Why Santa Claus IS Autistic

Music Break 0:00

Intro starts

Oliver 0:05

This is something the director of both my shows the no Bang Theory and my upcoming show Santa Claus artistic says all the time is that you can only roll a shit in so much glitter *steph laughs*

Steph 0:19

Well welcome to Psychocinematic a podcast where we analyse depictions of mental illness and disability in popular films and TV. I'm your host, Stephanie Fournier. If you love our podcast and want to give us some support, make sure you're following Psychocinematic podcast on Instagram, tick tock and Twitter. And check out our website Psychocinematic podcast.com. For access to special bonus content episodes, Early Access stickers and contribute to our regular fundraisers, join our Patreon starting from $3.50 a month you can be the coolest Psychocinematic listener there is.

Music Break 0:54

Intro finishes

Steph 0:55

I'm just like to start today by acknowledging the traditional owners of the land on which were on today. I'm from Wurundjeri country of the Kulin nation, and I'd like to pay respects to elder's past, present and emerging and recognise that I'm currently sitting on stolen land. And that this is always will be and always was Aboriginal land. I'm very excited to welcome my guest today, which is Oliver Hetherington page, did I get your name right?

Oliver 1:25

You got my name right. It's a difficult name and it is what happens when my mother decides not to change her name. And then my parents argue for long periods of time and what surname to give me.

Steph 1:39

My poor son has kind of got that experience. He's got my last names Fornasier and my husband's name is Watson. So he's Casper Grant Fornasier Watson, but not hyphenated so they can just put Watson at the end.

Oliver 1:52

Okay

Steph 1:53

so totally feel you. But welcome, Oliver, really excited to have you on the podcast today. Would you like to introduce yourself and also what country you're on today?

Oliver 2:02

Yes, I am coming to you from the lens of the younger and turbo people here in me engine or Brisbane. I'm a autistic writer, performer, theatre maker, advocate who creates works by and about and for autistic audiences as much as I can. And then I do other plays and musicals and all kinds of different things to try to make the theatre a more accessible place for people with neurodivergent. See, and disability.

Steph 2:34

Brilliant. I'm so happy that you're on to talk about not just about what we talk about on the podcast, which is representation, but also your own representation and how you're inside the industry trying to make it more inclusive, which is super exciting. I also want to note that you graduated from Queensland University of Technology, which is where I went to uni so QUT represent

Oliver 2:55

Yes, yes, I did go to QUT

Steph 2:58

University for the real world as they say.

Oliver 3:00

As they say. I don't know what that means. Is any of the other universities in Fantasyland? I'm not sure. But yes, qut is known as the university for the real world.

Steph 3:14

And you've had some amazing works that have come out quite recently, you debuted your cabaret the no Bang Theory in 2021 as part of the undercover artists festival and you took it to Wyndham fringe Adelaide, fringe HOTA at the Gold Coast.

Oliver 3:31

HOTA is called hOTA, home of the arts.

Steph 3:33

home of the arts. Awesome, thank you. And the Gold Coast, the PIP theatre and RPAC

Oliver 3:39

RPAC is Redlands Performing Arts Centre. And PIP is a purpose in performance. It's a theatre slash charity that opens up at space to artists to tell stories of all kinds that have social importance. Fantastic.

Steph 3:54

And you're recently at the Melbourne Fringe Festival, which is how I got to see your fantastic show. And you've also received the access arts Achievement Award at a Matilda Award for Best emerging artist.

Oliver 4:04

Yes, I have.

Steph 4:05

What was that like for you?

Oliver 4:06

It was amazing. I should mention that I because it's not on my resume because it happened very recently that I was recently shortlisted for Autistic Queenslander of the year.

Steph 4:18

Ah, that's awesome. Congratulations.

Oliver 4:21

And I'll find out about that at the end of this month. So fingers crossed. Yes.

Steph 4:26

So hopefully by the time this comes out where you maybe know, yes, and hopefully you're the winner. So tell me a little bit about the no Bang Theory. You've been touring it for a couple of years now.

Oliver 4:38

It came out of a number of things. I always kind of knew I wanted to do a show that matched my lived experience of autism with my love of musical theatre. And I kind of always knew that that was at some point, something that I wanted to do and it had various titles over various time. I'm not weird, I'm just autistic, various different titles, none of which I can remember now, I graduated from the aforementioned University of the real world at the end of 2019. And at that stage, I'm like, okay, 2020 is going to be my year, I'm going to, you know, I hit the ground running, I'm gonna get all these opportunities

Steph 5:21

the world's your oyster

Oliver 5:22

then that obviously didn't happen because the world fundamentally changed. And it made it very difficult to make theatre. And so I was sitting there in lockdown going, what is it that I want to do? What is it that I want to give an idea that kind of came back was this cabaret about autism, and autism representation, and what that kind of meant, and I think the no Bang Theory title kind of came from and the show was kind of birthed from, I kept having to seemingly justify my own autism, because I didn't present the way that autism is seen by most people. And I'm a believer in the way that so many things are seen or informed by the film or television that people interact with. And for a lot of people, particularly people around my age, the go to what autism looks like. And I put that in bunting is, is Sheldon Cooper and The Big Bang Theory. So I wanted to create my kind of anti Sheldon, tell my story. And during the lockdown, I was lucky enough to get a mentorship grant, with a producer by the name of Alex Woodward, who was the understudy for elder price in the Book of Mormon, and has done a number of different things. And he's a local Brisbane bloke who I know quite well, his most claim to fame is he's the son of Brisbane, weather woman, Jenny Woodward, who worked on the ABC for a long time and still does, but he came on board and said, I'll help you produce it. And then kind of take a backseat once it's been made, and let you take it off. So from there, that was $10,000. And we really developed the first 10 minutes of the show for a online Festival in 2020. And then the following year, there was the in person undercover artist festival. And we got some arts Queensland funding to fully develop the rest of the show. And it debuted there and it kind of has just kept going since then. That's the kind of story of the show it's just I've kept pushing it and kept doing it and venues have been interested in having me do it there. So I go, okay, and is kind of the process that its been

Steph 7:42

have these kinds of opportunities have presented themselves as it's continued.

Oliver 7:47

Look I'm not going to pretend that I haven't had to work for those opportunities.

Steph 7:51

Of course, yeah.

Oliver 7:52

But they have kind of come up semi regularly and venues particularly on the regional Queensland circuit. So we took the show to Bundaberg. We've, as I mentioned, to the Gold Coast, I mean, this isn't regional Queensland but oddly, we took it to Darwin this year.

Steph 8:09

Oh, wow.

Oliver 8:10

So and, of course Redlands down that kind of way, again in the regional Queensland space. And so we were taking it to Toowoomba early next year. So it's still going along with just doing the kind of regional Queensland circuit and there have been some that I pushed for, like I really pushed for Melbourne, and took a big risk on taking the show to Melbourne. But I knew that Melbourne is a different place when it comes to both neurodivergent . And what it means to be an artist, there's this big pressure in Brisbane right now of if you don't go to Sydney or Melbourne, then you're not a real artist. You can't be a real artist from Queensland. And look, I think that's mostly BS. And I just was like, No, but it's also like, I know it's BS, but when you hear it enough, you start to believe it. So it's like no, I need to get to Melbourne to prove to myself that I can take it to Melbourne.

Steph 9:08

Yeah

Oliver 9:08

it's really privileged in just the interest that is there in Melbourne and the audience's that I found in Melbourne.. were they massive every night? No, but I think as a starting point and a foundation for the kind of work that I want to do, which is for a long time, the idea of disability art or other disabled artists talk about it like this as the disability arts ghetto, that it's separated from the mainstream art, and it's to the side.

Steph 9:38

Yeah.

Oliver 9:39

And I really want to slowly build the bridge between the mainstream art world and the kind of disability art world and kind of sit between them. But the struggle with that is there's no infrastructure in that place. So I'm slowly constantly building the infrastructure. which is an added challenge and is difficult.

Steph 10:02

Yeah. And I guess it's, I guess it means you have to kind of put yourself in situations that are a little bit risky by, you know, coming to Melbourne Fringe and other interstate arenas to try and push that people want to see disabled ups in the mainstream sort of setting. So you're kind of like blazing the trail. So more people are encouraged to do this as well. Yes.

Oliver 10:26

And look, I think I've been very lucky that I have gotten government funding from both on a state, federal and council level. So I know I'm doing quite well. And that if I hadn't gotten federal government funding, I would have lost a lot of money on Melbourne. And in the end, we made I think, about $800. So like, not a lot, but that was because the grants could fund all costs. Yeah. And that is the reality of being an independent artist, is you are reliant on government grants, and you are reliant on independent producers and generous benefactors to support work, particularly for neurodivergent and disability lead work, there has been such a hesitancy for such a long time about it, quality and its financial viability, that we've had to really kind of shift the conversation about where that money is coming from, and what that looks like, and how we can go about making it more accessible. because I can go on podcast till the cows come home and continue to talk about it. But until I have the money and the opportunity, and the executive function, and all the kinds of access things, to find the team in order to do it, because I can't do it by myself, I am one person. And the infrastructure that neurotypical people and non disabled people go through aren't built for me. So I can't necessarily go through the same infrastructure. So not only am I doing it by myself, I am building the infrastructure by myself to get the same opportunities that other people don't have to work hard for, because they obviously do work hard, but take for granted in a certain sense.

Steph 12:21

Yeah, hugely. And I think that also just highlights how much work goes into a show like yours, particularly with a lot of the limitations because like you say, it's the world is built for neurotypical people. So yeah, it's pretty amazing how successful you have become, despite all those barriers as well,

Oliver 12:41

because I'll tell the story, and I think it's a really interesting one. When we were bringing the show to Melbourne, we had to make the choice between finding a wheelchair accessible venue, or paying an extra something like two and a half grand on venue hire, that they will cheaper venues that weren't wheelchair accessible,

Steph 13:00

because there's actually not many that are wheelchair accessible.

Oliver 13:04

Not many venues that are wheelchair accessible. So it was a thing of going. While I fundamentally believe in making all my shows wheelchair accessible, and Auslan interpreted, I couldn't afford Auslan interpretation every night. So I had to then limit and go okay, we'll do one show with Auslan interpretation. And it was a balancing thing. And it was just a really interesting going that the moment you start thinking about access, you were adding a lot of money to the overall cost and the running of the show. And that's not to say it's not worth it is fundamentally worth it. I have been in production meetings, so many times of people, I had a meeting with a company that I won't name for the sake of the story. 

And I said you should get Auslan interpreting for your shows. And they're like, Well, we did that once and only one Auslan interpreter, one person who needed Auslan came, and we were paying so and so much to show for the Auslan interpretation. So no, if only one person comes, that's not worth the money, and I go yes, it is. It fundamentally because that one person could tell another one person, it might not happen overnight. But if you invest in that long term, you're gonna start seeing a difference. I talk about this a lot as proactive and reactive access that you there are things you can do to be proactive for your access and building it in. 

And then there are some times where you do just have to be reactive and go okay, this person needs this thing. Let's do that. And you can't have one without the other you need both and they need to work in tandem with each other in order to make the theatre and look I haven't done much film work but I'm sure it is true of film as well surely film accessible it is about working in tandem with each other and making it as accessible as possible.

Steph 15:00

And to me, it's just an economic decision as well. Because if you are making your shows more inclusive for people with a diverse range of needs, as a rule, you're going to have more people coming to your shows, because generally people with disabilities will see that a venue is not wheelchair accessible. And they'll go see that there's no Auslan interpreting, and they won't go, oh, they won't even look into it, because they assume that there won't be anything.

Oliver 15:26

Do for me, it's like people say, Oh, we did it once. And it didn't happen. So we're not doing it again. Yeah, that's not the solution. The solution is you do it once and you get maybe five people. You do it again, you get 10.

Steph 15:32

Yeah

Oliver 15:36

You do it again, you get 15. Because disabled people have been hurt and marginalised. For a long time, they're really hesitant to come back into a space.

Steph 15:53

Exactly, yeah.

Oliver 15:54

Also, it means listening. If the community tell you, you've got it wrong. And then view that as an attack on you, is, if you're working in the space, and there are, I talk about this a lot, well meaning neurotypicals and well meaning non disabled people who need to be our allies, being a good ally means not making it about you, and not thinking you know, better than the disabled people. And I've seen so many people think I know better. So I'm going to do this, or we spoke to this one, the one disabled person who said this thing. So actually wrong, because if you say something different. Yeah, there we go. know, people's access needs are in direct conflict with each other. disabled people and neurodivergent people are not a monolith. We don't all agree with one another on every point.

Steph 16:47

no.

Oliver 16:48

Back to the no Bang Theory, there are a lot of neurodivergent autistic people that love Sheldon Cooper. And yeah, they've seen themselves. And I think that's great. Like, I personally don't like the show and think it is actively harmful. But I'm not going to tell someone who really likes it and finally saw themselves, or take it away from you. I'm going to explain why I disagree. Yeah. And try to start a conversation going, Oh, if you liked that, and you saw yourself in that maybe try this other thing that I think handles it better. But I'm not going to tell anyone to not enjoy something. And I think too often in this in my industry. It becomes a one size fits all, Oh, we've done this thing. Therefore we're accessible now. 

No, access is a process. Access is a thing that takes time, and hard work. And listening. A company that will again remain nameless said to me, they just announced the new season for 2024. And there were no disabled artists programmed on it. And I had a bit of a go at them and said Why weren't there no disabled artists programmed and I and they said, Well, we only programmed who asked, you know who came forward, and no disabled artists came forward. And so we couldn't programme that wasn't there. And I kind of went, Well, why? Ask yourself? Why didn't disabled artists feel like they could come to you?

Steph 18:23

Yeah, it's not like they're not out there. Wanting to perform

Oliver 18:27

You know, why didn't they feel like they could come to you? You know some disabled artists. Firstly, you know me, you know I exist, even if I couldn't work it for me this time. Come to me, I know names. And I could reach out to some of the disabled artists I know and go, What do you think of this? Do you want to do something in this space? Like, I don't think it's simple or it's hard work. But it is worth it. If you do it right, which is what I'm trying to do with all my works. Even the ones that might not necessarily directly deal with autism or disability head on. 

That doesn't mean the example I talk about all the time is you could put on Hamlet, and still make that an accessible experience about and for disabled people. Like Hamlet, as a character is a character that is constantly second guessing his emotions. He is going oh, but why do people do that? Why? It doesn't make sense. I don't get it. Why is that is the experience of so many neurodivergent people of people making actions that don't really make sense. And so you it is that lived experience and you can make a Hamlet that speaks to that fully without changing a single piece of dialogue, but it's just about changing how we think about neurodiversity and about theatre and about what accessible theatre looks like, to make that work.

Steph 20:01

Hugely agree. And I guess it's it's focusing not just on the neurotypical experience, but the neuro variances of everybody. Yeah, it's really a concept that you know, you can put a ramp in, you can include a Auslan interpreters at particular times or use a sensory room. But if you're not focusing on it from that lens of being inclusive, those little piecemeal things that promote a bit of inclusion only go so far. And I think that's what yourself and other advocates like yourself are trying to shift is that whole mentality that really needs to come with that.

Oliver 20:36

And I think it is not just about I mean, it's a great first step, hiring neurodivergent people to play neurodivergent roles, that disabled roles. And that's a great first step, and that for a long time, it hasn't happened. So it is great that we're now starting to see people like Chloe Hayden, get those opportunities. I love Chloe, you're not gonna hear me say a bad word about Chloe.

Steph 20:57

I don't think it's possible to.

Oliver 21:00

I also think was her character and heartbreak high written by a neurodivergent person. Was there a neurodivergent person in that writers room in that directing team? In those crew rolls? That will, I know a number of neurodivergent people that try to watch Heartbreak Highg and find it overstimulating because it was too loud, too much going on. And so they're not seeing the amazing access acting work that Chloe is doing on that show. Yeah, because

Steph 21:30

it's a good point.

Oliver 21:31

And that is about going Chloe Hayden it is great that you have Chloe Hayden. But Chloe Hayden can't be the only neurodivergent person on that set. 100%. Yeah. And she shouldn't be every aspect of that show should have neurodivergent see in mind, from the writing, to the directing. And I just think it's sad, because it's, I know, I've heard some horror stories of look at us, we've got a neurodivergent actor or we've got a neurodivergent. Right up. That's it. We're done. Yeah. And it's like, in every other minority group, that would not be good enough.

Steph 22:10

No, no, exactly. It's more like the token character or the token person on set that can inform

Oliver 22:17

I use this logic a lot, particularly when it comes to First Nations storytelling, because I think the direction that First Nation storytelling is going right now is where I think disabled and neurodivergent storytelling should be heading. In this day and age, you're not going to tell a First Nation story, without at least a First Nations co writer, and a new First Nations co director on your project. You're realistically just not going to do that. But we think it is perfectly appropriate for neurodivergent and disabled stories to continue to do that.

Steph 22:51

on that note, too in heartbreak high you mentioned because we did cover heartbreak high with Zoe Simmons. They did have as you say, a First Nations person consulting and writing and and also actors in the show, particularly around those particular storylines

Oliver 23:09

The episode with the because I watched it because I know Thomas Weatherall who played the First Nations

Steph 23:16

Malikai

Oliver 23:17

Yeah, he was at QUT at the same time I was so we know each other quite well.

Steph 23:22

Fantastic.

Oliver 23:22

So I watched it and I he spoke very openly about the importance of having Maine wide in the writers room and telling those stories respectfully and honestly, not saying I didn't think Chloe hadn't did a great job because she did. But it was on her. Yes. And she has spoken about it in interviews about they crafted that character in consultation with her it should not be on Chloe Hayden to do

Steph 23:48

no, exactly it's there's a lot of pressure particularly for people who are already you know, Chloe, someone already had a bit of a following she was already quite popular to sort of embody everything about autism and I think she's almost like the poster person for autism at least for a little while because of that role when it Yeah, it's a lot of pressure to put on her and it can backfire. She's had

Oliver 24:13

to basically she hasn't shut down a social media but social media is now run by a team oh she's not running her own social media anymore because she was getting constant attacks death threats trolls abuse on social media because she is the only one in the... like I'm doing my bit but I'm nowhere near on the level of Chloe Hayden huge popularity level and I think companies like Netflix and Disney plus and all of them will go oh, we have Chloe Hayden. We don't need anything else

Steph 24:45

we've ticked that box.

Oliver 24:46

we ticked that box and I'm like we don't play tick a box with other minority groups. We just ableism is the last ism that goes unchecked because the isms and the phobias were so We're aware of them now we're aware of homophobia, we're aware of sexism, we're aware of racism, and we're all doing our bit to combat it. Not enough people are aware of ableism is even a thing enough to combat.

Steph 25:13

And it's still very intrinsic in policies and procedures and institutions that were in.

Oliver 25:19

In Queensland as of two days ago, you now need a medical certificate to drive if you're autistic. I've been driving for five years. And I now need a doctor to say you can keep doing what you're already doing. I think that makes me sick to my stomach.

Steph 25:35

That is such a backward step. Why would a doctor even know whether you're capable of driving in the first place? That's not their job? Ah, so yeah, that's a really good example, that ableism is not only not decreasing, but it is increasing in many areas.

Oliver 25:52

Yes. Yeah.

Steph 25:53

So frustrating. But yeah, I'm totally with you, I and it's also great to get your perspective, because, you know, heartbreak high is so highly respected and well regarded for its representation. But it doesn't mean that it's not flawed in many ways. So it's really good to get that perspective.

On that note, because we were talking about the no Bang Theory, which focuses on how you really detest Sheldon as a character. Can you tell me more about why Sheldon is problematic in the Big Bang theory in terms of its artistic representation?

Oliver 26:33

I think there are a couple of things. One is that they've clearly coded him with autism. Like there is no doubt that when you... Jim Parsons, who was playing him talks about in interviews, Oh, I did all this research about autism to play this character. He doesn't accidentally do that. He's doing that because someone has told him to do that. And there is something in the writing that suggested that he go there. Yeah, that doesn't accidentally happen. I've known a lot of actors, and I am one. You don't do the research on something like that unless your boss tells you to. But

Steph 27:05

you don't have time to look at all different possibilities. You just want to study the character that youre playing

Oliver 27:10

You'll ask. And you'll ask early on, what do you think is up with this character? And they'll say, Well, we think maybe this and you'll do the work on that. So they've the writers have clearly made a choice to code that character as autistic, but they then don't want to diagnose the main character. And speak in euphemisms they will say repeatedly on that show, it's a running gag. I'm not crazy. My mother had me tested. Tested for what? What are we? What has she got you tested for Sheldon

Steph 27:42

like there.. There's a few.. that's sanist as well as ableist. Yeah. What is the test for crazy? We don't? Yeah,

Oliver 27:49

and I just go. I think the reason they don't name the diagnosis, fundamentally, is if you name the diagnosis, suddenly the butt of the joke is that a disabled person is there

Steph 28:00

Yeah. And then they have to manage that

Oliver 28:02

They have to manage that. And there's expectations and there's things but when you're laughing at a slightly weird, quirky person that says weird things and has weird behaviours, people feel comfortable about doing that in a way that they wouldn't feel comfortable doing at laughing at a disabled person. I think there is a brilliant show with a about a Sheldon Cooper like character where you laugh with him?

Steph 28:29

Yeah,

Oliver 28:29

I don't. I think there are some things that Sheldon does, that is inherently funny. But you need to be aware of where the joke is landing and where it is heading at any given time. And I think how you do that is having a neurodivergent person in your writers room. having a neurodivergent actor playing that role, that fundamentally understands that, and so isn't going to have to, as Jim Parsons, put it, research autism and read books on autism, because they fundamentally understand it.

Steph 29:02

Yeah.

Oliver 29:03

And that's not to say there isn't more to learn about autism, there is always more to learn about autism. I'm learning more about autism all the time. But on a fundamental level, you just get it. Yeah. And I think that's what I want to see more of in my film and in my TV and in my theatre as well is just a fundamental understanding, kind of kind of going. Autism is not just Sheldon Cooper.

Steph 29:31

Yeah.

Oliver 29:31

Also, this is a broader problem that I'm very happy to talk about. And I think it's good. Autism is not just straight white men. I am a straight white man. But I also acknowledge the plethora and the uniqueness of trans autistic stories, female autistic stories, which is why I think it is great that Chloe Hayden is making such a big difference in female autism representation out in the world because I see far more of my My experience even as a straight white autistic man in Chloe Hayden's understanding of autism than I ever did in Jim Parsons, and Sheldon Cooper,

Steph 30:10

yeah

Oliver 30:10

that I don't like science. I've never been good at it. I've never had an interest in particle physics and look I like a Marvel movie. But I wouldn't say I'm a comic book nerd. There are just things about that experience that is just not mine. Because the spectrum is a spectrum. And I think the more we show the diversity within that spectrum in both gender, sexuality and type of... not type of autism, autism is autism. But I mean, the manifestation of autism, how that tends to manifest in special interests and the types of things that we tend to hyper fixate on. Because there are common patterns. And there are a lot of autistic people that do hyper fixate on the sciences, but they're not the only type of hyper fixation. But it is the only type of hyper fixation we see. Because through things like Rain Man, and Sheldon Cooper day became the stereotype.,

Steph 31:13

I was just thinking too like, I've heard so many people say my son's a bit of a Sheldon Cooper or such and such as a bit of a Rain Man, they became like you say, the stereotype and the baseline in which to decide whether someone has autism or not. And there's such very stereotypical depictions, like you say, very stereotypical hyper fixations and mannerisms, which I can only say, because I surmise that because I've actually never watched it because probably for this similar reason,

Oliver 31:44

I think about this a lot. as a show, it is well made, like it is not like very common. It's very popular and it is popular for a reason. The writing is good, it is got good cinematography, it is well shot, it has good comedic beats, and it is timed well. Like on a made level, it is well made, but it's the poison apple that sits at the centre of it, there's something rotten in the state of Denmark, like at the centre of it, it is what and so this is something the director of both my shows the no Bang Theory and my upcoming show Santa Claus autistic says all the time, is that you can only roll a shit in so much glitter.

Steph 32:29

*laughs* I'm gonna use that one that's great

Oliver 32:31

you can make it look pretty all you want. But at the end of the day, if there's a shit in the centre, it's still a piece of shit

Steph 32:37

It still stinks.

Oliver 32:38

It still sucks. And I think that's true of the nope, The Big Bang Theory not the no Bang Theory. No Bang Theory is really good. If I don't say so myself. Big Bang theory is that it is fundamentally flawed from top to bottom in how they thought about that character. That character was always a punch line, in always meant to be a punch line for the audience to sympathise with the neurotypical people around him trying to deal with him.

Steph 33:08

Yes, yes

Oliver 33:10

it would be so easy to make that show about Sheldon Cooper's not understanding the world and his quirky observations of it. And there's sometimes how he's hard work but that centres his experience, but the heart of the show. Well, Sheldon Cooper's the main character, the one that everyone cares about. The kind of hero of the show is Leonard and his roommate and Penny, the kind of normal girl across the hall. have to deal with Sheldon Yeah, it is Sheldon is the big the obstacle that they deal with

Steph 33:46

that creates the plotlines

Oliver 33:49

creates the plot. he's the MacGuffin of the plot that forces the plot forward. No, not the kind of interesting fundamental heart of the show of which makes it interesting. And I think there is a better version of probably not the big bang theory but a different show with a very similar character that shifts that perspective, and is going to be fundamentally better for it.

Steph 34:17

Absolutely. And in your show. The no Bang Theory You talk a lot about disability representation, and what you prefer. But before we get to that, you also talk about what it was like for you growing up in hot stinking Brisbane also at an all boys school, Catholic school, right

Oliver 34:37

yes.

Steph 34:37

And the traumatic experiences of not being supported in that environment and being almost it seems punished for being autistic and a lot of those experiences you went through. What was that like rehashing some of those experiences for your show?

Oliver 34:54

It was freeing and it was also interesting in that I still carry those scars, not literally. But figuratively those wounds are still there and affect my everyday life. I am very quick to perceive a slight against me, because I was constantly seemingly being punished for things that I didn't understand. So I'm very quick to feel all I'm being punished. That's not fair. One thing I hate, and I think about this a lot, and it's big things, and it's minor things. I hate feeling like when I've done the right thing, I still get in trouble for it anyway. 

And that dates directly back to the school years and getting in trouble for like, Oh, but I did the right thing. I followed the rules, why am I getting in trouble, but I just didn't pick up on the sometimes rules are not rules. They're not suggestions. They're kind of like... I'll tell the story that I talked about in my show Santa Clause Is autistic that we'll talk about in a minute.

Steph 34:54

Sure

Oliver 34:58

in primary school, there was a rule that you weren't allowed to play with sticks. You just, you know, you could poke someone's eye out, and it would be disastrous. So they made this rule, you weren't allowed to play with sticks. And there was someone that every day would play with sticks all the time. And I would always get mad and go, that's against the rules. And I would go up to the teachers and go, they're playing the sticks. So they're playing with sticks. So you know, and the teacher would go, Oh, come on, it's gonna be fine. You know, just leave them alone. And you won't get hurt kind of stuff. And I'll go but know the rules, say you're not allowed to play with sticks. Why aren't you doing anything? Why aren't you doing anything? 

And then so one day, I got really frustrated that this person was always playing the stick. So I walked up to them and grabbed them and forcibly removed the sticks from their hands. And then I got in trouble because I didn't keep my hands to myself. And we weren't allowed to have physical contact with other students, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, Well, I did the right thing. They did the wrong thing. First, why am I getting in trouble for that? And while that incident, you know, no one is playing with sticks, really, when I'm 25. That kind of manifestation and fear of perceived no one listening when I'm saying these are the, you know, I just lose it when I feel like I've done the right thing. And I'm getting punished for it.

Steph 37:24

Yeah.

Oliver 37:24

And I think what No Bang and Santa Clause Is Autistic, have done is put a narrative to these seemingly unconnected events and go, no, there is a trajectory here and there is a thing that has happened. And these before there, were disjointed events that existed. As this thing happened to me, then this thing happened to me. And this thing happened to me. By doing these shows, were creating the kind of spider's web a tapestry, it might not be a straight line, but it's these things are all connected and form a whole of who I am. Yeah, these are not a new. 

I think we as humans are very good at narrative eyes in our lives, we do it all the time. We go, if this thing happens to us, then that means this thing will happen. And it just flows on like we narrative eyes all the time, by literally narrative biassing My life, it actually makes it easier. Because the story I tell becomes the story that I actually tell and I practice it, and I reinforce it. People can't come and go all of it. That didn't happen. It didn't happen like that. But no, yes, it did. That is my truth.

Steph 38:43

Yeah, that's fundamentally. Yeah. So it's almost a cathartic, almost therapeutic way of processing your experiences and your trauma, almost, you know, there's a, there's a therapeutic model called Narrative Therapy, which really is about telling your story, and talking through what that story looks like. And then maybe, you know, holding on to this story, or changing the story in a way that makes it easier to sort of sit with that story, or I'm not giving it the full explanation it deserves, but

Oliver 39:15

it can be, definitely make sense. And I think, certainly, I wouldn't say my theatre is my therapy, but it is therapeutic therapeutic. And that it comes from a whenever I do a new show and start thinking about a new show, I think, what have I learned about myself since I wrote my last show that I'm ready to explore that I wasn't ready to explore last time. Yeah. What are the things in my past that are still left untapped for various reasons? Because of x, y, and Zed? Where is where are the things that are going to play their part?

Steph 39:55

Does it ever get too much to sort of go back there and process it?

Oliver 39:59

I think I don't start something until I processed it. That is... when traumatic things happen. And they do happen. I'm not like, oh, I have to write a play about this right now. All I have to do, but it's like, I will sit on it. There are things that happen three or four years ago that I'm only now starting to be ready to talk about in my work. And but who knows if they will ever see the light of day? Hopefully they will. But that's not fully in my hands. And it shouldn't be fully in my hands. That I think that I only start a story when I'm ready to tell it. And I'm ready to tell it because I start telling it. Yeah, yeah. 

And there are things in my next show that I don't think I would have had been ready to talk about until other things put those things in perspective. And getting to an end point. For a long time, particularly with no Bang Theory, I talk a lot about my view on relationships. And that show, it's a play on words, I'd literally talk about not having sex. So like, for a long time, I viewed my autism as the reason that I wasn't in a relationship. And it's like, people don't like me, because I'm too autistic. And it was only by doing the no Bang Theory, and really engaging in it that I started to go. 

There are a whole bunch of reasons why I'm still single at 25, some of which had to do with being neurodivergent. A lot of them aren't. And I'm okay with that. I look, I still have work to do of being at peace with being single. And I think we always society teaches us that relationships and goals in such a way that it is always going to be a process to unlearn that. Yes, absolutely. And I'm still in a process of unlearning it. And I think that's fine. And that's good. But I think by doing No, no Bang Theory and talking about my view of relationships and the struggles that I've had for a long time, I felt I needed a girlfriend in order to be normal.

Steph 39:59

Yeah, yeah.

Oliver 40:33

That I think being okay with that means I'm now in a much better place, to for relationship to form naturally. Yeah, that I wasn't until I made no Bang Theory, because I hadn't unpacked what had happened. It wasn't that I hadn't gotten over the relation, the non relationship that I talked about in that show, but the scars of it was still there, until I shone a light on them. And when they're there, that's fine. You have to accept that will be a part of you probably forever. I can't begin to move forward. Yeah, yeah, that for me, theatre is about shining a light on the thing. And the more I can do that, the more healing it is that it is not too much. 

Because what becomes too much is not dealing with the problem. And that doesn't mean the moment I shine a light on something, I'm ready to write a play about it. No, it just means I begin to get ready and begin to understand a process of which a play may one day come out of.

Steph 43:08

And it's that process itself that sounds like not just the process of performing, but also the process of writing and creating that is part of that healing journey.

Oliver 43:18

Yes, definitely.

Steph 43:26

Well, this is probably a good segue into your next performance, which is Santa Claus is autistic. Yes. So tell me where the concept of Santa Clauses autistic came from? And how long have you been working on it?

Oliver 43:40

It started kind of, there were things that had to get cut from the no Bang Theory, because the no Bang Theory was running too long. And the joke in the room became save it for the sequel. Yeah. And so I think I was old for a long time. This hypothetical project was called no Bang Theory toe. No, it was called, I can tell you what it was literally called. It was called the no Bang Theory to shit never dies. Love it. And for a long time, it was that it was the next cabaret in my exploration of autism kind of series. And the longer that went on, and I started thinking about it, Mike, about a year and a half into no Bang Theory. I'm like, Okay, I think I'm ready to start on whatever the next show is. So this was about midway through last year. 

So midway through 2022. So I had a lull after Adelaide fringe last year, which is in about March through to about September. I didn't have any gigs. I just the work dried up. Life happened. So that was a long, long period where I was sitting down, wallowing in my own company. So I went okay, let's start thinking about what's next. Santa Claus is Autistic kind of came out of that. Like, I felt I couldn't call it no Bang Theory to, because I can picture the audience going. I didn't see No Bang Theory one do I really want to see no Bang Theory to good point. So it became about how do I make No Bang Theory to without it being no Bang Theory to. And the more that evolved, the more that evolved, it became Santa Clauses autistic, which I think is a wholly independent show from No Bang Theory. 

But if you've seen No Bang Theory, it serves as a kind of spiritual sequel. The no Bang Theory is the story of me and a journey to a diagnosis. Santa Clauses autistic is the story of okay, you have a diagnosis? How does the world react to that? How do you find a community in a world that doesn't understand you now that you've got an autism diagnosis, because an autism diagnosis, at least according to the no Bang Theory, meant that I could finally understand myself. And it was that it was that for me, but just because I understand myself doesn't mean the world gets it. And so Santa Clauses autistic is very much about how do I how did I try to get the world to react the ups and downs of that? 

Yeah, and it's about finding community and why I chose Santa as my kind of fictional cat, the Sheldon Cooper role, if you will, is that in my mind, Santa Claus is autistic, he makes the list and he checks it twice. And that might be the most artistic thing I've ever heard, but has strict black and white thinking he slips kids into the naughty or nice, he arrives in the middle of the night to avoid social contact. He has a strict diet of only milk and cookies, all these things that we associate with autism, Santa hats,

Steph 46:50

he wears the same thing every day

Oliver 46:51

he does wear the same thing every day. That's a good one, I might include that in the next draft. Everything that Santa displays as autism characteristics, we go our Santa, that's not like we celebrate those things we wrote in Carol's about him. He's making a list, he's checking it twice, it's gonna find out like, we celebrate those clear autistic characteristics. But when actually autistic people display those same characteristics. They get shunned, they get ostracised they get diagnosed, there's a very different reaction. 

And I thought on a community level, using Santa Claus as a metaphor to make that point is going to be really interesting. And it was one of the things that I decided very early on, is that they would this is a line from the show. Despite what the title would suggest this is not actually a Christmas show. It's about me using Santa and Christmas as a metaphor to make a point.

Steph 47:51

Yes, yeah.

Oliver 47:52

So it was always from designed not designed to just be performed between November 25 and December 25 Every year, it can and should be performed in January February, March, April, May June July, August, September October. It should be performed all year round because it can be performed all year round. Because autistic people exist all year round and existing people are displaying those characteristics all year round. Yeah. People need to learn those lessons all year round and not just go ha ha ha So and it's so sweet. Every Christmas we see Santa do all these cool quirky things.

Steph 48:31

Yeah, we like it for this short period of time but only for this short period of time.

Oliver 48:35

There is an irony that we are I am now debuting it in November December. And that was always going to be the case because that's when venues are interested to programme a show with the title Santa Clauses autistic makes that is fundamental but I hope and it is my genuine hope that this is successful in such a way that it doesn't need to be limited to the last eight weeks of the year and

Steph 48:57

I feel like Christmas is so beloved that even if people don't know much about it and it's on the schedule for you know a comedy festival they're still going to be very interested I love Christmas all year round.

Oliver 49:08

Yes

Steph 49:09

what you've just said to reminds me of like you know days like International Day of People with disability or RU OK day and all of those days where it's like let's celebrate disability on this day or let's focus on mental illness on this day but then ignore it for the other 364 days of the year. Yeah,

Oliver 49:26

RU OK days one that I think is really interesting because you get asked Are you okay on that day? You could be fine that day but two weeks from then you could be in deep deep shit but if no one asks Are you okay? Except on Are you okay date then it's got a okay days about mental health awareness and lowering suicide rates. If you ask people are you okay? One day a year? I don't think suicide rates are magically going to go down. It's not going to do much. No, for it to make an effect. You need to find that one person who's having a severe Mental health episode on that one day and I think mid October. I don't I can't quite remember.

Steph 50:07

September. Clearly, it's not that important to us.

Oliver 50:11

It's not important, but find that one depressed person on that one day, the chances of that happening seem small to me. I mean, if that happens and someone's life is saved, because on RUOK day someone asked, Are you okay, that is great. And I think that is a good thing. But I think you need to do more than that. I think you need people need to be asking, are you okay? Every day, I think people need to be examining their privilege all of the time. I think one of the things I was trying to create with Santa Claus as autistic is of the knee that will get people in to then start learning. 

And people do love a Christmas show. And I'm able to get them in with the veneer of Santa and the kind of Carols by candlelight vibes that I put out. And one of the things that I do with this show is I don't sing a single Christmas song in it. You don't I was that was my next question, don't it because this show is not about Christmas. And so why would I use that language and that kind of thing? It's like, No, this show isn't about Christmas. And look at that might be a market or mistake. We'll see when it premieres but

Steph 51:20

I mean, generally Christmas carols have not the greatest songs. So I think that was a correct choice to make. I find them annoying.

Oliver 51:28

Yeah, there are some nice ones. But overall, I don't need to hear Last Christmas every day for six weeks.

Steph 51:35

Exactly.

Oliver 51:36

The other thing that Santa Claus is autistic gave me the opportunity to do is create the spectrum singers choir. Yes. Tell me about that. It kind of came from the necessity of the show and a need for good community broadening things, is there are two things that went on. I felt like I was the only autistic person in the industry at the time, Croix Hayden was around. But she's, you know, got Chloe Hayden things going on. So I'm not. I've sent her a couple of emails and not heard anything back. Like, we're not on the same page. We're not talking about these things on a day to day basis. So I felt kind of very alone in the kind of neurodivergent space. So I wanted to find a community of artists that got it fundamentally just got it. 

And I also wanted with no Bang Theory, compared to Santa Claus as autistic, I didn't want it to close as autistic to not just be no bang, again, with slightly shorter jokes, which is the problem with so many follow ups, they tried to replicate the magic of the first thing that was successful. And it just feels the same thing, but slightly less original. I didn't want that. So I needed to find a way for Santa Clauses autistic to stand up. And in the show, there was a number that really required a big, big thing and it becomes synonymous with having a... you know what, fuck it, I'm just going to spoil this. It will still be effective. Even if you somewhat know what's coming. I was doing a still call Australia home parody.

Steph 53:06

I'm very excited.

Oliver 53:08

And I'd always included from very early on, I still call Australia home parody, that song has become synonymous was being performed by a quiet, it just has Yeah. And it was, Oh, I know what I can do. I can have my own choir, then it was pointed out to me that's very expensive, how you're going to pay for that. And then I kind of thought about it. And I realised I could come at this from two angles and go, I can find my community and in the show about autism and autism community, put a community on stage. And so then content informed Form and Form informed content that it all kind of came together and went, Oh no, the spectrum singers are a fundamental part of this show. 

Because this show is about them just as much as it is about me and about. It might be my story and my anecdotes and my kind of point of view. But that's just because I'm the one that got lucky enough to make the breakthroughs and make the chances and write the grant applications and bla bla bla bla bla, but it could just as easily be any one of my choir members. Maybe not anyone, but a lot of my choir members could just as easily have been the lead of this show. And I think that it's by design, and that is brilliant.

Steph 54:22

It puts it on that other level, the extra level too.

Oliver 54:24

Yes. And I think that's what I was really trying to do with this show is like how do I elevate without sacrificing the heart and the humour and the kind of intrinsic not smallness, but the intimacy of what made no Bang Theory. So effective. Yeah. And I think that's where the spectrum singers came from. And then thanks to Brisbane City Council and a number of other different grants from Access arts, Queensland and creative Australia has now called I was able to fund that choir which has got 11 neurodivergent singers from across the southeast corner of Queensland, fantastic. And then my plan would be if I was to say take it to Melbourne would be to find neurodivergent singers in Melbourne to talk to their community and play the part of the choir in their community. 

And wherever I take it always be about finding people, autistic people in that community to tell their stories. And I think that is crucial in continuing to grow, not just my brand, because I mean, it does get bums in seats to see my show, and I take the box office. So like it does grow my brand. But it also means that someone in that choir might make their own show and know that it is possible and see how that is done. And I think that's only going to be a benefit to the whole, absolutely. Gonna mean that in 5-10 years. 

Suddenly, I have a whole community around me that I can say I want a neurodivergent lighting designer. Okay, I know this guy that I met on this project five years ago, let's get him in. Yeah, I know, a neurodivergent, Production Manager, neurodivergent, director and neurodivergent video designer, I know people of all different jobs that I've lived experience of neurodiversity, so then suddenly, I can create more effective storytelling if people are getting those opportunities that weren't there for them before.

Steph 56:25

Yeah.

Oliver 56:25

And I think that's what the spectrum singers meant to me. And I'm super proud of all of them. I'm so proud of all they've done and all they've seen, I think, some of them probably, there's one in particular that I'm incredibly proud of that she is incredibly sound sensitive, and has a lot of anxiety associated with that. And the thought for her of being a professional performer probably seems a world away, but she has the talent, but she's never had the opportunity to go, this is okay for you to pursue. Yeah. 

And I think what the spectrum singers represents, hopefully over time, is the next time I do a show, I'm going to think of her and go come along and play. Let's figure something out. And my hope is that that's what happens. And she finds her path forward, because I think she deserves to find a path forward. And I think she has the talent in order to find a path forward. But the industry would look at her right now and go, it's too hard.

Steph 57:34

That kind of gives me a segue into another question that I want to ask you. If there are any theatre, industrial people listening to this podcast or companies, what would you tell them? Or what would you advise them to do to make their theatre companies or collectives or whatever they are theatres more accessible for neurodivergent people?

Oliver 57:57

There are a couple of things. It goes back to what I was talking about proactive and reactive. Yeah. First step is when someone comes to you and says, I need this to happen. Your response is Yes, I will do it. I will endeavour to do it. Even if it's I can't guarantee that it will happen. But I will try my damnedest to make sure that happens for you. Then there are things like making Relaxed Performances, even if it means sacrificing that disco ball that you think is absolutely crucial. And that moment of sound explosion. You don't need that sound explosion, you can turn down the volume on that moment. Shakespeare made plays without the whiz bang. Yeah, and we still read Shakespeare's plays today. 

We don't need the lights that shine in your face and blind you for five minutes. We don't need lights, etc. We don't need the strobe lights. We don't need the loud gunshot to go off every five minutes when they're shooting a gun. We can figure that out we can use our imaginations. It's about being clever and being proactive and thinking about it. Just thinking Let's not do this because this is the way it's always been done. Let's in consultation with communities, and if you're professionals in paid consultation with communities about making it accessible, and listen and even possibly sacrificing in order to make that happen.

It might mean instead of taking that solo director credit or tour director that you think you're the God's gift to man, taking a co director credit and giving an opportunity to neurodivergent artists that's hungry that might not otherwise get that opportunity to have that director's credit. Because having a director's credit on particularly like your major big companies like your Melbourne Theatre come and East Sydney theatre companies to Queensland to to come like your state theatre companies and companies of similar sizes in different cities to get a direct credit on that even a co director credit on that will make a career. It'll make a career. 

And so, for the big name directors that are working in those companies, no one's gonna care that you are the co director on that play instead of the sole credited director that passed the ideas of the auteur theory. We all know, that's bullshit. So can we stop being so precious about our credit, and find the right person for that job? And even if it means sacrificing your power, and don't go, oh, we have a neurodivergent writer in the room, we have a neurodivergent actor in the room. Now you need a neurodivergent director in that room, you need someone that is paid to make sure those things happen. And don't expect neurodivergent people to work for nothing.

Steph 1:00:59

Yeah.

Oliver 1:00:59

Some of the biggest theatre companies in Brisbane, I have been expected to work for nothing. And they have done. It is very insulting. They have the money to pay me. Yeah. And I was going in on this project, maybe one or two days a week for the full weeks of the rehearsal period. It would have been much yeah, like it would have been enough. But it wouldn't have broken your box office, it wouldn't have been the difference between breaking even and not breaking even. Yeah, it would have been maybe a percentage, or maybe two or 3% of your overall profit. I don't think you're going bankrupt off of that. 

And if you are, you have other serious issues of which to you be dealing with in your box office, and you shouldn't be sacrificing access to make ends meet, you should be going we don't need that strobe light that costs $5,000 A Night to run or whatever. Yeah, if you're in dire financial straits, that you can't afford to pay your access consultant,

Steph 1:01:59

maybe rethink your finances

Oliver 1:02:01

Maybe rethink your financial plans and where you're spending your money.

Steph 1:02:05

Yeah, I wonder too, like, I don't know that much at all about the theatre industry. And I can only know what I've read about the film industry. But I bet there's a lot of Monopoly with particular personalities who like to have that power and control. 

Oliver 1:02:25

And that recognition that there's a name that we're not saying in this conversation was become synonymous as the x person show, we always go see the X person show because they always make great theatre, I never miss an X person show. And they have become the name that's associated with a type of shot. And the brand was brought in to Director neurodivergent work, which I think is great. And I think that neurodivergent people deserve to have their stories told at the level of X director, X director, in my opinion, was not able to take his foot off the pedal in such a way. 

That meant being an X director with so and so's show, for the neurodivergent led work in a way that he absolutely would for an Asian lead work or for a First Nations lead work. And it comes back to what I was saying much earlier that ableism is the last ism. Yeah, that we have yet to acknowledge.

Steph 1:03:28

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So like, I guess there's a lot of work that needs to be done in the theatre space to get to a place where things are more inclusive, on that note, musicals that that is your passion, essentially. And we were just briefly talking about, yeah, some representation of autistic characters like in The Big Bang Theory, but I'm curious what disability or autistic representation you've noted in musicals, particularly because we've touched a little bit on musicals on this podcast, but I haven't seen a lot of artistic representation in musicals, particularly. So I'm curious,

Oliver 1:04:04

I think this might be a controversial answer. I think musicals are an inherently autistic artform. Musicals aren't subtle, they fundamentally aren't subtle in their emotion. And for neurodivergent people and I think why there are so many neurodivergent people drawn into musical theatre is that it is fundamentally a neurodivergent art form. It is an art form that doesn't regulate and show emotion. Typically, neurotypicals do not break into song, not as inherently neurodivergent art form. 

And so I think you think of every great protagonist in a musical theatre, and I could make an argument that they're neurodivergent Elphaba, the lead of wicked is fundamentally neurodivergent she is an outsider that struggles to fit in. She has rage moments where she melts down and Magic is displayed. It is a giant neurodivergency metaphor. I think the problem comes is that neurotypicals don't realise that, yeah, that we're not seeing openly neurodivergent performers talking about this. So this is interesting. And I think it is amazing. For the first time as of a week ago, openly neurodivergent people are on Broadway for the first time.

Steph 1:05:28

Amazing. I can't believe that's the first time. 

Oliver 1:05:33

But yes, as of a week ago, there is a new musical on Broadway called How to Dance in Ohio, which is about a group of neurodivergent students going to their prom, the prom or the formal for the first time. That is the first time that neurodivergent actors are telling neurodivergent story on a Broadway stage. But I think realistically, they've been there forever. And they can and should be there forever that there is nothing really stopping Eliza Doolittle in My Fair Lady being played by neurodivergent person. Eliza Doolittle speaks differently and doesn't behave the way she's meant to behave. So she is ostracised for it and then eventually learns how to behave and be herself within that society, and then ends up having to sacrifice for that. 

Isn't that the neurodivergent tale in a nutshell? Isn't that an autistic story, fundamentally, and there are only...

Steph 1:06:29

I've only been in a couple of musicals because I did do drama at school. And one was Guys and Dolls.

Oliver 1:06:35

So the two gangsters and Guys and Dolls, and then they have their two love interests. And I think there's the kind of super religious one that has strict rules. And strict, these are the way that things are meant to go, these are the things that I need to do. And I think that's it neurodivergent story just as much as I'd been ostracised, and I've kind of ended up in this life of crime, because I didn't fit in and I can't sit down because I'm rocking the boat too much. to quote Guys and Dolls sit down, you're rocking the boat. That is an inherently neurodivergent story. 

And I think we need to start opening up neurodivergent storytelling and start having a conversation because it's all over music theatre, which is why in both my shows, I used musical theatre music to go, you know, it's there. I don't have to work particularly hard to make these songs neurodivergent they're just neurodivergent that I just think we need to start opening up our conversations about how we can get neurodivergent storytelling on stage. Because I think it is great that we are starting very early stages of neurodivergent people being able to tell stories about neurodivergent they're not the only places we need to see neurodivergent people on stage. 

Yes, we need to see neurodivergent people playing Hamlet, playing Roxy Hart in Chicago playing the leads in the big touring musicals that tour around the country. A in your kind of big theatres, like, wicked is touring. Le Mis, Miss Saigon, Mary Poppins, like all your big big musicals, should have neurodivergent people in them. And doing that, because neurodivergent people exist everywhere. And they should always be in all stories, not just ones specifically deal with neurodivergency.

Yeah, it is that, and I talk about the metaphor of First Nations and Asian people and other culturally and linguistically diverse groups, that we're now saying that a person of colour can play the lead in a mainstream Australian musical, and it not be a thing you just be, we've carved the correct person for this job and that person had happened to be a person of colour. I think that's great. I think the fact that the current tour of Beauty and the Beast has a person of colour as Belle is amazing. I think there is an absolute no reason why your beast in Beauty and the Beast can't be a person in a wheelchair.

Steph 1:09:21

Yeah.

Oliver 1:09:22

There is absolutely no reason it would mean changing how you direct the show, which is why they haven't done it till now. Because they'll look at it and go, Oh, but the beast is always walked and all the choreography is built for a walking beast so we can't do it.

Steph 1:09:39

Change the choreography.

Oliver 1:09:40

Change that moment to be able to cast a wheelchair user or an ambulatory wheelchair user who can walk a bit, but also have it into your blocking that sometimes he's walking sometimes he isn't and we are able and needing to be able to do both. It's not that... it's hard, but it's not insurmountable. No and for little disabled kids going to see their first piece of theatre. Seeing a beast in a wheelchair will make a massive difference to them.

Steph 1:10:13

Yeah, be incredible...

Oliver 1:10:15

And like for those little girls of colour, seeing Belle for the first time. I've seen the videos on Tiktok. I've seen it, they tear up, they cry. It's amazing it beautiful, neurodivergent and disabled people deserve that on the main stage.

Steph 1:10:31

Yeah.

Oliver 1:10:32

And it is important that my dream and my hope is to one day, start a company that can serve both those things and do those things to create new neurodivergent work and also find the neurodivergent in the work that already exists because it is there and it is not hard to find. Yeah, you just have to be willing to work and think about work differently.

Steph 1:10:54

Yeah, just be a bit creative.

Oliver 1:10:55

And be a bit creative and go all, But we've always done it like that!

Steph 1:10:58

Doesn't mean we have to.

Oliver 1:10:59

We're creative people, which doesn't mean we have to. we're always pushing against boundaries in our tech, you know, that theatre magic. Sometimes theatre magic is just casting well. like putting a person who can sing beautifully on stage, you don't need all the light. I mean, lighting and sound and a great band is amazing. But a good story well told with good people is going to go a long way more than

Steph 1:11:27

That's what people want to see. I think, that's what we see theatre for, yes.

Oliver 1:11:32

And I think that's what I want to keep doing with Santa Clause Is autistic. And the No Bang Theory. is keep growing the potential of the storytelling that we're doing. And not just going or no one disabled approached me. So there are no disabled people in my program, go out and find them. they're out there, you can find them.

Steph 1:11:54

Make it easy for them to find you as well.

Oliver 1:11:57

Make it easy for them to find you. And if you are time and time again, not seeing those people come forward. Ask yourself why? What is it about your brand that makes it feel like you're not accessible? And look at the programming choices that you have made up until that point? And I think you'll find the answer to that question. That if you're doing works that have inherently ableist characters that rely on inherently ableist tropes repeatedly, then you're probably not going to get interest from neurodivergent audiences and disabled audiences. Because disabled audiences don't want to go to the theatre and be miserable and sad and feel like they're being attacked.

Steph 1:12:40

Yeah, made fun of or...

Oliver 1:12:42

Made fun of or like, we're just not going to go, we're gonna stop coming. And that's normal. And not every minority group will do that. I think so simple, but so often forgotten. There are differences in minority groups. But if you're doing it for one minority group, how hard is to think basically, we should do this for another? Yeah. And they'll go, oh, doesn't work quite like that for us. But from a starting place, you're probably gonna not be starting from scratch.

Steph 1:13:15

Yeah.

Oliver 1:13:15

And if you can not start from scratch and think, Oh, we're doing this queer work. So we need queer people involved. We're going to partner with queer charities, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you don't think to do that with disability because then you're not thinking about it wide enough.

Steph 1:13:33

I guess it's being all inclusively inclusive, like intersectionally inclusive, because there's lots of crossover between queer people, autistic people, people of colour, it's just being diverse in general.

Oliver 1:13:44

And it's intersectional. And it's, I think, part of the problem. And I think this is true to certainly in the invisibly disabled, you look at a person of colour and you know, fairly quickly, they're not white, you can look at me and not know that I had, am autistic or that I have a disability. And certainly queerness you don't look at a person and know they're queer instantly. But it's a different thing that I think companies are looking to be seen to be diverse. So they'll go to people of colour, and they'll go to openly queer people that when they show off this season, they can go look where diverse because we have for queer people that they can point to and show on a poster very quickly. You put me on a poster, it looks like you put another straight white man on the poster.

Steph 1:14:32

Yeah.

Oliver 1:14:32

And you have to justify going I know we've not just cast another straight man, white man in this lead role. We're actually being very diverse by casting and neurodivergent person in this lead role. Even though the part doesn't call for a neurodivergent person. We're just casting them because it's the right thing to do. You have to actively say that in a way that you don't with people of colour with insert X minority group here and I just find that problematic.

Steph 1:15:02

Yeah

Oliver 1:15:02

And I think about this a lot that a lot of ground has been made in First Nations storytelling in every area through grants. And through government mandated opportunities that you have to employ a certain number of First Nations storytellers. We're going to create special grants for First Nations storytellers. We're going to create special groups, awards, things for First Nations people to get their stories told and to push that foot. And I think that is great. And that should continue to happen. And that should never stop. But if for every for First Nations, works, grants, opportunities, castings, whatever that you do, you do one that is neurodivergent, or disabled, guaranteed mandated, that's going to make a massive difference. Yeah. Because currently there are none. 

If you put it even one every year, and one consistently every year, at every company, it can always be me and it shouldn't always be me. I'm not egotistical enough to think it can and should always be me. But if you create as the currently is the First Nations prize for playwriting, if there is a disabled Playwriting Award every year, that suddenly means you need to find at least one or two disabled led plays in STC MTC, QTC, The State Theatre Company of South Australia, Belvoir, all the different theatre companies are suddenly going to start looking for neurodivergent, and disability led plays, because they want to win the award. And they want the recognition of programming the play that won that award.

Steph 1:16:45

And then there's opportunities for those playwrights to start

Oliver 1:16:48

Opportunity. And that is growth. And that is, because people are ego driven. People want to win awards. That's fine. I want to win awards, and I've won plenty, I want to win more

Steph 1:16:59

Positive reinforcement...

Oliver 1:17:00

That's positive reinforcement, let's make it positive. Let's make it easy for those companies to program those things. Because they know if they do that they suddenly stand a chance of winning an award.

Steph 1:17:12

Exactly. Yeah. It's not that hard. Everyone wins.

Oliver 1:17:15

Everybody wins. And look, would I like to win those awards, yeah I would, do I think I could win those awards get I can. But I also know there are others that are just as good as me, if not better.

Steph 1:17:27

Also, you want some competition, right?

Oliver 1:17:29

I want competition. And that's good. And I'm not egotistical about it in such a way that I think, if they created this award, I'm automatically going to win. And I'm going to win every year. And it says no competition, and it will make my career blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, not. But I think if we reinforce that positively and maintain it on every level, then suddenly, we're gonna start seeing a difference. The problem with that strategy is it costs money. And until the government and until people start showing an interest and funding it, the solutions are simple, but they cost money to do Yeah,

Steph 1:18:07

But it's money that's worth it. 

Oliver 1:18:09

It's money that's worth it.

Steph 1:18:10

Well spent.

Oliver 1:18:10

Because in the end, it is going to make you more money. Like, I'm not against capitalism, I understand capitalism. And it is a necessity of the world that we live in. And it is a necessity of theatre, and film and all art is capitalism is a fundamental part of it. But you can make such a huge difference to how you tell your stories, and how you engage in it. If you start thinking, let's invest here, and we might lose a bit of money in the short term, but long term, we're gonna make so much more money. Yeah. And it means taking a risk. Yeah. And so many companies are scared of taking a risk. Because if it doesn't pay off, they've lost a lot of money, and particularly small and medium companies, which is where we're going to start seeing the change in the first instance, can't afford to take risks.

Steph 1:19:02

Yeah. But I feel like if they do it, right, and if they do it in the way that is sustainable, that actually is inclusive, they're more likely to succeed. And that's the thing, it does take a lot of work in the first instance. But if they do put the work in, it's like anything, they'll get that return.

Oliver 1:19:20

It's a top-down versus a bottom-up approach. We and proactive versus reactive, you can't have one without the other. The mainstream companies need to start doing their bit. Because right now the small to medium companies are doing all of the work and of reaching a point going we can't do any more. Yeah, until the other side of it. Start Meeting.

Steph 1:19:42

Picks up some of the slack. Yeah, for sure.

Oliver 1:19:44

And once they start picking up some of the slack and it starts becoming easier and cheaper and they find the models and they find the money and they find the funding that will then support and raise the next generation of companies. The next Chloe Hayden is going to come out of that The generation of people that grow up watching and loving Chloe Hayden, are not that far away. No, like, if you're 16, 15, watching Heartbreak High and seeing yourself on screen for the first time and go, I want to go into film, I want to go into theatre, I want to do that. Then maybe got two years of school left, and then they're at University and University is a whole other kettle of unaccessible bullshit. Yeah, that is a conversation that I...

Steph 1:20:28

*laughs* That's another podcast episode for another time.

Oliver 1:20:31

That is another podcast episode for another time. But in how we train artists in order to get the recognition on a university level. But that's not that far away. We need to start doing it now. Because it will take 25 years to make seismic generational change. That's fine. And that is normal. The tragedy of changes that it takes time. Yeah, but until we start, we can't finish. Exactly. And I think if I was leaving it on that is just start making accessible theatre and film and accessible change, because you're gonna see results. And I'm doing my bit with Santa Clauses autistic and the no Bang Theory, but I can't do it by myself. I need your listeners to start coming to my play. You know, I can't do it without audiences. I can't do it without industry support. It takes a village to make change. Yes. And we just have to start.

Steph 1:21:27

Yes. And work together. totally

Oliver 1:21:30

And Work together.

Steph 1:21:36

Tell us the dates and times for Santa Claus is Autistic. So you've got dates in Brisbane at the moment? 

Oliver 1:21:43

Yes, I have dates in... we have one in Redlands on the on Thursday night, which I think is the 23rd. But you probably won't get that up before then.

Steph 1:21:52

Hopefully, you've had a wonderful opening night by this time. Yes.

Oliver 1:21:55

Then our next dates are December 7, December 15. And December 23. At the PIP Theatre in Brisbane, capital P small I capital P theatre, you'll find it.

Steph 1:22:11

It's in Milton, is that right?

Oliver 1:22:13

That is in Milton? Yes.

Steph 1:22:15

Good old Milton!

Oliver 1:22:16

Right in the centre of Brisbane. It's a beautiful little venue. It's intimate, seats about 100. And so people, it's gonna be amazing. We're employing, including me and some other people on the team 13 autistic neurodivergent people, and an additional four neurotypicals. So that is one of the first shows that I can think of that has a majority neurodivergent team on it. That's incredible. And I think that is spectacular. And yeah, I'm really excited. And it's a great show, it'll you'll laugh until you cry. I think it's beautiful. It is got all the things that the no Bang Theory has, if you have already seen that event theory, but it is bigger and more community focused. And I think that's great.

Steph 1:23:05

Fantastic. I'll make sure that the links are in the Episode Notes. So you can book tickets. Do you have an idea of when you might be bringing it to Melbourne or other parts around Australia?

Oliver 1:23:15

No, I don't it hopefully it will be successful. My plan is, if not 2024, 2025. My goal for next year is, I'm having conversations with a bigger, bolder, I don't want to say names in here, in Brisbane. And then the hope is that will then lead to either late Christmas period 2024 or 2025 to start thinking about touring...

Steph 1:23:42

Awesome.

Oliver 1:23:42

... is the hope.

Steph 1:23:43

Sounds like a good plan. And is there any chance of seeing No Bang Theory again? Have you got any plans to tour?

Oliver 1:23:50

I will keep doing the No Bang Theory as long as people let me keep doing the No Bang Theory. We have a date in Toowoomba in February. And I'm trying desperately with all my might to get No Bang Theory to Sydney. But that is proving difficult at the moment. And then who knows what the future holds. I like touring the show. I think it's a great show. And the more kind of interest and conversations that can happen, the more is early touring can happen. So I'm going to be a part of this podcast if you'd like to sound at me. I am at ATwistOfOliverHp on Instagram and threads and ATwistOfOliver on the ghost of Twitter. I still haven't deleted that app, I... who knows.

Steph 1:24:39

Neither have I, who knows.

Oliver 1:24:41

It's there. Send me a message. I try to respond as best I can. And just tell me what you're about. You know if you're neurodivergent and want to talk about this stuff, I'm always happy to talk about this stuff. I love talking about this stuff. I mean, we're an hour and something into this podcast and I'm still talking about the stuff that I could probably talk about it for another hour and something.

Steph 1:25:03

And I would be happy to, if I didn't have to go to bed at some point. *laughs*

Oliver 1:25:09

I'm always here for a chat and I want to keep this conversation going. Because I think that's how we make a sizable change is by talking about it.

Steph 1:25:16

Yeah. If you have seen No Bang Theory, or you're interested, and you're excited, tell everybody, not just neurodivergent friends but neurotypical friends too, because I think everyone should see your awesome work. And Santa Claus is autistic. I have one last question for you, which I've been thinking about since I saw o Bang Theory. Are all the jackets, yours and did you buy them for the show? Or did you just already have them on your, in your closet?

Oliver 1:25:42

No, they're all mine. And no, I did not buy any of them specifically for the show. I just have them in my wardrobe. And I slowly have collected them over a number of years. There's a tailor that I love up here that does them for me. He's amazing. And yeah, my jackets are kind of my brand and I love them all daily.

Steph 1:26:05

I love them too. I love colourful, glittery, bright clothes. So I was obsessed with your jackets. Will we see more jackets in Santa Claus is autistic,

Oliver 1:26:17

There are a couple of new jackets... Santa Clause Is Autistic is we have a kind of Red and Black Christmas thing going on for all our costuming. So they're all red and black is the vibe for Santa Clauses autistic. But there are a couple of jackets in Santa Clauses autistic, I can promise you that.

Steph 1:26:37

I'm very excited to see them. Thank you so much, Oliver, this was such an awesome chat. And just like you said, I could talk about this for so much longer. And it's so nice to get more perspective on theatre nd representation in theatre because it's something we've really only dabbled in on this podcast. So yeah, it's been a really fascinating and awesome chat. I'm so excited to see what you do.

Oliver 1:26:59

Thank you for having me on. I love talking about it. And as soon as I saw, I was trying to find people to invite to Melbourne who'd seem to have an interest and vibe that I wanted to get into the room. And as soon as I saw the podcast Psychocinematic I'm like, yeah, no, I need to get that person along, whoever runs that podcast, because that seems just the right vibe for what I'm after.

Steph 1:27:22

Awesome, well I'm glad you appreciate the pod, I'm really glad that you've come on the podcast too. Really happy to have you here for the same reason.

Oliver 1:27:30

Thank you.

Music Break 1:27:31

Outro finishes

Steph 1:27:34

This podcast is not designed to be therapeutic, prescriptive or constitute a formal diagnosis for any listener. For a longer version of this disclaimer, please check the Episode notes on your podcast app.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai