Two Backbrace Girls, and Romy & Michele’s Highschool Reunion

TRANSCRIPT - Episode 68: Two Backbrace Girls, and Romy & Michele's Highschool Reunion (with Lauren Edwards)

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I'm Edward October. Ask any bold individualist and they'll tell you all you need for a perfect eggnog is to combine egg yolks beaten until creamy egg whites beaten until fluffy heavy cream, a generous portion of fresh ground nutmeg and an even more generous portion of liquor. Most people use dark brown I prefer bourbon. The final two ingredients are essential. A cozy seat by the fire to sip it and to go story told his only October pod can tell it this year October pods gift to you is a Christmas ghost story that can easily be called a classic of the medium that drops on December 25. Christmas Day, find it on our YouTube channel, October pod home video or on October pot AM. wherever you get podcasts. You can find all of our links at October pod vhs.com. Listen by the fire and we guarantee will be the crowning pleasure of your busy holiday season. After all, eggnog without a belt of good which is hardly eggnog and Christmas without an October Paco story is hardly Christmas October pod. Yuletide horror for bold individualists.

Lauren 1:19

It's such a common affliction and it does affect girls more than it does boys.

Steph 1:25

Yes definitely

Lauren 1:25

And I've always joked that's because girls have the weight of the patriarchy on their shoulders. *both laugh*

Steph 1:34

Welcome to Psychocinematic a podcast where we analyze depictions of mental illness and disability in popular films and TV. I'm your host Stephanie Fornasier. If you love our podcast and want to give us some support, make sure you're following Psychocinematic podcast on Instagram, Tik Tok and Twitter. And check out our website Psychocinematic podcast.com. For access to special bonus content episodes early access stickers and contribute to our regular fundraisers, join our Patreon. Starting from $3.50 a month you can be the coolest Psychocinematic listener there is

Music Break 2:05

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Steph 2:10

I'd like to start today's episode by acknowledging the traditional owners of the land on which we record this podcast on today, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation and pay respects to elder's past, present and emerging and acknowledge that we're currently on stolen land. And welcome to the podcast Lauren Edwards. How are you today?

Lauren 2:32

I'm good. I'm good, apart from some slight technical issues, but I'm good now.

Steph 2:37

Thank you. There's always technical issues.

Lauren 2:39

Yes, correct

Steph 2:39

thats' the way it goes. Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm so glad you're you're with us. Would you like to just briefly introduce yourself to our listeners?

Absolutely. My name is Lauren Edwards. As you said, I am a singing comedian and all around social commentator, disability advocator and anti capitalist girl next door. That's kind of me.

Lauren 3:00

Love that. I also want to mention your deep dives and insider knowledge on the Bermuda Triangle, at Sea World

Steph 3:07

Oh, Yes. Yes, I am a I am not a Disney adult. But I am a theme park adult. It's it's I would be embarrassed. But you know what? I'm in my cringe era, so I don't care

Lauren 3:08

we're all very cheugy

Steph 3:22

Well, thank you so much for coming on.

Lauren 3:24

My pleasure.

Steph 3:24

Well, I sort of invited you to talk on the podcast today because we both share something in common, which is not very commonly spoken about even though it's quite a common disease. And that's that we both have curvy spines. So we both have scoliosis. So I was really keen. I've always wanted to do an episode on scoliosis. And then I thought I've got to ask Lauren to talk scoliosis with me

Lauren 3:49

100%. love it.

Steph 3:50

So I'll probably just start with just explaining to our listeners what scoliosis is. Yeah, and feel free to jump in with your own thoughts as well. But scoliosis is a sideways curvature of the spine that most often is diagnosed in adolescence. While scoliosis can occur in people with conditions such as Sir cerebral palsy and muscular dystrophy, the cause of most childhood scholars is not known, which is why it's often called adolescent idiopathic scoliosis.

Lauren 4:17

Sounds very exotic when you say it when you tell people you have Idiopathic Scoliosis to like, what does that mean? And I was like, it means nobody knows why I have it. I'm a mystery.

Steph 4:29

So yeah, mysterious. Most cases of scoliosis are mild, but some curves worsen as children grow and severe scoliosis can be quite disabling, and especially serious spinal curve can reduce the amount of space within the chest, making it difficult for the lungs to function properly. And one thing that I was concerned about when being someone with scoliosis is how it might affect childbirth. You know, the hips and the widening of the hips and all of that.

Lauren 4:55

Absolutely.

Steph 4:56

Children who have mild scoliosis are monitored closely usually with X ray As to see if the curve is getting worse. And in many cases, no treatment is necessary. And some children might need to wear a back brace to stop the curve from worsening. And others might need surgery to straighten more serious curves, which I always find interesting because when I tell people have scoliosis, they they sort of say, oh, yeah, you know, we've all got a bit of, you know,

Lauren 5:19

we've all got a bit of that. And it's like, no, no, I have it.

Steph 5:22

Yeah. Very prominently

Lauren 5:23

Whatever you've got, I can guarantee you mine is worse.

Steph 5:28

My first question, Will you ever given because a lot of people say this to me? at schools, you're usually given like a bend test where they actually check if there's any differences in your back sort of leveling? And I never had that. Did you have that?

Lauren 5:42

No. So this was a big point of contention for my mum and kind of my school in many ways, because when I was diagnosed, the orthopedic surgeon kind of mentioned, you know, did you have a test at school? And my mum said, or she should have and I had no recollection of ever having one. And it turns out, we didn't. I think because you and I are the same age, I think at for some reason, we just lucked, we didn't have good luck in that. I think we just missed kind of the cutoff when they stopped doing them.

Steph 6:11

And we also grew up in Brisbane slash Meanjin. Is that correct?

Lauren 6:16

Yeah,

Steph 6:17

Maybe a Queensland thing as well, I don't know.

Lauren 6:18

Maybe. Yeah, that's very possible. But you know, I never it was never looked at by nurse because at school because I actually was diagnosed quite late for someone with my kind of curve, like, normally, I would have been picked up when I was about 10 or so. But I wasn't diagnosed till I was nearly 14.

Steph 6:34

Wow, that's interesting. Because I was around the same age. I was about 14 as well. Yeah. So tell me if you're happy to just tell me your experience of being diagnosed and what, who's up on it and what not sure. Well,

Lauren 6:48

I actually was, in many ways was fortunate in that I was, I have a an S bend. Well, I had an S bend. So it was very much counteracting itself on top and bottom. So looking at me from with, you know, just the normal, I You probably wouldn't have been able to tell straight away that I had anything really wrong with me, because for some reason, my body hid it very well. But I was a bridesmaid in a wedding. And I was being fitted for a dress. And the lovely seamstress had obviously made the dress on a mannequin. And then was putting the dress on me and the hem wouldn't sit straight. And I think we went back and forth for like, a few days because she was just tearing her hair out not understanding what she was doing wrong. And then it was my mom who was like, actually don't think it's you. I think it's her think something's going on with her shoulders. Shoulders is it's your fault. It's her fault. And then yeah, so she took me to the GP and the GP got me to do a to bend over and do that test. And I think she immediately looked at me and within, you know, not even two seconds, she was she has scoliosis and you need to go to her orthopod straightaway, pretty much. And it turns out that I had a 40 degree curvature, which was like the kind of the borderline were between having a brace and having the surgery. So it was quite significant.

Steph 8:09

Yep. And I think my..., I forgotten all the numbers, because it was so long ago

Lauren 8:14

Yep, it's a long time ago

Steph 8:16

but mine, I think mine was about it was in the early 40s as well when it was first noted. So I'll put some stuff in the notes to explain what that degree means. But it's called the Cobb angle. So it's sort of the degree to which the spine is bent. And the more significant the more need for treatment, obviously correct. So what happened next for you.

Lauren 8:38

So we went back and forth, you know, with several different, you know, with the GP with the orthopod with the actual technicians who kind of make braces and do the imaging and whatever, because I was right on that 40 degree line, I could opt for the surgery or I could opt for a brace. i They were sort of happy to do either one, whichever one I was happy to do obviously as a terrified nearly 14 year old girl. The idea of having the surgery was quite confronting and I think my parents were also very confronted by that so they decided to as is often the case in the medical field is to treat conservatively so we decided to go with the brace. And I think the time span between being diagnosed and being fitted for the brace was extremely quick. Because yeah, they'd caught it before it got really bad but it was pretty late in the piece I'm told. And then before I knew it, I was lying half naked on a strange bed where they wrap you in plaster and shove a plastic thingy down your sternum so that you don't get cut open and then waiting for the plaster to dry and then the next thing I know this man is essentially ripping away at the at the plaster with a very sharp knife to take the mold off my body and have a brace ate and then I was in it 23 hours a day for two years.

Steph 10:04

Yeah, extremely similar experience to mine. How claustrophobic and terrifying is the whole experience of being fitted for a brace in itself.

Lauren 10:13

Well, I think because I had I never known anybody else who'd had a brace, I had no way to know what to expect. And it sort of didn't really hit me what was happening until I was strapped onto that bed. And it was all happening. And then I started to freak out a little bit. I mean, the plaster being put on wasn't too bad, but it was taking it off that I didn't like at all. Very scared.

Steph 10:37

I didn't enjoy just sort of waiting for it to I mean, not being able to move.

Lauren 10:43

It was pretty awful. Yeah, I must ask Who do you remember who your orthopedic surgeon was?

Steph 10:48

I've just remembered his name. It was Dr. Tuffley.

Lauren 10:51

oh sure sureI had Dr. askin and I feel like he Doctor Tuffley and Doctor Askin were like the two big Brisbane major orthopods. At the time, I feel like everyone I know who I've met who was diagnosed in Queensland went to one of those.

Steph 11:06

It was the person to go to, as far as I can tell, they did a pretty good job at it? There's not much to compare with

Lauren 11:12

Yes. I believe so. I mean, I still I still have to see an orthopedic surgeon here in Narm. And everyone knows Jef Askin when I tell them. Oh, my, my surgeon was Jeff Askin, Like, oh, sure. We all know him. So he's quite well, I mean, I think that's good.

Steph 11:26

It's not a bad thing. Hopefully. Yeah. Yeah. So just to catch everybody up as well. I was about 14, it was like summer holidays. And I was bending over the fridge. And my aunt was in the room and was like, What's wrong with your back? Because I was in my togs And I was like, What do you mean? And then mom's like, Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I was a late bloomer, I grew like, I didn't get my period till I was 14. So.

Lauren 11:54

Same. Wow, we really were very similar. Do you remember? But do you remember where your curvature was? Like, what part of the spine yours is mostly affected?

Steph 12:04

Um, well, I guess the biggest indicator was that I have a bit of a hump, which I still have my left shoulder, I believe. So yeah, another S curve. And sort of on the left hand side, that's just a big sort of mound where it sort of curves. Yes. Yeah. I mean, I was called a hunchback a few times by my own mum

Lauren 12:25

that was not very nice. Yeah.

Steph 12:29

And I also was offered the back brace as well, or surgery and decided to go with the back brace. When they sort of show you the different sort of colors of back braces, you can get. My My big question too, is which, which color did you choose?

Lauren 12:47

Well, here's the thing. I actually didn't get a choice. I didn't know they came in colors. I was just given a very plain, boring looking, whitish beige thing. And that's what i Whoa, I didn't even know that I could, I think because it was the type of brace I was getting. Mine was I mean, I don't I don't remember the different or there's different names for the different kinds of models and types that there are now I haven't kept up with what they are. But I think considering the type of brace I was being fitted for, I don't believe I had the option. I've seen photos of yours. You had a really cool, colorful one.

Steph 13:24

It was colorful. I wouldn't say cool. It was like the best option of a bunch of different like, very 90s very, like, you know, there was dinosaurs and, you know, cupcakes and stuff like that and all that. Alright, I'll pick this one. But yeah, later on, I had to get a new brace and I just picked white because it matches things better. Totally. But I think the one the type that I got was a TLSO or a Boston brace.

Lauren 13:53

A Boston brace. Yeah, I remember that phrase. I mind could have been the same. Did you with yours under your clothes or over?

Steph 14:00

I had to wear an undershirt. But I wore it under my clothes. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Same.

Lauren 14:04

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. But well, I regardless, I'd never got I never got an option to pick what it would look like it was just presented to me. I mean, unless my mother was told about it, and she just decided not to give me a choice. It's very possible. But yes, it was a very plain white looking thing.

Steph 14:21

Well, you know, it does match clothes a little bit better when there's not weird colors poking out.

Lauren 14:26

True. I mean, I think also to my my school uniform, particularly in summer was white and like a very pale like maroony check. So I feel like it was quite obvious if there was something colored underneath it. So that's maybe why we went with it. Yeah,

Steph 14:42

that's fair. So how was the experience of wearing the brace for you?

Lauren 14:47

Look, I was obviously very devastated when I got it because I didn't know anybody else who had to wear one. I was the only one of all my friends anyway. I didn't know either. I went to know Girl school and I also didn't know any other girls in school who had to wear one. You know, I think doctors do their best to try and convince you that it's all going to be very fine and normal. But even back then I sort of had the feeling that they were just trying to make me feel better, I knew that it was going to be difficult. I think the thing for me I found really hard at first living in Queensland is how hot it would get race and the effect that would have on my skin. So in winter, it was mostly fine, but like you had to wear an undershirt or a sink, I wear singlet most of the time, you could never put it on your bare skin. But even with my singlet on, if it was very hot, I would often get very itchy underneath, which was you know, torturous as anyone can imagine. And I think it was just just getting used to it took me a while and it is a very strange I it's difficult to I'm sure you can agree very difficult to explain what it felt like. But it was hot and cumbersome and awkward. I

Steph 16:03

don't know if you've experienced this. It gave me a little bit of indigestion as well. It kind of impacted my, my tummy. So if I had morning tea in the morning, I'd feel sick for a little really,

Lauren 16:12

no, I didn't have that I found it. It was more difficult for me to breathe deeply. Yeah, so doing sport. I mean, I didn't. I'm not a very sporty person as it is. But I found if I was trying to run or do anything with it on it really constricted my ability to take deep breaths. Yeah, yep. I was quite high up. to it. I'm wearing a brace. I know. And it was I mean, look, there was a one great thing about it is that, you know, you could just say I can't do that. My, I can't do that in a brace and my teachers would just have to be like, okay, but I also was a swimmer. So I was very lucky in that I was a natural swimmer. And Swimming was the one thing I could do without the brace on. So I would spend a lot of time in the pool. Yeah,

Steph 16:57

that was definitely a saving grace, particularly in those hot summers, like you want to swim or for hours. You can? Yes,

Lauren 17:04

exactly. Yes, the doctor was always like, you can spend as much time in the water as you like. Because if people who are listening don't know, obviously, there's no gravity in water or very little gravity in water. And that is very supportive of your spine. And it kind of helps it to to support your spinal column, I guess being in the water up to your neck at least.

Steph 17:25

Did you find that it impacted your mental health, especially during you know, high school? Oh,

Lauren 17:31

absolutely. Yeah, I think, look, I was lucky in many ways. I think I was lucky in that my year level of girls at school were actually more just very curious about my brace. I certainly wasn't, I was expecting in many ways to be bullied for it. But that kind of didn't happen for me, which was, which was a real relief. But people were very curious about it and wanted to touch me a lot. My friends love to, like punch me in the stomach because they thought that was hilarious. And I think also too, because I was developing at the time and I was developing an interest in boys and stuff. And I was cripplingly self deprecating, and, you know, it was a real dampener on my confidence and my ability to, you know, be social and talk to anybody that I didn't already know. I

Steph 18:22

completely relate. Yeah. Yeah, I did manage to have a boyfriend at the time, which I thought was pretty good. That's cool with the back brace. But you know, there was still the odd person that said, like later on our I wanted to date you, but I couldn't date the girl in the back brace. Pretty mean, thanks. That's probably pretty cool. Yeah, I didn't need to tell me that. Yeah, just keep that to yourself, bro. Yeah, but I don't know how yours was positioned. But the first brace I had there was a little sort of cut out gap where my one of my ribs was just try and guess which one of them in and that one out? Yes. And it was really sensitive around that area. And the boyfriend I had at the time kept trying to tickle me there. And I hate it so much.

Lauren 19:09

No, no, we don't touch that. That's very uncomfortable. Yeah,

Steph 19:14

did you find that sort of experience? Yeah, I

Lauren 19:18

had my cut out was on my right hand side so that my right rib could poke through. And I actually found that were underneath where it was cut out. I mean, the right hand side was the worst side because it went right up under my armpits. I push my shoulder upwards and push my right rib out. But um, I found that underneath where that gap was, there was just the way that the brace is made it would push onto my hip quite a lot. And I would actually find I get little like, I don't want to call them welts, but I'd get little bruises and welts essentially, that would sometimes become a scab underneath where yeah, my blood vessels were just under a lot of pressure. And I'd get little marks there, which were very sensitive. And I didn't like anybody touching me there.

Steph 20:06

No, no, not without consent,

Lauren 20:07

not without consent. But I'm sure you can appreciate this, when you have scoliosis, a lot of people see you naked all the time, because you have to take your clothes off in front of many different doctors and their medical students. So it's a very, I don't think it was handled particularly sensitively, back then. But at the same time, you know, they try and treat you like it's no big deal, but you are naked a lot.

Steph 20:31

very confronting at times and intimidating, especially getting an x ray done. I don't know if you had this experience as well. But having to get an x ray without the brace, you know, you're sort of naked in this cold room against the wall by myself, and then having to put it have an x ray with the brace as well. Just such a big rigmarole. And for a young girl developing sense of self and all of those things, and often dealt with males as well, male medical professionals, correct. All

Lauren 21:01

of my treating doctors were all male. I have no complaints against any of them. They were all very good at what they did. But yes, it is extremely confronting, and very difficult when you're a developing teenage girl. And also, I had to have a number of MRIs as well, because they wanted to check that it wasn't because of a tumor in my back. So also having to I didn't have a tumor. They thought I might have one. But they're not sure they weren't sure. So had to have a few of those. And I'd never had an MRI before my mother had to bribe me to get into the machine because it's also terrifying. And but now I get them all the time. It's no big deal at all.

Steph 21:45

Yeah, it's all very overwhelming as a young person.

You said you weren't you weren't for two years. So what was the sort of process of getting out of the breast and what happened then? God,

Lauren 22:03

you're really testing me. I believe I had to wean out of it. Yeah. And I think I went from 23 hours a day. And I think we had to do it really slowly. Because I don't know if you found this, I found I became a little bit dependent on the brace by the end, yeah, actually ended up being in it for two and a half years, they extended it a little bit longer just to make sure I'd finished growing. But I found by the end, when I was weaning, if I'd taken it off for longer than an hour or two, I would get quite a bit of lower back pain and like, an ache through my back because obviously it was used to being supported by something that wasn't there anymore. So I actually found weaning really difficult because it was very painful. But we went yeah, we had to take it an hour at a time. So 23 hours, 22 hours and so on. And I think it took me about three months to come out of it. Oh,

Steph 22:53

wow. Yeah, I had. I can imagine the pain that you just described. Yeah, because I think I went from 2023 and a half to 23 at first and then to getting four hours off. And yeah, by the end of that four hours, I was itching to get the brace back on because I was so sore. I was surprised that we're not given obviously it sounds like we both weren't given any sort of exercises to build up strength in you.

Lauren 23:20

Specifically No, we I was just told to go to a physiotherapist I wasn't given. I was just told to keep swimming and go to a physio I think that's

Steph 23:28

really all the advice I was given. Yeah. Which I guess makes sense.

Lauren 23:32

I mean, sure. Makes sense. But it's not particularly specific. Is it? No,

Steph 23:35

no because yeah, it was tricky and it felt conflicting because I was so keen to get out of the race and so excited to have a break but then I felt so sad that I needed wanted to get back on again I was the same

Lauren 23:48

I really had become quite dependent on it by the end and it made me very nervous to come out of it because I was worried that something bad would happen and I'd have to you know because I had come out of it too early or I'd have to get the surgery anyway and it was a very strange and I was very excited because I could wear any clothes I wanted to which was like what I mean look I was you know 16 and a half I was desperate just to be normal and I think my number one priority was looking cute so I was very excited to be able to shop again but yes I was a bit sad to come out of it

Steph 24:24

Yeah and like that's such a like a vulnerable time of trying to figure out who you are and your personal style and yeah attract a mate and so not being able to dress the same as everybody else and you know not feel fashionable or feel hot block around you right

Lauren 24:45

tricky. He was really hot and I also had I also have got fitted I had to get glasses as well at the same time and I also might here had started to become quite curly and difficult to manage and I just was just all shades of awkward looking like I was you know teenagers today are just so much better at knowing how to present themselves. I'd heard I was complete. I looked like a thumb, honestly, like, I mean, that's why this is why I got into comedy right lol because I had to develop my personality.

Steph 25:15

Well, I didn't have glasses, but I did have braces at the same time. So yeah, two out of three geek. Yeah. Yeah, definitely the geek in that way. And I did call myself brace girl and make up a superhero name for myself. So that's really lean in.

Lauren 25:30

That's really sweet. I don't think I did that. I think everyone. Oh, I think one of my friends used to call me abs of steel.

Steph 25:37

That's cute. Yeah. So obviously, you came out of the brace was surgery still discussed as an option after that?

Lauren 25:44

No. So they were very confident that they had gotten on top of it. I think my curvature went down from 41 degrees to like 27 or something like that, that's straight out of the brace. But for those who don't know, like that, that won't last like your it is normal that your curve will return. But the idea of a brace is just to stop it from getting worse while you're growing. So they were very happy with my results. But it wasn't until a few like a year ago or two years ago when my because I've also which is very common for people with scoliosis, but I've also developed degenerative disc disease. And when I was really suffering with some terrible pain, we had to reopen the conversation about potentially having the fusion now as an adult, which is a whole different kettle of fish when you're a teenager. Yeah.

Steph 26:33

So where are things out with that if you're happy to share?

Lauren 26:36

Look, it's a very long and not interesting story. But we did a lot of investigation with a lot of different, a lot of my different treating doctors. So a surgeon, an orthopedic surgeon, an orthopedic surgeon, osteopath, a physiotherapist and a scoliosis expert, like a whole bunch of people looked at my scans looked at me, I was very against the idea of having fusion surgery in my late 30s. I just, you know, the idea of that recovery and how invasive that is, was quite terrifying. And also, as an adult, you have no, it's more difficult to get care and to have support because the recovery is at least six weeks long. Yeah. Recovering for six weeks when you're 14 years old is fine, because you can do it. Well, I could have done it at my parents house while they were looking after me. But I can't do that as a 38 year old woman. Yeah, yeah. So I opted not to have it done. And I have two wonderful of a scoliosis, physio and an osteopath, who are very confident that we can manage it from here without surgery. And I have chosen to trust those people. And I'm on a program that helps me proactively manage pain, and it seems to be

Steph 27:46

working. So that's really good news. I hope that Thank

Lauren 27:49

you. Thank you. I hope so I hope it does.

Steph 27:53

I think the correction from my brace wasn't quite as significant as yours. I think it sort of stabilized it without it getting less pronounced. So they did suggest that maybe I look at surgery, but I was really against it as well, because I was quite scared about that whole process. And for people who don't know, fusion surgery, they sort of open up your back, it's probably better now than it was when we were younger, in terms of how extreme it is. But they insert rods to straighten the curve. It doesn't completely straighten.

Lauren 28:27

But no, it won't completely straighten it. No, yeah.

Steph 28:30

But it does correct the curve to a more manageable curve. And it is extreme surgery, it takes a lot of recovery and not just recovery for that six weeks, but also continuing, you have to basically learn how to walk again, because your hips aligned differently than it was before. There's a lot of rehabilitation that occurs. And I just didn't want to do that.

Lauren 28:51

No, and because the other thing about it is that there's no guarantee that having the fusion surgery will fix any or alleviate any pain that you experience. Some people have the fusion, and it may correct the curve, but they actually find that they're in more pain because of the rods and stuff. So it's a real like it's a it's a risk. And I think that's why they prefer you to have it done when you're very young. Yes, your body has a better chance of adapting than when you're much older like I am. Yeah,

Steph 29:18

I would feel the same way if if that question came up again. And luckily, I've I think I haven't had a checkup for a while now. But last time, which was just before I got pregnant, everything looks okay, not compressed. And this is probably nice content. But for anyone who's pregnant and has scoliosis in this sort of severity that Lauren and I have take your scans with you if you're thinking of getting an epidural, take your scan, take your films with you and make sure that the anesthetist has them because then they will get the needle in the right spot. Because that was something I was concerned about. And then the status First, I took along the scans to when I when I went into labor, and they said this was so much helpful helpful than me just trying. That's awesome.

Lauren 30:08

Yeah, I didn't even think about that. I mean, I remember, look, I don't have any children. But you know, that was a discussion that we had to have with my surgeon and, you know, surgeons of can be very black and white, bless them. And he wouldn't give me any sort of comment on how it might affect me if I was to get pregnant. But my wonderful osteopath, you know, did mention his like, Look, you are here, he likes to phrase my scoliosis is just being you've just got a unique, a unique body to the next person. And, you know, he was like, Pregnancy is a very, it's a very strange thing, in that no one truly understands what it might do to your body. You could get pregnant tomorrow and your pain might go away. Like, Yeah, who knows? You know, pregnancy hormones can do all sorts of things for the body.

Steph 30:56

That's true. Yeah, yeah, I was lucky with my pregnancy and delivery, that I don't think it affected it too much apart from that sense. But we don't need to go into the birth story of my life. But yeah, that can be a concern as well. Yes. Yeah. Um, is there anything else that is worth sharing about your scoliosis journey that we haven't touched on? Um,

Lauren 31:20

like you said, at the beginning, it's such a common affliction, and it does affect girls more than it does boys. And I've always joked that's because girls have the weight of the patriarchy on their shoulders. But, you know, I think because it is quite a common thing. But for most people, it's it's mild. A lot of folk forget, when you do have it more significantly, that it really can. It is like it is a disability in many ways, because it can bring with it lots of you know, chronic conditions and chronic pain, which is what I suffer from that is, it's an invisible thing, right? People don't truly understand what it's like until they because I can unlock yourself, I can walk and I'm very much able bodied. But I suffer quite significant amounts of pain. And it's learning to manage that, which is the hardest, I think.

Steph 32:14

Yeah, definitely. And I feel back pain is really tricky to from hearing what Michael, husband of the podcast has said in his medical world is that it's hard to actually target the cause of back pain and sometimes excess actually don't tell you anything. So that's right. Yeah, there's still a lot we don't know about where pain comes from, and what actually helps it and it's really just what works for you sometimes I think, yeah.

Lauren 32:38

My wonderful osteopath always says to me, he's like, I know that I'm meant to be a professional medical person here. But no, none of us know how pain works. Nobody truly understands it. It is a real mystery, and how it manifests fests in the body is no one can ever predict. And I think I always remember that, because, you know, he's always telling me remember, Usain Bolt has scoliosis, and he's the fastest man in the world. And it doesn't mean you can't do anything. You can do lots of things. You just have to be aware of it. That's

Steph 33:08

yeah, I guess it's like any sort of chronic illness and that you just have to make space to make up for it. And to make sure that you're doing everything you can for it so that you can continue with the goals you have. That's right. I need to carve out that time.

Lauren 33:21

Exactly. Yeah. Well,

Steph 33:24

thank you for sharing that. It's so funny how similar stories.

Lauren 33:29

It's a real it was a real time. And you know what, I, I still kick myself, because my parents when they moved out of my childhood home several years ago, now, my parents are very minimalist. They don't like clutter. They don't like to keep anything they don't have to keep in my mother had kept my back brace all that time. And I went home for the last time before they moved out. And mom pulled the brace out and said, you know, do you want to keep this and I kicking myself? Because I said, No, I was like, No, why would I want to keep that as a terrible reminder. But now that it's you know, several years have passed, and I've now gotten to the point where I can make jokes about my back brace. I wish that I had kept it because I would love to still have it.

Steph 34:12

You could you could include it in a comedy show could be well,

Lauren 34:15

I'm writing a show about it now. And I'm so mad that I don't have a physical prop.

Steph 34:23

Well, I'm sorry, I can't help you with mine. The first one I painted. That's cute. I don't know what I did with it. But the second one I smashed up in a very cathodic manner. Oh,

Lauren 34:36

wait, you had two braces?

Steph 34:38

Yes. Because I started to grow in that first year of wearing the brace and then when they checked me after a year, they said you still need the brace but we need to sort of adjust because Justin Yeah, to make it keep pushing it the way they want it to push. That makes

Lauren 34:53

sense. Yeah, I didn't. I didn't get another one. But I remember about halfway through mine. My straps at the back because obviously it's pushing inwards on your frame and all time so my frame had become smaller. And so um you know, it is difficult to eat in a brace unfortunately. So you know, it is normal for people who wear them sometimes to find that you do shrink a bit. So my straps at the back when I couldn't get them tight enough so they had to redo all of the back and put in these they put I remember they put in this this really like industrial strength Velcro that was really big and thick and I could and they had to shave off the kind of the last inch or two of each end of the brace so I could push it in tighter like a corset. And I remember when they put the new Velcro on it it was so thick and strong it just poked out

Steph 35:45

I can imagine that as well as just knowing exactly how you know eventually you just become so Pro are so probing it out without looking.

Lauren 35:56

Yeah, I didn't even have to think about it was like second nature. Yeah, that body memory

Steph 36:09

we have a few pieces of media about scoliosis to perhaps touch on as well, because scoliosis isn't something that's really very prominent in media. No, well, it's

Lauren 36:20

not interesting. It really is that,

Steph 36:22

unlike people don't look particularly gorgeous in back braces. No. But yeah, I thought we talked about what we have seen in the media. Usually it's kind of the it's like a brief joke or, you know, sort of comic relief character, quote, unquote geek character would wear a scoliosis back brace. Yes, I did find this little. I think it was a thread. But in Reddit, someone said whenever you see skeletons in movies, they never have scoliosis, which I was like, oh my god, it's

Lauren 36:53

so true. That is so true.

Steph 36:59

It's just like such a simple detail, but like it's absolutely true.

Lauren 37:02

We need more representation in the skeleton community. Yes, it's

Steph 37:06

Halloween. Come on. Let's get

Lauren 37:09

Okay. Probably not enough time now. But maybe next year we should organize to be scoliosis skeletons. As a costume. Oh, that

Steph 37:18

sounds amazing. We make some props. Yes. Cute. Love that. On the note of Halloween two. There is a tale that Linda Blair, who was the young girl in The Exorcist, who is possessed, had a back fracture from being on the exorcist and having to be sort of tossed around so much, which had developed into scoliosis. So just looking up actors who have scoliosis that came up and I thought, Oh, that's a real shame for Linda Blair.

Lauren 37:51

Yeah, I didn't even know that. Yeah, I knew that she complained of

Steph 37:55

some back issues. But I didn't realize it. It actually turned into a lifelong experience of scoliosis or that's

Lauren 38:05

xx a lot. Yeah,

Steph 38:06

I also came across Sarah Polley, who's a director and actress, she wrote a book recently called run toward the danger. And there's an excerpt in which I'll link where she talks about being diagnosed with scoliosis, not long after her mum passed away, and how that impacted her. And I think we're both very much relate to what she wrote in that. And now I'm really just gonna read the book. But some other actors, like you mentioned, Usain Bolt the long distance No. sprinter sprinter. Yeah, there's also McKenna Grace Shailene Woodley and Chloe seven years as well,

Lauren 38:41

yes. And this might be a little bit niche if you're but for the Ozzy listeners, Sophie Faulkner, who was a pretty well known TV presented, I think she was on Sale of the Century for times. Yeah, she had scoliosis. She had the fusion surgery when she was a teenager. And I remember my mother telling me about that. It was in a brace to make me feel better. Because Sophie Faulkner is like, stunning. She's a beautiful woman. Yeah. And

Steph 39:10

that's really good to see. Because, you know, I was always told, Well, if you don't get the surgery, you're what you won't be able to come a dancer or model. It's like, well, I don't think I'm not going anywhere. No,

Lauren 39:20

I don't think that was going to be my pathway.

Steph 39:25

Right? That isn't true. Yes. But one piece of media that I came across when I was first diagnosed because the orthopedic surgeon actually suggested I engage with it was the duty Bluebook Dini, which was written in 1973. Have you come across this book?

Lauren 39:40

I have not. I mean, I've read a lot of Judy Blume but I was not my doctor did not recommend this.

Steph 39:49

I think he just had it in his room like for the kids or the teenage makes sense. I mean, but Dini is a book God blooms that you know, an icon but this particular book was about a 13 year old girl. Her mum is really determined for her to become a model. And then she is diagnosed with scoliosis and prescribed a back brace to wear for the next four years. Four years. Whoa, yeah. But she was diagnosed a little bit earlier than us obviously. And I guess it's a sort of a novel about how she sort of comes to terms with that finds her peace with the idea of not becoming a model, but her mum sort of struggling with that. And there's a few sort of themes like there's it's been a long time since I've read it, but apparently ableism is briefly touched on when her guidance counselor recommends that Danny take the quote unquote special bus to school because she qualifies. She doesn't want to take the special bus because she doesn't see herself as requiring that. But the when you sort of look up Dini, it's really known as a controversial book, because Dini talks about masturbation in it, but that's Judy Blume

Lauren 40:59

was all about the masturbation storylines. And that's why we love it. You can have scoliosis and masturbate, that's completely fine.

Steph 41:09

And your half hour break.

Lauren 41:12

It is difficult to get down there when you're wearing it.

Steph 41:17

But yeah, like she talks about touching a special place as a comfort for what she's going through, which I think is really good representation of masturbation.

Lauren 41:26

I think so too. I think so too.

Steph 41:28

But of course, people did not love it for that reason.

Lauren 41:31

Well, maybe again, this could be another moment where I'm realizing my mother knew about this, but wouldn't tell me because she didn't want me to know about masturbation. She was probably trying to hide it from me. Possibly. Yeah, it was a bit of a running theme. Unfortunately for me.

Steph 41:46

Yes, the boomer generation. So yeah, there's one piece of media, which, you know, was pretty good considering there wasn't much out there. And I quite liked Judy Blume. Yes, absolutely. The other film that I came across quite a few years ago is called looking for Mr. Goodbar, which stars Diane Keaton. And it's a crime drama, which was released in 1977, which is based on a novel by Judith Rosner. Okay. Have you heard of this movie at all?

Lauren 42:13

No, I think what I'm really realizing in this discussion we're having is that one of my coping mechanisms of having Scully was to actively not engage with things that we're about it because I think, even though I think now as an adult representation is important to me and makes me feel more seen. I think, as a teenager, I wanted to forget, I wanted to forget that I had it. I didn't want to feel reminded that I had it. So anytime someone would bring up have you seen this? Have you read this? I would say no. And I will probably not seek it out either. Yeah,

Steph 42:46

that's completely reasonable and fair, and also a blessing because this film is difficult to watch and remit anywhere, which is great, which is a blessing.

Lauren 42:59

So how does the Scully come into the narrative? So

Steph 43:02

Diane Keaton's character, Teresa is a young school teacher in Chicago. And she's having her sexual awakening while searching for excitement outside of very ordered life. So there's sort of a narrative that she's like, got a double life because she's a teacher of the deaf. But at night, she goes out and she

Lauren 43:23

has sex. God forbid, oh, my God.

Steph 43:27

You handle casual sex too. And drugs are sometimes good she. But there's also a backstory that she has quite severe body image issues following childhood surgery for scoliosis that left a large scar on her back, she also finds out that her scoliosis is congenital, which it often is, and that aren't had the same condition. And as a result died by suicide. Oh, so Teresa is reluctant to have children of her own for the same reason. So they're already not off to a great start. No, we're

Lauren 44:01

not feeling particularly uplifted by this story.

Steph 44:04

It's already quite an ableist take in that, you know, having scoliosis is so detrimental. And you know, it does have a significant impact, but that it led to her aren't ending her life and not wanting to pass that on. There's, you know, there's just themes that it's just not the greatest message,

Lauren 44:23

I guess. Oh, goodness.

Steph 44:27

But there's more.

Lauren 44:27

I mean, look, just in case anyone may have scoliosis, or been diagnosed recently, and as you know, thinking, it's a really terrible thing. It's really not. It's very manageable. You don't have to go down Diane Keaton. But that way, you know,

Steph 44:41

you're and obviously 1977 was a very, not very inclusive time and a lot of

Lauren 44:48

ways but no, yeah, that doesn't know a lot back then. No,

Steph 44:51

but you can live a very full, very amazing life with scoliosis. Yes, you can. But just to finish up the story of this maybe just in case you're thinking about watching it. It doesn't end. Well. You kidding. So she I guess she has a string of lovers who often turn out to be quite abusive or controlling. But then she does end up dating or having sex with a man played by Tom Berenger, Gary, who is actually gay, but then lies to Theresa saying that he has a pregnant wife. And then when Gary is unable to get it off, He sniffs a Papa. I don't even know what that is. And Teresa tells him that it's okay if they don't have sex, which Gary misinterprets as questioning his sexuality, who then content warning, Gary attacks her rapes her and then stabs her repeatedly killing her? What? Yeah, don't watch this. Watch. It's it's a big pivot. And I think it's a common sort of message and films of this time or and future of, you know, blame victim blaming sex Shamy don't have sex with you. Yeah. Because you will get murdered. And you know, she sort of put herself in that situation sort of thing. So yeah, I wouldn't record

Lauren 46:09

Wow. I mean, what a mess it and I did

Steph 46:12

try and watch it, but I couldn't get through it. It was really hard to watch. And pretty good tutus.

Lauren 46:18

That's, that's a film. I'm glad I don't know about them.

Steph 46:22

I'm sorry. You know about it. Well, I

Lauren 46:24

know about it. Now. Am I going to do a deep dive later on it? Probably.

Steph 46:30

What's it called again? Looking for Mr. Goodbar. And it's actually based on a novel which is based on an actual murder of a teacher in the 70s. It

Lauren 46:39

sounds so jaunty though the title sounds so like, it sounds like it's from Wind in the Willows. Yeah, yeah. I don't

Steph 46:47

know what the reference is. Know who Mr. Goodbye is. But I don't know if I can.

Lauren 46:53

No, I don't think it's worth finding out. Yeah.

Steph 46:56

There was also a film that you mentioned as well, The House Bunny. Yes.

Lauren 47:01

Yes. Look, I haven't seen The House Bunny in a while. But full disclosure I have. I think I still am in a bit of that era. But I went through a real time, about a decade ago when I loved The Girls Next Door, also known as the girls of the Playboy Mansion, which is a terrible reality, but also excellent reality show about the three women who were dating Hugh Hefner in the early 2000s. And it is quite I mean, look, when you know the backs story of what was actually going on, it is not so good. But it was a kitschy, ridiculous, you know, MTV style reality show that I really loved for some reason, goes against all my feminist values. But despite that, I just loved it. And when they did the show, The House Bunny the film was written kind of based off of one of the girls on the show. And Anna Anna Faris plays her in the film. And essentially if you haven't seen it before she she sent to sorority of sorts of misfits and one of the girls was back brace because obviously, only dweebs were back braces, not the not the not the Alpha Delta Pi or whatever sorority This is like the Zed I can't remember the sorority name. Gamma adopts the gamma, gamma fee or whatever and She adopts these girls and basically gives them makeovers and stuff. Look, it does sound awfully trite but it actually does have a pretty nice message at the end which is makes it a bit more palatable. But yes, the bunch of misfits that Anna Faris comes across our one is teen pregnancy one doesn't speak one wears a back brace there's, you know, the zero Mako crew, Girl and The Girl Yeah, yeah. So it's, it's it is what I do like about it, though, is that it's not like at the end. And again, I don't remember the character names forgive me, but there's no attempt to remove the back brace the girl who wears it, she doesn't come out of the makeover being like, Oh my God, I've miraculously have a straight spine because that's not how science works. But what she does do is she decorates her her brace and decrypts it with flowers and pretty colors and ribbons and things that make her feel good. And I thought that's a nice way to frame it. So she sort of takes back the the power of the brace.

Steph 49:28

Yeah, and I think there's like a photoshoot where she looks hot in the brace. Yes, she does. Yeah. One scene though you might might have forgotten is she's explained to Anna Faris his character that she could have had the brace off years ago, but she feels doesn't feel comfortable and she's really nervous about what her spine might do when it comes out, which is very related to RIT very relatable scene. Yep. And also feels like yeah, and is like you're kind of hiding behind your race. You need to like embrace yourself and then she goes running to catch up with the boy that she's got a crush on, and she breaks out with the brace.

Lauren 50:06

Yes, that is true. I mean, I think you'd want to give that a pass because it p though because it's campy, and it is a nod to another film. Yeah, exactly a very obvious nod to another film. But yes, it's I mean, there's there's an element of that of problematic there, but, but

Steph 50:22

there's also a positive message in that you totally it's relatable to feel nervous about letting go of something that has been passed around you. Really? Yeah, absolutely. And I love that film from my name. I

Lauren 50:35

do too. I do too. And you know what describing it again, makes me go actually, House Bunny is a very good movie, despite what appearances you know what people may think. It actually is quite well written. And I really like Anna Faris, as a as an actor. I

Steph 50:49

think she does. She does a great job. So yeah, definitely. Yeah. So there's also I guess the big elephant in the room or hunchback room is the Hunchback of Notre DOM. Yes. Like when I think of that, I think of the Disney film because I haven't really watched the original. No, but there's a lot of disabled tropes in it. I do a brief like, dive into it on my tic toc page about how it's sort of causing murder is seen as like lesser than, you know, he doesn't just have a hunchback and scoliosis. He also has, you know, some facial differences as well. But there's a lot of, you know, negative treatment of him. And also, yeah, seeing disability as a monster disability

Lauren 51:32

as Yes, I was gonna say he's very much constructed to be almost monster like, yeah, yeah, in many ways. Although I do find that obviously, his treatment by Frollo is, is almost indicative of the way that those who live with a disability can be mistreated. Yeah, definitely. But yes, it's, um, it's, I'm, Listen, I'm not a huge Disney person. I don't watch Disney films. But I saw the hunchback years ago when it came out. But I'm not a Disney adult. I don't watch that sort of stuff now. But I saw the musical of it. Or I've seen recordings of the musical. And yeah, it's there's something about watching someone wear prosthetics to make them appear a certain way that yeah, it's, there's a, there's a lot of gray area there, I

Steph 52:20

think. Yeah, there's a little bit of EQ that comes with it. There's a bit of EQ, yes. But then like, how do you tell the tale? Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And they are doing a remake of this one? I don't know when, but I just think that's about it. Like, do we really need this title? We need

Lauren 52:36

another one. Do we need another one? I'm interested. Look, I guess my answer to that question would be well, how are they going to frame it, but we won't know until they do it?

Steph 52:46

Yeah. But that seems to be Disney's MRO at the moment is just remake everything, everything, regardless of whether it's a good idea or not.

Lauren 52:55

We're all in our, you know, we're all in our nostalgic era. So everyone just forgets everything that they remember from their

Steph 53:02

childhood, I guess. And it's just not enough to just rewatch the thing from your childhood.

Lauren 53:06

Correct. It's not enough. You need more and more, more,

Steph 53:09

more. There was just one last film that I came across, which I have not watched because it looks terrible, frankly. It's called Kiss Me and it was released in 2014. And it was directed by Jeff Probst from from survivor. Yeah, so there you go. The reviews were not very good. Some of them were like, what how did you let Jeff post direct?

Lauren 53:31

How do you speak about Jeff probes? Like, I

Steph 53:34

have to admit I haven't watched?

Lauren 53:35

I don't really watch it either. I'm I don't really know much about Jeff.

Steph 53:39

I know he's know people mostly like him. That's what I

Lauren 53:43

heard. Wasn't there a bit of controversy with him recently that turns a dick behind the scenes, but also maybe I'm thinking of someone else. So there's so many who knows television, but it could be

Steph 53:56

well, I will I will not speak any more about Jeff probes. But the film is a coming of age story of two young think teenage friends, one of which is diagnosed with scoliosis and wears a back brace and seems to be sort of questioning her sexuality. There's like a an affair with a married man and there's a kiss which is you know, in the title by Yes. By their family, and it just seems like just a trash film with with a lot of queerbaiting in it. That doesn't go anywhere. Gotcha. So, yeah, maybe it's good. Maybe someone will like it, but it does like yeah, I'm not gonna waste time in that.

Lauren 54:34

I think just based on that very brief synopsis. I don't think it's something I would be actively seeking out to watch

Steph 54:41

and I think it's not like on a Sunday afternoon like it's time to watch kiss me the 2014 film. Jeff Probst it's

Lauren 54:48

time to settle in and watch this excellent movie by someone who may or may not be a dick from

Steph 55:02

Was there anything else that you came across before we jump into the film I'm very excited to talk about. I

Lauren 55:09

mean not in in media person, per se, but I just want to give a little shout out to the toy industry for releasing a skipper doll who has a back brace. I think that is really lovely. And I wish that they had something like that when I was a kid. Even though at 14 I was probably too old for Barbies, but just knowing that it existed, I think is a really great move from Mattel. Yeah,

Steph 55:35

I'm so stoked for that, too. I've, every time I go into toy shop, I look for it thinking oh, is it gonna be there? But it's very hard.

Lauren 55:42

I haven't lost. I was gonna say I haven't found it either. I'm wondering if I should still like maybe order one online. Yeah, but in my house. Just

Steph 55:49

be like it was me. Yeah, I love that. I love that. It's not something like Mattel are very much being more inclusive with their Barbies, which have been doing for years now. But it's one of those things that that not a lot of people can relate to. So really, yeah, it's awesome. Yeah.

Lauren 56:04

Yeah. It's awesome. I'd love to see it. Yes.

Steph 56:06

Well, let's talk about the best depiction, I think. Someone's scoliosis in a back brace, which is Romy and Michele's high school reunion from 1997. Tell me about your experiences of this film experience.

Lauren 56:21

Oh, man, look, I was a friends fan from the jump. So I knew Lisa Cujo. And I was very hyper aware of the film when it came out. It was very heavily marketed. I think when we were teenagers. I wasn't allowed to watch it at first. I remember my cousin who was a good nine or 10 years older than me was coming over to sort of stay with us while my parents went away. And she was going to take me to go see it. And we weren't going to tell my mum and dad. Oh, it'll be fine. I'll take you to see it. And then I think I can't remember what happened. But we didn't end up being able to go because my parents came home early. How dare they. And I know but I eventually did get to see it. And I loved it. I still love it. I still love it to this day. I think it's an excellent film. And I think it was the first time because what year did it come out? I think it was in I think by then I was just what you did? It was 1997

Steph 57:15

Okay, it was in grade six. I think I was Yeah, yeah.

Lauren 57:19

I was in year eight, I think. So I hadn't yet. I think I'd just gone into my back brace. So it was the first time that I really felt comfortable, I guess, engaging with a piece of media about back braces and scoliosis and all of my friends. When I saw it, I saw it with friends, all of my friends and that first scene where you see her in the schoolyard wearing her back brace they all were like poking me. And we're like, oh my god, she's got a back brace like Yeah, and I was like, oh my god, I'm just like, Lisa

Steph 57:53

did you know that that like Was that a surprise when that you didn't know that? That was? I didn't know.

Lauren 57:57

No, I'd had no idea because it wasn't really marketed as part of the film was it it was sort of a surprise. But obviously the biggest difference being that at least Cujo is character wears a metal brace, which was very Aedes and she was a thoracic brace, which goes up to her neck,

Steph 58:13

which I think I usually call a Milwaukee brace, Milwaukee brace.

Lauren 58:16

And that's basically if your curve is in your thoracic spine or up towards your cervical spine, you have to wear a neck brace to keep your neck in place. But you and I, by the sounds of it both wore a lumbar spine. Yeah, that's correct. So no neck brace for us. But yeah, I just look, I was just thrilled that someone that I loved so much from television, was playing a character that were a brace. That was very cool. Yeah.

Steph 58:40

I can imagine how unexpected and how exciting that would have been. Yeah, because I don't think I wasn't allowed to watch Friends. I was allowed to watch The Simpsons either. But we were allowed to watch Seinfeld. My parents were thinking, maybe it was just that they preferred other shows to friends. Maybe but I knew her from friends. And thought she was just so hilarious. I think we got it out from the video shop one night during a movie night. And I can't I actually can't remember if I were rice. I think I had started wearing the brace before I watched it because I feel like I knew she bought a back brace. Maybe I'd read about it or something I don't know. But it definitely shaped my sense of humor, along with clueless as well, which was kind of the beginning of some of those female led comedies. I think I was reading. There's a really good article, an oral history of Romy Michele's high school reunion, which is just a delight to read.

Lauren 59:38

Oh my God, I need to read that. Yeah, it's

Steph 59:40

so good. It's just so fun to read. And there was saying like if clueless hadn't been so successful, then this film probably wouldn't have been released because similar to what's happening with Barbie and like Taylor Swift eras, people cottoned on that hey, women like to go to the films.

Lauren 59:58

Things we've been saying and money. Oh my goodness.

Steph 1:00:02

But yeah, it was so good to see, I feel like the use of the back brace is such that it's a comedic device and she's sort of bullied through it. But it's also because it's such a positive message in the film. It's not done in a like a trippy way. I feel like I agree, it sort of works and going, just be yourself. And just because you have to wear this thing, or you have this diagnosis doesn't mean you can't be a fabulous person. That's

Lauren 1:00:29

right. And I think even now, because I think it's one of those films that has really stood the test of time. It's got a real cult following kind of thing. And it's a film that I would sit down and watch any day of the week and one of my best friends. One of her favorite things to say to me to this day is because we actually went to our combined birthday party as Romy and Michele appropriate. But actually, I didn't go we I went as Romi. And she was Michelle because she's the Jewish one. So we thought that was more appropriate, because we weren't sure how to, you know who's going to be who, but she loves to say to me all the time, and she'll say, It wasn't your fault. You had scoliosis

Steph 1:01:12

What a bitch taking your hamburger.

Lauren 1:01:13

I want a hamburger. I mean, what was that?

Steph 1:01:17

Sorry, quotable. So quote, I remember lying in the sick room once in high school, and just like going through the film in my head, because it was just like, so comforting. And it's actually not that many times.

Lauren 1:01:29

I agree. Yeah, it was a real. I mean, I'm trying to think of my timelines here, because, you know, all of my teenagehood tends to blend into one. But, you know, it didn't really hit me when I was that young. How much of an impact, a positive impact it would have on me as a fellow scoliosis sufferer to see something like that in a very popular very well known film,

Steph 1:01:54

huh? Yeah, yeah, definitely. And the fact that

Lauren 1:01:57

Michelle isn't a dweeb, like she isn't, I mean, yeah, she's bullied in high school for the brace and stuff. But like, when when they get older and stuff, they're very much, you know, fun California girls who are having a great time together and have a great friendship and, you know, living their best lives. I think that really meant something to

Steph 1:02:17

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And it's sort of, I love that she wasn't a dweeb, but they didn't really fit in, in high snow and correct the sort of floaters and they just really had each other they didn't really weren't really part of a group, which is very much my experience of high school to like, if I am actually yeah, if I was in a group, it was more than nerdy group, which I guess they connect with most because it sounds like like Heather and Sandy up kind of part of that nerdy group. Yeah, but yeah, it was sort of not really fitting in anywhere, and also like marching to the beat of their own drum and dressing the way they wanted to dress and being interested in things that didn't necessarily fit everybody else's. But just doing it anyway.

Lauren 1:02:55

That's right. And I think that also too, they didn't change the way that Lisa Coudray looked to make her look worse, like Yeah, because I think that sometimes with characters or people in the media who are portrayed as having, you know, either something, whether it be scoliosis, or another affliction of the back or whatever, they can sometimes, you know, they're also made to seem not, I don't want to say ugly, but that they're given, you know, other physical characteristics that make them look worse, that have nothing to do with the fact that they have a twisty spine. And I liked that Michelle's character, she's still herself. She's still the same girl she turns into as an adult. She hasn't changed her personality because she wore a back brace. No, he just has a brace on that's that she still

Steph 1:03:40

dresses with how she wants to do business that she would anyway. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Before we keep chatting, I just want to quickly go through the plot so people know what we're talking about. Remy Michelle was written by Robin Schiff, who based it on a play called ladies room. And originally the characters were me. Michelle was sort of kind of like the Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Yes. Yeah. Sort of came in as like sort of comic relief in between scenes and commented on what was going on and had, like, just had their friendship like all of the quotes that came out like Oh, my God, I hate throwing up in public. Oh, me too, like a sound thing. And they're just soulmates. So it would have been really fun to see the original play, I think so David Merck and actually directed it who was an executive producer on The Simpsons? Oh, yep. Which kind of explains why the humor is quite unique and hilarious, I think. But basically the plot is that are 228 year old Best Friends roomy white and Michelle Weinberger who live together in an apartment in Venice, Los Angeles, California. They are single, unambitious. Enjoy a casual lifestyle of slacking mocking TV and movies and elaborate amateur dressmaking.

Lauren 1:04:51

Honestly, they have my dream life.

Steph 1:04:53

Oh my god, I'd love like can you imagine being able to afford an apartment? You wouldn't know You know way while working roomie encounters a former classmate from high school, Heather Mooney played by Janeane Garofalo, who I was obsessed with from this movie.

Lauren 1:05:09

I love gender. So funny. I used to get told I reminded people of her which was like the highest compliment anyway. This is back when I used to dye my hair this terrible shade of black which does not suit me at all suits her very much but did not suit me.

Steph 1:05:24

I'm trying to picture that right. So she was a sort of rebellious troubled girl who smoked cigarettes in school is now a businesswoman having invented the paper for a special type of cigarette the quick burning paper, who informs Romeo about their upcoming 10 year high school reunion in Tucson, Arizona. So they sort of go back into the past and how they were sort of bullied by the a group which was a small group of popular yet Mean Girls, led by cheerleader Christy musters who humiliated them repeatedly. And Romi had a crush on Christie's boyfriend, Billy Christiansen,

Lauren 1:05:58

both of whom Billy Christiansen and the actress who played Christie's masters are Masterson,

Steph 1:06:04

well, masters.

Lauren 1:06:06

Both of them had cameos in friends. Oh, I did not know that. That's really Christiansen played fun. Bobby and Christie McMasters has a one episode arc where she plays the new girlfriend of Ross

Steph 1:06:21

of cool, yeah, that tends to be a flea. So there's like some quite touching flashbacks where they was quite humiliated from school. But you know, Romi is really concerned that, you know, she wants to make a good impression on her classmates. And she feels like they're not good enough. Whereas Michelle is saying I thought High School was great. And I feel like I left now is great. Yeah, but Romi is determined to lead her and Michelle into making some last ditch attempts to improve themselves, like lose weight, get good boyfriends and jobs, but it doesn't quite work out. So instead, they decide to borrow an expensive car. And if anyone needs to make a call, they've got phones, dress up in business suits and say that they become business women. Once they figure out they need to decide what they do as a business. They determine that they invented post it notes. Carnegie, no one's gonna know who did that. As they discussed the details of their life, it escalates into an argument about their friendship, and they decide to go their separate ways once they reached the reunion. Now, I don't want to continue on because if you haven't seen the film, I think it's better not knowing sort of what happens next.

Lauren 1:07:31

I think that's that's all you need to know. But you also need to know that Lisa, Cujo delivers one of the best monologues in a film about glue that I've ever listened to, which I kind of know off by heart. I love it so much, but I it's just such a great. Well, ordinarily, when you make glue, first you need to thermoset your resin. It's just so good.

Steph 1:07:54

And then you mix them a peroxide, which is just

Lauren 1:07:57

really a fancy schmancy name for any simple oxygenated adhesive, right. So can I just say my other favorite quote that I don't know why this just tickles me. Every time I see the scene, it's the one with it in the gym. And she says, Michelle, remember when we were in high school and they would give you those stupid, you know, there's math problems about it. She's like, Oh, I know. You know, like, this guy is going to town in this current is going x miles and the rowboat is going some other miles. How long does it take him to get to town? And it's like, who cares? He wants to go to town with a guy who drives a robot.

Steph 1:08:38

I just think she's so funny. Like, as I said, I wasn't into friends. I was prevented from it. But if you just take Lisa Couture's comedic talents from this film alone,

Lauren 1:08:51

it's just exceptional. It's fantastic. I think I completely blended that quote, but I'm sure if you know, the talking.

Steph 1:09:00

And I guess, you know, the whole purpose of the film is such a it's quite unlike many films, like there is some love stories within it, but it's really about their friendship and how important that is. And, you know, once the Marian ones the Verda. And oh, I have to also say that they talked to art Frey, who was the actual inventor of post its Oh, in that deep dive. Oh, no, I think it might have been a different article, which I'll link and he said what she said about glue is actually incorrect. Very disappointed.

Lauren 1:09:32

That is disappointing. That to be correct. That's a shame.

Steph 1:09:36

But just a couple of details as well. It's really interesting reading the oral history, there was actually a lot of rewrites and re edits as it didn't land quite as well with test audiences as they expected. And I think maybe the humor was lost on some EBIT. Jen has been it's a perfect film. It is and I think a lot of like, when you read back, everyone sort of agreed it was a perfect film by the end of it but As a result of having to do that it didn't get as much promotion as it was originally going to. But which they were really banking on because Mira Sorvino just won an Oscar for mighty Aphrodite. And also Lisa was getting quite popular from France. So they thought this was gonna

Lauren 1:10:15

be a hit, but it didn't. It made enough money but it wasn't fair. Yeah, yeah.

Steph 1:10:21

But also Lisa luda is played by Elaine Hendrix. Who is the stepmom in Parent Trap. Yes, she is correct. I can't believe I didn't pick up on. She's,

Lauren 1:10:30

she's in so many films. She's in so much stuff.

Steph 1:10:35

She's this one of those like 90s actresses that went everywhere. And she pops

Lauren 1:10:38

up on in some pretty iconic things to love that for her

Steph 1:10:42

girl in. Also, I found this really interesting. Julia Campbell, who played Christie actually did have scoliosis and wore the same kind of brace that Michelle was. And she had surgery. So going through that scene was actually really hard for her and reminding her what how she would be bullied and having to be the bully was really difficult. And she went through a lot of emotions to get there, which is like really sweet. That's really sweet. Yeah, no

Lauren 1:11:13

idea could Yeah. And

Steph 1:11:14

then I'm not sure if it was intentional, or it was made that way. But it makes me sort of think well, there's some lived experience. Yes. So I love that. Yeah. I just wanted to comment on what the writer Robbins said about the scoliosis depiction because I thought that was interesting, because she was asked by someone with scoliosis, and Robin said that she wanted something that was visual that they would pick on Michelle for and her best friend in junior high had scoliosis. And Robin remembers that she wore a back brace and how horrible it was when you're that age to wear a back brace. Kids don't like people who are different. So that's why she thought of it. And she also pointed out which is validating for us that Romeo Michelle aren't nerds Exactly. She thinks of them as different sort of unconventional outcasts. So the scoliosis felt like a natural choice for a movie outcast, because the character had to experience some cruelty. And the source of the cruelty had to be communicated quickly on screen, and using sort of a visual medium to convey what the story was. Yes. So yeah, that's kind of why she chose the back brace in there, which is, you don't often get that sort of explanation from directors, especially in movies that long ago, well,

Lauren 1:12:25

usually up until then a lot of scoliosis representation was just tokenistic, right to make it look dweeby or whatever. And I know that I said before, you know, scoliosis is otherwise an invisible disease, except when you wear a back brace. And the director is like, the rider is right. Like, it is such an immediate visual thing. And you know that you can, you know, yeah, it's a real good jumping off point. Yeah.

Steph 1:12:49

And I think it sort of had the potential to be a joker or a trophy thing that sort of makes fun of the person where Yeah, yeah, but I feel like the reflection of that flashback. And like that line, you couldn't help if you had scoliosis. It's just extremely like, it just sort of nails it. Yeah, you can't help it if you're a family.

Lauren 1:13:09

And like I said, before, like she, they do acknowledge it, but it doesn't become this. It doesn't become a big, big thing that her whole character hinges on. It's just part of her journey. It's just one step of her becoming who she is. And

Steph 1:13:26

I think it's funny in that when they go to the high school reunion, and one of the A team says, look, it's the back brace, girl high back brace girl. It's like they can't think of anything else to sort of criticize her over so they just point out the one thing they kind of remember about her and yeah, response is just shut up.

Lauren 1:13:47

Yeah, totally. Like, I've got a bendy spine like, cool. Like you got me.

Steph 1:13:52

You guys got fat.

Lauren 1:13:56

We're not the ones who got fat, we're pregnant. I hope your babies look like monkeys.

Steph 1:14:13

How did you sort of feel the film kind of encapsulated that experience of high school and going back to your high school reunion and having to go back there?

Lauren 1:14:23

Look, I think for me, it's a very Americanized film, right? It's very American. And I certainly there are elements of it that I couldn't relate to because I went to a very conservative Christian School in Brisbane. But what I think how it made me feel is that I had a best friend in high school who very much we stuck together. And that was and she was very, almost like protective of me when I had the brace on. I mean, a lot of my friends were quite protective of me and I think you can see that reflected in the character of Rumi and that that was something I definitely take away from that. I went to my My own school high school reunion. I mean, I couldn't make the 20 year reunion. Yes, I'm that old. Unfortunately, I would have liked to go, I went to my 10 year reunion. But like I said, I was really lucky, I didn't really get I wasn't picked on for for my back brace, a lot of the girls were very just curious about it. So I didn't, I didn't relate to it in that way, because I hadn't been treated that way. But I certainly wasn't as cool as those two appeared to be anyway,

Steph 1:15:26

I absolutely did not feel cool in any way. And you know, sort of wanted to emulate these girls because they didn't fit in, like I didn't fit in. And they didn't try to be anything other than what they were. And when they did try it failed spectacularly when they tried to be something different. And then when they come back as themselves, it's like really cathartic in that line to Christie saying we don't give a flying fuck what you think.

Lauren 1:15:50

It's like, it's beautiful.

Steph 1:15:54

Yeah, and I didn't go to my 10 year reunion I was going to but my sort of equivalent of Rumi as the Michelle in the friendship, and I we'd had some time apart as friends. And then we'd kind of reconnected. So we're like, why don't we just have our own reunion, go to the pub. And that's what

Lauren 1:16:10

we do. Oh, that's lovely. So that's perfect.

Steph 1:16:13

I think having a friend to sort of share those odd interests with you. That weird sense of humor or not really fitting in really, you know, helps you through. Yes. And without those, where would we be?

Lauren 1:16:25

Yeah, that's right. I think you can't really put a not a price, but you can't really put a price on how important it is to have at least one person around you who, you know, when you're going through something like that you do. When you're a teenager, the way you look is important to you. And you look different when you wear a brace and having a friend or friends who aren't bothered by that means something. Yeah,

Steph 1:16:48

exactly. And except you exactly who you are, and still seeing you as who you are. That's right. One last thing I love about the film is how there's sort of that undercurrent that there's always someone who's made someone else's life hell in high schools. Yes. Like we're all under developed teenagers trying to figure out who we are. And no one was innocent, because we're all flawed.

Lauren 1:17:09

100%, which I think is a very true, true message. Because I, you know, I often would look back on on my time in high school thinking I was such a dweeb. Like, I was the back brace girl, like I, you know, wasn't cool, or didn't have any power kind of thing. But it does kind of remind you actually, there was probably another person looking at me and thinking, you know, I wasn't such a dweeb and wanting perhaps wanting to be my friend. I don't know. I don't know, for sure. But it's very possible.

Steph 1:17:39

Yeah. You just don't know what's going through everybody's head, especially in that very vulnerable time where everyone's got their own stuff going on. And everyone is going through puberty. Yes. All the things that come with that. We're

Lauren 1:17:51

all just silly little chickens with our heads cut off. We have no idea what we're doing.

Steph 1:17:57

Yeah. Just trying to get through. That's right. Anything else you want to mention about Romy and Michele?

Lauren 1:18:03

I just wish I mean, I should send you a photo of me and my friend dressed up as them at our birthday. Yes. That was pretty great. Although my Romi dress was for some reason, my beauty. Our mutual friend made our costumes for us, bless her. And for some reason, my costume turned out to be very very skimpy. I don't know if we just didn't get enough material, but it just covered my bum thank goodness, but I think I still have it somewhere. I wonder if I could still wear it. I doubt it. But I Yeah, it's so great. I'll see if I can dredge up a photo for you. Yes,

Steph 1:18:33

please. I guess it's also good to note that Trixie and Katya Yes. A musical version of did they? Miss I believe or no, there is a musical version

Lauren 1:18:46

of Rumi Michels. Yes. There is a musical version. Yes. Maybe

Steph 1:18:49

they starred in it or did one together? Definitely have.

Lauren 1:18:54

I could be really wrong here. But I believe the Romy and Michele musical is being still kind of has gone back into development. And it's very possible that the first I feel like the first run of it did not go as well as they thought it might. And then because I'd heard about it through the grapevine, and I feel like it took a couple of guys for them to get it on its feet. So it first came out in 2017 in Seattle did like a what's called an out of town tryout or sort of where they you test a musical before you try and take it to Broadway. The reviews were very mixed. There wasn't a lot written about it at the time. It looks like the photos it looks like they've been quite true to the source material. But since then, I believe it's gone back into development. So I'd be very interested to know where it's at. Now if it

Steph 1:19:47

does come to fruition, I really hope it comes to be amazing, my

Lauren 1:19:51

goodness, my kingdom to be in that musical because if you don't know dear listeners, I am musical theater I used to be anyway, I don't know if I've still got the chops for it. But

Steph 1:20:02

you were in strictly ballroom not that long ago.

Lauren 1:20:05

I was That's true. But I was playing an old lady's

Steph 1:20:13

a musical dancer as well. Yes, sure. I guess overarching all of that there's I think Romy. And Michele really has a positive message of being true to yourself, and not comparing yourself to everybody else's life. Because you actually don't know. You know, if you're measuring success based on what you see other people, especially on social media, then you don't actually know that's not a very good measure. And the message at the end being just be who yourself maybe you don't have the career that everybody else has. But what's more important is that you're being truthful to yourself and doing what makes you happy. And I guess at the end, they end up like opening their own boutique anyway, exactly.

Lauren 1:20:58

What I yeah, what I really like is that I mean, the movie does pass the Bechdel Test, which is always a good sign. And I love that, yes, Michelle does get together with Sandy in the end. But that's kind of not what they land on at the end when Yeah, and we say goodbye to the characters that have opened their store together and that the most important thing is that they're still best friends. And then they've found something that makes them happy. And I think that's actually a really progressive message for the late 90s.

Steph 1:21:27

Yes, and they're just happy folding scarves together.

Lauren 1:21:31

That's right. You don't have to do crazy things with your bestie you can just fold scarves or have a beer together and be perfectly happy. And I think that's really nice.

Steph 1:21:39

Which actually leads to my favorite quote from Heather, which is hopefully I get it. This dress exacerbates the genetic betrayal. That is my legacy.

Lauren 1:21:54

Oh, God, that sounds right.

Steph 1:21:55

I think I might have missed a few words. She

Lauren 1:21:58

is good. She is the best. But I also enjoy Oh, fuck off, Toby.

Steph 1:22:06

Oh, and also Justin Theroux is the Calvary.

Lauren 1:22:09

Gonna say Justin Thoreau is also in it, which is a strange flashback as well.

Steph 1:22:15

And I think he was fairly, like not very well known at the time, but no,

Lauren 1:22:18

no, not at all. And you don't really see his face either. It's covered by his cowboy hat. Yeah.

Steph 1:22:24

So it's another like personal is like, Oh my God, that's him.

Lauren 1:22:27

I know. No, it also tickles me that Allen coming please. Sandy like, yeah, I just I adore everything he does. So so

Steph 1:22:35

iconic. Yeah. Excellent. Just a brilliant, brilliant movie. If you haven't watched it, what are you doing? Anybody need to make a call? Because I've gotta love it.

I guess to finish up, is there anything that you would tell your younger self about? Scoliosis, about body image, living your life? And also for anyone else out there who has scoliosis? Or is going through wearing treatment for scoliosis?

Lauren 1:23:10

Goodness me, I think if I met my younger self, first thing I would say to them is, it's all going to be okay. And the second thing I would say is that you're going to come out of this with a better sense of humor than everybody else. But just be careful, because then you'll want to go into stand up comedy. Yeah, I think anyone who would be diagnosed nowadays, I'd say the same thing. It's not a life sentence. You know, it can be very confronting, it can be limiting in some ways. But, you know, one thing I've definitely learned is that your body is quite amazing. And it is amazing at adapting. And you'd be so surprised how, how well it can adapt to this and how much you can still live a very grateful life with or without a back brace.

Steph 1:24:05

100% Yeah, that's a really good message. Yeah, I would agree. I would probably tell myself that this is a very character building experience. Yes. It didn't make me pursue comedy, but it did make me interested in mental health and supporting young people particularly amongst all the other mental health issues I have experienced in my life. I think it led to me becoming a psychologist and yeah, it's like you say it's not going to stop you from achieving what you want to do. That's Ryan

Lauren 1:24:36

but I would just say just make sure that you get good shoes make sure you buy good shoes don't don't walk around in in shady shoes and lie down more to lay down and take breaks rest small Yeah, that's what I would also tell someone

Steph 1:24:50

Yeah, get out of sport if you want to.

Lauren 1:24:53

Yes, it's not gonna nothing will change your grade will not change if you miss you know softball for a couple You have a couple of beta test, you don't need to do the beat test, you'll still get your your high school certificate.

Steph 1:25:07

Awesome. One last thing. You said any particular throughout your scoliosis journey, are there any particular resources or supports out there that you would recommend to anyone? Look,

Lauren 1:25:19

again, I just I will reiterate that I was terrible at engaging in support because I was very much bury my head in the sand about it and ignore the fact that I had it when I was younger. But these days, there are some really great support groups on Facebook. I mean, I don't use Facebook a lot. But one great thing about it is that you can access it for you know, certain pages or certain groups and I am in a scoliosis support group on Facebook and and you know, sometimes it's, it's just parents worrying about their children and their diagnosis. And other times it's people like me who are not sure whether they should pursue surgery or not. And it's just nice to be in that forum. Sometimes, which is really useful. And I would also just say finding a good allied health professional, who's well experienced with scoliosis specifically will pay itself back in for the rest of your life like now that I have a treating doctor who understands my body and understands how scoliosis works, it makes such a huge difference. And they can really empower you to take control of of your condition and know how to manage your body basically.

Steph 1:26:27

That's so good. Thank you. I once upon a time, I made a website called scaly teens cute, and it is now defunct, but I thought it was really cool at the time. It is really cool. Good for you trying to provide support for teens around scoliosis. But while I was engaging with that I came across awesome female support group called curvy girls, which also has lots of Facebook groups for depending on where you are located. That if you go to www dot curvy girls scoliosis.com There's usually like an ambassador in each area. And it's all led by young girls with

Lauren 1:27:04

scoliosis. That's lovely. I love that Yeah, it's

Steph 1:27:07

really sweet and they do like events and parties and zoom get togethers and stuff like that place Well is there anything before we say goodbye that you would like to plug that you're doing at the moment and also how people can reach you on social media.

Lauren 1:27:20

Um, I'm not doing anything at the moment except having a six months long panic attack also known as writing a new show

Steph 1:27:27

very exciting.

Lauren 1:27:28

So I am well I am actually writing my new show will be very much based around being the back brace girl. So my all this new material I'm very excited to be finally talking about it and making jokes about it in a way that I hope is entertaining but also empowering and not in any way. self pitying.

Steph 1:27:48

So excited. Yeah. Cannot wait. Great.

Lauren 1:27:51

So please, if you're if you're that way inclined, keep a lookout for my show next year, which will hopefully debut in comedy festival. If you'd like to reach me on social media, my Tik Tok and Instagram. Our handle is at live laugh Lauren underscore, underscore. And that's where you can find me and I'd love to see you.

Steph 1:28:09

Fantastic. Thank you so much for joining me today. I've really enjoyed a chat about my

Lauren 1:28:14

scoliosis. It was so great. It's so nice to talk to someone about it who's actually had it. It's Yeah, it's crazy how much we don't talk about such a common thing. And

Steph 1:28:24

that was such a huge part of our lives for so long and still is. Yes, I agree. Well,

Lauren 1:28:29

thank you so much for having me. I've had a great time.

Steph 1:28:35

This podcast is not designed to be therapeutic, prescriptive or constitute a formal diagnosis for any listener. For a longer version of this disclaimer, please check the Episode notes on your podcast app.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai