Fold in the cheese and confabulate on neurodivergency in Schitt’s Creek

TRANSCRIPT: Episode 62 - Let's fold in the cheese as we confabulate of ND coded characters in Schitt's Creek (with Marie Camin)

September 19

Stephanie Fornasier 0:00

Before we start the show, I have a huge favour to ask you. I promise you, it'll take two minutes to do. I'm taking a punt and getting everyone I know to vote for the Psychocinematic podcast in the listeners choice category of the Australian Podcast Awards. your vote would mean everything to me. So open your browser right now. I'll wait. Go to Australian podcast awards.com. Click on the listeners Choice Awards Vote now link. search for Psychocinematic spelled PSYCHOCINEMATIC. Click on the first option and submit. check your email including your spam because to make your vote count, it'll ask you to verify it there. You are all sweet, gorgeous angels and I'm just so thankful to have an audience who listens and enjoys this podcast. I love you all to the moon and back. Okay, here's the episode

Music Break 1:10

intro starts

Marie Camin 1:10

I think when I first started watching Schitts Creek mom knew I'd watched it and I didn't tell her because she was like you're doing Alexis. Because I just took on so many mannerisms. Which is another thing some of us do when we get really into a movie or a TV show.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:11

Welcome to Psychocinematic a podcast where we analyse depictions of mental illness and disability in popular films and TV. I'm your host Stephanie Fournier. If you love our podcast and want to give us some support, make sure you're following Psychocinematic podcast on Instagram, Tik Tok and Twitter. And check out our website Psychocinematic podcast.com. For access to special bonus content episodes, Early Access, stickers and contribute to our regular fundraisers, join our Patreon. Starting from $3.50 a month you can be the coolest Psychocinematic listener there is.

Music Break 1:46

intro finishes

Stephanie Fornasier 1:47

I'd like to start the podcast today by acknowledging the traditional owners of the land on which we're recording this podcast today, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation and pay respects to elder's past, present and emerging and acknowledge that we are currently sitting on stolen land. And I'd like to introduce to the podcast today, Marie Camin, did I say your last name right.

Marie Camin 2:07

Yeah, that's it.

Stephanie Fornasier 2:09

Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. Marie, you're someone I've been following on Instagram for a while. Who is a neurodivergent neuroaffirming psychologist, and a big advocate for autism awareness, ADHD awareness, etc. Do you want to tell us a little bit about what you do all about yourself?

Marie Camin 2:28

Yeah, I will. Yeah, I'm a psychologist. And so I do a lot of assessment, identifying autism and ADHD, as well as supporting clients and then more recently branched out into supervisions. So we can upskill multiple psychologists at once in how to be neuroaffirming, which is yeah, what I'm passionate about.

Stephanie Fornasier 2:52

And I really love that because as a psychologist who isn't neurodivergent, and has worked so long in my career with neurodivergent kids, I gain a lot of information and advice from yourself in your snippets and things that you share on social media, and also your live chats as well, which I've seen a few times. And also, you were on the lady yellow ladybugs panel as well. Yeah,

Marie Camin 3:17

yeah, I did a panel with them on neuro affirming alternatives to the standard kind of behavioural interventions that we do with kids. And then on day three, I shared a bit of my lived experience as well separately, which was, yeah, that was huge. And never thought I'd do that. I never thought I'd even tell people I was autistic as a psychologist, so

Stephanie Fornasier 3:38

it hasn't, how's that changed your professional life and personal life for you sharing that with everyone?

Marie Camin 3:43

Um, well, a lot of my clients knew anyway, either they were like yeah Marie, it's so obvious. Or I in the language that I use when I say like, oh, brains like ours, and what we need. And so yeah, a lot of my clients knew anyway, but I think it's, it's been better than... I was a bit scared about kind of stigma and discrimination. And that happens, and it has happened, but the overwhelming majority has been really positive. So that's been good.

Stephanie Fornasier 4:11

Excellent. I feel like in my experiences, when practising with kids like sharing a little bit about how things relate to me as well to be like, Yeah, I've gone through this as well. And, you know, I can relate to that sort of experience. It can be really powerful when you when you're, you have a client particularly working with kids.

Marie Camin 4:27

Yeah, I find, especially with sensory stuff. Like I find a lot of kids downplay what they're feeling and will say, you know, I can see them squinting, and I'm like, I can put the blind down and they're like, no, no, it's fine. And then immediately, I'm like, No, I know what it's like to not be able to focus because the sun's clearing in your eyes. I'm just gonna put it down for you. And then they're like, ah, yeah, and then we'll go on a tangent about Yeah, that kind of sensory experiences and because they've got that permission to I guess, after I'm a bit casual about it and validate it and say, oh, yeah, I feel that too.

Stephanie Fornasier 4:59

Yeah, How was it because you were diagnosed as an adult is that right?

Marie Camin 5:03

Yeah, so I self identified Well, I figured out I was autistic around 15 years of age. But then I wasn't diagnosed until 30. Because I couldn't afford an assessment. And I was also really scared to pay, you know, a few $1,000 to be told I wasn't autistic when I know I am. Because I

Stephanie Fornasier 5:20

true.

Marie Camin 5:21

I'm a psychologist, and I was like, who's gonna take that seriously? Like, you work with people, you must have people skills and be empathetic, like, yeah, and I'm also autistic. So yeah, but ADHD, I was 30 as well. And I actually had no idea. I was an ADHD, which is hilarious now, because I'm like, oh, yeah, very hyperactive. But I just thought it was anxiety, I guess.

Stephanie Fornasier 5:44

So did that come with that diagnosis of the autism was ADHD sort of as a result of that as well, that diagnosis

Marie Camin 5:51

not so much. I did them separately. And the ADHD came from working with kids with ADHD, and then noticing so many similarities with what I was like, as a kid. And I was like, oh, maybe this is something I should also be considering. And I wasn't convinced when I went to see the psychiatrist, and he spoke to me for 10 minutes. And he's like, yeah, you definitely have ADHD. And I was like, no, but yeah, I don't know. He just the way I was talking, maybe it was like, a million miles an hour, I suppose.

Stephanie Fornasier 6:24

Yeah, obviously, it took you so long to actually get that diagnosis. Once you initiate the process. Was it even as a psychologist? Was it difficult? Or was it fairly smooth?

Marie Camin 6:33

So it was fairly smooth? Because I think because I knew what to expect, because I do it for a living. Yeah, I think if I didn't, I probably would have felt a bit disoriented because it's very quick. And then there's no kind of post support afterwards, which I know is a lot of people have that experience as well. But I was okay. I think the thing that took me by surprise was even though I knew I was autistic, having someone else validate it initially was a huge relief and felt really validating. And then I think for a few months after that, I noticed a lot of social anxiety crop up where I was really hyper aware of my differences when before I wasn't really,

Stephanie Fornasier 7:10

because you've got that validating.

Marie Camin 7:11

Yeah so like someone else can notice that my communication style is different. And so then I became a bit hyper aware of like, what are other people picking up on this is this way people don't like invite me to things or say that I'm a bit intimidating when they first meet me and things like that. So it made me really aware and reflecting and observing all the time, which was exhausting.

Stephanie Fornasier 7:32

Yeah, for sure.

Marie Camin 7:33

But that kind of faded after a while.

Stephanie Fornasier 7:36

That's good to know. So for anyone who, because there's a few people in my life, who feel this way, feel that they're autistic, but sort of thinking, I know, I'm probably autistic. I don't know what I will get out of paying 1000s of dollars to have someone say what I already know, what advice would you give those people? I think so ADHD?

Marie Camin 7:54

Yeah, yeah, self identification is valid. And to be honest, every adult I've assessed who has spent years thinking they could be autistic and done heaps of their own research. They're not wrong. Like, I've never had anyone be wrong about being autistic, when they strongly relate to it and have done so much reading on it. So I think it is valid and you don't really need a diagnosis unless it depends what you what you need it for. So I only decided to make it official because I started doing a PhD and I needed adjustments in the PhD, like being able to have meetings from home instead of on campus. So that's why I got it. But unless you really need NDIS funding or accommodation, something where you need the official diagnosis, you don't really need one. It's such a personal decision.

Stephanie Fornasier 8:45

Yeah, that's good advice.

So on that note, you decided what we're going to talk about today.

Marie Camin 8:58

It was hard. I had so many things I wanted to talk about,

Stephanie Fornasier 9:01

but it was very funny when you sent me an email and said stop everything. We're doing Schitts Creek, and I was like, yes. Okay, good. Yeah. What made you decide to choose this one,

Marie Camin 9:11

it's one of my favourite shows. And one thing that many not all, but many autistic people do is watch their favourite things on repeat. So I've seen it. I can't even tell you how many times every few months I'll watch it from beginning to end. So I love it. And I think because it's my favourite show. I just didn't. It didn't even pop into my head when I was thinking of things to talk about. And then I just put it on Netflix one day and I was like, Oh my God, of course. Of course I would talk about this. On Psychocinematic There's just so many characters who are coded autistic, ADHD and ADHD, i reckon Jocelyn is the only neurotypical to be honest.

Stephanie Fornasier 9:52

I'm so glad you picked this because it's also like one of my comfort shows as well and I watched it over during the first COVID locked down, and I also had a newborn. So I associate it with breastfeeding or pumping. Or just trying to just have a lie down. I think this rewatch was maybe my fourth rewatch, because it's just so easy. So easy watching. yeah.

Marie Camin 10:16

Yeah, really short episodes, and they just flow really nicely into each other. So sometimes I'll just put it on and all of a sudden event season three, I'm like, how did that happen?

Stephanie Fornasier 10:25

So I might just talk a little bit about the plot. I'm definitely not going to go into everything that happens, just a general overview. But interestingly, the concept came from Dan Levy, who wondered how wealthy families like in the Keeping Up With The Kardashians, etc. In reality TV, how they would react if they lost all their money. Dan was also inspired by the fact that Kim Basinger bought a town which he thought would be useful location shoots but then lost a lot of money on it. So with those two concepts together came Schitts Creek. So the premise is that the wealthy rose family video store magnate Johnny played by Eugene Levy, his wife and former soap opera actress Moira played by Catherine O'Hara and their pampered adult children. David played by Dan Levy and Alexis played by Annie Murphy lose their fortune after being defrauded by their business manager. They really rebuild their lives with their sole remaining asset, which is a remote town named schitts Creek, which Johnny bought for David's birthday in 1981. As a joke, which I always found so funny. You would buy a town as a joke,

Marie Camin 11:29

I know, that's how much money they had.

Stephanie Fornasier 11:32

And it's kind of repeated in many episodes that Johnny is so bad at buying gifts, like when he buys Stevie the maker suitcase full of makeup, and also the Christmas episode where he just goes to a rummage sale and they're just random bits of rubbish. But it turns out that Schitts Creek as the best gift he could ever buy.

Marie Camin 11:50

Yeah, they had somewhere to live. Yes.

Stephanie Fornasier 11:53

So the Roses are forced to relocate to Schitts Creek moving into two adjacent rooms and a rundown motel while the family adjusted their new lives, Their well to do attitudes conflict with the town's more provincial residents, including Mayor Roland Schitt played by Chris Elliott, his wife Jocelyn (Jen Robertson), and their son Mutt (Tim Rosen), the motels manager Stevie budd (Emily Hampshire), town council members, Ronnie Lee play by Karen Robinson and Bob Curry played by John Hemphill and vet Ted Mullins

Marie Camin 12:23

Love Ted

Stephanie Fornasier 12:24

he's so sweet and very hot.

Marie Camin 12:25

Yes.

Stephanie Fornasier 12:27

Played by Dustin Milligan and Jazzagal member and cafe Tropicale waitress Twyla Sands play by Sara Levy. And what follows is a lot of growth, character development, learning, loving and bonding. Is there anything you wanted to share about the show before we sort of get into the nitty gritty of the characters? Your own thoughts about it?

Marie Camin 12:47

No, I just love the character development in this show. I start, I don't know if this is other people's experience. But when I started watching it, I was not a fan of this family. at all.

Stephanie Fornasier 12:58

Same I watched a few episodes and was like, I don't think I like this.

Marie Camin 13:01

But I know my my mom had watched it. And she knows me so well. And she was like, Marie, I promise you're gonna love it. So I pushed through, because I trusted her word. And yeah, it gets so good. And I ended up falling in love with this family. So. And with Ted, I'm not gonna lie. Ted is great.

Stephanie Fornasier 13:21

Yeah, I think it's definitely a grower show. And a lot of people will say, I didn't get into it, and you have just kind of like, just keep watching. It gets so good. And you become they just become your own family members.

Marie Camin 13:32

Yes.

Stephanie Fornasier 13:33

So should we get stuck into some of the characters?

Marie Camin 13:36

Let's do it. I'm so excited.

Stephanie Fornasier 13:38

Same, I guess we've got a little list. But who would you like to particularly start with? Is there anyone in particular?

Marie Camin 13:43

Is there anyone in particular you would like to start with?

Stephanie Fornasier 13:46

Can we leave Moira til last. I feel like we're gonna have a lot to say about Moira.

Marie Camin 13:49

We're going to have so much to say about Moira. we could start with Ted.

Stephanie Fornasier 13:52

Alright lets start with Ted. You had some thoughts about how he was maybe coded?

Marie Camin 13:56

Yeah. So it took me probably till the second or third watching through of this show to pick his autistic traits. Because he is really diplomatic and friendly. And so I think it's easier to miss in him. But he is Yeah, and even in my work, I see such diversity in autistic people like huge diversity. And there is this little, like subset of people who are just so gentle and really passive in their social relationships. Like they're happy to kind of go along with what everyone's suggesting, as long as it doesn't go against their kind of morals or ethics. Yeah. And he fits that kind of profile. So I did miss it the first time around. But yeah, he has a few, a few traits.

Stephanie Fornasier 14:46

One thing that you mentioned is the puns which I love about him. I love a good pun.

Marie Camin 14:51

Puns! Yeah, so this is something as well that I've noticed with with autistic people, Puns comes from For those who don't know, we have a tendency to interpret language literally. Which comes in really handy when thinking of wordplay and puns and playing with language. So, yeah, I have plenty of people in my life who are just epic at puns and autistic, but here he loves his puns. And I love how towards the end of the series, Alexa starts saying puns as well and it's like the little bonding moment. It's very cute.

Stephanie Fornasier 15:29

Yeah, totally. I really like like what you said then about, you know, sticking with his values, and just kind of going with it. I think a good example that you said in the notes was how there's that competitive veterinarian Miguel, who uses his body to get clients and Ted doesn't see how that he's got very strong ethics about, you know, you know that's not the way to do it.

Marie Camin 15:49

yes, yeah

Stephanie Fornasier 15:50

And then when he accidentally has his shirt off, when the

Marie Camin 15:52

when they film, the webcam of the bunnies?

Stephanie Fornasier 15:55

The bunnies, That's right. And he, you know, has heaps of engagement because he's taking his shirt off. And that's just like, what? to him

Marie Camin 16:03

Yeah, and he was really kind of, I don't know, distressed, almost about the fact that people had seen him with his shirt off. And he felt like he was exploiting the bunnies. And it was just, he's so great. But yeah,

Stephanie Fornasier 16:17

I think another thing too, is that real love for animals, too. I know, I've met a lot of autistic people who have this beautiful relationship with animals. And have that passion.

Marie Camin 16:26

I've met a few who have never been around animals. So they they actually think they're not an animals. They're like, Oh, I don't, I really don't like animals. And some people don't. And that's fair. But yeah, I have seen people that have just never been around animals. And then they meet like, my cat, or they meet an animal in the clinic or something. And they're like, oh, wow, this is so easy. And they just love being in the company of animals. I'm like, Yeah, you don't have to talk to them. Yeah, they get it.

Stephanie Fornasier 16:53

You can have a conversation, and they just listen.

Marie Camin 16:54

Yeah. So easy to connect with.

Stephanie Fornasier 16:57

Yep. Totally. And then I guess also with Ted is his his relationship with Alexis, and how that changes over time? And how he sort of just kind of goes along with what he thinks Alex- Alexis wants, yes. But he sort of misinterprets that

Marie Camin 17:11

Yes. he does. Is there a specific example you're thinking of?

Stephanie Fornasier 17:14

I'm sort of thinking about when he asked Alexis to marry her? And she says, Oh, I would, but I have to go. I have to leave.

Marie Camin 17:22

Yeah. We're relocating. Yeah. Which is his his kind of literal interpretation of her and taking people on face value. Yeah. So he's like, Oh, you're moving away. That's why you don't want to marry me. So then, when he finds out, she's not moving away. He's like, Oh, great. So we're getting married now. And she's feels really awkward in that in that situation. But yeah, it's that really kind of literal or pragmatic thinking of, I suppose a neurotypical might be more inclined to be like, Oh, could we maybe chat about ways we could make long distance work? Like, oh, she said, she's moving and she wouldn't then be keen on long distance. So I'll just leave it kind of thing?

Stephanie Fornasier 18:00

And not sort of also interpreting between the lines that she probably doesn't want to get married

Marie Camin 18:04

and missing that she could be being polite and hinting Yeah, that she doesn't want to marry him. Yeah.

Stephanie Fornasier 18:08

But I think towards the end of the season, end of the series, when they are back together again, and he goes to the Galapagos I can't say that word

Marie Camin 18:18

Galapag-uh-s

Stephanie Fornasier 18:18

Galapagus. He's much better at interpreting what Alexis needs and wants and yeah,

Marie Camin 18:25

they really get to know each other better.

Stephanie Fornasier 18:26

I think they just get to know each other better, Yeah, they're more vulnerable with each other. Put their masks down a little bit. So they are able to really understand what each other needs and wants for a relationship.

Marie Camin 18:35

Yeah, absolutely. And I even loved Alexis, in that moment. And I know, we're not talking about her, but I'll forget for sure. She has kind of goes and talks to Twyla and about moving. Because the context is Ted has done so much for her in their relationship. And she feels she hasn't really given much back I mean by way of sacrifices. And so she kind of goes to Twyla for confirmation that like, oh, I shouldn't go to the Galapagos, right, like told me that's the right decision. And Tyler kind of points out, but he's sacrificed a lot for you. And maybe it's your turn. Yeah. And then Alexis gets it and it clicks for her that that has been maybe not quite equitable.

Stephanie Fornasier 19:18

Unbalanced. Yeah. Yeah. I guess if you interpret Ted is not picking up on some cues. It's a good message that neurodivergent people can pick up on cues once they've sort of figured out. the environment, like what the rules are,

Marie Camin 19:31

Oh yeah we have really good pattern recognition. Yes. Once you figure out the pattern, yeah. So once you've got enough data, like you've observed someone for a while you can really so it's more an intellectual thing you learn as a skill rather than it being just innately something your brain can decode.

Stephanie Fornasier 19:47

Yeah, yeah.

Marie Camin 19:48

That is a great example. I never thought of it that way. Thank you.

Stephanie Fornasier 19:50

I'm glad I got it. Right. So let's talk about David.

Marie Camin 19:54

Oh my god. I love David.

Stephanie Fornasier 19:58

I could watch David say his things all day. So what do you think about David? I get a sense he's probably autistic coded. But what are your thoughts?

Marie Camin 20:08

So I would say Ted, Ted has traits. I'm not convinced I could get through the whole series and have enough of the like DSM criteria for Ted. David, I absolutely can like it. He's just autistic coded all over the place. Yeah, I love it

Stephanie Fornasier 20:26

What sort of traits do you think David has that makes him autistic?

Marie Camin 20:30

There's just there's just so much and I know, I like generated a huge list, David, like, just broadly, he has really struggled with his social relationships. And, like, yes, we would consider the context of he was very wealthy. And there's a level of disconnection that comes with that. Yeah. But then even amongst wealthy people, he wasn't really connecting with others. So I think just broadly, he has really struggled to connect with people. There's also a lot of hints that he perhaps didn't really understand the social relationships that he's been in. So yeah, I think he spoke a lot about having dated some the photographer, he dated the photographer who very clearly is not like a monogamy person. Yeah. And he has totally missed that and was really hurt by him being with other people. And then also about about bullying. So in season three, Moira mentions that she doesn't want David to relive being bullied. And then David says it wasn't that bad. And kind of Moira says that's because he was blissfully unaware. And I have I've seen kids being horrifically bullied and they really aren't picking up that that's what's happening, which I think is kind of protective in the moment.

Stephanie Fornasier 21:46

Definitely.

Marie Camin 21:47

But then I also work with adults who only now are starting to process that they were bullied because they didn't pick up on it as kids,

Stephanie Fornasier 21:54

especially if they continue those connections with people that have really Yeah, treated them quite badly. Yeah.

Marie Camin 21:59

Yeah, exactly.

Stephanie Fornasier 22:00

It's interesting how you say the social relationships that he hasn't quite understood or been able to be himself and I read Dan Levy said that David's character is someone who has spent his entire life being someone else. Yeah. Which I thought was a really good you could definitely see that in that he sort of discovers who he is more in Schitts Creek. Yeah. And even when they are going to go back to New York, he's sort of tempted by that idea, like, back to my friends that I have really already. Yeah. And then Stevie's. Like, they're not coming to your wedding. So

Marie Camin 22:31

yeah, so he's also misjudged the, the level of friendship that he had with those people. That's another really common experience and quite distressing for autistic people is they're not sure, like, so we kind of don't really hang out with people if we don't like them. Like it's not something we will just fake doing. Unless you have to do to be safe. Yeah, but so generally, if we want to spend time with people, it's because we want to be their friend. So it's really hard to gauge when why someone else would want to spend time with you and talk to you about things that are personal if they don't really want to be your friend. Like that's really confusing. So yeah, it's a great example of him. Kind of Misjudging other people's. Yeah, experience of that interaction

Stephanie Fornasier 23:13

Yeah, or what they get out of the friendship. Yeah, yeah. Anything else?

Marie Camin 23:17

Oh the teenagers stealing from his stores? Yep. That is, I felt that one. that has happened to me before. Not exactly the same. But like when you when someone's ulterior motive is really not obvious to you, but it is to everyone else.

Stephanie Fornasier 23:30

Yeah. And the way they're able to sort of manipulate him so well. Are they Oh, I really liked what you're wearing.

Marie Camin 23:35

Yeah. Because he's, he really loves his sense of style is something he's very proud of. So they, they compliment his outfit. And he's like, Oh, they're so nice. And Alexis is like, oh they are 100% stealing from you? When you're not looking,

Stephanie Fornasier 23:49

I guess on that note to his, his fashion is very so unique, very unique, vary all the same sort of colour and style, but more different as well, like I love his fashion is so good. And it's a bit of would you say it's sort of like a bit of a hyper fixation, that sort of fashion style or special interest, I guess.

Marie Camin 24:07

Yeah, I reckon it is a special interest. And he's got so much pride in his clothes and clothing choices. And then I remember the kind of distress he's in when he goes to take them to a market. And they're like, oh, we'd get 20 bucks for these and like, really, kind of devaluing his items. And he was so affronted. Yeah. So yeah, I do. I think it's really special to him. And he the way he expresses himself as well, really? Yeah. Yeah. So Patrick Patrick, I'm not sure I feel like Patrick could be neurotypical. But whatever he is, he's delightful. And he just is so attuned to David Yeah. And so calm and regulated a lot of the time. It's just so lovely. So the first time that Patrick tells David that he loves him. David's reaction is so autistic. And what usually happens in those scenarios, a lot of the time is the person who has said that they love you gets offended, because they're like, Oh, you didn't say it back, or there's an expectation that you would say it back. But a lot of autistic people, like we don't want to say something we don't mean. Yeah. And it might not be like, I don't think I could love you like, maybe I will. But like, right now, that wouldn't be the truth. So I don't want to say that. Yeah. But Patrick handles it beautifully. And he says, oh, gosh, now I can't remember. But something about acknowledging that would be stressful for david.

Stephanie Fornasier 25:32

Yeah, he's already having a stressful day doesn't want to add stress, to your day.

Marie Camin 25:35

your stress to your day, because I know you've had a hard day, but I love you. And I was like, oh, that's gorgeous. He's really,

Stephanie Fornasier 25:41

and he makes a point of saying, don't say it back, but you don't have to say it back, I just want to tell you.

Marie Camin 25:45

Yeah, no pressure, no pressure. It's just me sharing how I feel, which is just a dream for so many of us. I think we'd be really grateful for that kind of, and I know with my friends, I have friends who are like that as well. But they'll say, I would love to see you. But if you don't have capacity this week, or next week, that is absolutely okay. Yeah. Yeah. Which is yeah, it's it takes so much pressure off.

Stephanie Fornasier 26:09

It's giving, giving that safe zone and that safe space, like I would love this. But I understand and I want to accommodate what you need at that time.

Marie Camin 26:18

Exactly.

Stephanie Fornasier 26:18

And I think Patrick does it so beautifully. Like, and even when he gets really frustrated, like when they're doing the hike, and complains the entire time.

Marie Camin 26:28

And about sensory stuff as well. Yeah, exactly. The wind and the smell or something. I can't remember what he

Stephanie Fornasier 26:34

Yeah he doesn't like, it's very particularly attuned to smells as well, like he tells, after they have a hug He says to Stevie, did you wear deodorant today?

Marie Camin 26:43

So true.

Stephanie Fornasier 26:44

But yeah, when Patrick proposes to him, even the way he tries to make it something David would love and then even buys him like, the five rings, similar to what he already has?

Marie Camin 26:54

Yes In gold!

Stephanie Fornasier 26:54

Yeah. So he really just gets what makes David David and and accommodates that in so many ways, without giving up himself as well. And while still being who he is, which is a perfect relationship.

Marie Camin 27:08

Yeah, I agree. I think they have such a beautiful, and I must say like, as an autistic person, even though David is is coded autistic, and it's not said that he is, it still was so powerful for me to see representation of a healthy relationship for an autistic person. Because yeah, like I look, I suppose so many people have said things like to me that I'm high functioning, or I'm like, Oh, you would have been Asperger's back in the day or whatever. And then they think they're giving me a compliment. And it's like, because so much of what people see is my career. Yeah. And I can pull all of my resources into my career. Yeah, but I really struggle with relationships. Big time. So seeing what what it would look like to have someone understand your needs and meet them was so powerful for me. Yeah. I loved it.

Stephanie Fornasier 27:53

And it also shows you shouldn't settle for someone who doesn't do that. Because it is out there. It's obviously fictional, but.. I think it is out there.

Marie Camin 28:01

No I've seen it. I've seen it in real life. It's not as common, but it definitely exists. So yeah, it's that's or nothing, I'm afraid if

Stephanie Fornasier 28:09

yes that's the way it should be

Marie Camin 28:10

If anyone asks. There's one more thing I wanted to say about David is because I think it is so representative of so many adults experiences who aren't identified or late identified. He thinks he has anxiety. Yes. yes. Right. And this is he gets overloaded so much. And he says he's having an anxiety attack. And then he closes the curtains and gets under the doona. He needs low sensory input, and I'm like, mate, you are overloaded. That's, that's not a panic attack. They feel pretty much the same. But the cause is, is different. It's sensory.

Stephanie Fornasier 28:40

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And also like touch as well. Yeah. very particular about touch.

Marie Camin 28:46

Yeah, he is

Stephanie Fornasier 28:47

Yeah. Yeah. So that sort of sense that because Yeah, I noticed that too. Like some of that panic around his driving tests, too. And yes, me like I was someone who I have generalised anxiety disorder. And driving was something I was really stressed about.

Marie Camin 28:59

Oh, there's so much to stress about so much,

Stephanie Fornasier 29:01

So much. You have to keep track on and that lack like, Well, you're in control of this car that could be out of control? Yeah. I related very much to that scene in particular.

Marie Camin 29:11

Yeah, learning to drive is really stressful. Yeah, yeah. I don't know how anyone learns to drive manual.

Stephanie Fornasier 29:15

Oh yeah nah

Marie Camin 29:16

Because that's like extra things, you have to think about on top of the already.

Stephanie Fornasier 29:20

No thanks.

Marie Camin 29:20

lots of things. yeah.

Stephanie Fornasier 29:21

Yeah, one last thing I'd like to say yes. It's sort of not really related to autism. But his analogy, or maybe it sort of does, because I know lots of autistic people love analogies to describe things

Marie Camin 29:31

Yeah

Stephanie Fornasier 29:32

his analogy for his sexuality, like I like yeah, like the wine, not what the label is.

Marie Camin 29:37

Yeah. The type of wine just wine, I just like wine. Yeah.

Stephanie Fornasier 29:41

Which I thought was really good.

Marie Camin 29:43

Yeah. So some people do prefer to talk about their feelings in that indirect way. It's just less stressful or confronting, so talking about it through an object is really common for autistic people to do. But then of course, you've also got autistic people whose language is more literal and do struggle with analogies. Yeah. So again, so much diversity. Yeah.

Stephanie Fornasier 30:04

yeah. Which is a really good thing to keep in mind. Everyone's brains still work in very different ways

I think on that note, should we talk about Stevie?

Marie Camin 30:19

Oh. Stevie?

Stephanie Fornasier 30:20

Because their friendship is a big part of

Marie Camin 30:21

Stevie is low masking autistic, like she doesn't even attempt to be anything but herself. And I love it.

Stephanie Fornasier 30:28

Because I think she started that conversation about the wine too. She's like, I like red wine. But some people like white wine, what wine do you like so she just gets David

Marie Camin 30:37

they do. They click.

Stephanie Fornasier 30:38

she sees the world in the same way.

Marie Camin 30:41

Yeah, like her facial expressions. She's very flat in her face. Her voice is quite monotone. I've noticed she grimaces a lot. So she does that kind of awkward grin when she's uncomfortable yet, so she might not naturally smile. No. Yeah. So it might look like she's laughing at people. But she's just uncomfortable. So there's like, there's so many really classic. I think traits of autism in Stevie

Stephanie Fornasier 31:07

Yeah, yeah. I love her sarcasm too, which I feel like is a bit of a coping strategy for her as well

Marie Camin 31:14

yeah

Stephanie Fornasier 31:14

her storyline of sort of trying to figure out what she wants to do as well, like how she's kind of been stuck in the motel most of her life. And she sounds like she's got a bit of a complicated family history, where she inherits the motel from her aunt. And then she goes on that journey to sort of figure out what she wants to do. So she tries to do the Larry air air hostessing, which is just not her. And then.

Marie Camin 31:40

Larry Air *in lazy sensual voice*

Stephanie Fornasier 31:42

And then she ends up deciding that what what she wants to do is kind of right in front of her. So I guess that sort of sense of sort of rolling with it and not really having a direction. Yeah, and not feeling like you have a lot of control and then taking some control of that. And that being quite freeing for her

Marie Camin 31:58

Yeah, and the what happens when she does realise what she wants to do. And all of a sudden, it's like, powerhouse. She's like, here's a list of all the motels in the area. Here's what you know. And that is so yeah, I noticed as well in the adults that I work with, if if they're at university, for example, they love the structure. Yeah, even though there are lots of there's a lot that's stressful. They're like, I'm working towards this degree, which means I do this unit and that unit, and it's all very structured. And then sometimes leaving uni is really stressful, because they're like, oh, that doesn't exist in the world. You don't have many goals that you you have to set them yourself.

Stephanie Fornasier 32:34

Yeah, exactly.

Marie Camin 32:35

So I think that's a great example of that as well. Once she has a direction. She just structures the heck out of it. And it's great.

Stephanie Fornasier 32:42

She just flies really. Yeah, yep. I really love Stevie. and also just her general she's not into the sort of mainstream stuff and she dresses pretty much the same with, for comfort rather than style.

Marie Camin 32:54

Yes. For comfort. And so unapologetic about it. Yeah, I love it.

Stephanie Fornasier 32:58

Yeah. I love what she does with the makeup to show Johnny

Marie Camin 33:02

to prove a point.

Stephanie Fornasier 33:02

It's a bad gift. And their friendship is so so lovely.

Marie Camin 33:07

It is they just they just get each other there's such a good representation of autistic friendship. They're really blunt with one another. Yeah, I love I love their friendship.

Stephanie Fornasier 33:17

Can I read out this quote that you're put in from the Schitts Creek fandom wiki? I think it was?

Marie Camin 33:22

yeah

Stephanie Fornasier 33:23

"until she meets a kindred spirit and David Stevie was by nature aloof, introverted, had few friends and dislike social interaction," which she still does.

Marie Camin 33:32

Which. is. a description of autism.

Stephanie Fornasier 33:36

But yeah, David and Stevie just became a perfect match.

Marie Camin 33:40

They clicked really quickly as well. That's always a dead giveaway. I find I find whenever people are like, Oh, I really struggle to make friends. And then all of a sudden, they're like, Oh, I made this friend that I've known for a week. I'm like, oh, ok

Stephanie Fornasier 33:52

and we just get each other straight away.

Marie Camin 33:53

Yeah.

Stephanie Fornasier 33:54

Should we move on to Alexis?

Marie Camin 33:57

Yes. Alexis is probably my favourite character. I mean, I love them all in their unique ways. But she is extra special. I just see so much of myself in Alexis. And one thing mom said to me when she watched it and recommended it to me is she was just like, yeah, you have a lot of similarities. Not in our kind of, I don't know, belief system maybe or values. I'm not fancy bags and rich people is not my thing. But definitely in her day to day life. Like the room. Her side of the room is just so messy. And David's is immaculate. I didn't get that kind of minimalist, clean autistic vibe. I'm very much ADHD dominant in that one.

Stephanie Fornasier 34:45

And it sounds like you would say that Alexis is probably ADHD dominant

Marie Camin 34:49

Adhd is the one that stood out to me the most with Alexis, and it was ages before I picked some of her autistic traits. agents like it would have been the fourth watch through probably.

Stephanie Fornasier 35:01

Well, let's start with her ADHD traits. Apart from a messy room, which is typical. My sister has ADHD and that was, every day was Steph.. Maz clean your room. Also had to clean my room too. But yeah,

Marie Camin 35:15

yep, it's it's so hard because you clean it and then you feel really accomplished. And then you're like, Oh, you have to do this like every week. That's boring

Stephanie Fornasier 35:23

Too much

Marie Camin 35:23

I don't want to do that. Yeah, so that that one for Alexis. She's also just all the stories she tells about her life where she just set it off here and there and met this guy. And in a week she was in the Greek islands or whatever. And I was like that is classic.

Stephanie Fornasier 35:38

Yeah. She's gotten to trouble a few times, certainly as well with the law.

Marie Camin 35:42

Yes, she's been arrested.

Stephanie Fornasier 35:44

And the way she talks about those stories, too. She often will sort of go off a tangent.

Marie Camin 35:49

Oh, yes.

Stephanie Fornasier 35:50

relate this to something that happened to her

Marie Camin 35:52

in the middle of a conversation. Yeah. Oh my god. This reminds me of the time I was hanging out with Zac Efron. And it's like, off, she goes, yeah. Also the milk.

Stephanie Fornasier 36:00

Oh I Love that

Marie Camin 36:02

That kills me. That entire scene made me so anxious, vicariously, Because I, I felt for Johnny, I was just so stressed for Johnny. So the context here for listeners who haven't seen it is Johnny asks Alexis to buy some milk to sell because it's this rare, unpasteurized I think milk. And he goes, let's just get like a little bit, just like an ounce or something. A pint? Maybe I forget what measurement he uses

Stephanie Fornasier 36:30

Something American. Yeah.

Marie Camin 36:32

And Alexis comes back with like, 13 vats of milk, like a lot of milk. Very expensive. And of course, you have to sell it quickly because it's fresh. So Johnny was quite stressed about that. And he's just saying to her, like, how did you like, Why? Why this many? She was just like, oh, you said to get like a few thingies of milk.

Stephanie Fornasier 36:54

And she says something like, I was wondering why you would want $300 worth of milk

Marie Camin 37:00

Yeah, so that kind of like not checking the details. Impulsive? Yeah.

Stephanie Fornasier 37:04

Yeah. Do you think as well as the fact that she didn't end up graduating high school? Yep, she missed out on graduating. And then she, I guess her in academics. There's some, you know, some frothiness there, but then goes on to do high school and then study and she's actually quite good at it.

Marie Camin 37:23

Yeah. When it's something she's interested in.

Stephanie Fornasier 37:25

Yeah exactly.

Marie Camin 37:26

So that's also quite classic of ADHD is? Well, I think the misinformation out there is that ADHD means that you would find it hard to study or work always. And that's not the case. So usually, if it's something of high interest, the brain can stimulate itself to start tasks and complete tasks much easier than when it's something that you don't really want to do, or it's not interesting, or it's boring, or it's not urgent. So yeah, the fact that she finds her kind of her niche and what she's really interested in and then can go and excel at it is, is Yeah, after struggling in high school is really quite classic of ADHD.

Stephanie Fornasier 38:08

Yeah, for sure. And I guess the the singles week that she puts together when when she gets into that she just really goes for it.

Marie Camin 38:15

And under pressure too Yeah, it's always like really short timeframe, Moira just like, well, tomorrow, we're having a red carpet event tomorrow. And Alexis just whacks it all together. Yeah. In very short amount of time without falling apart.

Stephanie Fornasier 38:27

Yeah, she can sort of get in the zone and get it done.

Marie Camin 38:31

Yeah, with a sense of urgency.

Stephanie Fornasier 38:33

I was reading a little bit about how she modelled Alexis's sort of idiosyncrasies. Yes, and her gestures on the Kardashians and that she sort of like her little arms

Marie Camin 38:45

T Rex.. T Rex arms *in unison*

Stephanie Fornasier 38:46

T Rex arms *in unison*. And then I was reading that often. People with autism will call them their little T Rex arms.

Marie Camin 38:52

Yeah. it's so comfortable to kind of just leave them hanging in the air like that. Yeah, for some people.

Stephanie Fornasier 38:58

But apparently she modelled it like off how the Kardashians or Paris Hilton or whatever would hold the little bags. Yes. Oh, I have them on their arms. And then she's like, what if we just took away the bags? Yes. had both arms and little and

Marie Camin 39:11

yeah, yes. It's such a contagious I would say mannerism like I noticed. I think when I first started watching Schitts Creek mom knew I'd watched it and I didn't tell her because she was like you're doing Alexis. Because I just took on so many mannerisms. Which is another thing some of us do when we get really into a movie or a TV show.

Stephanie Fornasier 39:30

Yeah. I have to admit I've been booping people a lot.

Marie Camin 39:33

Boop! boop! That's adorable when she does when she goes into Ted's office and does her little tippy taps with her fingers on his filing cabinet like she's got so many little

Stephanie Fornasier 39:43

and yeah, her hair flicks as well.

Marie Camin 39:45

Yes of course

Stephanie Fornasier 39:47

is there any particular in terms of autistic traits that you saw from her

Marie Camin 39:51

Yeah so like I said, it took me a long time to pick these up I think because she's so ADHD dominant, and this reflects Real Life. like people who are ADHD dominant do generally go missed for being autistic as well. Yeah. Because it really overshadows how they socialise. You know if they're chatty and sociable, and yeah, it can really mask some of the autistic traits they have. But an absolute classic from Alexis that just resonated deep in my soul was when Mutt shaves his beard without telling her. And she just freaks out. She's like, why would you do this without speaking to me? And, and she's so the way she's looking at him like she's genuinely disoriented and upset. Yeah, when I was a kid, my mom came back with a pixie cut, and she had really long hair. And I cried, and I couldn't even explain. I was like, I like it. But I don't know. And I was so upset. And it's just because it's different

Stephanie Fornasier 40:48

It's a really big change that you have to get used to.

Marie Camin 40:50

Yeah. And unexpected

Stephanie Fornasier 40:51

I also feel like she masks really heavily. And she probably did a lot of masking in New York. And because when she her friends are in town, and she catches up with them. I feel like we sort of saw Alexis take off the mask a little bit in Schitt's Creek and just be sort of more natural in herself. And then as soon as the friends came back, she's like, back into that sort of ditzy girl sort of mood.

Marie Camin 41:15

It's really stark isn't like, yeah, I remember feeling really uncomfortable in that scene the first time I watched it, and I wasn't sure why. And now I can see that it's Yeah, masking in general, seeing people mask and also seeing myself mask on camera. So uncomfortable. Yeah, it feels really inauthentic and gross.

Stephanie Fornasier 41:33

And I wonder if she didn't even realise she was doing until, you know, years later, she sees them and just feel yourself slipping into that. Yeah. And then you can you know, the progression of that episode. Is her realising that these aren't really Yeah, I don't she needs Yeah, I don't know life anymore.

Marie Camin 41:49

Yeah, I don't want to do that. I don't want to be around these people. I was really proud of her. There was so much growth in that. so

Stephanie Fornasier 41:54

Yeah I really love that episode. And I think that's one of the best things about Alexis is she seems so superficial, and snobby and quite selfish. But when you get to know her when, as she grows throughout shits Creek, we've discovered that she's actually so selfless and loving and not actually superficial, or Yeah, she does sort of rediscovers that about herself.

Marie Camin 42:16

Yeah, I agree. She's such good character development. I love I love her character. There's also quite a few instances of her kind of missing unspoken things. So there's a scene where previously Ted and Alexis kiss, and then they run into her parents at David's store. And the other thing is, before they kiss, Alexis finds out she performed really well in her completing high school as an adult, whatever they call that they're the GED. I think she gets a really good score. And then they kiss. And then they run into her parents. And Ted says, Alexis has some big news. And he's referring to the grades, and that she passed. And she says Ted and I kissed that that's just one example. But there are so many of those as well kind of peppered throughout the series where she really misses the context clues. Yeah,

Stephanie Fornasier 43:08

I guess that's relevant in in the milk in the vats as well

Marie Camin 43:12

Yeah. Oh, that was a great combo of autism ADHD there with the milk. Absolutely.

Stephanie Fornasier 43:17

Yeah. I think another thing I noticed as well as she needs noise around her Oh, she needs stuff happening. Like when she's dating Mutt and Mutt just wants to just chill out and silence she just can't handle it. She just finds it really uncomfortable.

Marie Camin 43:31

Yeah, that's definitely the the ADHD coming through there. She just needs constant stimulation. And yeah, exactly.

Stephanie Fornasier 43:38

It's a very common on the in the entire rose family, but her fashion as well. And she's always very particular with how she looks. And she always does her hair flawlessly. She's always got a new piece of jewellery. So that sort of

Marie Camin 43:52

you know what I'm this is again, just my attention to detail as an autistic person. I watched this and I'm like, there's not enough room in that wardrobe for all the outfits she has. Where are they?

Stephanie Fornasier 44:05

And same with Moira Rose? Yeah. How did they fit them all in? But yeah,

Marie Camin 44:09

they don't they just have a different outfit every episode. And I'm like, that's four five seasons. I forget

Stephanie Fornasier 44:15

Six

Marie Camin 44:15

six seasons worth of outfits in a very small motel.

Stephanie Fornasier 44:19

One thought I had to in the last episode is did my readers just have that outfit? That sort of celebrant outfit lying around waiting for the time

Marie Camin 44:28

Just waiting for it's moment? Oh, I love that.

Stephanie Fornasier 44:41

Well, is there anything else about Alexis you want to mention

Marie Camin 44:43

I think that's a really good segue to Maura.

Stephanie Fornasier 44:45

Yes. Let's talk about Maura. I mean, what do you think? Because she fits in so well with the rest of her family and a potentially autistic diagnosis but then maybe, does it really fit her or is there something else?

Marie Camin 44:58

There's something else going on with Moira... I can't pick it. I don't know whether it's bipolar, maybe. But she's she's, she's certainly got many, many traits. autistic traits. Definitely. But and if we if we're operating on the kind of like, statistical likelihood if you've got two kids who are neurodivergent, one of the parents is, it's if you had to choose, it's more erratic, right. Like, it's not Johnny, you could be Johnny. But more is the more obvious one. Yeah, so I think so. But she also really struggles with her mental health as well. Yeah, yeah. And so I'm not, I don't know, I'd be keen to get your thoughts. I feel like some of what she goes through could be conceptualised as autistic burnout and overwhelmed locking yourself in a closet. So many of us have done that. Because it's dark in there, and no one annoys you. So it's a good place to kind of regulate. But there's a lot else. Yeah, there's more going on with more like this a few scenes where you're like, is she hallucinating? Yeah, I'm not sure.

Stephanie Fornasier 46:05

I think also, there's a lot of alcohol and drug use background too. So I think you that could be used as a way to help cope or to dull some of the overload or, you know, the stress of being a Hollywood star, etc. But is there also, you know, just general, addictive addiction going on there as well. She has a lot of narcissistic traits.

Marie Camin 46:35

Yeah.

Stephanie Fornasier 46:37

And, like, the way she, she's, she's obviously a good like, I don't want to say she's a bad parent or a bad mom. But she definitely has does though some little narcissistic parenting style attributes. Like, she often will put Alexis down in terms of her looks. Nothing is ever, ever her fault. There's always someone else to blame, even when it's clearly Yeah, she's the only person who's created this drama happening. And she'll say, like, I think it was when Johnny Rose has gone to New York to try and get the deal with the motels. She had. Like she heard that it didn't go well. And so she's saying, David and Alexis, you haven't been giving him good enough vibes. So it's your fault. And it's like how? So you know, just the way she treats her kids? Particularly David is she's very enmeshed with David like David's sort of her almost golden child.

Marie Camin 47:36

Yeah, well, and do you know, I see this play out in families in practice as well, like the parent, the neurodivergent parent with the similar presentation to their child, they usually have quite a strong bond. And they really struggle parenting the child who is also neurodivergent, but a completely different presentation to them. And they might have competing needs, or no shared interests is the other thing. Like obviously Moira and David share a really eclectic fashion style. Yes. Alexis is more of a masking vibe. Yes. So yeah, they don't really kind of connect. When they sit at lunch, and they're trying to have a conversation. Alexis, and Moira, its so painfully awkward. They just have no idea how to connect. Yeah, yeah. When they're one on one.

Stephanie Fornasier 48:22

Yep. True. And I guess there's nothing to suggest that. That doesn't mean she does. That doesn't mean she doesn't have autism. Yeah, that was a weird sentence. But there's just a lot more, I guess. She seems to be the most like she's, to me, She's the most selfish character. Yeah, she's got her own interests at heart, even by the end of the season. Like I think she's grown as well. But she's still very much everything's about me. I like to be the centre of attention. And like when I think it was Grace is going away. She thinks that the going away party is for her because of course, everyone knows that I might be going to New York, even though I haven't told anyone. So yeah, very self focused.

Marie Camin 49:05

It is, which is also not that uncommon in autistic people. And I think this is something I like to advocate for, but I have to be really careful because it upsets people really easily. But we have so much diversity in our population of autistic people that we do have people with narc traits, and we do have people who are not very nice. That exists. We're not all like left leaning social justice. Like we have so much diversity in the autistic population. So I think it's, it's actually what I love about this show is it gives you such a diverse range of people and it even though most people wouldn't know they're watching good representation of neurodivergent traits, which is a bit of a bummer. Yeah, but a good representation.

Stephanie Fornasier 49:53

Yeah, yeah, I just I That's why I was very, a little bit nervous about coding or You know, describing more because we don't want to see a negative representation of someone with autism. But of course there are like you say there are, yeah autistic people out there with narcissistic traits. And she's maybe she's one of them.

Marie Camin 50:15

Yeah, and there are also Sheldon Cooper's yet like the reason those stereotypes exist is because those people exist, but we also have a lot more other people as well. So the more we brought in that the better. And what's disappointing is that the only characters that really get like Canon autistic are the stereotypical ones like The Good Doctor. Yeah. And that's the end of Sam from Atypical Yeah, Atypical would have been the other show I would have done if not Schitts Creek. His mom and sister are clearly autistic as well. Yes. But it's not said no, Sam is the only one with the diagnosis. So

Stephanie Fornasier 50:52

We covered that with Eric Michael Garcia. Yeah

Marie Camin 50:55

That's right. I love Eric. Hi Eric

Stephanie Fornasier 50:56

He's so good. Hi Eric.

Marie Camin 50:57

You'll probably listen to this.

Stephanie Fornasier 50:59

Yeah, that's exactly right. And frustrating that the, the one that's stands out and the one that is given the actual label, or Canon are the more stereotypical and often also often played by non neurodivergent Actors. Yeah.

Marie Camin 51:14

And Cis men. Usually

Stephanie Fornasier 51:17

Yes. true. I also, I just in terms of Moira like some of the little quirks she has like, clearly she's a quirky.

Marie Camin 51:23

Oh, yeah.

Stephanie Fornasier 51:24

Character, like her accent.

Marie Camin 51:26

hahaha

Stephanie Fornasier 51:27

Do you think that's a bit of an autistic trait or the way she has that emphasis on syll-ah-bles

Marie Camin 51:32

Not.. Syll-ah-bles I love that. Micro-waahvey. She doesn't say that. That's just the thing that's in my head lately from whoever is saying that on social media.

Stephanie Fornasier 51:41

Yeah someone, I heard that too

Marie Camin 51:42

Nigella Lawson, I think? anyway. So Moira, yeah, so So one thing actually, in some of the observation measures that you use in diagnosis is you look at someone's tone of voice or, or the intonation or basically just how they sound, because quite a quite a lot of autistic people do have an atypical sound or the vowl, how they use their tone of voice. A bit. Again, not all, but you might say we often have kids with an American accent or an English accent with a lot of kids. And I have to ask, Is anyone in the family British, or did they do they grew up in England or? And usually No, and it's just this thing? You know, and there's a bit of a misconception out there, that they just watched a lot of TV and it's like, yeah, but so do neurotypical kids and they don't develop these accents. So yeah, there's usually a different quality or tone in voice in autistic people. So I think more is, accent is yeah, definitely distinct. I love to use of words that you don't usually hear her vocab is phenomenal. Yeah,

Stephanie Fornasier 52:47

Catherine O'Hara was saying that she thought of Moira as someone who was learning a new word every day and wanted to insert it in the conversation in the most interesting way. Yes, yeah, it definitely comes across like that.

Marie Camin 52:58

I just I love I just if people have not watched it with captions, I recommend it because I just love pausing it and looking up the words and learning them and integrating them into my own vocabulary. They're great.

Stephanie Fornasier 53:12

Yeah, she's fantastic.

Marie Camin 53:13

A disgruntled Pelican is a personal favourite. Stop acting like a disgruntled pelican. Fantastic.

Stephanie Fornasier 53:20

Also, her wigs seems to be a huge part of her life. They all have names and personalities. Yeah. And they need to be treated in a certain way.

Marie Camin 53:27

yes. So that personifying,

Stephanie Fornasier 53:28

In a climate controlled storage box or whatever.

Marie Camin 53:32

Yeah.

Stephanie Fornasier 53:32

And she also says she has a spreadsheet.

Marie Camin 53:34

Yes. I mean, who doesn't have a spreadsheet for this special interest collection? I do. No. but no, that's true. So collecting things, the tendency to collect, but then beyond that, to want to organise them or classify your collections or something is quite an autistic trait. And yeah, the personifying of objects as well. So these wigs have names and she feels very attached to them. So that as well, I've had some people in assessments talk about when they go shopping, they don't want to take a particular, when they take a can of food off the shelf. They feel bad for the other cans, that they didn't choose them. So there is that kind of, and in the DSM it, it says, they call it something really unaffirming. I can't remember it now. I think it's like, unusual attachment

Stephanie Fornasier 54:24

Attachment to objects. Yeah. Yeah. Which sounds like very judgy. And I think on that note to a lot of people that have this view that people with autism don't have empathy, or don't have emotional attachment to people or, which is like the opposite of true. And there's often so much empathy, that it's difficult to manage.

Marie Camin 54:42

Yeah. A range of, of empathy. And I mean, I would love to see a good measure of empathy because we don't have one or the one that's used is just strange when you read it. It's like it even asks you 'Do you care for animals and feel bad when something happens to animals' and then that's not even one of the items that they score, it's like a filler item.

Stephanie Fornasier 55:03

Ok?

Marie Camin 55:03

And that does that displays empathy and plenty of autistic people would answer that as Yes. But anyway, not a good measure. But I'd be keen to get a good measure. So that way we can look at actually what's the type of empathy people feel in the population both autistic and non autistic, because I've met plenty of non autistic people who aren't great in the empathy department. And again, plenty of autistic people who are hyper empathetic and have low empathy. So I think there's just so much diversity there again. Yep,

Stephanie Fornasier 55:32

Yep, definitely. And I guess just her emotionality too she,

Marie Camin 55:36

Yeah she's very labile

Stephanie Fornasier 55:38

like, I think the first episode has her just screaming at random bursts of emotion. Which is she's very funny. But yeah,

Marie Camin 55:47

Yeah she's, really like, a lot of things happen that she's really reactive to. And Johnny just has so much patience for that. And it's just like all your mom's having one of her moments. Leave her alone today.

Stephanie Fornasier 55:58

Yeah. Yeah, she very much manages her. I do really love as well, even though sometimes that I feel like there's sometimes a bit codependent, maybe Johnny and Moira's relationship and their marriage because it's often something we don't see a lot, well, maybe more really low rung sitcoms, where they just love each other. And they have fights but they love each other. But they do genuinely like when she goes away and feels like he really misses her. Yeah, we don't see a lot of that in real life. But yeah, it just seems to be a genuinely. Like, a good marriage.

Marie Camin 56:31

yeah. It does. And you know, actually, as we've been having this conversation today, I'm thinking so many of the relationships in that show, are really loving. Yeah.

Stephanie Fornasier 56:41

and healthy.

Marie Camin 56:42

It's nice. Yeah. And it's nice to see that because I feel like TV shows generally are really black and white. So it's either they just hate each other. Or they love each other. And it's really not realistic. Yeah, but this has a really good blend of look, there's challenges and there's disagreements, but we love each other. Yeah,

Stephanie Fornasier 56:59

yeah. Especially given them sort of modelled off reality TV stars, where I guess the premise of Schitt's Creek is if you take the reality TV family and put them in a town take all the richness and all the money away from them. You know, how would they cope with that? And it shows that even though, you know, they've sort of palmed off the parenting to the nanny, and they are very superficial people, they still have such a strong bond and connection that they can grow together. Which Yeah, I don't know if the real real life reality styles will be able to do but it'll be interesting to see.

Marie Camin 57:34

You know, sometimes I've come up with these little experiments in my head. And I'm like, No, that's why we have ethics Marie. You can't do that.

Stephanie Fornasier 57:40

Would not get approval. Is that everyone who we think is neurodivergent? Or is there anyone else?

Marie Camin 57:45

Those are the ones I could I could probably speak to the most I mean, I feel like there are also other characters that don't get hashed out as much but who definitely have traits like Roland Schitt So many, especially in the like, language department like he's very literal.

Stephanie Fornasier 58:00

Yes thats true

Marie Camin 58:01

Misses so many cues. So I feel like there are definitely other characters who do come across with traits

Stephanie Fornasier 58:08

With Roland, I read, there's this Twitter thread

Marie Camin 58:12

right

Stephanie Fornasier 58:12

When I when I googled and it was just like labelling all the characters, whether they were neurodivergent or not, and they said, Roland is a neurodivergent person's view of a neurotypical person.

Marie Camin 58:26

Right?

Stephanie Fornasier 58:26

That was their opinion anyway, like he's so apparent to start with. And he's so like, uncomfortably unpleasant, but then you get to know them. And they're actually quite a nice person. And they've got depth. He turns out to be quite endearing and part of the family almost

Marie Camin 58:42

Yeah, and super loyal. That loyalty, because I think I didn't really quite get just how much he cared about the Roses. until there's a scene. And I can't remember which one it is now. But there's a scene where he really defends them. And I remember being like, Oh, I didn't expect that

Stephanie Fornasier 58:59

In New York when they're, he overhears them making fun of Johnny.

Marie Camin 59:03

Yeah. And that's like, right at the end of the series, and I was like, Wow, I did not expect like I knew he liked them, but I didn't expect that level of commitment and loyalty. Yeah, so that surprised me. But

Stephanie Fornasier 59:14

I have to say I never... Roland is my least favourite.

Marie Camin 59:17

Yeah, he didn't grow on me

Stephanie Fornasier 59:18

and that was probably what put me off watching it the first time because that also the actor Chris Elliott is often plays that kind of gross character.

Marie Camin 59:25

oh does he? Yeah

Stephanie Fornasier 59:26

like he's in a lot of Farrelly brothers movies. I think like There's Something About Mary right like a similarly really gross guy. Yeah, I don't know. He's just he's sort of represents like bad comedy, tome Yeah.

Marie Camin 59:38

Yeah, it's yeah, it's not my type of comedy either. I don't find his character funny. I find him a bit frustrating. I'm just like, oh, when's the scene gonna be over? Yeah,

Stephanie Fornasier 59:47

I don't care about him and Jocelyn's whatever. on that note too. What about Jocelyn?

Marie Camin 59:51

Jocelyn I feel is so neurotypical. But so pleasant.

Stephanie Fornasier 59:57

She's very good at being frustrated, but like putting a smile on anyway. Yep.

Marie Camin 1:00:02

Yeah that's what I mean. She's very Yeah, very neurotypical. So she she, and you can see her frustration with hinting. Yeah. And so many people not picking it up, because she's surrounded

Stephanie Fornasier 1:00:13

Yeah Like when she wants David to plan her baby shower. She's like, Wouldn't it be great if we had someone like you to plan the baby shower? Or you?

Marie Camin 1:00:23

And it goes like, right over his head?

Stephanie Fornasier 1:00:24

Yeah.

Marie Camin 1:00:25

Yeah. So she does. She does that kind of politeness, talking around an issue type of thing. And then gets frustrated when people aren't picking it up. Yeah. And then you see other people get frustrated with her because like, Well, why don't you just say that? Yeah. So she definitely gives off big neurotypical vibes. And also Ronnie. Yeah, I feel like Ronnie. gives big NT vibes

Stephanie Fornasier 1:00:47

Yeah.

Marie Camin 1:00:48

My favourite is when she's meant to be doing the David's bathroom in his shop. Yeah. And he sees her out at lunch. And one of them kind of calls her out on it, like, Oh, so you don't have time to do the bathroom. But you're here having lunch? And she's like, Yeah, I'm having lunch with the person supplying your tiles, which is like such a neurotypical thing to do. It's like, I'll take you out for lunch and befriend you. And we'll build this kind of relationship. Yeah. Which Yeah, it doesn't.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:01:12

But to David, it's like

Marie Camin 1:01:14

Why? yeah

Stephanie Fornasier 1:01:14

You should be doing my bathroom now, why are you here?

Marie Camin 1:01:17

Why are you having lunch?

Stephanie Fornasier 1:01:17

This is logically not the right thing you should be doing.

Marie Camin 1:01:19

Yeah. And also such a classic, double empathy problem. So like, viewing that as the only reason you'd be having lunch in the middle of the day is if you're not working and trying to charge by the hour for lunch. Yeah. When it didn't. He didn't even go to or maybe she is networking for my bathroom. Yeah. So yeah, I think that says a lot as well.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:01:39

Yeah, definitely. What about Twyla?

Marie Camin 1:01:42

Yeah, I loved your notes on Twyla because I'm not sure if I'm not sure because she's vague or if we just don't get enough of screen time with Twyla.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:01:51

Yeah, I feel like there should be a spin off with her because she's she intrigues me, because she's sort of just curious. Yeah, she's also a jazzagal, but we don't really know anything else about it. Apart from that she dated Mutt

Marie Camin 1:02:04

Yeah That was strange to me. Yeah. I didn't see

Stephanie Fornasier 1:02:07

No.They didn't seem like a good match.

Marie Camin 1:02:08

no.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:02:08

And in the like, the final season, we find out that she actually won like $45 million. Yeah. And is choosing to just stay at the cafe

Marie Camin 1:02:17

because she loves working there.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:02:18

She does. And she doesn't want anyone to know because it changes things. Yeah.

Marie Camin 1:02:22

That yeah, but so that's

Stephanie Fornasier 1:02:23

interesting character.

Marie Camin 1:02:24

She's such an interesting character and I can't look at I think you've you've popped here that she's clearly had a super traumatic past. We hear about some really awful, awful stories about her family. Yeah. She's very over friendly. And lets a lot of people walk all over her. Absolutely. Like these are things that without any other information is hard to tease apart the effects of trauma.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:02:49

Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm wondering if she's just had a she's probably got some complex PTSD perhaps. And that's how she presents the way she does because she's just comfortable and safe where she is. Perhaps. she's not a super assertive person. Like if she's holding a bunch of plates to the cafe and someone says, go do this thing. She just does it.

Marie Camin 1:03:09

Yeah.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:03:10

You can tell she's a bit miffed by it, but she doesn't ever sort of say um I'm busy.

Marie Camin 1:03:14

Yeah exactly

Stephanie Fornasier 1:03:15

The way Alexis treats her sometimes is quite mean.

Marie Camin 1:03:19

Yeah. No, I'm 100% Agree.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:03:22

I think the only thing we haven't really touched on is Johnny.

Marie Camin 1:03:24

Yeah, Johnny is a mystery to me.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:03:26

I sort of see him as neurotypical. But funnily enough, he reminds me a lot of my dad who is not neurotypical. But it's also they have similar kind of looks

Marie Camin 1:03:35

yeah

Stephanie Fornasier 1:03:37

but that he's very logical. He sort of keeps the show running and gets things done, yes, to get everyone all the things they need, which could be sort of a strength of someone with autism or it could be neurotypical.

Marie Camin 1:03:50

So this, this throws me even in the assessments that I do with adults, whenever I get a white cis man who is a professional, it's hard work, I have to dig and dig. Because when we view through the social model of disability, it's like you would only see experiences of disability where the environment doesn't match that person's needs your skill set. And I think in the current society that we live in, it's easier to get by if you're a working professional as a white sis man. Yeah. Because a lot of the bluntness and directness will come across as like being assertive and having leadership skills being masculine and masculine traits. Yeah, so they can kind of sneak under the radar there. And because of that level of privilege, as well of being able to get jobs just based on kind of their experience, not so much their people skills in an interview. Yeah, we just don't see as much disability. That's not true of everyone. I know plenty of cis men who are really struggling. But in a man like Johnny, it could be Yeah, that he is autistic, but we just don't see his struggles because he's so well suited.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:04:58

Yeah

Marie Camin 1:04:59

but the fact that he was screwed over by his business partner and had no clue has always kind of like, bothered me.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:05:05

Oh yeah

Marie Camin 1:05:07

That really trusting nature of like we're friends, they would never do anything. Yeah,

Stephanie Fornasier 1:05:12

just not notice some of the hints that maybe he's not worth trusting. And also he's very much a businessman and able to do a lot of that high profile business work and franchising, etc, which could be the way his brain really works. Like for a lot of, I don't know if this is a stereotype, but a lot of white cis men go into doing like engineer jobs or in in those management roles

Marie Camin 1:05:37

management positions, yep

Stephanie Fornasier 1:05:38

Where they can do a lot of complex work, because that's yeah, meets their brains

Marie Camin 1:05:41

And in a management position, you are controlling the environment. So you can kind of advocate for things to be done the way that makes sense to you. So that's another way that the environment ends up really fitting with your needs.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:05:54

So yeah, it's interesting, but I also find that he gets very frustrated with like, Alexis, and Moira and David, in a way that a neurotypical person would

Marie Camin 1:06:02

Absolutely. yeah, yeah, he does. And that's what I like, I see evidence of both and it throws me

Stephanie Fornasier 1:06:09

although maybe he's logic can become a little bit of a setback in that way. Like, why would you think about it this way? Why don't you think about it my way? Like not.

Marie Camin 1:06:17

That's probably the only thing that I really pick up on with Johnny is he does get stuck in his idea. Yeah, he does struggle to adapt when someone else changes it. Yeah. So that is one thing that I think comes up. But again, again, I'm not, I'm not sure and probably haven't been around enough neurotypical men of his kind of age and demographic to know how to compare it. But I'm just not sure if that would be a classic trait of someone who's used to being a manager for their whole life.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:06:44

Yeah, yeah. used to managing. Yeah. And if someone's not fitting the role that they're supposed to fit, then yeah, the response would be to sort of manage them out. And he can't do that with his family.

Marie Camin 1:06:53

yes. Exactly.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:06:55

I really love Johnny.

Marie Camin 1:06:56

He's such a dad vibe.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:06:57

Yeah. I think it's also Eugene Levy's played a lot of dads. Yeah. Has anybody that we haven't touched on? That's worth... I guess, Patrick, was one last one. But I see him as quite neurotypical.

Marie Camin 1:07:09

Yeah I agree. I've met some absolutely lovely neurotypical people in my time, who are just so flexible and accommodating. And naturally, just like that, and I'm not a huge fan of the narrative that neurotypes get along with neurotypes, just black and white like that, because I don't think that's the case. I think it's more likely that we would get along with someone with a similar communication style. But there's also heaps of miscommunication that happens. And I think that in general, what makes a good connection is being curious and open to listening and learning. Which Patrick absolutely shows.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:07:45

Yeah, he's so he really just sits back and observes, yeah, David, and falls in love with him by doing so, which is really lovely. And yeah, it doesn't try and change him as well, or try and expect him to do something that he wouldn't do. Yeah. Which can often present relationships of having different expectations on someone based on what you want, but not necessarily what they need or want. Yeah.

Marie Camin 1:08:09

Yeah. Nailed it. I have nothing else to add to that.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:08:11

All right. Alright. So in preparation for today, I had a little bit of a look at anyone on the cast who have said that they're neurodivergent or have any sort of mental health issues. There's not a lot out there. Unfortunately, the world we live in is no one's willing to

Marie Camin 1:08:33

So true

Stephanie Fornasier 1:08:34

say anything if they are, but there's some hints. Emily Hampshire, who played Stevie, I found this really interesting. She originally requested to submit a taped audition on account of her nerves, and recurring hive breakouts. And then she ultimately agreed to audition in person, but she says that she has no recollection of the experience. And according to Dan Levy, who was there, she gave a great audition then proceeded to lift her shirt over her head to hide and slowly rocked back and forth.

Marie Camin 1:09:02

Wow! Oh, that's incredible.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:09:04

And she's acted throughout her life. So yeah, I just thought what makes me wonder if maybe, yeah, she's got a bit of neurodivergence... or anxiety

Marie Camin 1:09:12

Oh, I think like it. Yeah. So anxiety is something that I come up against a lot in my work as in so much can be explained by anxiety, but it can't actually. Yeah. Because like you said, she has been doing this for most of her life. You, In theory, the more you do something, the less anxious you are about it. If it's anxiety. So I think the fact that some people just get overwhelmed still, no matter how much they repeat it, is more a sign they're getting overloaded. Like your nervous system is not coping. Yeah.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:09:43

Particularly if it leads to that physical hive breakout as well. Yeah. So yeah, but that's all I could find. But she does Stevie so well, I would not be surprised.

Marie Camin 1:09:53

Yeah. One thing I will say actually is one thing that's a bit frustrating in my position as a psychologist is we can't obviously We can't publicly diagnose people, right? Like it's unethical. And even as an autistic person, I wouldn't want to out someone else. Because it could be unsafe for them, or they may not know that about themselves. But there are genuinely some famous people, actors and stuff who are so clearly autistic or ADHD. And I'm like, gosh, I wish you knew and could tell people because you are great. And it would be so great for the community to have you to look to

Stephanie Fornasier 1:10:28

Yeah, that representation. Yeah. Particularly in such big popularity positions.

Marie Camin 1:10:32

Yeah. So when what's what's his name? That actor from Prison Break?

Stephanie Fornasier 1:10:36

I dunno sorry!

Marie Camin 1:10:37

Oh gosh, he's he had the shaved head and the piercing blue eyes anyway, he was diagnosed a few years ago.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:10:43

Oh, was he.

Marie Camin 1:10:44

And he was so open about it. He was like, I'm autistic. And I use identity first language. And I'm here to learn from the community. And I'm sorry if I say anything offensive,

Stephanie Fornasier 1:10:53

So good

Marie Camin 1:10:53

and I was like, amazing! cos so.. Wentworth Miller.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:10:56

Oh, yeah.

Marie Camin 1:10:57

Thanks, brain.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:10:59

I think that's what I love about when like Josh Thomas came out. Yeah, that he's because of starting a show about an autistic character. He looked into it himself. And was like, yeah I'm autistic as well.

Marie Camin 1:11:09

Oh, and see, he's one that it's quite, it was quite obvious to me.

Yeah. Yeah.

And they've been a few, Em Rusciano was really obvious to me. People were like, Marie, you just think everyone's neurodivergent. I'm like, I'm telling you. And then a few years ago, she came out and I was like, yes, nailed it!

Stephanie Fornasier 1:11:24

Yeah, that's so good. On that note too. Eugene Levy. I couldn't find anything about him specifically, in terms of mental mental health or neurodivergence, but he's been a spokesperson for autism. He's said that he has a cousin with autism. And then I think it was 2007 He was lobbying in Canada, for the Canada Health Act to include effective science based treatment for autism for all Canadians. But it seems like it's a bit of an Autism Speaks thing going on here.

Marie Camin 1:11:54

oh okay..

Stephanie Fornasier 1:11:54

Like he was advocating for treatment for autism.

Marie Camin 1:11:58

Oh nooo

Stephanie Fornasier 1:11:59

And in the articles I read there mentioned ABA. So I'm sad to say, Well, I mean, that was 2007. Maybe his views have changed.

Marie Camin 1:12:06

oh that's a long time ago

Stephanie Fornasier 1:12:07

But I didn't get anything more recent. Apart from the fact there's some autistic people who have you know, don't love Schitts Creek for that reason, and have sort of turned away from being a Eugene Levy fan. But he said like, this is something he said in an article. Over the years, my family has been hit by the ravages of cancer, heart disease, muscular dystrophy, diabetes, and Alzheimer's disease. Every one of these afflictions is a worthy cause for wholehearted support. And every one of those afflictions has treatment that is covered by Medicare. The treatment for autism is not covered by Medicare. So it's a bit disappointing that he's equating autism with cancer. et cetera.

Marie Camin 1:12:42

Yes. That is disappointing. How dare you break my heart in this way Steph

Stephanie Fornasier 1:12:45

I know. I'm so sorry.

Marie Camin 1:12:47

no no It's, it's better that I know

Stephanie Fornasier 1:12:48

Listeners I did warn Marie before.

Marie Camin 1:12:51

She's like, I have something to tell you. And I was like, Oh, no. But that 2007, like if you think about the, so when I started practising and getting my head around, neurodiversity was about five or six years ago, and hardly anyone, hardly anyone, and even on Instagram and Twitter, like there was nothing really, it was a very, very small, small, small community. But now it's just huge. And it's growing so quickly.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:13:16

yeah its massive

Marie Camin 1:13:16

And it's so exciting. So if I think about it in that timeline, it's it's 2007 is a very long time ago.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:13:24

Yeah. And that's when I was at uni. We got maybe one lecture about developmental disability. Yeah, autism was referenced a couple of times. If I went back to uni, now, I'm sure there would be a lot more about it.

Marie Camin 1:13:36

mmm...

Stephanie Fornasier 1:13:36

I don't know, maybe not?

Marie Camin 1:13:38

Well... when I was going through my master's programme was probably 10... You've got 10 years on me. And it was the same deal then. And then I taught third year subjects of undergrads psych for a few years and developmental psych only covered autism in one lecture, like not even the whole lecture was like one bit of a lecture.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:13:58

So it hasn't really changed

Marie Camin 1:13:59

it hasn't really changed. Some uni is now trying to like really get ahead like Latrobe is doing some good things, which is why I chose to do my PhD there. But yeah, it's still not great

Stephanie Fornasier 1:14:10

When i was studying too was very much medical model. Yeah, social model wasn't coming into a lot of the things we went into not just our divergence, but mental illness. So the treatment focus was very prominent then. So hopefully, he's learned. Yeah, given that he's got very coded autistic characters in the show that he created with his son. Fingers crossed

Marie Camin 1:14:33

Yes. Speaking of Dan

Stephanie Fornasier 1:14:34

yes.

Marie Camin 1:14:36

What have you got here?

Stephanie Fornasier 1:14:37

So he did say that he experienced lots of severe anxiety as a child and avoided social situations and use theatre as an escape. I mean, tick, tick, tick.

Marie Camin 1:14:48

Yeah

Stephanie Fornasier 1:14:49

he did say that he took a lot from his own life in David, but they are also very different in other ways, but even in the last season, he had to wear a neck brace due to the tension that he had from the stress and anxiety.

Marie Camin 1:15:00

Wow

Stephanie Fornasier 1:15:00

of the of the filming, so he hasn't obviously said anything publicly that I've read, but there's some yeah,

Marie Camin 1:15:08

there's some some little things there that are quite common. You know, I'm not saying that Dan Levy is autistic, but in a lot of referrals that I get for adults who end up being autistic, a lot of the referrals, say, pretty much what's written here. severe anxiety and stress. Yeah, avoiding social situations. Yeah.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:15:28

So that's interesting. And clearly there's autism in the family too. So

Marie Camin 1:15:31

Well, that's the other thing, right? If Eugene Levy has a cousin, we know that neurotypes, yeah. run in families. Yeah.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:15:39

And it's interesting that he became a spokesperson, Eugene, like, usually people have a little bit more affinity with autism to be a spokesperson rather than maybe just a cousin. So I wonder if there's stuff there that we don't know about?

Marie Camin 1:15:52

Yeah that's a good point.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:15:54

And Catherine O'Hara, I didn't find anything about... but I know that like I've watched a lot of her films over the years, particularly Christopher Guest films. Best in Show, A Mighty Wind, Waiting for Guffman if you haven't seen any of these go watch them. They're hilarious.

Marie Camin 1:16:10

I haven't but i've heard of them.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:16:11

She's her character is very similar in a lot of those films. Also Beetlejuice she's

Marie Camin 1:16:17

Oh, yeah

Stephanie Fornasier 1:16:18

There's some traits of Moira Rose in that too. So I think she's just very good at playing very overdramatic character. But I did find out she has, I don't know if I'm saying this right. Situs inversus, which is when your internal organs are sort of flipped, so your heart and lungs are mirrored?

Marie Camin 1:16:34

Wow.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:16:35

And not where they're supposed to be. So that's interesting.

Marie Camin 1:16:37

Right. That is Interesting. I've never heard of that.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:16:39

Yeah. I think it's fairly rare. And Annie Murphy, she did say that she had a period of depression and attributes medication to helping save her life.

Marie Camin 1:16:48

Oh

Stephanie Fornasier 1:16:49

It was post Schitts Creek, I think that she went through quite a depressive spell. And I know a lot of actors, when work sort of stops for a while they can go into that depression.

Marie Camin 1:16:59

Right I've and I have heard people who work in the acting industry talk about the fact that they reckon at least 80% of actors have ADHD. And I just I think about it from that lens. You go through everyday, exciting novel thing. Yeah. And then it's gone

Stephanie Fornasier 1:17:15

and constant stimulation.

Marie Camin 1:17:17

Yeah, that would be that would be really challenging.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:17:20

It'd be a big like dopamine reduction.

Marie Camin 1:17:23

Yeah. Crash.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:17:23

Crash. Yeah. Yep. So that makes sense. Is there anything of any of the characters or actors that you know about that? I haven't touched on?

Marie Camin 1:17:31

No, I don't I just like to sometimes if a character is particularly autistic coded, I'll like to go and like look at the actor's socials and see if there's any videos or anything thatI can observe.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:17:44

Yeah I find myself doing that too, like, oh, you play that quite well.

Marie Camin 1:17:48

Yeah.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:17:48

Got some lived experience there?

Marie Camin 1:17:49

Or are you just a really immaculate actor. I must say any Murphy is a stellar actor.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:17:55

yeah i love her

Marie Camin 1:17:55

Oh my gosh, I'd only ever seen her in Schitt's Creek. But then I saw her in Russian doll. Oh my gosh.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:18:00

Yeah she was amazing. And so different too

Marie Camin 1:18:03

Yeah, that's what I mean

Stephanie Fornasier 1:18:04

I didn't really recognise her, until

Marie Camin 1:18:05

Exactly. And that's a good actor. Yeah. Usually actors stick to the same thing that they do. But those that can have so much diversity in their roles and convince you every time like Ryan Gosling is another one. Convincing. So convincing.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:18:20

And apparently, she auditioned for the role of Stevie.

Marie Camin 1:18:23

Oh

Stephanie Fornasier 1:18:24

and then they were like, Nah, maybe you're more of a Alexis and I, I can't imagine her doing Stevie but I'm sure she would have been good.

Marie Camin 1:18:30

she would have nailed it. Yeah. But Alexis is such a joy. Like, I'm so glad that they got her to do that.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:18:37

We'll just briefly touch on stereotypes. I think what I love about Schitt's Creek is it seems like your typical silly comedy, and then it turns into something else. And it sort of subverts a lot of the usual stereotypes that you see in this kind of comedies. So I sort of only picked up on more subversive stuff, which I think was intentional, like David coming out, in a very brief way as pansexual like using the wine bottle is the metaphor. There was absolutely no homophobia or queer phobia, or any any of that from the town, even though it's a very country town, you'd expect... Hicksville

Marie Camin 1:19:14

a country town to be really conservative, wouldn't you? But yeah, that was it was lovely. And even how Johnny talks about it once at a party. I think someone mentioned it, and I think he says something like David, David, just likes who he likes so yeah, like that. Yeah. It's like that's so casual.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:19:32

Yeah it's like not a thing a non issue. Yeah. And even when Patrick shares with his parents that he's gay,

Marie Camin 1:19:38

that was gorgeous.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:19:39

Yeah. And they're, they're all ready to go into bat for him. And if there's any homophobia, they're all ready to punch it away. And then the family is just like, we just are upset that you didn't want to tell us this. Yeah. Which is a totally understandable reaction, I think.

Marie Camin 1:19:53

Yes. Yeah. I thought that was so beautiful as well.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:19:57

So yeah, it's nice to see that representation. And then not being a huge plot point as well, just being a brief thing. I also love that Johnny even though he's very masc presenting, he's quite emotional.

Marie Camin 1:20:09

Oh, yeah.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:20:09

And like it at David's wedding, he can't help but cry like you can't get through the day without crying. And I think that's a nice, like very much not the usual trope of the dad at a wedding really got to be really stoic,

Marie Camin 1:20:22

Also how proactive he is in supporting Moira. I think that subverts traditional masculine norms. He's on it. He can't tell when she's not having a good day. And he's there and he's ready.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:20:34

Yeah. And he supports her throughout everything. I think just generally, it's a nice version of the backwoods town trope, because everyone in there, it's actually really delightful and supportive of this rich family. Everyone's really welcoming of the roses, even though they really shouldn't be because, yeah, they're not being treated particularly well by them at first.

Marie Camin 1:20:56

Yeah, I always found that a bit strange. Part of me wondered, Is it is it that we're just seeing these like, 10 people in the town and everyone else hates them? But then Moira gets elected into Council? Yeah, so maybe not. Yeah. So

Stephanie Fornasier 1:21:11

Yeah she would have had to get votes from Yeah. Anything else that you thought was either a stereotype or subverts a stereotype?

Marie Camin 1:21:17

I think probably just Roland. Yes he's quite a, really easy stereotype. And I'm not sure what he adds. People might disagree with me, but I I truly feel like you could take him out of the show. And it wouldn't really change much.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:21:32

No he could Yeah, he could have been less of a trope? Yes. It would still be fine show. Yeah. But yeah, if there's anyone listening who his favourite character is Roland, let us know.

Marie Camin 1:21:43

yeah, we could be missing something you know, sometimes they're they're really obvious, like characters that have really obvious tropes or stereotypes, and it serves a purpose. And I miss it. Yeah. So that could be the case.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:21:54

Well, I've missed it too.

Marie Camin 1:21:55

yeah

Stephanie Fornasier 1:22:03

Okay, so let's just finish off with helpful messages or the things that we think is helpful about schitts Creek and any potentially harmful things. What about yourself? What, what is helpful for you about Schitts Creek

Marie Camin 1:22:16

Well, I mentioned it before, but it's important I'll touch on it again, is I feel like the representation of neurodiversity in this show, whether whether it's spoken or not, there's such a range of behaviours and traits and communication styles. And it's not presented as a problem ever. Yeah, everyone kind of accommodates everyone else. So I love that. And I love the relationship between David and Patrick, and then how you can see Patrick, he's really attuned to David and meets his needs. And they have a quite an even partnership. And they both bring very different things to the partnership. Yeah,

Stephanie Fornasier 1:22:55

I think they're also a great example of a relationship where they're better together, as apart They're lovely people, but they bring something else when they're together.

Marie Camin 1:23:03

Really complementary. Yeah,

Stephanie Fornasier 1:23:05

they try and bring out the best in each other as well. which I think I really love

Marie Camin 1:23:09

yeah

Stephanie Fornasier 1:23:10

do you think? Cuz I haven't read anything where anyone said we wanted these characters to be neurodivergent. So do you think it was intentional? Or do you think it's accidental?

Marie Camin 1:23:20

I think a lot of writers write autistic characters or ADHD characters, and they don't actually know that that's what they're writing. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes it's because there's tropes that already exist, like the eccentric creative, right. Almost always, autistic, or ADHD, or both. the Manic pixie dream girl?

Stephanie Fornasier 1:23:40

Yes.

Marie Camin 1:23:41

Classic autistic girl. Classic. So yeah, I think writers do write that. And the other thing that I think is because let's say in creative industries, like film and TV, there would be a higher proportion of neurodivergent people. They're watching traits that they see every day that they probably have no idea

Stephanie Fornasier 1:23:58

or they see in themselves

Marie Camin 1:23:59

or they see in themselves. Yeah,

Stephanie Fornasier 1:24:00

yeah. And I was talking to Jeremy Andrew Davis about Wednesday.

Marie Camin 1:24:04

Oh, I loved that episode.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:24:05

how he identified that he's probably autistic because he was writing this character. And he was like, oh, it's me. And they seem autistic.

Marie Camin 1:24:11

Yeah.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:24:13

Do you think though would have been better If they had labelled,

Marie Camin 1:24:16

it would have been great to, I think, at least David, because he's probably the more obvious one. And that's usually the character that gets labelled and even but even then, if David were labelled as autistic, he's still such a good representation. That's not super stereotypical. So even though he's more classic than say, Alexis, he's still really different from Sheldon Cooper.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:24:40

Yeah, yeah, hugely.

Marie Camin 1:24:41

So yeah, that would have been great.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:24:42

And to be honest, I think it was also more accurate that they wouldn't have had a diagnosis because they're such a rich, powerful family in that popular sphere that they probably wouldn't have even thought that this is something they should chase up.

Marie Camin 1:24:55

And when you have that much money, you can really accommodate disability. Hmm. Like, I just think about, even if even if I were like a millionaire, let's say just a couple of million, I could have a personal assistant to do all my executive function for me, like that would be life changing. And so there's so much that money can buy you that can support disability, and you wouldn't then see the effects of disability,

Stephanie Fornasier 1:25:21

and you wouldn't necessarily need that diagnosis to get support. Yes, because you've got the support anyway.

Marie Camin 1:25:27

You can self fund it.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:25:28

Yeah. I love I think it's a very wholesome representation of siblings ship. So

Marie Camin 1:25:35

yes,

Stephanie Fornasier 1:25:35

Alexis and David being so they're so in tune with each other as well. And they do rib on each other and get together and rib on mom and dad as well, which is very similar to my sibling five as well. And I just love seeing that. It's not like a slap in your face as well, because they both get annoyed with each other.

Marie Camin 1:25:54

Oh, yeah.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:25:54

But they're always there for each other at the same time.

Marie Camin 1:25:57

Yes I love that relationship. And it does. It reminds me a bit of my my brother and I as well. And when Mutt gets Alexis a bike, and David is and she's just like, Help me Help me. Like, she doesn't know how to say she doesn't want the bike. And as soon as Mutt walks in David's like, oh, Alexis loves the bike, and he's just like ripping into her. And then yeah, so she's like shh, shh, David! their relationships so great. And another one that she's giving him crap about something and he's like, eat glass. And I'm just, classic line, classic.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:26:32

Love that insult, eat glass!

Marie Camin 1:26:34

So they've just they really dig into each other. But which my brother and I don't at all, and never have and People think that's weird. Like we just don't fight. We're 10 years apart, though. So I think that's why

Stephanie Fornasier 1:26:45

my me and my brother were four years apart. And we also never fought. Yeah. So I mean, it's just a relationship thing

Marie Camin 1:26:50

it is. But that kind of classic. Like, I am really chaotic ADHD. My brother is super chill, and like, stoic and so I sometimes... we can't video game together, because he wants to play the main storyline. And I go on all of the sidequests. And I pick up every rock to check. There's not a jewel under there or something. And he's just like, Oh, my God. So yeah, I don't know. I just

Stephanie Fornasier 1:27:17

So if you were playing together on the one team, then you'd be perfect. Because you could do side quests and he can do the main storyline.

Marie Camin 1:27:22

Oh that's true! But I don't know of any games that exist like that.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:27:24

I don't know either, I'm not a gamer

Marie Camin 1:27:25

Yeah, he just gets so frustrated when he watches me game. He's just like wha.. What are you doing? Keep going. I'm just like, going on all these tangents. Like, oh, that looks pretty. I'll go over there. Yeah, poor thing. But lovely representation of siblingship. I agree.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:27:42

Yeah. And I particularly love the last episode when they get married, that Alexis is wearing a white dress and she's walking David down the aisle. And there's already a to-do like, oh, it looks like we're getting married. And then Roland says it looks like they're getting married. And Johnny's just like yeahh. and he smiles. And I love that because particularly my sister and brother. They were living together all of the last two years. And I absolutely know for a fact that my son thought there were a couple. And they were married. And a lot of people when I introduced them to people like Ah, is that his girlfriend? No, they're siblings. because they were just so close. And I don't think there's many representations of a close sibling ship that's just a close sibling ship and

Marie Camin 1:28:26

absolutely

Stephanie Fornasier 1:28:27

love each other and, and do everything together. And I think that's beautiful.

Marie Camin 1:28:30

Yeah. My brother is like, not at all open to this, but I would live with him. And I think that's

Stephanie Fornasier 1:28:35

Did you hear that?

Marie Camin 1:28:37

I think that's why as well people, like neuro neurotypical kind of or neuro norms is, you know, grownups don't live with their siblings, but like, some siblings are that close. And it's so lovely. Yeah, that would be fine.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:28:49

Yeah. Yes. Many times throughout the series that they probably didn't need to all be living in that.

Marie Camin 1:28:54

For sure.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:28:55

conjoined motel room. But they did. Yeah. Yeah. So there's just so much goodness in it. It's so like, it's a comfort watch for so many people for good reason. Yeah,

Marie Camin 1:29:05

it's great. And if you haven't seen it, and you're just listening to this, because you're like, I want to hear what Marie has to say. Like, go watch it. Yeah. So good.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:29:13

And then watch it a few more times

Marie Camin 1:29:14

push through season one. Yeah. It's good, but it gets way better.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:29:18

Yep, definitely. Is there anything harmful in it? Do you think

Marie Camin 1:29:22

I really struggled to think of anything? To be honest. It would have been good to have more diverse bodies.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:29:30

Yes. In the cast Yeah. And maybe a little bit more cultural diversity are there there's a few like, there's Ronnie but yeah, it's pretty white as well.

Marie Camin 1:29:38

It is pretty white. And I did wonder if that would be the demographic of a small town in the US. But yeah, still it would have it would have been it also would have been good to have more queer relationships in in the show. But this is really nitpicking, I think.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:29:55

And I think yeah, it's it's relevant to the Rose family being you know, A celebrity family, of course, they're going to be very focused on being a certain size and weight. So it makes sense that there wouldn't be as much size diversity. But yeah, it would have been nice. Yeah. Do you think the fact that this is this is the only thing I thought the fact that at the end, they kind of go back like Moira goes back into acting? She

Marie Camin

Oh, that bothered me. Yeah. How they all kind of go back to Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it did bother me. Um, I don't know. I can't quite put my finger on it. But something about it felt like yeah, not where it was naturally progressing to.

Stephanie Fornasier

It felt a bit privileged to like,

Marie Camin

I think that's what it is. Yeah

Stephanie Fornasier

we've had to lose everything to come to this town. But now we get to have it all again. Yeah

Marie Camin

Yes goodness. No. I got goosebumps. Yeah, it must be that because yeah, something didn't sit right with me. And I couldn't quite Yeah, it almost felt like an easy ending. Yeah,

Stephanie Fornasier

like a bit of a cop out. Yeah. I think the purpose of it is that they learn and they grow and they become better people. But it would have been nice for them to be happy where they were rather than continue with their success.

Marie Camin

Yeah where they were before. Yeah, that's true. I was also really disappointed about Alexis and Ted.

Stephanie Fornasier

Yeah, same. I wanted them to give it a good go

Marie Camin

I know. Give it a good go at the long distance. I think it you know, with how busy they both are, it probably would have worked.

Stephanie Fornasier

Yeah, true. I wonder if the purpose of that was showing that Alexis could be completely selfless that I loved. I did love that. She wanted Tedto be with her. She wanted him to do what he needed to do.

Marie Camin

Yeah, yeah, I did love that. And in my head, they get back together in a few years. Yeah.

Stephanie Fornasier

That's what happened. Yeah, I couldn't think of anything else as well. I guess. There would be a danger of if they didn't grow and change and they are these neurodivergent coded characters that they could have been one note and maybe not a great representation but because they do we do see their depths then I think it's a pretty helpful

Marie Camin

yeah, like I said, character development is probably one of my favourite things about this show. You just watch them grow and and learn so much.

Stephanie Fornasier

That's what I'm always drawn to with a sitcom or show

Marie Camin

same, same. it's almost like we're psychologists. Show me the growth!

Stephanie Fornasier

What happened in their backstory, I need to know! well, is there anything else you wanted to mention? Or last thoughts about shits Creek?

Marie Camin

No, I think I think actually, we covered so much

Stephanie Fornasier

we did. I'm impressed

Marie Camin

I'm really impressed. Yeah, I mean, I know I'm on this episode, but I feel like I'm gonna love this episode

Stephanie Fornasier

That's great.

Marie Camin

Because I love talking this conversation and I'm gonna love listening to it back again and absorbing more as well,

Stephanie Fornasier

because I know a lot of guests who you know, aren't podcasters themselves will go I don't want to listen to myself. I can't do it.

Marie Camin

I don't like to listen to my voice. That's true. But I'll I'll tolerate it.

Stephanie Fornasier

You do get used to it after a while

Marie Camin

You just I don't know about other people. I process more on more listens. Like there'll be things I missed or didn't land when you said it in real time, and I'll listen back and be like, Oh, wow. Yeah.

Stephanie Fornasier

Well thank you so much for joining me today. Marie. It's been a wonderful chat.

Marie Camin

Such a pleasure. Actually not like neurotypical like being polite, like actually a pleasure.

Stephanie Fornasier

Um, how can people get in touch with you and follow you on social media, etc?

Marie Camin

Yeah. So I'm on Instagram, as at Marie Camin, MARIE, CAMIN, and that's where I'm the most active, to be honest. So that would be the place. I also have some resources actually on my on my website. Oh, yes, please. Yeah, free ones. So that's also just MarieCamin.com.

Stephanie Fornasier

Awesome. Great. And I'll make sure to link them in the Episode Notes too

Marie Camin

There's some sassy stickers there too, which I'm very proud of

Stephanie Fornasier

I love your stickers. should definitely get your hands on some of those listeners.

Music Break 4:09

outro finishes

Stephanie Fornasier

This podcast is not designed to be therapeutic, prescriptive or constitute a formal diagnosis for any listener. For a longer version of this disclaimer, please check the Episode notes on your podcast app.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai