IBD, Crohn’s Disease and Boldly Go

TRANSCRIPT: Episode 64 - Crohn's Disease representation in Boldly Go, and Pete Davidson just trying to spread awareness (with Chris Cosgrove)

October 18

Chris Cosgrove 0:04

because it's exactly what it feels like when you've got extreme abdominal Crohn's pains. It's like yeah, that's what it feels like there's an alien trying to and I've probably made that joke at times and like I feel like there's an alien trying to get us out of my belly

Stephanie Fornasier 0:19

Welcome to Psychocinematic, a podcast where we analyse depictions of mental illness and disability in popular films and TV. I'm your host, Stephanie Fournier. If you love our podcast and want to give us some support, make sure you're following Psychocinematic podcast on Instagram, tick tock and Twitter. And check out our website Psychocinematic podcast.com. For access to special bonus content episodes, Early Access stickers and contribute to our regular fundraisers, join our Patreon. Starting from $3.50 a month you can be the coolest Psychocinematic listener there is. I'd like to start today's episode by acknowledging the traditional owners of the land on which I'm recording on today, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation and pay respects to elder's past, present and rising. And also just acknowledge that I'm currently sitting on stolen land. And I'd like to introduce my wonderful co host today. Christopher Cosgrove. Welcome to Psychocinematic. Chris.

Chris Cosgrove 1:19

Hello. Nice to be here.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:20

Do you prefer Chris or Christopher? I should just check that.

Chris Cosgrove 1:23

I always say Christopher when I'm in trouble the rest of the time.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:27

Yeah, that's a bit like Steph and Stephanie for me. Yeah, so Chris completed your Bachelor of Fine Arts in film at QT. And then began your screen career in meanjin or Brisbane, which is the land that you're on today, I assume? Yes, yes, lovely. Editing TV commercials and corporates. In 2018 he moved to Sydney to study directing at the Australian film, television and radio, school or afters. It was there where he wrote and directed boldly go and auto biographical short film about the challenges of dating with a colostomy bag. The film's comedic and heartwarming tone proved to be a hit with audiences across the globe, garnering official selections of over 20 international film festivals, including BFI flare, the London Queer Film Festival, reliabilities New York Leeds International Film Festival, and inside out the Toronto Queer Film Festival, the film also received a market screening at the 72nd Festival DICOM is that

Chris Cosgrove 2:21

right? Yeah, it's French festival to carry on let's go festival DICOM

Stephanie Fornasier 2:25

short film corner and is streaming on ABC iView. Chris currently works part time as a digital content producer for a disability services provider whilst continuing to develop his own creative screen projects. So it's such an honour to have you on the podcast today, Chris? Especially because we're always we're talking about lots of depictions of mental illness and disability. And it's a real treat to be able to talk to someone who has created an actual depiction of a mental illness or disability. So thank you so much for joining us.

Chris Cosgrove 2:56

No worries. Pleasure to be here.

Stephanie Fornasier 2:58

Just to start with, tell me a little bit about your experience in the film world. And what made you decide to study film,

Chris Cosgrove 3:05

I think I grew up in a family where we were all big sort of film fanatics. So I always appreciated like watching films, I was always really artistic. And so in like school didn't have a film programme at my school. So I did a lot of like visual art and drama, and I loved English and writing. And so it wasn't until I got to the end of grade 12 When I was trying to decide what to do for university that someone even suggested, you should consider doing film. And at that point, I kind of wasn't prepared to make that jump. And so I sort of I was academically, I performed quite well. And so I had these sort of expectations of like, well, that's not a real job, you know, I can't do an art job. I diligently enrolled myself in a Bachelor of Business in Oh, that'll have a bit of creativity in it. And after two years at that I think my soul was slightly pulverised. And that was then I had a tutor, a fantastic tutor. I remember that last semester, who is day job was a copywriter for commercials. And he had basically seen some of the stuff I'd written he was like, Chris, what are you doing here? You should film school. And it was I think the first moment I kind of had a real sort of career counselling from someone in the industry. So I took that definitely on board. And so that's when I applied in the Bachelor of Fine Arts not really thinking I'd get in because they have any film so I remember coming to the interview. At that point, they used to have an interview process and it just like brought like this crazy person with the trolley full of like, oh my artwork that I just like all of my things I have made you know sculptures and paintings and then like excerpts of drawings. I was like, Look, I promise I'm really creative. I just haven't been around before I managed to get in which was great. Fantastic there. I just kind of felt more and more in love with it.

Stephanie Fornasier 4:48

Yeah. Oh, brilliant. I'm glad that you made that transition. Because clearly you've got real like natural talent in that area. I guess today I asked you to come on the podcast because I thought you'd be perfect to talk about a chronic illness that I've wanted to capture on the podcast for a while, which is inflammatory bowel disease or Crohn's. So, really appreciate you willing to share a bit about that and how you've captured that through boldly go. I guess to start with, I might just run through what IBD is, and please feel free to correct me if I get anything wrong. I'm mostly taking this from the internet. But inflammatory bowel disease is a term for two conditions, which is Crohn's disease and ulcerative colitis, that are characterised by chronic inflammation of the gastrointestinal tract. Prolonged inflammation results in damage to the GI tract or the gastrointestinal tract. And I thought it'd be good to clarify the difference between IBD or inflammatory bowel disease in IBS, irritable bowel syndrome, which is also quite common. And there is a very big difference in the two, although they can sort of share similar symptoms. Irritable Bowel Syndrome is more classified as a functional gastrointestinal disorder, which means there's some type of disturbance in bowel function, which is suggested to be caused by disturbance between the brain and gut, which is often why psychological counselling is given as a treatment, there's usually no actual inflammation or damage and rarely requires hospitalisation or surgery. And there's no sort of way to actually diagnose it, because you can't actually see it on imaging, whereas IBD is much more severe and its impact you can see it in a in a screener, and can cause some real significant damage to the colon. So if if anyone's hearing these two sort of descriptions of symptoms, that's something to keep in mind if you're suspected that you've got one of these things. Did I get that right, from your understanding? Chris?

Chris Cosgrove 6:38

Yeah, I think so. One thing I think that's kind of important to mention is that it's very much like a western medicine classification system. Treatment. Yeah. So I think sometimes people, you know, I've heard friends who have IBS, and it can be really debilitating. And the condition can be just as bad sometimes as friends that have Crohn's. And yet, there's just sort of, you know, sometimes thought that's like, Oh, that's not that's not as bad because it's IBS. You know, that's not IBD.

Stephanie Fornasier 7:04

Yeah, that's a good point to make. Yeah,

Chris Cosgrove 7:06

it's more sort of just like a clinical definition around what's causing the illness, I suppose. Not necessarily how severe your symptoms or how valid your pain might be.

Stephanie Fornasier 7:16

Thank you for saying that, too. Because I feel like particularly with anything with the word functional in front of it, there's a lot of MIS information or some judgement from people that are it's not as legitimate as other chronic illnesses or conditions. But it is absolutely legitimate. Yeah, yeah, there's obviously different indications for why those disorders or syndromes occur. And that's why that one is classified as a disease and one is classified as a syndrome. So yeah, that's thank you for sharing that. Do you mind sharing a little bit about your own experience with Crohn's disease? So when did you first notice sort of symptoms of Crohn's?

Chris Cosgrove 7:52

So I think it was around 2007, I would have been about 21, I'd probably, like, in hindsight, had symptoms before then, and not necessarily kind of paid too much attention to them. But certainly, it came to a head around that point in my life, what had started to happen was, I could probably always had a bit of what some people called, you know, an upset tummy, I'd had Pyloric stenosis as a baby, which is sort of when you're born with like, the bottom of your stomach is kind of constricted, and you need a little surgery to open it up. And so I always had like, a lot of reflux, and you often easily get sick as a kid. But at that point, when I was around 21, what kind of drew my attention to it was I was starting to go to the toilet, and I was like, losing a lot of blood when I was going to toilet. So I was in when I was doing a food basically. And at first, I think I was just like, Oh, that's weird. I don't have to think about that right now. And probably being you know, a young male, you know, might have formed a stereotype there of like, that'll probably just go away by itself. But it didn't, and it proceeded to kind of get worse. And then I remember one night I went through and it was really bad. And it was just like this is like a scene from The Shining or something. So that was why I think I was really scared and had to tell mom and dad and then we went to the hospital that night to emergency and that then sort of triggered then a chain of diagnostics, which ended up doing my first colonoscopy would have been that week. And from that colonoscopy, they could see straight away that I had quite severe ulceration in my large intestine,

Stephanie Fornasier 9:31

that would have been so terrifying to go through that process.

Chris Cosgrove 9:34

Yeah, it was it was really scary particular because I hadn't heard about Crohn's before, I guess, you know, you don't know much about a colonoscopy when you're that age. It's not something people normally do at that age. Thankfully, I had an amazing just by luck and amazing gastroenterologist. That was my first connection. And so she was the one who did the colonoscopy. She was quite young, which was rare. I think it was the fact that it was a A female doctor, a young female doctor, I really connected with her. And she was really human, and I think was good at working with young patients could acknowledge that number one was just a scared person in front of us medical stuff and was really good at dealing with that. I remember her saying, When I woke up from the colonoscopy, I was like, Okay, well, this is what we're seeing, you know, it could just be a one off, but we need to do some blood tests, which will confirm it. But she said, Look at better Freddo. From that it's probably Crohn's disease. I remember just thinking like, that's an unusual thing for a doctor to say, she had a great sense of humour. And so that straightaway gave me a little bit of consolation and trust, I guess. Yeah, yeah. It sounds

Stephanie Fornasier 10:43

like she was pretty amazing. And I think, sadly, we don't always have medical professions that really get it and how to talk with particular young, scared people. So it's really valuable when there is one that really just helps you. In that experience.

Chris Cosgrove 10:55

Shout out Dr. Lisa Barrett.

Stephanie Fornasier 11:00

So what sort of transpired after that point, it sounds like that was obviously I don't want to out your age, but a while ago,

Chris Cosgrove 11:07

yeah. So that then kind of began, I guess, the beginning of my sort of Crohn's journey, it would have been, I'm trying to remember now, I think about a year within that first year probably would have been, basically, when you're diagnosed with Crohn's, when the first things they tend to do is they just hit you really hard with steroids to try and get the inflammation down. So once you've done the blood test to confirm that it was Crohn's, because I could see, my white cell markers were really high, which means you've got like active inflammation in your body, the first thing we just want to do is just try and get the inflammation under control. And so it's really common to even today still do a lot of steroid treatment, even though a lot of those drugs kind of very old. And they're kind of you know, like trying to hit a needle with a sledge hammer, they do a lot of other impacts to your body at the same time. So I remember, and they, you know, she did warn me, but you know, you gain a lot of weight, it makes your face puffed up, and you go really red in the face, you get really hyperactive sort of sleepers ALL OVER THE SHOP, quite manic on those large doses. That itself was a whole sort of crazy experience of just doing the prednisone. I remember that first year. Yeah, once I get the inflammation under control, usually the next thing that the doctor is gonna try and do is then put you into remission or keep you in remission. So remission is this term they use for Crohn's, which is basically the disease itself can come and go throughout your lifetime. And there'll be periods when it's really active, and you have what they call it flare ups. And then you'll have periods where it's inactive, and you can kind of live a normal life. So the goal is always trying to keep it inactive. And so the immunosuppressant drugs is to try and maintain that or extend the period of remission between flare ups, those drugs also have their own sort of side effects. You know, the ones I was on there sort of mildly cytotoxic, they can have, you know, for some people like my younger brother was diagnosed with Crohn's year after me, he wasn't able to tolerate that first sort of dose until they found an alternative because for a lot of people, it can have issues with your liver function. So there's complications, even just with the treatment, where they're trying to sort of find the right location. So you can go on a journey. Well, you know, we test different medications on you to find which one works. I unfortunately, I've been pretty lucky with the meds that I've had where they generally I haven't had major side effects or major contraindications with medications, that that can also add extra complications to people's Crohn's once so I once had had the immunosuppressant. But that would have been within that first two years, the condition had still sort of not really got much better, and I was quite sick. And basically what it started to happen without me realising was I was having really frequent bowel obstructions. I just thought at the time was like, I've got really bad gastro, I'm vomiting every weekend. And that went on for like about six weeks. And then I remember being I was just in Waukesha house, I was sort of on my own at the time because the other housemates were at and just having probably what people describe when they have like appendicitis or like a burst appendix, it was just like an extreme abdominal pain like excruciating Yeah, fell out of the bed, couldn't move, got the phone, called an ambulance, and then got admitted into hospital and whether it happened at that point, or it then proceeded to happen over the next night. But essentially, what proceeded to happen was my intestine had burst. So I had a perforated intestine. So I had to have an emergency I what's called an ileostomy, which is where they remove the ileum which is just a part of your intestine basically, it's a bit between the small intestine, the large intestine, so that had to be cut out, but because it had already perforated I'd had peritonitis which is like where you get sepsis where basically because you know, stuff that's going through your intestine trach shouldn't be mixing in With your blood and crazy infection. And so I remember going into the procedure thinking like at that point it said, Oh, hopefully it's this keyhole, you'll be waiting a few hours. And then I woke up the next day in ICU and had a colostomy bag. And no one had mentioned anything about colostomy bags, like a zero discussion until that moment. And that was definitely extremely disorienting. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And that was the first time and had an ostomy. And then they were able to reverse it sort of three months later, which is common when you've had some bow procedures. People don't necessarily know that about ostomies, they can sometimes be removed, so they can connect the bow back up together again, once it's had time to heal. That was sort of the story of my first ostomy bag, I guess. And then I've since had to have one further on for longer periods. I've had multiple bowel resections over the course of the last 15 is.

Stephanie Fornasier 15:57

So it's been a very life. Well, it is a lifelong condition, but also continuous ups and downs and pretty significant surgeries in that time. Yeah,

Chris Cosgrove 16:08

yeah, definitely. And I guess to point out to you, like if you are listening, and maybe you've just been diagnosed with Crohn's, I'm definitely on the more like extreme end of the scale in terms of surgical intervention. So when I mentioned my younger brother, he was diagnosed with Crohn's, you're asking me, he's had no surgery. So he's still, you know, I can experience quite a lot of pain and discomfort, and there's times when he's unable to work. But it doesn't necessarily mean, I think the stat is 80% of people with Crohn's need to have at least one surgery in their lifetime. But in my situation, I've had quite extensive surgeries. But that's probably not a stereotypical case study. So don't necessarily freak out if you're listening to this. But I

Stephanie Fornasier 16:51

guess from what I'm reading, as well, there's there's quite a spectrum of how Crohn's can affect an individual and quite a range of different symptoms that people can experience. So just because you're diagnosed with Crohn's doesn't mean it's going to be this medication. And this is what's going to happen. And this is how you're going to experience I guess, just like any illness in a way.

Chris Cosgrove 17:08

Yeah, that's right. And Crohn's is also a bit unique compared to ulcerative colitis, or Crohn's can affect anywhere in the digestive tract. So whilst it's most commonly the intestines in the bowel can actually be anywhere from your mouth to your bottom, you can have issues with Crohn's disease. And so some people have Crohn's symptoms completely separate to start to do with their bowel.

Stephanie Fornasier 17:30

Can I ask what it was like? Especially that first three months period, when you didn't expect it having an ostomy? Bag for the Yeah, for that duration of time?

Chris Cosgrove 17:40

Yeah, it was definitely a wild ride, it was a couple of things. One, just physically, I guess I, because it was an emergency operation, it meant I'd had like a very large incision, running the whole way down my abdomen, I don't know how many staples. And so those first three months, that was all still healing as well. So yeah, just mobility and walking around and things. But I was young. And so I was probably still trying to do a lot of things naively that I probably shouldn't have been doing. So I remember, you know, would have been the week after I got out of hospital, I was in hospital for about two or three weeks, and I got back into my share house and you share house and it was about day three, you know, malinvestments, like, Hey, we're just going around the corner to like a house party, and you want a car and I was like, Sure. If anyone knows Brisbane, the engine, it's very hilly, and don't just round the corner actually involves, you know, three or four very steep, incline declines. And so I remember getting to this party, and could barely breathe just from like, the exertion of it, and then going to the party and being about an hour in and then realising What's that smell. And I thought I'd stepped in something and then went to the toilet and realised that that bag had started leaking. And it was, I guess, the first time I'd encountered that, because I was still very new to the whole journey and things like you know, sweat can affect adhesives. There's a lot of tricks, tricks that you learn along the way to manage things. And certainly, I guess those first three months would have been a big journey of just discovery and learning how to manage day to day life. A lot of people normally if you were having an ostomy, in most circumstances, there would be some sort of preparation time where you might get some counselling or therapy training before the procedure where you probably learn some of that stuff. Yeah, in my case, that kind of didn't really happen. So we're sort of learning on the fly as we went along.

Stephanie Fornasier 19:42

Well, you offered that after the procedure, as you were it

Chris Cosgrove 19:45

was there were so there were stoma nurses at the hospital, who I remember on day one and me waking up, were very animated coming into the room. Very enthusiastic to teach me all these things, but at that point, I was just like so full of Fenton No, but the room was spinning most of the time. And I remember it was actually too much, I just want them to leave the room, I couldn't actually look at the bag for about three or four days that the nurses would come and do the change. And I actually was at that point, I just can't even process this yet. So it would have been about day three, when I was prepared to actually look down and see what had happened. And then it probably would have been about the first week or so after that, when I was prepared to be involved, even with the changing, you know, seeing what's called the stoma for the first time to stone is like the little part of intestine that comes out of your abdomen when they make an ostomy. And, you know, even that, if you've never seen anything like that before, it's quite terrifying. It's like it literally looks like I've got some of my guts hanging out of me. This can't be okay, how is how we also call it that. So you're learning, it's learning to normalise that. And that you are saying this is okay. This is may not seem normal, but is in fact normal. A lot of people have these. It's a daily, you know, procedure that hospitals, but it's certainly for person going through it, it seems anything about that, yeah,

Stephanie Fornasier 21:15

100% that would have just been such a difficult thing to process. And it makes sense that it took you a few days just to like come to terms with what you've got. And then you had another ostomy bag for quite a long period of time. How was that experience for you.

Chris Cosgrove 21:30

So after that first one was reversed I then I think it was about three or four years before a needed to have another bowel resection. The resection was because a combination of things the Crohn's was flaring up. And so there was inflammation in the bowel from the Crohn's. But there was also scarring from the previous surgery, which is also quite common, when you have bad procedures or anything with the abdomen, you can get what's called adhesions, where parts of the bowel kind of stick to other parts or stick to the abdominal wall. And so because of those adhesions, and that scarring, what was starting to happen was again, I would be eating things, and then I would be really nauseous and then vomiting or getting intense abdominal pain. And it was quite inconsistent, which was also really frustrating, it would depend, I had to kind of go through a whole process of learning what it was I could eat and what I couldn't eat. And it basically it came down to consistency is that something that was fine enough to be able to go through considering how narrow the bowel had become at that point. And when it got to the point when I was very limited in things I could eat that was when the surgeon was like, Okay, you're too young to just be on slop, essentially, we need another resection. And when they did that resection at the time, it was a combination of things they they put the bag back on. But that was also the reason why that time it was there for three years was I had also simultaneously started developing Crohn's in a different part of my body. This bits kind of icky, you can tune out if you gross

Stephanie Fornasier 23:06

content warning for anyone who doesn't like things.

Chris Cosgrove 23:09

Yeah, but it's something really talked about with Crohn's. And I think it is pretty common with Crohn's, they're called fistulas, which is where you can the body gets confused. And it starts creating little tunnels between something together between parts of your bowel, but most commonly, you can get them around your bottom. And so you can get essentially like pockets of infection, which become incredibly painful, like I couldn't walk for a couple of months, because when it was particularly bad. And the way they have to treat that is they put sort of like, it's kind of like explaining like a twist tie, like a cable tie, like they put like little plastic cables around your bottom to keep these little tunnels open so that you don't get infected. But in my case, it kind of they've done that once. And now the second one, I think they got up to three and it wasn't settling down. So that was the actually the primary reason why they decided to put the bag on permanently for three years. Because it completely they call it like called like a deviating ileostomy, something like that where essentially it's to be able to shut down the whole lower part of your digestive tract so it can just heal and recover and you're not having to go to the toilet every day. And so that was why then that bag stayed as long as it did to let the lower end sort of properly here, which it did, thankfully. And that's kind of come and gone over the years, but the bag was sort of the only way to really let things properly cover. Some people when that gets particularly complex, which was on the cards to me they weren't really sure at the time until they did the procedure. Sometimes you can have what it's affectionately called online as a Barbie but where they'll completely close off the end of your colon permanently and so if you imagine what a Barbie but looks like they kind of do something like that to you. Or 10 bucks a Barbie or a 10 But yeah, and Then you'll permanently have the ostomy bag from that point, they can't reverse that if they have to make that procedure. Thankfully, that didn't have to happen to me at the time. But yeah, whether or not in the future that might be something to look at, we'll see ya

Stephanie Fornasier 25:20

it sounds like, and I think you've written this in the nurse, like Crohn's is almost like a full time job in a way of having to manage it, and go through quite significant surgeries. Also, being conscious of things that you eat, etcetera, is how is that? How has it impacted your life? I guess, is my question.

Chris Cosgrove 25:38

Yeah, mentally, I've learned to sort of treat it like a part time job. And when I say that, it's more to do with, I guess, psychologically, allowing myself to sort of prioritise the condition and give it the time that is required to keep myself healthy. If I try and do like the dirty rock, loose lemon, you know, I can do it all. Usually, and I'll have periods in my life when I get particularly excited. And I think you know what, I can do it. Oh, usually, that means I'm heading for, you know, spectacular crash medically. So I've learnt that I need to kind of think about it, like my part time job. And then I have my real part time job and whatever else in my life, but I need to allocate the time to just the maintenance, which a lot of the times means actually just rest. For me, if I can rest, it keeps the symptoms under control. And so allocating that time in my week, and giving myself I guess, permission to do that, which is another thing sort of psychologically,

Stephanie Fornasier 26:39

yeah, not everyone feels they can do that. So that's really important. Yeah,

Chris Cosgrove 26:43

that's right. Yeah. And I struggle with it. I gotta say, like, it's not something, it's something, I just use the phrase part time job, because I find for me, that helps me kind of click and go, Yeah, okay, you're not going out tonight, or you're not doing that meeting, you know, you've got your other job. Remember, you've got to go do which is lying in bed for the next 12 hours, because you have to do that.

Stephanie Fornasier 27:03

And that does sort of differentiate us from I think there's also a a misunderstanding for people who are not part of the chronic illness community that people who are chronically ill and have to rest actually having a great time resting. And it's like, nice and fun when it's actually absolutely not

Chris Cosgrove 27:17

usually, what you don't want to be doing, you're sacrificing something that you want to be doing to go and do that. Yeah.

Stephanie Fornasier 27:24

I was reading as well, that it's not really about diet, but sometimes diet changes are a big part of that management. How has that affected your sort of diet as well?

Chris Cosgrove 27:35

Yeah. So diet with Crohn's specifically because it's an autoimmune condition. I think that's one of the big misconceptions that I get asked a lot when you say you've got Crohn's like, Ah, so like, what's that? What are you allergic to? Or what you what can't you eat it because people think it's something like celiac or like it like an allergy, but it's because it's an autoimmune. It's actually not triggered, particularly by a food. It's not caused by a food, but foods can aggravate the symptoms. So really common ones for Crohn's like usually, the first thing they'll say is, if you are a smoker, can you do everything you can to stop smoking, because they know that smoking really aggravates the condition, alcohol and coffee can also aggravate but there's also I mean, different different people, different food groups. So me certainly I know that alcohol, I can kind of have one or two, but not like perhaps when I was 18, if we go out, dancing and drinking, and I would still do it at that age, even though I had Crohn's, but I it was not good for me. And learning that actually, it's not worth that pain. Don't do it to yourself. For me, I have diet restrictions now. But again, it's sort of back to do with the bowel narrowing and structuring. So I've had, I think I've had four bowel resections. And they've kind of got shorter and interval. So there was like, it was like four years apart, and it was three years apart. And then the last one was two years apart. So when we get on to the film, basically, I made the film sort of six months after I'd had the bag come off, and they did a resection then. And then it was only the year after the film. So 2019 I needed another one. And I was aware that they were getting more complicated the procedures. I think the last two, I remember the surgeon saying afterwards, I don't want to do that again. And there was sort of some complications with the last surgery, we had sort of had lost a lot of blood during the procedure. And I just felt especially weak and drained after the last one. And perhaps it was just psychologically knowing that it only come to us from the one before and I always kind of feel like it takes about a year for me to kind of get back on track. Yeah, yeah, having that disruption in life. And so when after sort of a year after this last one, I started having the same symptoms again of sort of bowel obstructions. I just didn't want to jump back on the same bandwagon. I felt like I've lived with this condition long enough now after like 15 years that I am knowing my body pretty well and knowing how to look after myself. And so I spoke with my gastroenterologist and my surgeon and said, Look, you know, is there an alternative to just having another procedure? And there were His business was very sort of unconventional, which was basically they can give me like liquid nutrition. And usually that's reserved for quite elderly people who have other reasons why they can't swallow, but the product does exist. And you can live off that and get your nutrition, just lifestyle wise, most people choose not to do that. And for me, I thought, Well, I would actually rather have the consistency and the regularity in my life. That's what I felt like I was missing. I've just spent most of my 20s and 30s in a very unpredictable sort of lifestyle. So many times I've had to cancel a holiday at the last minute or, you know, had even just the next day, you know, had an important work thing on and then I've had dinner and then been throwing up on that, and I can't go to work the next day. Yeah, so I just wanted a period of stability. And so I decided I would give it a go. So I've now done that for the last two years where I've been living on the essential nutrition. So it's like the six poppers a day that I have. And I can still have things that are liquid and dissolvable. So I still get to have ice cream, which is great and custard and a lot of like sugary things because they dissolve not so much savoury things, and we've kind of just got a plan with my doctors where it's like, well, we'll just reassess every year. And you know, if you're maintaining your way, your inflammation markers aren't going up, you're not having bowel obstructions, then, you know, basically the balls in my court. If I get sick of it, then I can always go and have another procedure.

Stephanie Fornasier 31:22

Yeah, true. So how is it going so far has been successful for that two years?

Chris Cosgrove 31:27

It's in terms of not having bowel obstructions, absolutely successful. So awesome. That's been fantastic. The bigger journey, I guess it's like a psychological war for sure. But I guess, you know, we talk about superpowers that sometimes you can develop as a side effect of having health conditions or disabilities. I have learned a lot about how adaptable I am in terms of I guess, you know, we've talked about neuroplasticity, that I've learned some of those skills where I can know that look, this is hard now, but it's just a habit change. It's thought process change. And, you know, being aware of that, I guess, and I've been able to have some great therapist helped me. And so working through mentally the steps, I know that my body's okay, I'm not going to be vomiting. But psychologically, it's like, okay, this is really weird. You've been eating for let's give away the age 36 years, seven years. And now you're not eating, of course, that's gonna feel really weird. And you're gonna have days where you gotta feel pretty depressed about that,

Stephanie Fornasier 32:27

especially within so much of life is about food. And, you know, there's food festivals, and going out and socialising, as always around food and family. And yeah, so that must be a huge adjustment to me. Yeah. And

Chris Cosgrove 32:39

that is a whole separate thing. And I feel like that that was an issue before I even decided to go on liquid. Yeah, sure you're true. You're really spot on there that because so much of social activity is based around food, that a lot of people I think that I know, that have Crohn's or gastrointestinal issues, that can become quite stressful, just the thought of even like going to a social gathering, because we're going to be eating because you're always worrying like, well, what if they served this? Or what if I can't have that? Or what if I get asked about x y Zed? Particularly if that is something that is, you know, has been quite traumatic for you. It's this process of like, okay, we have to revisit this trauma every time we sit down for a group meal. And sometimes you just don't have the energy to do that. Or you don't necessarily want to do that official. And so yeah, in my circumstance, I've learned with essential nutrition. It's great for morning tea, wanting to your afternoon tea. So someone says, let's catch up for lunch, I'd be like, how about we catch up for morning tea instead? Because, you know, I can sit there and drink a coffee or drink a tea and still be engaging in the same situation as everyone else, as opposed to feeling like I'm being excluded or doing something different.

Stephanie Fornasier 33:48

Yeah. And I guess that's hard for other people to adjust to, to like having family dinners and stuff, where you know, you're, you won't be eating with everybody else. And which is should be completely fine and accepted. But I'm sure you get lots of questions. You know, just having that in conspicuousness.

Chris Cosgrove 34:03

It's the formal dinners that feel the weirdest, like, you know, I just had a wedding couple weekends ago, and that that day are weird when everyone's there and the laying out the formal dinners, and then you've got your little Papa there. I always feel like I'm a little six year old with my little piece of juice, Papa. Sometimes I'll pour it into a class just to feel fancy. Generally, people if you can explain it to them, you get really good at learning shorthand ways of explaining something that hopefully doesn't prompt too many follow up questions. But it's part and parcel of living with the condition. Yeah,

Stephanie Fornasier 34:39

yeah. It sounds like that. You've come through a lot of like you're saying, using therapeutic and Psychology, being able to accept that part of the journey in a way that hasn't stopped you from doing what you want to do? Yeah,

Chris Cosgrove 34:53

I try. Yeah, it's not always it's not always easy. And there are times when I fail, but I try. Yeah.

Stephanie Fornasier 35:00

Thank you for sharing all of that, because I think it's such a stigmatised condition it's so rarely talked about, particularly when things come to poo. People don't like to talk about poo, when we all poo. So well, you know, we all have a gastrointestinal system. So, you know, thank you so much for sharing and think being quite open about it as well. Actually, one question, did you feel comfortable talking about Crohn's from when you were first diagnosed? Or was that a bit of a journey as well?

Chris Cosgrove 35:28

Oh, absolutely. A journey. Yeah. It was really scary. Definitely at the start, because I didn't know anyone with Crohn's. I don't think I'd actually heard of the word Crohn's before I was diagnosed. So you kind of have to learn about it yourself first, before you get to the point where you're comfortable answering questions or talking about it. So yeah, it's definitely a journey in and of itself. And perhaps a segue into the film. But for me, I was doing two journeys. At the same time that I was diagnosed with Crohn's, it was only sort of six months after I'd came out to my friends and family, which I'm sure you know, the stress of that period of my life probably didn't help the condition, aggravated it. But it did mean that that that first couple of years, while I was sort of learning about Crohn's and learning how to talk about Crohn's, I was also during this simultaneous journey of sort of learning about my sexuality and how to talk about my sexuality. And there were a lot of very uncanny similarities of this whole coming out process of like, having to tell people things about yourself that perhaps you don't really want to right now, or, you know, is the right thing to do. But you're not really feeling terribly comfortable about talking about it just yet.

Stephanie Fornasier 36:34

And invasive questions, perhaps as a result of sharing

Chris Cosgrove 36:38

that? Exactly. Yeah.

Stephanie Fornasier 36:40

Well, thank you for sharing with me your story and to the audience. And yes, that is a great segue into Boldly Go, which is the film that you made, which you can everyone can watch on ABC iView right now, which is amazing. And I think it was published on them, like three years ago.

Chris Cosgrove 36:58

Yeah, it was. It was a pre COVID baby. Yeah, I was meant to fly for London for the Queer Film Festival, the week before the Board Shots are cancelling the flight. So it came out justice or that was sort of kicking off. Yeah.

Stephanie Fornasier 37:14

Which is so unfortunate, but I'm glad it slipped through at least for audiences to see online.

Apps absolutely love it. I remember watching it when I think you're sharing it online that you that you created it, and just thinking it was so well made. And amazing. And I can just see, hopefully, this is a compliment to you not, not anything else. But it reminds me of some of those amazingly raw and funny stories, like Please like me, and also heartstopper, which I'm watching at the moment, but just really beautiful. And acting was really good.

Chris Cosgrove 37:51

I love his back me. So that was Yeah. I think that's what I was aspiring for. Yeah.

Stephanie Fornasier 37:58

Fantastic. Um, so how did it start at like, you sort of shared a little bit about your own journey and why that might have been spider. But tell me a bit more about how it started out as a concept.

Chris Cosgrove 38:07

I had been teaching in Brisbane teaching video editing, sort of as my day job. And I'd always wanted to get into directing. And basically, health had taken over most of my 20s. And then I had this little window when Yes, when the bag came off, and 2017 after I've had it for three years. And having had that fresh resection sort of I got a new lease on life or something, I could eat things again, and I was putting on weight and generally just feeling better. And so I decided, Well, now's the best time, because it's probably only going to start to get worse again, physically. So now's the best time to do what you've always wanted to do. I've always wanted to go to there's like the National Film School in Sydney, the Australian Film, television radio school. And so I applied to do at that point, they had a one year directing grad certificate that was part time, it had to be part time that whatever I was going to do, yeah, and part of the application process, I'm pretty sure you've had to write a sort of a three or four page script. And so that was I think, when I wrote the very first draft for the film, I thought that was a story that I thought would be pretty unique, and one that I thought had my best shot of getting in. So it was probably a little bit manipulative in a way initially where it's like, you know, I'm just gonna give them the raw trauma and hopefully that yeah, the artistic kind of will love it and turned out at work. So that was kind of how it began, I guess getting into film school to do this one year course. And then the main assessment sort of the Capstone piece for the year was we would make a five minute short film that had to have two actors in one room. And I think that was it and all dialogue, one scene two actors, five minutes kind of thing was the restrictions. And so that was probably then when the script kind of evolved into what it is now.

Stephanie Fornasier 39:57

I think you did such an amazing job to like knowing that those people Your restrictions because like, if I was in film school, I'd be like, how do I, how do I make that engaging, but you really filter weld around the film. So like, you could tell that they had just come in there at a party in one of the main characters bedrooms, which is, you know, there's just so many layers to it. And like, you know, he's a sci fi nerd. And, you know, there's some questions around being comfortable with your sexuality, as well as the current representation to and one of the characters having a bag, and in five minutes, so much has conveyed in such a natural way to so I just think you smashed it. Not that I'm, you know, person who decides, but you know, I just think it was so brilliant.

Chris Cosgrove 40:38

If your listeners a little synopsis of Yes, yes.

Stephanie Fornasier 40:41

Sorry. I'm sort of going in assuming people have already watched it. But yes, give us a synopsis.

Chris Cosgrove 40:47

If you haven't watched it, yes. Basically, it's these two sort of early 20s. Guys, there's it's clearly that coming into a bedroom, there's a party going on outside, and they've been drinking, and there's sort of a flirtatious behaviour between them again, yeah, you're trying to figure out what's the relationship here, clearly, they have a bit of backstory, but you get the sense, this is sort of first kiss territory. And that's sort of what precedes to happen. But then one of them is then very uncomfortable suddenly, and wants the other one to leave the room. And that sort of sparks a bit of conflict, which at first, the person who's being rejected think it's because they're not comfortable with their sexuality, it's a bit of a red herring. But then the other person sort of admits that no, it's actually because they've had a surgery, and they have an ostomy bag, and they haven't had sex, since they've had it. And they're feeling sort of self conscious, which then ultimately leads to this moment of sort of acceptance from both of them where the person doesn't have the bag is sort of going well, at the end of day, I just like you, so I want to be with you. And the character who has the bag is sort of going on this transition of okay, I'm going to be really open about this thing that I'm really nervous and scared about and feeling some shame about perhaps, and then being embraced godless, in a very tight five minutes.

Stephanie Fornasier 42:03

It's so beautiful. Very, very tight. And yeah, that's I thank you for sharing that. Because hopefully that explains to the listeners why it's such a journey in such a short amount of time. I guess, one question I had to, because I did read some of the reviews of it as well, which were very positive, that there's like a sort of undercurrent story of shame, and how that's a common experience for people with ostomies. And also members of the LGBTQ i A plus community. How did you want to sort of like, what did you want to say about that sort of aspect of it through this film,

Chris Cosgrove 42:37

I guess that was sort of the heart of the film, like the theme that I sort of set out trying to hopefully achieve was looking at how you overcome shame, internally, like, if you're someone who's living that, what is necessary to actually get beyond that position. And I guess from my own personal journey, it was learning to completely let go and be prepared to be completely honest, completely accepting of your circumstances, the good, the bad, the ugly, and then allowing yourself to be vulnerable with the people that you care about, or that you want to have healthy relationships with. And so unless you can come to the table, being honest and open, you've got to make that first step. And then hopefully, the other person is going to meet you. You can't control what the other person is going to do. But if you can't make that first step, then of course, nothing's going to go anywhere. So I guess that was the journey, the emotional journey that I was wanting to show that that transition of I'm really nervous about this, I'm really scared about this, I'm uncomfortable about this thing about myself to Okay, well, I'm just going to trust you. And I'm going to tell you exactly how I feel raw, unfiltered, and hope that the other person kind of catches you. And I also really wanted really, really want to make a positive one because there's a lot of queer films, especially then tell that story, but they don't end well. You know, they always show the negative flip, where, and that happens in life. But personally, I'd seen a lot of those stories. And a lot of those films and I just didn't always find it helpful when I was coming out, seeing those stories and those films that pretend to make me more depressed or more closed off. And so I wanted to see one where, you know, it was a really healthy depiction. How that can conclude that relationship.

Stephanie Fornasier 44:30

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I agree. And it's really nice to see, I guess, almost like a blueprint of how one should respond when you know, someone is being very vulnerable and honest and open about something they feel nervous about, whether that's a bag ostomy bag, or whether that's how they identify, etc. So, the actor,

Chris Cosgrove 44:48

Adam does that really well for the interviewer and he just does this amazing sort of shift in his whole body language where he, you can see he's like, okay, he's thinking about it. So how do I respond to this? And then everything just kind of relaxes in him and it's like kind of reaches like, Okay, well, it doesn't really matter. I just have to be here with you like, yeah, I just have to be show up kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. Rest will sort itself out.

Stephanie Fornasier 45:13

meet you where you are. Yeah, yeah. How did you find the actors to? To their Nikolai Lafayette and Adam Salas. Yeah,

Chris Cosgrove 45:20

yeah, they were incredible. So again, your student filmmaker, I don't have a huge background in directing actors. So that was the point of that year. And it was a fantastic year, workshopping and learning techniques of working with actors, but they certainly had a lot more experience as actors and I had as a director, part of the challenge of the course, I guess, was that we didn't really get to do a proper audition process, which was just mostly because of resources. So we were able to work with like a casting agent where we could send them a profile of this sort of character is and then we could look at like an online directory and find actors and see their show reels and kind of pick a shortlist, and then send them the business who had love but you didn't you didn't know until the day of filming what actors were going to show up. So any rehearsal so the first time I met Adam was him arriving for the makeup room that morning, Nikolai, I cheated a little bit. Because he had come to a workshop earlier in the year and afters and he got assigned to me when we were workshopping an early version of the script, and he was just so fantastic. And I felt like okay, well, we've already done an hour of work with you. So let's like capitalise on that. So when I when it came time to casting him, I just put his name number one, I was like, Can I please have Nikolai. And thankfully, he was free and said yes. But the two of them hadn't even met each other as well. And wow,

Stephanie Fornasier 46:43

their chemistry is so strong.

Chris Cosgrove 46:46

It was incredible. And I you know, they were just so so generous, they, you know, for something that I think some actors could be really uncomfortable with the content, the subject matter, they really came again, open handed, and they taught me a lot. They were really respectful, really open to notes and dialogue. And they, even though they hadn't met each other before, I was so impressed with how well they're able to develop that chemistry, we didn't have a lot of time for rehearsal, I think we had like an hour full rehearsal and makeup. So the whole film is just actually watch the film, we made the whole film in a day, I think between like nine and 4pm. It was like a crazy amount of shots to get through which we also had to have like a 45 minute lunch break in the middle. And that had to include makeup. And mine, of course, was the only film that involves some sort of like, additional prosthetic, yeah, fit the bag and do a prosthetic scar. And so I realised that the only way we're gonna get to do this is if we can do the rehearsal during makeup. And so when we did the makeup, I got them to do some connection activities where it's sort of like a film school when they teach you where you do like 21st dates questionnaire. Yeah, we need each other. So you develop sort of some see really quickly. Yeah. And then the next thing I was like, Look, I'm just gonna be brave here, because I feel like it's gonna be really important that we have some sort of physical connection before we get out onto the stage for. And it got to the point where the makeup artist was about to start putting the bag on Nikolai. And I was like, well, I'll just see what happens. So I just said to Adam was like, Hey, do you by any chance want to put it on. And I think Adam could see exactly what I was doing. But again, he was like, really open and, you know, prepared to give it a go. And so he was like, Okay, and so that meant that the first time that ever really sort of touched each other, you know, beyond probably a handshake was then, you know, being physical in that space around the abdomen and making that connection. The other thing I did with the ostomy bag was I had filled it with like flour, Joe, which is like this, like silica gel with water in it, which gave it like a very, disgustingly accurate weight. And I remember when Nikolai the moment he put it on like trading is like, Oh, well, this is really weird kind of thing. And it was fantastic too, because it gave it straightaway this authenticity record, see? Yeah. Like our he was constantly like rearranging his pants and like making sure it wasn't falling off and like this. This feels weird. It's like yeah, exactly. That's exactly what it's like. Yeah, all the time when you have one. Yeah. So that worked really well.

Stephanie Fornasier 49:17

That's fantastic. I feel like that really came through to like the connection between them as well as how uncomfortable he felt in his body. So that's so brilliant. It's really nice to hear how you sort of achieved that in the background.

Chris Cosgrove 49:29

Yeah, they were amazing. Five stars.

Stephanie Fornasier 49:32

Awesome. So it did get selected for a lot of film festivals. I interpret that as winning awards. I'm sorry. Yeah, maybe misinterpreted that incorrectly. But yeah, sure. Share with me. Did you end up going to any of the film festivals that it was selected for?

Chris Cosgrove 49:50

The local ones? So I was able to do like Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane, and then the first international ones. I was Yes, I had my ticket to London. And it was going to play in the BFI theatre at Southbank. And then yeah. Thanks COVID. So cancelled the flight. And then I think the BFI then they were like the day before the screening day, because that first was like one of the festivals still going ahead. And the day before mine has meant to screen they then cancelled the festival, they did, I think, then put the whole thing online a couple of weeks later, and then sort of figured out how to do that. So that was a bit disappointing. But it was weird, because it then also then proceeded to do a lot of festivals across America and sort of Europe. And in fact, people at that point where it kind of I don't know if it worked in my favour, because everyone was looking for something to watch from home. And so there was a lot of festivals that did whole streaming festivals, film festivals, and so I got to do some q&a panels for festivals over zoom that I probably wouldn't have done because I wouldn't have been able to fly. Yeah, to do that. So you know, in some ways it might have given the film some more exposure. Yeah, so unfortunately, didn't win any official awards. But we got a lot of official selections, which is like the jury panel, sort of pick the film for the festival. So I was pretty happy with that. It was like it's my second film. I made a very dodgy film in my undergrad. But we won't talk about that. Undergrad film doesn't count. I was very happy that it Yeah, got the number of film festivals. And then the fact that ABC then picked it up for it. That was I was really happy with that.

Stephanie Fornasier 51:27

Yeah, it's pretty. It was also featured on film Inc, which is pretty popular publication. Yeah. Short film of the week for them. Yeah, was brilliant. I really love this audience feedback, which I found on YouTube. Sorry, I did a bit of stalking for the April to 2020 LGBT wildsound Film Festival. And they had a you probably notice better than me a video of everyone giving their feedback on boldly go. And someone said, I think there's snails that one of the most important succinct pieces of transformative media or cinema that I've seen in quite a while. And I absolutely mean that because representation fucking matters. I just think that really nailed that. Because yeah, I agree wholeheartedly, particularly with See, we harp on a lot about disability and film, it is really hard to find, apart from some of the more more ones that people are more aware of, it's really hard to find good representation of Disability in Film that isn't just like a joke, or a throwaway thing.

Chris Cosgrove 52:22

Yeah, there's perhaps there's a bigger discussion there, I think around just how accessible the industry is to the industry, which I think contributes to that. So even just in my own experience, I find it very hard. The nature of the film industry in Australia, and certainly seems to be the same in America. It's a very, very crazy work, hustle culture, it's very common people to do 12 hour, 14 hour shoot days, have six, seven hours off and come straight back to set and then proceed to do that for six weeks. Yeah, so I couldn't do that I'd be a little after week. And so unfortunately, the nature of that infrastructure, that whole system studio system, and the way that that's financed means that it has a lot of gatekeeping I think we're starting to see the shift, particularly I think, in Australia, through screen, Australia, and the state funding bodies, where they're in funding for diverse voices and access needs, which is fantastic. But until we start to see more of that, it's always I think, going to be limiting how many stories we see on screen. Yeah, definitely minorities or Yeah, with disabilities,

Stephanie Fornasier 53:31

particularly when we it's always better. It's always a better film, when it's created by someone with that lived experience. And if those people with lived experience, can't get through the door to actually make the film, then we're not going to see as many of those

Chris Cosgrove 53:43

you can always tell you can always tell when it's a film written by like, where the topic was not written by a person from that demographic or Yeah, minority. Yeah. So authenticity is I think, really important. Yeah, I

Stephanie Fornasier 53:55

think people want to see that as well. Audiences are usually smart enough to know when that this is a bit bullshit.

Chris Cosgrove 54:02

And like, I don't know if you've seen the new heartbreak high on Netflix. Yes,

Stephanie Fornasier 54:06

yes. We covered a podcast. Oh, yes. Okay.

Chris Cosgrove 54:09

I mean, I look at that and think yes, like, yes, there's a future here. That's where we need to understand that that model was

Stephanie Fornasier 54:16

also the SBS show late comers is great. haven't seen it yet. Oh, it's definitely worth watching. It's really good representation. And hopefully they'll it that opens the door to a lot more.

So on that note, let's talk about some depictions of IBD and ostomies in film and TV. Actually, before I go through them I wanted to mention one thing because I think it's pretty paralleled not film or TV thing, but have you heard of the musician? Perfume genius. Oh, yeah, love perfume. Yeah. So I did not know this. And I've listened to his albums many times but he has Crohn's and never Yeah, and he has used it in his music quite a lot discussed it a lot in interviews as well. And a lot of his lyrics are references to his life with Crohn's. And there's a few articles which I'll link where he talks about it, particularly during the pandemic lockdowns where he was quite unwell. And it sort of prevented him from being able to commit to the album that he was working on which he eventually did release. But yeah, I just thought that was really interesting, particularly as a queer person as well. Because his lyrics are also a very, very much referencing to being a queer person as well. So yeah, I just, I just thought that was interesting, because he's a musician that I love.

Chris Cosgrove 55:36

And oh, yeah. Oh, I'm gonna have to go and read all that. That's fantastic.

Stephanie Fornasier 55:39

Yeah. So now I just want to listen to all these albums and pick them up the references. Just thought I mentioned that because it's not in the film or TV industry, but obviously very established musician. But in terms of film, and TV, is there any particular references that you've seen to Crohn's in movies and shows that you'd like to talk about

Chris Cosgrove 55:58

there's not a lot, but I've got to be honest, I haven't seen a great deal out there. Usually, if there is a reference, it's it's a joke. It's like a punch line. And sometimes they're fantastic. I've got to say, there's been a few of those where I have laughed so hard, just because the fact that it's been mentioned, and then that it was a joke as well. The ones that come to mind, there's the show, the thick of it, which is a Armando Iannucci is the creator of Veep, this his first show, and there's a

Stephanie Fornasier 56:25

I haven't seen it, but I love it. Yeah, there's,

Chris Cosgrove 56:27

it's fantastic show, very dark satire, sort of government, bureaucratic cetera. And there's a fantastic scene where this new director comes into this department. And he sort of tried to tighten everything and make everything more efficient. And he's kind of whinging at one point to the office secretary about a staff member who's seen go to the bathroom for like, the 10th time today. And they're just clearly slacking off. It's just the Secretary just so coldly shuts him down, which goes something like, well, that's Kevin, and he has Crohn's disease, completely out of Glee. And then he's sort of like startled and shocked, or it's like, oh, I don't want to get cancelled, and sort of kind of moves on. But it was, again, just even though it's just mentioned for me, I was like, Oh, that was that was fantastic. Yeah. And there was another one I saw recently in Nora from Queens. Aquafina is Nora from Queens. Oh, yeah, I haven't seen that either. In the second season, she's working at like a CBD shop. And there's a customer that comes in who has Crohn's. And again, it's sort of just the punch line of the joke really. She's very pale, very emaciated, and mentioned that she has Crohn's. And then Nora just proceeds just talk over the top of her about like, her pooping habits. And it is quite funny, but perhaps not the best depiction in terms of agency or breaking down any stigma. Yeah, I must confess, I still laughed. But

Stephanie Fornasier 57:52

and do you think because I feel like it's still okay to laugh at those jokes. And I think sometimes I'm accused of like, trying to cancel a show because I don't like representation. But I think it's okay to engage with it and enjoy it. As long as we acknowledge that this is a bit off colour or, you know, that's not the best representation.

Chris Cosgrove 58:09

Yeah, just be critically aware of what you're watching and don't just take it you know, spoon fed. Yeah,

Stephanie Fornasier 58:14

definitely. I actually looked up ostomy bag on IMDb. And the results were just terrible. Like it wasn't. You know, there was like Joe references and films where I was like, was there an ostomy bag in that one, etc. But there was two films that did come up, which I haven't seen, but I thought might be worth mentioning. White Boy, Rick. It's a Netflix film from 2018 starring Matthew McConaughey. And it's a based on a true story of an a drug dealer Rick who is also an informant for the FBI. And in real life, that actual rig was shot by a drug lord, which severely damaged his large intestine and led to him having an ostomy. So like in that depiction of what happened, the main character, I don't think it's Matthew McConaughey. I think it's a younger man does wear a pouch and you actually see him see it on screen and see him emptying his pouch. And the screenwriter did say that they wanted to show some vulnerability, sympathy and empathy that the character deserved by depicting the ostomy in that way, and the United Ostomy association of America's Joy Hooper was quite happy about that film and said that she appreciated that depiction of displaying life with an ostomy and was able to show a negative aspect of life respectfully, so that's positive. I guess I haven't seen it. So I can't really say much more than that. Have you seen white boy, Rick? No. Obviously, it's not a depiction of IBD itself, but obviously an injury that led to having a pouch but it sounds like they wanted to depict that to create empathy for the character rather than to create some sort of awareness. Yeah, so yeah, maybe I'll watch that one day. I'm not sure it doesn't look that exciting. But one depiction, I thought sounded a bit not great. Again, not a The person who has IBD but in he was a quiet man starring Christian Slater. I haven't seen it. Have you seen it? No. A character Vanessa is shot during an assassination and becomes paraplegic with a colostomy bag. She has a love interest of the main character. And then in a moment where she's singing karaoke song, her colostomy bag falls to four and grosses out her audience. So I feel like having seen it can't really comment, but it sounds like it's used more as a shock device rather than anything helpful, useful

Chris Cosgrove 1:00:32

and interesting that they're both gunshot wounds. Yeah. But perhaps there's probably a lot of like, if there is a representation of an ostomy, that tends to be like a cup or something like that, like it's a bullet wound. Exactly. I guess it's mostly just probably because of Hollywood, because it's America, like, we don't get shot in Australia that frequently. So more likely the cause of an ostomy here is, you know, IBD or, you know, bowel cancer, but because it's the state's maybe that's why they're all bullet injuries,

Stephanie Fornasier 1:01:00

and it feels like it's used in a depiction and this is only two examples. There's not many others to sort of represent that injury and how bad the injury was, you know, this poor person has to have a bag rather than trying to normalise it, I guess. Yeah. So more for for narrative Hollywood shock value than anything else. Yeah. Because it's not as fun to depict someone with Crohn's with a bag.

Chris Cosgrove 1:01:22

Yes. And I guess it's interesting to think about in terms of how one of those unusual things with the ostomy bag in terms of okay, well, how do we portray this on screen where it's like, okay, you want to normalise it. But you also don't want to be seen that you're just using it as a plot device to create conflict. Yeah, gross out the audience and create disgust. And so I think that's interesting. Like, when you talk about that first example, where it showed you an empty the bag, you could film that in so many different ways, just in terms of your coverage to be more sympathetic of the person and their emotional journey, or is just like a Hollywood gaze where it's just to show something really gross, close up, or faeces or whatever. And so even just the choices you make as a director sometimes can really change. Yeah, I see.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:02:06

Like, I probably should have watched like the clip, it'd be interesting to see what kind of music underlies that say like, is it really like Eerie music? Or is it like casual music? I think that would make a difference. If we're supposed to be like disgusted or just intrigued or whatever. Is there anything that you've seen involving colostomy bags, especially leading up to making balding? The only one

Chris Cosgrove 1:02:28

I remember seeing that actually, where I saw last week bag on screen before making the film was insensate. In the first season, I think it's like episode two, or something's early on. Again, it's a cup and it's like a scene in a bar. And he's like fighting with his son. And again, sort of like a throwaway joke where he throws his ostomy bag on the table in the pub kind of thing is like, your stuff you to the sun and like, and laughs is kind of deliberately to Grace him out. All I remember thinking at the time when I saw that, because I hadn't asked me at that point in time was like, they're not plug and play like just to do that without one like making a gigantic mess. And you know, sticking out the entire pub. I just remember thinking like, Oh, if only it were that easy. If only it were that simple. Yeah.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:03:17

Probably wasn't written by someone who's had an ostomy. No. Oh, one thing I came across as well, which actually got me thinking about this episode is I was reading about alien. And I read that Crohn's was apparently the inspiration from the writer Dan O'Bannon, who had Crohn's disease, and after experiencing all the symptoms and distress from Crohn's, he felt like and this is his This is a quote, the digestion process felt like something bubbling inside of him struggling to get out which gave him the idea of one of the most iconic scenes from Alienware that alien punches its way out of John hurts chest in that dinner scene. I thought that was interesting, because apparently was quite secretive about his Crohn's disease, the writer and you know, when we think about alien, like we think about that scene, so I don't know what have you. I'm assuming you know, yeah, I

Chris Cosgrove 1:04:11

love it. I only just saw this story the other night. And I think it's amazing. I'm so excited by that anecdote, because even though he was secretive about it, and you know, obviously was, you know, on a campaign of awareness about the illness or condition or anything, I was also fascinated that it's like, ah, isn't that amazing that you've taken something that again, can be a real struggle, and you've used it as inspiration, not only to make art, but one of the most iconic film scenes in cinema history?

Stephanie Fornasier 1:04:39

Yeah,

Chris Cosgrove 1:04:40

there's someone with Crohn's. I was like, I'm taking that that's mine. Yeah. That really made me excited reading that because it's exactly what it feels like when you've got extreme abdominal Crohn's pains. It's like yeah, that's what it feels like. There's an alien trying to and I've probably made that joke at times, but like, I feel like there's an alien trying to burst out of my belly. No. And I'll never look at alien the same now. Watch that same. Yeah,

Stephanie Fornasier 1:05:04

I think that also speaks to how iconic alien is to because I know as a woman who's gone through childbirth, I think often people will see that scene not knowing that sort of backstory as a metaphor for childbirth and how violent it is and how how it feels having an alien inside your body. So it's nice knowing and I hope hopefully more people know hopefully, it gets out more and more. It sounds like it's more people are more aware of it now that that's, you know, where that came from, and transforming your struggles with IBD into something so creative and far reaching.

Chris Cosgrove 1:05:43

I also just liked the idea too. It's like, okay, cool. So you're saying I can have Crohn's and make an award winning script? Yeah. lived on forever in Hollywood. Sure. Cool. Good to know. It's achievable.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:05:54

Yes. So I guess to to wind up in this arena. We both watched the king of Staten Island, which was one of the things that did come up of like Crohn's being a big part of it. So King of Staten Island is a 2022 film directed by Judd Apatow, written by Pete Davidson and Judd Apatow and Dave Cyrus, which is loosely autobiographical, first of all, what did you think of King of Staten Island?

Chris Cosgrove 1:06:25

I enjoyed it. Yeah, so I rewatched it the second time, I think I started it came out and I watched it again last night. I like Pete Davidson's like comedic performance abilities. I think he manages to balance like the bit like Robin Williams, I think in some ways, like he can do really big bold comedy, but then also then do really sort of vulnerable human drama, which is a rare thing in an actor. So I think I always enjoy watching him on screen. And it's also there's like an element of unpredictability or is when you're watching him you like he don't know what he's going to do next, just even in a sentence with his face or with his body. So I think I found that boys fascinating with him. And then the story itself, I thought was pretty good. Pretty feel good.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:07:09

I have to admit, I haven't really paid attention to Pete Davidson until he started dating Kim kinda. I don't know, I think because I haven't watched a lot of the later Saturday Night Live, which is sort of weddings break. He broke out. I kind of missed him. But he's very, he's very clever and very funny. Yeah, I so the film is very similar to his life in that I guess it's about a young man who must get his life together after his mom starts dating a new man, his mother played by Mercer to me, who's very good. And the new man that she started dating is Bill Burr, another comedian I haven't really engaged with who like Pete Davidson, the character and himself, like his deceased father is a firefighter. So so the character in King of Staten Island is played by Pete is an aspiring tattoo artist who smokes a lot of weed and has a casual relationship with his childhood friend. So Pete Davidson said this, this was kind of the film, what would have happened if he hadn't become a comedian. And in real life. Pete's father was a New York City firefighter who actually died in service during the September 11 2001 attacks, which really affected him. Pete was seven when he died and attributes that death to a lot of his experiences growing up where he said he quote, unquote, acted out, but also had some pretty significant mental health issues, including suicidal ideation. So I think as a mental health perspective, it's really amazing that he's been very vulnerable with sharing that on screen, but he also was diagnosed with Crohn's in real life at age 17, or 18, which is also mentioned in the film. I thought there would be more about Crohn's, but there was really just a couple of lines, but I thought they were good lines.

Chris Cosgrove 1:08:47

What do you want me to? Yeah, I think they said something that doesn't get spoken about very often in films just anyway. And you kind of grab that like, Oh, yeah. It's a great. And again, that authenticity, the fact that like, he himself has Crohn's, and he's the performer and the CO writer was great to see. I think it happens about three times from memory. There's three references. Yeah. The first one is early on, he's fighting with his mum, because she starts dating Bill Burr, and he's not happy about that. And he's like, why are you doing this to me, like my last hand enough as it is, you know, between dad dying, you know, and I've got Crohn's and that sort of thing. But it's the second scene. I think that's probably the most some sort of representation, I guess where that is at a ballpark with Bill Burr. You know, Bill Burr is trying to get to know him better. And Bill Burr is there with all his other fun and sort of coworkers, and they're watching a baseball game,

Stephanie Fornasier 1:09:40

including Steve Buscemi. Oh, yes, for some reason.

Chris Cosgrove 1:09:45

And I think Steve machine was the one who asked him do you want to and then he goes, I know I kind of got Crohn's and then he goes, Oh, what's that? And he says that's where like the lining of my guts all messed up. And so I just need to shit all the time. Think something like that. Yeah. And then A bill burr says next time just say you don't like hotdogs. And I thought that was great. Actually, I laughed a lot at that moment. Yeah.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:10:07

And his response is like, I'm just trying to raise awareness which

Chris Cosgrove 1:10:13

that was when I laughed. Yeah. I need to get kind of like flippantly. Yeah. So I'm very on the nose. I'm just trying to raise awareness.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:10:21

I feel like that is the conversation I would have with boomers, if you know, if I had codes it would be or you know, you're having mental illness or whatever it'd be. I'm just trying to raise it. Like, let me learn. I can say, yeah, it's very, very felt like a very natural conversation. It was

Chris Cosgrove 1:10:36

great. It was. And it was great, too, because it also highlighted like we talked about earlier, one of the things is awkward is doing group eating activities. Yeah. So it captured that quite succinctly, I thought, and that balancing act where you're always I think, particularly I felt with Crohn's, where it's like, how much information do you give away because you have to provide for explanation and context. But you also don't want to grease people out. And it's also one of those things to where it's just the nature of it. It's not something you definitely want to talk about while eating. Yeah, eating the time, you're prompted to talk about it. contradiction that happens. Yeah. So you sort of feel like you're there's no way to win here. And I thought it captured that very well. That

Stephanie Fornasier 1:11:15

same. Yeah. And the response that you often get from people who don't feel comfortable about that, like, just don't mention it. And yeah, their immediate response of being like, no, that's too much information, when Yes, it's common knowledge that everyone has a system that gives waste. Related to that you don't often see him eat, or you don't really see him eat in the film, at all from memory. But one thing that he does engage a lot with is marijuana, which apparently he's Pete Davidson has used medical marijuana for a lot of his life, although he has reduced some of the use of it over time. And he, you know, has also engaged in other recreational drugs, which he's had some struggles with, as well. But he does attribute his ability to work and to function with medical marijuana. And if he didn't, you know, that's the only thing that's really helped him to eat and manage his pain. So it's good to hear obviously, this is more more in interviews, rather than in the film that aren't really mentioned why he smokes weed a lot. But it's good to hear some positive representation of self management in that way, if that works for you.

Chris Cosgrove 1:12:20

Yeah, I think I read one of the interviews where he said somewhere that he couldn't even go on stage for SNL, usually because of the abdominal pain from Crohn's unless he had had medical marijuana or CBD. And I just thought that was really interesting and fascinating, too, that just kind of gave you an insight into the severity of the condition. And it also kind of highlights I think that thing of the we just never really know the struggles necessarily, that people are going through the nature of and visible illnesses, that on the surface, it's very easy to see Pete Davidson and just be like, Oh, you're like a celebrity, you know, international celebrity on TV. Your life can't be that hard. And yet, it's like, okay, well, there's this thing that literally, you know, preventing you from doing the thing you're famous. Yeah. And you have to manage that.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:13:05

Yeah, and especially with media really playing up a lot of drug use in celebrities as well. Because before I knew anything about Pete Davidson, like I'd heard a bit about his is been a better to rehab a few times, he's actually been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder, which he gets treatment for, and PTSD. And, you know, that's also great to hear some of that representation too, is that, you know, he's not just the media likes to beat up people who engage with drugs as being like the crazy guy. And, you know, he's, he's, you know, having problems and he's sort of seen that light as being, you know, just a drug addict or whatever. And I think it'd be nice to have a little less stigma about any drugs, but also the fact that it's okay. You know, that he uses weed to help him and that shouldn't be like a stigma

Chris Cosgrove 1:13:53

growth that he's been so vocal about it, I think in interviews as well. Yeah, sharing that awareness. Because I think I remember there was something in the gossip stuff recently where someone on Twitter had, like a famous comedian had made a joke about you know, how sunken in his Paley was and like, the raccoon eyes, whatever. And it was one of his girlfriends that like replied on, on Twitter being like you realise he has an autoimmune disease like, yeah, these remarks that people can make sometimes offhandedly, without thinking about the reality of that circumstance.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:14:24

Yeah. And how harmful that is not just I mean, Pete Davidson doesn't care. But your friend with Crohn's disease might care. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And apparently in his standup, he mentions Crohn's. Like he uses it for stand up material as well, which, as you say about like, you know, comedians in general, it's a nice way to channel your struggles into an art form. I haven't seen any of it, but now I will probably. Is there anything else you wanted to say about King of settling because there's not a lot of current content in it, but in terms of representation, I felt like it was pretty good.

Chris Cosgrove 1:14:57

Yeah, I've got to say it's probably the best I've seen. In terms of like something mainstream that one, it references that tick. Two, it's actually authentic. You know, he has Crohn's, and he's the one who's the storyteller tick. And three, there was some attempt to kind of, you know, look at the subtext there of what that's like to live with in terms of just societal complications that happen day to day around eating and misunderstandings with other people. Yeah. So,

Stephanie Fornasier 1:15:26

in a way,

I think it's good to see not as a plot point as well as just I have Yes. Because we don't see a lot of that in films, unless it's like this is the movie about this person has this thing. Like eating disorders or whatever. And normalised. Yeah, it's very normalised. And people can feel seen, and it without it being like, too, on the nose, in your face.

I guess in terms of that, and knowing that we've got one little bit of one film, what would you prefer to see for more depictions of Crohn's and more appropriate representation?

Chris Cosgrove 1:16:04

Yeah, it's interesting, because I think it goes back to what we were talking about earlier, where it's the nature of the condition is it is a challenging one, I think, for any sort of screen depiction, where it's such a fine line that you're walking between, are you trying to raise awareness and normalise condition? Or are you now exploiting this for storytelling, or for conflict purposes, or, you know, shock and awe to the audience? So it's interesting, I've thought about, you know, future films that I might make. And some people asked me what I have looked at, you know, adapting Bob would go into a feature. And I've kind of struggled to think about, okay, well, how, how do you do that, in the sense of, no one wants to just watch a film where someone's just going to talk all the time. And so it's sort of you want to give visibility to the illness and awareness about it. But there's also not necessarily a need to be hyper focused on elements, I guess that. And so that probably just comes down to authenticity. I feel like people who have that lived experience are going to make those judgments better, that they're going to know what sensitive and what's appropriate, and probably have a better understanding of you know, what it is that they would like to see on screen? Yeah.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:17:16

What do you think in navigating that? Is there anything you can see yourself doing to ensure that you're representing it in a way that's authentic, but also entertaining, but also not too exploitative? Um, so I'm sure you probably wouldn't do that? Well, I think

Chris Cosgrove 1:17:31

for me, it would be about focusing more on the individual and like the emotional state, and like, psychologically, I guess the journey that they're going through, that you can reference things in the physical world, but you don't necessarily need to focus on that. Yeah, the lens or with the editing. A more compelling narrative is, I think, the journey that you have to go on as an individual of internal growth or learning to balance, you know, chronic illness and day to day life. Learning how to navigate relationships with something that also is going to be taxing on your emotional and psychological wellness. I think that's probably the better point to come at it from it's focusing on emotionally the storytelling aspect of it rather than the physicality.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:18:21

Yeah, yeah. And I feel like you did that really well, in boldly go and that we see the bag, but it's not like the central piece. Like, yeah, it's done in that sort of way, where it's really about the emotions rather than the bag itself. Yeah.

Chris Cosgrove 1:18:35

The internal conflicts. Yeah. If

Stephanie Fornasier 1:18:37

you were to give anyone advice that anyone making films in the space or wanting to make a film about chronic illness, what would what would your advice be,

Chris Cosgrove 1:18:45

I'd probably go back to that review that representation effing matters? Yes. If you're going to do it, and you don't have a chronic illness, then go and get people who do have chronic illnesses and bring them in and you know, that hold nothing about us without us. So find people who have lived experience and talk to them, and listen to their stories, and then go about crafting that into your story. I think that'd probably be my main takeaway. And if you're somebody who has a chronic illness, and you're interested in telling that story, just go and do it. There's no real rules. You're if you're telling your story, you can do it your way. So filmmaking has never been more accessible. I think that is today, you can actually you can make an award winning film on your mobile phone, you can shoot it, edit it, submit it, it's kind of just up to you having the decision and the ability to go out there and make it yourself.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:19:34

Yes, agreed. And lastly, what advice would you give to anyone recently diagnosed with Crohn's are about to have a colostomy bag fitted?

Chris Cosgrove 1:19:45

Yeah, they're good questions, but two different things. Yeah. If you've just recently been diagnosed with Crohn's, most people who are diagnosed with Crohn's young, the service and teens late teens is the most common period late teens early 20s. If I think back about when I was was diagnosed with Crohn's things that I would probably want to hear one that, okay, this is scary, but it's not going to define you like you can still live a version of a good life, it will be challenging, yes. But it's not going to mean that you can't do things that you want to do, you just might have to do them differently, and change some of your strategies that you can still achieve your goals in some way, I'd say also, seek out support networks that are going to help you so that, you know, friends and family that you've trust that, you know, I got to look out for you. But then also, you know, various medical support networks. So Crohn's and Colitis, Australia is a fantastic organisation, they've got a great website with a whole lot of information on it. Be really careful about what you study online. My other advice, having gone through it as well, that like a lot of medical conditions, the temptation is just to go to google and type it in. There's a lot of horror stories out there. A lot of misinformation, it's very easy to lose perspective. And to just get really scared, I've got to say, I remember googling things, and then reading stories and just being like, oh my gosh, it's just gonna happen to me. And so just one anecdote from one person out of you know, the entire global population does not represent your life. And in fact, I tend to feel it's the people who have, unfortunately had the most challenging stories, or, you know, the most medical trauma are the ones who are probably most likely to then talk about it. Yeah. Which makes sense as well. Yeah, it makes sense. It makes sense. But it does also give you a weird confirmation bias, where you're like, oh, everyone's grinds is going to end up like this. Whereas, you know, when I think about my younger brother, who, you know, yes, crime has been a challenge for him, but he's never had to have any surgeries to date. And he's only two years younger than me, you know, he's probably not as likely to jump on our current message board and write about that. And that's actually a lot of people. So yeah, that'd be my other advice, just, you know, take everything you read online with a grain of salt. And I guess the last thing would be, you're allowed to be picky with your medical team, then, I mean, in Australia, we're very lucky, maybe not so much in America, but whoever is your gastroenterologist, it's gonna be like, most likely some sort of long term relationship with them, managing your condition. So I think it's really important that you find someone that you can work with, that you feel like he's listening to you, that you're present and seen with and that you're getting from them what you need. And if you're feeling like that's not happening, right at the start, that's not a great sign. So you can go back to your GP and ask for a referral to another gastroenterologist. If you're in a capital city, there's going to be a couple to choose from. And that's okay, like you're allowed to do that would be my other advice.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:22:50

I guess, part of that is also being able to advocate for yourself, and if that's difficult, which it can often be having that support network to help advocate for you, as well. Yeah,

Chris Cosgrove 1:23:00

yeah. Yeah. And again, that's where sort of currently clients Australia as well, and support groups can help you in terms of what you might tell someone who's about to have an ostomy that can be for any number of conditions, and all sorts of ages and stages of life. Medically, I would say, you know, get in touch with the stoma nurses, that most of the hospitals who do those procedures will have a dedicated stoma nurse whose job is there for patient support and education. And they really, you know, that's their job, they're very skilled at it, and they will have an abundance of resources to be able to help you with the next thing I would say is if you're about to have one, yes, it is a change to your life that again, you will be surprised that you'll still be able to do so many things that you think right now you won't be able to do I remember thinking like, I'm not going to go swimming, you know, yes, I was able to go swimming. There's so many things that you will still be able to do. It will be difficult for the first few weeks where you just physically healing but once that is sort of out of the way you can live pretty much a regular day to day life,

Stephanie Fornasier 1:24:08

which I feel is reflected in Bowlby go to is that, you know, the characters at a party he's drinking, he's hopefully gonna get some later, you know, he's exactly able to do all the things

Chris Cosgrove 1:24:19

yeah, there's also like accessories you can get that can make life so much easier. One that he references in the film, I normally have a belt, it's in the wash, you can get the sort of, they're kind of like made out of wetsuit material that I like, kind of like what people have for like hernia support, like a strap that goes around your abdomen, and it just holds the bag and everything in place. And so if you're planning on doing exercising or swimming, it's fantastic because you just have so much more peace of mind and it almost feels like it's not there. So you know if you can get one of them, they're great. You can get all sorts of funky covers people make on Etsy. You want one that's got like dinosaurs on it or you know adiposity is you know, add some style to your bed. I agree. And then I think yeah, the last thing I would say is that it's also quite common when you start out that, you know, everyone's bodies are shaped differently. And so it's impossible to make a single product that's going to fit for everyone. And there's like a huge range of products out there. Different systems, like One Piece systems, two piece systems, different kinds of adhesive different base plates. And part of that initial journey is just like, like shopping for shoes, like just finding the right device that fits for you. And it's not uncommon, like I talked about a story of me going the first couple days and having a leak that's quite common at the start, because you're still trying to figure out one how to even apply it yourself. And then to be like, is this the right piece for me? And so don't think just because those first few weeks, it's like, oh, it's leaking all the time. This is what my life is gonna be. It's not it's just bumpy at the start while you kind of iron out the kinks. Yeah. And then, generally after that, it's fairly smooth sailing. And I found in my case, I was healthier with the bag. And that's, you hear that a lot, too. Generally, if you need to have an ostomy bag, then you tend to be better for having it. Yeah.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:26:09

It's better quality discomfort. Yeah. Thank you so much for that. I hope lots of people hear this podcast episode and hear that advice, because it's really amazing advice. And I feel like people really appreciate having some guidance in the space when it's, you know, can be quite scary at first as well. Yeah, thank you. So before I let you go, is there anything you'd like to plug obviously your film? How can we see it besides ABC iView, and your social media contacts if you're happy for people to follow?

Chris Cosgrove 1:26:38

So for the film, it's an Australia exclusive, so it's only on ABC iView. However, if you are outside of Australia, and you search for the film, there may or may not be several pirated copies already floating around on various streaming sites. So I'm always there's nothing I can do about that. Sorry.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:26:55

I mean, that just means you've made it that you're going pirate. Yeah, exactly.

Chris Cosgrove 1:26:59

Yeah, it can it can be found. Just go back a few more tabs on Google and you'll find it. As for socials, yeah, if you're interested in my film, and you know what I might be up to next, I'd probably the best thing you can do is follow me on Instagram, my handle, it's just CJC underscore films. And you can also check out my website, which is just my name, Christopher coz grove.com.

Stephanie Fornasier 1:27:23

Awesome. And if you've got anything that you're working on at the moment, or in the future, I have just

Chris Cosgrove 1:27:28

started working on some scripts. Again, I think like a lot of people after COVID was sort of a bit discombobulated and refunding my feet and I had been a bit unwell again with Crohn's and so now that that's sort of stabilising, again, let me back in that like, okay, let's, let's get writing. So I'm playing around a couple of short film script ideas at the moment. And I'm also I want to have a go at writing pitching a pilot for a TV series. Yeah, based on a kid's book that I really love, but kind of in the sort of like a stranger, also. Great. Well, thank

Stephanie Fornasier 1:28:04

you so much for coming out to Psychocinematic. And talking to us. It was such an interesting and wonderful chat, and I really appreciate your time. No worries. Thanks for having me. This podcast is not designed to be therapeutic, prescriptive or constitute a formal diagnosis for any listener. For a longer version of this disclaimer, please check the Episode notes on your podcast app.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai