control. And I don't mean that as a way to like excuse, whatever you do, but like sometimes, the mania or sometimes the addiction will end up kind of doing your talking for you. 

And what I mean by that is, the closest they get maybe to talking about the way his father in his relationship with his father has fucked up his life is when it comes up in the conversation between them. And he says that my father had more talent in his finger than you'll ever have, or whatever it is. That's not him talking. That's him shutting down the conversation. Yeah, that they don't have to talk about that. And that and I don't think that's him that's doing that. I think that that's like whatever is disordered. Yes, yes. We need to blow this shit up. Because we're getting too close to addressing and unpacking stuff. And we the issue can't afford to do that right now.

Stephanie Fornasier 53:30

And I think what that line says is that it sort of highlights maybe the relationship with alcohol was in order to get his dad's affection and love. Yeah, he needed to drink he was his drinking. Alcohol was a bonding sort of lubricant for them. So coming too close to don't use alcohol anymore is threatening, what was his relationship with his dad? So there's a lot in that statement. And you're right. It's like, No, this is too far. And I'm not ready for that. Because that also threatens my view of my dad. And that view of his dad is what helps him sort of get through because acknowledging that your dad was actually a shitty dad and an abusive dad is really hard to do.

Alex Steed 54:10

Yes, absolutely, totally.

Stephanie Fornasier 54:12

But I didn't like.... It's good that we saw rehab is good that it was a very nice rehab, which is probably very unrealistic for anyone who's not a celebrity. But I didn't love that when he did talk to the counsellor about his suicide attempt, which was a really lovely moment. The counsellors reaction, which was sort of echoing Jackson's reaction was to laugh like to laugh together that he broke the fan, which in a way could be a very funding moment for a therapist, but also it just didn't feel like he took that seriously at all. Like that's always sort of...

Alex Steed 54:43

I think I as a suicide it kid I loved that. Because the only way you could I could talk about it was that way and then later, I get there. And I assume the scene cuts and they have a chat. I hope I'm assuming at least but I was a person and still am a person who sometimes like a lot of laughter needs to lubricate us getting to the big thing. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know how much of that comes from his knowing Jackson or whatever we I don't know. But it's, it's interesting. I had the I had the inverse response where I was like, that's the only way you could get to me.

Stephanie Fornasier 55:20

That's probably the only way you could get to Jackson, I guess. Yeah, given that that's the only time he really is vulnerable about his attempt, I just my psychologist hat comes on and goes, No, that wasn't the most all things considered responsible way to portray a disclosure of suicidality didn't say that right. And you know, that scene could have been fine as it is, if it came up again. And there was like, this is really boring in film world, but like a suicide risk action plan or something to next time if you do feel suicidal, or what do we do like here? What are some strategies that you can use? That is very boring to film? It would have been

Alex Steed 56:01

Yeah, I have a I have an issue with being responsible. artistically. Like, I don't I don't not believe let me be clear. Do we, I have to be clear, I don't think anyone should go out of their way to be irresponsible, like in in representation, or if they know something is notably irresponsible, or that some specific way of portrayal trigger is triggered, like, I don't think people should go out of their way. But like, I do think it is sometimes important to like, if you're showing the humanity of a situation and trying to like show what that humanity might look like in an actual exchange, not shoehorning the by the book appropriate way to handle a thing into a fictional narrative.

Stephanie Fornasier 56:48

Yeah, that's fair.

Alex Steed 56:49

I think that if we, again, we should be responsible for things that we know I absolutely, I believe that. But I do think that like, once we start leaning too far into the responsibility of fictitious narrative into, like, what is psychologically appropriate at the moment? Not only are we going to get really clumsy about narrative, you're gonna have a shitload of very outdated things. 20 years from now.

Stephanie Fornasier 57:12

Oh, that's, that's a very good point.

Alex Steed 57:14

Yes. You know, because some study will happen where they're like, nope, actually, we just learned this and everything that we did to dictate what the right thing to do was in 2018, is actually very wrong.

Stephanie Fornasier 57:26

Yeah, that's a very good point. And it's hard to remove myself. And that's why I often get people like my husband, who was a film student to go, but that doesn't make thematic sense if they did that stuff. It's not always the way that it should be. And I guess on that note, I do think that the depiction of the suicide was pretty respectful.

Alex Steed 57:48

Yes, I was surprised in some ways.

Stephanie Fornasier 57:50

It didn't feel glamorising. It felt appropriately upsetting without being too like, we don't actually see it happen, which I think was a responsible way to portray it.

Alex Steed 58:01

It's somehow the balance of it being real, sombre, sad, but not like lingering on the actual violence of the scene in a way where sort of imagery can be triggering, we have a far enough shot from outside of the garage where we know what has happened. We see the dog waiting, which is devastating. Yeah. Yeah. In some ways, I think that there was a responsibility there with regard to being like, God, I mean, in my lowest moments, if you were like, your dog is gonna be upset. I'd be like, All right, I'll, you know, give me 90 seconds to go to fucking flush this ideation out the other side, but by way of it showing the immediate effect to the, to your loved ones, and your intimate. 

It's like there was I thought it was extremely well done. And if, if I'm sure there are people who don't think that, and I'm sure there are great reasons, I don't think I don't know. I thought it was great.

Stephanie Fornasier 58:58

I didn't actually read any criticisms of it, apart from the fact that it sort of implies in the film that it was the conversation with rez that sort of triggered him the the conversation saying, you know, you're ruining Ali's career, and you're an embarrassment. But I disagree. I don't think that looks like the one trigger. And we know that suicide isn't the result of one thing, and there's usually so many

Alex Steed 59:22

43 years of stuff that's

Stephanie Fornasier 59:25

negating all of that. But you also can see lots of signs that he's not expecting to live much longer. Like, when a friend comes over to their house like heaps earlier. Look at all his records. He says, Take whatever you want, like,

Alex Steed 59:39

yeah, that's Andrew Dice Clay. Yeah,

Stephanie Fornasier 59:42

yeah. Yeah, that's right. And also like the how he sort of ties loose ends with his brother and sister moves over that relationship.

Alex Steed 59:49

I think I agree. I mean, it's not a single thing. I do think the thing that that spoke to the conversation with Rez is again, it's like a critique of capitalism. Yeah, it's like, yeah, that guy's primary interest is, I think that they did such a good job of of illustrating that type of manager. Yeah. This is a person who like for sure, I believe he has some of Ali's interest in mind. He's also making 10 to 15% of everything that she makes. And so sitting through a situation where Jackson, in his mind fucks up his cash flow, because he's pissed himself on stage at an award show. That's part of his incentive. Yeah, yeah. And obviously, that's part of anyone's incentive is making money in that situation. 

But there are certainly people who are better with that than others. And this is a person who, from the get like, we see in an earlier conversation that this guy like Snipes, Jackson's drinking and not in like a constructive? Yeah, no, yeah. And I liked that. I agree by no means. So I think it's one thing that this like individual did, but the fact that the way that capitalist structure deals with this is like you actually are getting in the way of our ability to accumulate capital. We're going to speak very insensitive ly, about what you're going through right now in a way that may be triggering, in addition to all of these other things. Yeah. That's extremely resonant.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:01:17

Yeah. I think that's what this film does really well in. I don't know if the early iterations were as accurate because I wasn't there then. But it feels like it's pretty true to how brutal The Fame Game is. One thing that he only briefly touches on, but would be a huge part of Jackson's mental health would be the fact that he's losing his hearing and his tinnitus is getting worse. And we really, he barely speaks about it, he kind of there's that scene where there's a professional like figuring out his monitor so that he can hear better, but he refuses to wear it. I think it's uncomfortable. 

But given the fact that he's a musician, and hearing is a big part of that. And he's struggling with that. And that's getting worse throughout the film like that would make a huge impact, particularly if he's already got such low self worth, and the joy he gets out of life is his music. And then he can't even do that that would have a huge impact on his ability to keep going.

Alex Steed 1:02:13

It's also am I reading that scene wrong? But do we learn that he gets the tinnitus from trying to hang himself the first time?

Stephanie Fornasier 1:02:22

Oh I did. I did not pick that up. But that might be it.

Alex Steed 1:02:25

He says that it's a thing that happened when he was early on. And then And then he's describing it getting worse. And I could be making a leap from conflating some stuff. I certainly am riddled with ADHD in a way that makes following along sometimes difficult. But I don't know if it's because he says that in essentially the same breath is telling that story or if that story led to that, but I'm nearly sure that the way that that happened, or the starting point is from his failed attempt from hanging from the fan

Stephanie Fornasier 1:02:55

The fan Yeah, I think that that would make sense. And I can't believe I didn't think of that, because I did look up a bit about tinnitus, it can be a result of damage to the ear and auditory system from brain injury or head injury or ear wax buildup, and it's common in musicians. So it could be very likely that because of that injury, that's where it started.

Alex Steed 1:03:13

Yeah I think so. And it's like, as far as symbolism goes, holy,

Stephanie Fornasier 1:03:17

You couldn't get any more symbolic. Yeah. And that's what the pills is. I didn't pick up on this in the film, but the pills that he's been prescribed for are for tinnitus, because often antidepressants or anti anxiety medications can be prescribed for tinnitus to alleviate some of the emotional effects of it.

Alex Steed 1:03:33

He does. I do want to point out though he does have like a prescription he's supposed to be taking, but when he's getting the shot of steroid, he's surreptitiously given a package of I don't think he's around. And he says he has a real Dr. Feelgood situation. And he says to the you know, he says kind of under his breath, thank you to the doctor who's given him this bag of pills. He's not

Stephanie Fornasier 1:03:53

Yeah, that's right. I just I feel like it was kind of glossed over that the Tinnitus could be making such a huge role in his mental health. Because, yeah, that would be a huge part of it to me.

Alex Steed 1:04:04

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think like, it's, I do think they leave a lot in a way that I think can sometimes be frustrating, and also a way that I really appreciate I think they show you all the pieces, yeah. And they're like, depending on when you're coming into this, you'll get different things out of this. For that reason that again, from like a narrative standpoint, I'm often a little against doing things that are always sort of the most socially responsible thing and the name of art.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:04:32

Also it can be really, if it's in your face, it's a bit too in your face,

Alex Steed 1:04:36

You bet And it's like also the when, when, when there's this discourse, and again, I don't know if this is true or not, but when there's whatever discourse that happens, where it's like, the younger generation doesn't love to see sex in movies for X, Y, or Z reason. Is it like I don't, I don't care because it's hard. Yeah. And it should be challenging and you should have to use your brain to engage it. I don't at all think that we should make our so that literally everyone feels a both like comfortable and socially taken care of throughout the process. It's art, like it should be sometimes disorienting, and sometimes leave stuff for you to have to figure out.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:05:14

Yeah, I think it makes it more able to be discussed and unpacked when it's more subtle and not as responsible. I think it's in some cases when it's so ridiculously irresponsible or not accurate, that it almost makes fun of the experience where it bothers me the most.

Alex Steed 1:05:31

Yeah, definitely. And I think, you know, to the point, again, it's like Jackson's going through a lot. It's a lot on a lot. And it's I think it's hard to identify what thing it might be, is it the fact that he's ageing and nearing a place of forced retirement from malady? Is it the fact that that malady was created, in part by the trauma, not just not just metaphorically, but literally, is it the fact that they have all of this unresolved stuff, and he can't quite touch it like it's any number of things, which again, to me is the truer to life piece of capital G capital T going through it. It's sometimes hard to nail down what explicitly or specifically it is, sometimes it's all of it at once. And sometimes it's one thing at a time.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:06:18

And I think compared to the the other two versions that I saw, it does it the best, particularly the scenes where he ends his life in the first and the first two films, he walks into the ocean, which sounds really awful. Yeah, good. It'd be really horrible way to go. And then the third one, the Barbra Streisand. One, he drives himself, he just smashes the car. And what's her name? And Esther finds him, so it's a lot more dramatic. I thought the character in the 1976 one, he's just so over the top in his portrayal that it gets a bit silly. And sure, Bradley Cooper's one, this one has fixed all those wrongs, in that sense, and the way that that was portrayed, that's great.

Alex Steed 1:07:00

Yeah, I appreciate this movie, I think the only thing that gets me and I don't know that it's the movies fault, I think it's kind of cultural, literary literacy is fault more than anything else, or maybe the necessities of marketing, or how you've sort of positioned a narrative is that this is accurately or not, or maybe it's because of sort of, again, the shorthand of selling the movie, but this is sold as a deeply romantic movie. And there's, there's a lot in there that is because we want nothing more than to be seen in cheer lead. And this is Ali, as a person who has not been seen for a lot of reasons and finally gets seen by somebody and valid, it finds validation and the way that she is seen. 

But there's also all of these other things going on. And I think like, partly, you know, it's like the people who confuse Walter White for anti hero, or Scarface for an anti hero, it's like confusing this for like a grand love story. There certainly is love. At its core, I think it wouldn't have worked if there wasn't. But there's all these other things that I think become secondary, if you're looking only exclusively at the loves narrative,

Stephanie Fornasier 1:08:29

I've got lots of thoughts on that. one article that I will link it's really good is that a star is one has a problem with consent, which it's a really good read.

Alex Steed 1:08:39

That's great.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:08:40

And it's so true. Because when you see all the different points of the film where Ali does something, a lot of it is not her choice, like when she comes up on stage with him. She doesn't want to do it. And he forces her, you know, everything she's kind of pushed into, including her dad, like, it sounds like her dad brings his friends around to her house. And she's not necessarily I think it's his house as well. But like she's kind of at the mercy of men and their choices all the way through the film. I think that's a really a clear indicator of why this isn't a healthy relationship, a lot of the things that happened. Actually, she's sort of talked into most of the time.

Alex Steed 1:09:16

Yeah and I it's interesting, and I wonder how.. that all is true. And I wonder, there's obviously a lot that's happening by regard to like power and gender dynamics in that and I'm not saying that she is not forced on stage, but I also am a person who the idea of if I had something great to sing or say or whatever. However, I had talked myself out of believing I had anything great to say to the point where like I had internalised all of the naysayers to the point where I would find with be with just sitting on the sidelines. I do think that I would probably appreciate a couple of nudges in order to pursue an opportunity. You know, it doesn't go further than that, sort of thematically across the board. Yeah, probably. 

But I also understand that there is some countering with regard to the fact that she's internalised all of her critics to this point to the point where she quotes them and saying that it's the reason why she's not doing. Yeah. And, you know, conversations about consent are always extraordinarily important. And those are those are worthwhile criticisms to bring up but also sometimes in a way that's respectful and coming from a good place and coming from a place of love. Sometimes people need to be nudged out of having internalised their worst enemies, ideas about them.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:10:33

That's it. Yeah, that's a really good point. And I obviously her being nudged led to really good things. She became very famous. But I guess there's the sort of dynamic there that's played into it as well.

Alex Steed 1:10:48

Yeah, the dynamic Yeah. Pretty toxic. I got I got I'm trying to be as careful as but I just want to say like, like, as an individual choice. Yeah. And overall, the dynamic where she's gone from taking care of one manbaby straight to another

Stephanie Fornasier 1:11:03

who she also feels indebted to because of what he's done for her career. So it's you. So it feels like she doesn't think she has a choice. It's not a unconditional, it feels like it's not an unconditional love. And the fact that you know, when she starts making music that he doesn't particularly like and he starts treating her awfully is another example of that sort of dynamic like, you know, I want you to do it the way I want you to do it.

Alex Steed 1:11:28

Well I found that so interesting, because that to me, was the muddiest piece of the entire about she's making stuff that's like commercial. And is that real? And is she leaving her soul? Is she sort of putting her soul on the ground? Whatever he says sort of when they're looking at the billboard, like, is she being authentic? Yeah, that's the sort of big question and I don't think that she is and honestly like, I agree. Yeah, I don't agree. Like I agree that like that criticism needs to come. And she's, she's essentially being taken and moulded by this, like Scooter Braun like character, who has these like grand visions for exactly who and how she should be.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:12:09

And I wonder how similar to Lady Gaga as experience that was like,

Alex Steed 1:12:14

me too absolutely, because I think that there was a place for a conversation about that, but the movie didn't quite know what Yeah, because it is extremely fair and right for her to hear that. It's like you went from being like, but also, I guess, I guess it should be said we don't know what her her actual style is. Because we only hear one of her original songs kind of against her will. And then the rest of it is whatever it comes out. And so this could be a this could be a wrong assessment about how her career goes artistically not honouring where she's,

Stephanie Fornasier 1:12:46

and that's where it's very not like, it was an article that said, Oh, Ally's a feminist icon. And I'm like, how? Because every question everything she does is because of what a man wants editor essentially like this.

Alex Steed 1:13:00

She's like, really just becomes a cog, which is probably very accurate. Yeah. In a family system and a in a famous system. Yeah, it's a real fame monsters are in the barn.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:13:13

And even at the end, like when she sings her song for Jack, what I thought was interesting about that Barbra Streisand version is she sings her own song, or at least I think she starts singing his song, and then she turns it into her own song. Whereas even at the end, Ali's shares her name is Ally Maine for the first time and 60s song like even even in his absence, she's still Jack's wife.

Alex Steed 1:13:37

Well, the thing that I think is just last by the timeframe that's represented. Yeah, is I think, Ally four years from now is gonna have a lot of realise, yeah, yeah, you know, she's still even when she sings the song at the end, he's passed, like she's in it, like she is in a formation that pre existed this relationship even, you know, like, she's like, kind of in it, you know, I am extraordinarily I feel like patient and I tried to be as kind as possible and forgiving if I'm up there doing the Grammy speech and my partner comes up and and despite, I understand all the different reasons why this could happen, it does a thing that is publicly humiliating and derailing to like my success that I also got, because it's all so complex, actually. Yeah. Yeah. And she's just in it. 

And we don't get a ch- because of how in it she is in there. You know, so many of us have been in a thing where you're not even in the thing you're in, you're in a formation that was created before the thing even started, just the characters are new. You know what I mean? Yeah. And she is so in it, and we don't get enough time out to see her have any perspective on where she just was. Yeah. So I don't think that she there is room for her to be a feminist icon like she's not making her own choices. She's in a current

Stephanie Fornasier 1:14:59

Exactly. And we don't even hear much of her backstory apart from the fact what her dad does, and that we know that there's some alcohol issues in his past. Mom's not there. And she wants to be a singer. That's that's kind of the only sort of backstory we get from Allie. Who is she really? we just know her as an extension of the men in her life?

Alex Steed 1:15:20

Right? Well, it's perfect that she's just Ali. Yes, that's as far as we get. Again, no disrespect to like Gaga's performance, no disrespect. I think like, overall, there are certainly some things the movie could have done to give her like a little bit more of a dimension. And at the same time, I am a person who appreciates like, when we don't have a lot to work with outside of like, we just have who is on screen, and we have to kind of reverse engineer some stuff. Yeah. But I do think that he gets a hell of a lot more articulated backstory. Yes. Then she has the luxury of getting in the movie. Yeah, you know, she's almost she's a little bit like a fridge character. 

You know, like, she's like her her tragedy, the way that this is sold to many. And I guess it just depends on like, who you see yourself in when you watch the movie to determine sort of who decide whether who is the main character. But I think like for many, they're like, Well, this is it's a star is born. This is the ascent of this person. And it's like, no, no, like, this is the story of his spectacular, tragic decline. And she was used as a means of giving that story stick.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:16:30

Yes, yeah. Which I think is very reflective of the original versions, or at least the 1954 version, where it's really all about the Norman main character. And sure Judy Collins character Esther is really just yeah, it like none of the films passed the Bechdel Test.

Alex Steed 1:16:48

It just, I'm trying to it's funny that you mentioned 'you must remember this' I just texted my podcast partner Sarah to see if she had any idea what I was talking about. I know that Judy Garland went through some stuff with like an obsessed and scary director at some point in a way that felt like it spoke to like some of her experience of what was being portrayed on screen and just knowing like all of writers and this is what like film noir was about. Yeah, it's like it's like about sort of like seedy underbelly this things happening, that things happening. It's really just about like, disillusioned writers experience in Hollywood. There's an underbelly, and there's a bad guy, and there's these bad guys. And there's these people in charge all this. It's just about them responding to Hollywood. Yeah. 

So knowing that these people were like writing this story speaking, it's like another form of the noir story. They're like, we're, it's fucked over here. You guys should know. And a lot of these people off screen experienced many of these in this iteration. Back in that era with Garland, whoever we know is Streisand, they've all experienced they've all seen some version of this or been been a part of something

Stephanie Fornasier 1:17:55

which maybe speaks to why it's so classic, and it's been remade so many times, but I think part of that is also the love story and people finding that passionate toxic love very intoxicating in itself.

Alex Steed 1:18:07

Yeah, yeah, it is the story. Yeah. It's like the story isn't two people find each other you know, it all works out happily ever after. Like, story love story. Yeah. is usually at the very least two people who have a grand fondness for each other show up in discordant positions of disarray and can't find harmony. Yeah, like that is that is unfortunately the common stories. Yeah.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:18:38

It's just reminding me of your Romeo and Juliet episode.

Alex Steed 1:18:41

Oh, sure. Yeah.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:18:42

And it's got like, similar themes of having that very intense, passionate love story. But that was always doomed to fail.

Alex Steed 1:18:49

Right? Absolutely.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:18:51

Because of everything else. Great episode. Everyone should listen.

Alex Steed 1:18:55

Yeah, we were very lucky in that episode. We had a it was a really great

Stephanie Fornasier 1:18:58

oh Melanie Zanetti, who's a fellow aussie, who we love.

Alex Steed 1:19:03

Yeah, she was really fantastic. Yeah, really, really fortunate.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:19:06

So we're kind of winding up but I was just wondering if there was any other sort of stereotypes or tropes that you thought were obvious in the film that we haven't already touched on?

Alex Steed 1:19:17

No, not not in particular was pretty thorough. I would love to know again, I don't like things over explained necessarily. So I don't necessarily really felt like this was missing. But I'd love to know more about Sam Elliott. What he's going through like he, you know, being the eldest and having to keep that stuff together. Like I I'm the youngest sibling. And I know the things that my eldest siblings had to go through were very, very traumatising in a very different direction. And so just knowing what an elders had to do, in that situation, I would be interested to know more. 

I don't think that the movie is lacking for not knowing that but I think it's balance of illustrating sort of the bad things not over explain. During the bad things, illustrating the good things, not over explaining the good things, and just like letting all of these dynamics work together. Yeah, I think it was handled pretty well. And I imagine knowing that Cooper was bringing his some of his lived experience to the film makes a lot of sense to it. Yeah. Or to his portrait to how he directed it in.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:20:18

Yeah, I think that was really the best thing of the film, from what I read, a lot of people felt this way, too, is how it really portrays the struggle with addiction, particularly within a relationship really brutally, but also really well. And only knowing someone from the other side of it, I felt for that, I thought that was really good. I think you're probably not going to like this. But I do wonder if it would have been, okay, if he didn't end his life, because it sort of perpetuates that trope, or that message that an addict will never recover. 

Like, if someone like Jackson Maine is doomed, there's an inevitable tragedy, you know, he's not going to be able to get help and come out of this and be sober. And we know that that's not true, because there's so many great success stories. There's lots of support out there for substance addiction, and also for managing trauma as well. And obviously, it wouldn't be as dramatic an ending. But if they were going to change a big aspect of the story, I would have been interested to see a less tragic ending, obviously, it would have been a very different parting message. But I think there's some potential harmful message there. If you identify as a Jackson Maine, that you might feel like, well, I'm just going to be a burden. So you know, that is an option.

Alex Steed 1:21:41

Yeah, I don't... I'm not necessarily against that idea. I'm against that idea. If I guess the the thing that sort of I have an immediate feeling about is like people need to stop getting all of their ideas about where something can land by watching one movie. Yeah, you like that, that I think maybe is like part of where my feelings. Initially, feelings come from there. I agree with you that I do think that there are some potential negative outcomes from just the way that that is portrayed and thinking that like maybe sort of there's inevitable doom if you're in that situation. I also think that there's a narrative convenience, because the only way to keep them likeable is to kill them. I have his struggle.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:22:20

Well, yeah, he sees that as a selfless act like I'm a burden, and she's struggling because of me. So I will end my life and not be a burden.

Alex Steed 1:22:27

Because the reality which is very difficult to capture, is he probably is in and out of treatment for years. Yes, yeah. Before he finally finds the groove, and maybe ideally, is able to work it out. And then very, probably loses the relationship in the in the long run. But like a lot happens. There's a tidiness to him dying, unfortunately. But I do agree that it would be nice to not have it seem like the only form of acceptable punctuation is is is suicide. And at the same time, I'm a person who's watched a tonne, a tonne of movies of people dealing with addiction. And the unfortunate thing is, is when they keep living, you don't like them very much. Because they keep they keep getting in their own way.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:23:18

And that's the that's the reality. It's not, like you go to rehab, you learn strategies, you're fine now, like it's a long, long, long journey.

Alex Steed 1:23:27

It's a long journey. Yeah, absolutely. And that's an important, I do agree that that regardless of how that's delivered, that's a very important message that people are able to find somewhere. This is not a tidy process. This is a real iterative, a very frustrating, a very arduous, very hard process. But it's where it's worth it. It's worth it. Because, unfortunately, is your alternatives to not working on it are bad. Yeah. And it's going to be a lot of work. But it is absolutely worth doing the work. For your sake, for the, for the love of the people you love for the sake of doing something in kindness for them as well. You shouldn't just do it for them. But you that's absolutely a great incentive. But in order to change in Jackson's case, 43 years of stuff, it's gonna take some time.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:24:22

Yeah. And I think like you said, you know, if you're doing it for someone else, that's a great incentive. But it takes some time to actually get to the point where you're doing it for yourself. And that can give you more drive as well because at the end of the day, having things to live for within yourself. That's that's a huge journey to go through.

Alex Steed 1:24:40

Well, you you have to I don't have many sort of orthodoxies with regard to how I think things should have to happen but I do think with regard to this sort of thing, and that says like pacifically in a trip like you need to do it for yourself like you you at the end of the day you are who you're with, at the end of the day you are who you're with at the beginning of the day, you have to do it for yourself, what I think is important speaking to a lot of the things that we've talked about with regard to this movie, is that may not be intuitive, you may not know how to do anything for yourself, you may only know how to do superficial things for yourself not not go deep. 

And so I saw a friend and a writer, say something along the lines of like, in order to like train yourself to know how to do stuff for yourself, you start with doing it for other people. And maybe that's how you start to be able to imagine that you're worth it, too. So like, whatever the reasons, like you got to start with knowing that things have to be better and start working on those things. Yeah. And then getting in there. But But no, I agree. I mean, I think if one is using this, to inform what they think is possible, and what they think is not possible with regard to the tragic arc of addiction, you know, suicide, depression, whatever else is going on. I would like to ask people to know that

Stephanie Fornasier 1:25:55

this is not their only Yeah, and there's other films to watch. I can't think of right now.

Alex Steed 1:26:02

There are so many, and a lot of them are a bummer. Yeah, sadly,

I'm a huge fan of it's not again, the outcome is not great. But it's not it's not as tragic as this. But I don't know if you've ever seen the movie Love Liza, which I think is extremely, it's about the characters portrayed by Philip Seymour Hoffman, who I can't remember Oh, grief is that his partner has died. him but he becomes addicted to huffing

Stephanie Fornasier 1:26:32

Yes, I don't think I've seen the whole film. But back in the day, when we had the equivalent of cable Foxtel. I remember watching a clip from it.

Alex Steed 1:26:40

Yeah, that's a tremendous, almost sometimes too real living with trauma and addiction movie. But I think it's really great. This movie wouldn't have been a blockbuster if it had, if it made some of the choices that Love Liza makes. Love Liza is worth visiting, i

Stephanie Fornasier 1:26:57

There's a reason why I didn't think of it straightaway. It's not quite A Star is Born

Any parting thoughts on A star is born or anything that we might have missed that you wanted to talk about?

Alex Steed 1:27:20

No I just want to clarify, not in a Hedgy way. But I want to clarify what I was talking about earlier with regard to not knowing sort of where understanding someone's background ends and where accountability begins. The only reason I bring that up in particular is I find so much dialogue and quote, discourse, which usually if you have to say, quote, discourse, it's not actual, it's not an actual discourse, I find so much of that to be very definite, and very absolute, and almost sort of Orthodox fickle. It's like, I would do this, or someone should do this, or whatever. And I think that that form of certainty, and belief is very comforting. 

But it doesn't leave a lot of room for you to think about how situations actually go did yeah, yeah. And how then to respond when you're actually faced with those situations. And so I do think that there's like a very, like beneficial and important amount of being humble and being naive. And understanding these situations and giving people grace, that is, isn't important, just because it's the nice thing to do. It's important because it like helps you understand how to operate in some of these situations. And all of that is to say, like, once you do figure out what your boundaries are, and what is important to you, and where accountability is necessary for you to get by in relationships with people, then you can enforce those boundaries, yes. And then you can sort of articulate those boundaries. 

And so, again, I don't want it to sound like I don't like I don't believe that everything is sort of should be described in a relativist way or whatever. But I think that it's important to remain sometimes naive in that place, as you're articulating and understanding what your needs and expectations are and how you expect the people around you to be

Stephanie Fornasier 1:29:08

Yeah, you've articulated that really well. And we can get very high and mighty about situations that might not necessarily apply to our real life experience. And yeah, I think it's really worth taking a step back from that and I think the media really has a lot to answer for for how situations are portrayed in a very black and white way so we can kind of get carried away with that as well.

Alex Steed 1:29:31

Yes, yeah.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:29:33

We're kind of primed to feel that way

Alex Steed 1:29:34

And the whole. I know we all know this at this point, but like social media makes money on traffic. Easiest way to generate traffic is to say negative or polarising things and then you essentially set up millions of cottage industries of saying negative and polarising and very certain things, and that's great with regard to getting enough attention to sell vitamin supplements. That is not how our lives

Stephanie Fornasier 1:29:58

but it's sort of how our brain is.. I sound Like a boomer, but it's kind of how we're operating now in how we engage with media and how we think about things like we've become quite polarising.

Alex Steed 1:43

Yes, no, no, definitely. Well, it's, again, it's almost 100% of our exchanges with people outside of our immediate universe or households is mitigated and mediated by these things that prioritise that sort of exchange. You know, it is not surprising that that's the flavour of the exchange. And by no means to me, I think it's very important to be like, this isn't a kids these days situation. This was manufactured by wealthy people in order to stay wealthiest

Stephanie Fornasier 2:08

Yeah it's made this way. This is what they want. Yeah, yeah. Agreed. Thank you for that. I think we covered everything.

Alex Steed 2:14

This is a lovely conversation. I really I was I feel very grateful to have been a part of it.

Stephanie Fornasier 2:19

I feel very grateful to have you to talk about it. And I think yeah, you've made me reflect on things in a different way in the film, there's definitely problematic aspects of it and things I don't love about it, but it's it's got a lot of value in it. I think

Alex Steed 2:33

I loved it for the right reasons. *laughs* I think that that's what's important. It was this was really nice. I really appreciate it have the opportunity to talk with you and especially here it'd be informed by your by your background in these arenas, that was great

Stephanie Fornasier 2:48

and vice versa. I'm obviously going to plug we've already talked about but your podcast you are good. One of the greatest podcasts ever I believe.

Alex Steed 2:58

Thank you so much.

Stephanie Fornasier 2:58

But how can people find you on social media?

Alex Steed 3:00

My name is Alex Steed on all social media all one word so they can find me on what is now known as Twitter until it goes down forever. Blue Sky, Instagram and Tiktok those are kind of the big ones and then you can find You Are Good and all of those same places but tiktok but I do all the Tick Tock for the show. So yeah, find You Are Good or Alex Steed or both in all of the places where social media happens.

Stephanie Fornasier 3:24

Thank you so much.

Alex Steed 3:26

Awesome. Well, thank you so much. Enjoy whatever it is you're going into

Stephanie Fornasier 3:29

Thank you *both laugh*

Music Break 3:29

outro finishes

Stephanie Fornasier 3:34

This podcast is not designed to be therapeutic prescriptive orconstitute a formal diagnosis for any listener. For a longer version of this disclaimer, please check the Episode notes on your podcast app.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai