Balancing Romance and Care in Disabled Relationships

Alistair Baldwin
This episode is recorded on the land of the Wurundjeri Woiwurrung people of the Kulin Nation and would like to give our respect to their elders past and present. Love Without Limits is a podcast about intimacy and, yes, sex. Just a heads up, we'll be talking openly about topics that might not be for everyone.

Madeleine Stewart
I’m Madeleine Stewart

Alistair Baldwin
And I'm Alistair Baldwin and you're listening to Love Without Limits, the podcast where we throw shame out the window, we talk openly about sex, love, intimacy in the lives of disabled people. And on today's episode, we're diving into how caregiving and clashing access needs can impact disabled relationships. Now, Maddie, there is something really nice about hooking up with like another disabled person because they just get it. There's this radical understanding.

Madeleine Stewart
And as we've said multiple times in this podcast, disabled people do make the best lovers. We just do because we have to be creative. I'm super curious to talk to today's guests around some of their lateral thinking solutions that they've employed, you know, to work around, work with their access needs. I'm so keen.

Alistair Baldwin
Our two guests in the studio now have been together for 27 years and married for 18. Mia and Troy Wallace. Mia has osteogenesis imperfecta and Troy has spina bifida. Mia is a disability advocate and is part of several advisory groups. She is also Troy's carer. And I'd love to welcome you both to the studio.

Mia Wallace
Thank you for having us.

Madeleine Stewart
Mia and Troy, it's so nice that you're here. Now I'm going to be bit nosy. Can you tell us a bit about your relationship? Like how did you meet? What drew you to each other?

Troy Wallace
I'll leave that one for you.

Mia Wallace
Oh, thanks. I knew he was going to say that. So, we first met when I was 13. I went to a special school, and I know a lot of people don't like that word, but it is what it is. So I started off at a special school. And then on Friday nights, we used to have sort of after school events. And that's where Troy and I first met, but didn't get together. Then we met many moons down the track. Here we are.

Alistair Baldwin
Right. What was the after-school events?

Mia Wallace
They were discos and movies, so very common for special schools to have those. 90s and the 80s were just... There were bands sometimes, there was like a DJ.

Alistair Baldwin
Yeah. So you had this shared backstory and then how did you guys reconnect?

Mia Wallace
So it was a school reunion for my school, but it was open to everyone at that point. So Troy's actually... was basically like the same thing. Yeah. So Troy's rocked up with a friend who I also knew, and that was it.

Alistair Baldwin
Were you both at that time, were you looking to date or were you looking for that special someone or did you catch each other off guard?

Mia Wallace
I think a bit of both. I was kind of ready.

Troy Wallace
I had a girlfriend before. It would of fizzled out obviously

Mia Wallace
I had few disaster relationships and stuff like that. yeah, it was, I was a little bit hesitant, but.

Troy Wallace
The one time I did have the girlfriend before Mia obviously was a friend of Mia’s

Alistair Baldwin
Oh, well the journalist in me wants to ask a million follow-up questions but you know

Mia Wallace
She was actually my best friend at the time. But Troy also dated someone that was able bodied.

Troy Wallace
I dated an able bodied. That was good.

Mia Wallace
That brought out the curiosity in me.

Alistair Baldwin
What do you think were the differences, you know, between being in a relationship with someone who's able-bodied versus I guess that shared understanding when you're with another disabled person?

Troy Wallace
Probably that, as you just said, shared understanding, with an able-bodied person they’re not understanding of limitations or personal things going on in your life, things like that, probably another reason that fizzled out

Alistair Baldwin
Did you have a particular inclination one way or another about being with a partner who had a disability or not?

Troy Wallace
For me, no.

Mia Wallace
Same. If it happened, it happened. If it happened with an able-bodied body person, fine. It didn't matter to me either.

Madeleine Stewart
Always been curious about two disabled people who date each other, whether or not your access requirements clash, your access needs and has that ever happened to you and how did you navigate that?

Mia Wallace
Oh absolutely. Things have changed a lot for me in the last couple of years, probably in the last 10 years, health-wise. So there's a lot now I can't do, even though I am carer to Troy,. I'm wife first off. People look at me, they say, you're a carer. No, I'm wife first and then carer. And we care for each other. That's the bottom line. So...But things have changed a lot for me in the last 10 years. There's been, you know, just the osteogenesis and perfecta side of things comes with a lot of chronic pain and a lot of other stuff to go along with it. So it's changed a lot. So he's been very accommodating, very patient. His patice, whereas I don't have the patience, I just want to just get on with it. some days it's like, na, you're not, but you know, I just want to get on with it. Whereas he’s the patient one and I'm the, you know, bull at a gate

Alistair Baldwin
Did you find that from people around you that they were making lot of assumptions about who was doing what kind of caring or whether someone was all receiving care versus... I feel like there's a lot of care that goes invisible in relationships with disabled people.

Mia Wallace
Absolutely, absolutely. We do find that, and we still find that. We still find that. So it's sometimes when we're out, they don't get it. They just don't. Like Troy, if we're in a crowd, Troy will go ahead of me because I feel more comfortable or do little things or we may enter a disabled toilet together and we get the looks. But it's only because...

Alistair Baldwin
The Winks

Mia Wallace
Yeah, it’s like, and we come out and it's like, you know, what are you two doing in there helping each other actually, you know, like in case I fall, or Troy might need to get his bag off the back of the chair or getting on and off the toilet and vice versa.

Alistair Baldwin
Right. And you feel that scepticism from abled people that someone with a disability can be a carer to another person.

Mia Wallace
Spot on, they think, well, we need a carer each. Not always the case. Troy has a support worker, you know, when he goes out. But within the home and when we go out together, then it's a different scenario.

Madeleine Stewart
I was just wondering how does that impact the relationship dynamic?

Mia Wallace
It happens together. Yeah, that's a good question actually. It happens together. But as I said, first I'm a wife, friend and then carer. So if anything Troy needs, he knows to ask and I'm the same. But we just make it happen. We don't assume, it just happens.

Alistair Baldwin
Have you taken any steps to protect or prioritize that romantic connection? Any strategies so that, you know, stuff like having a support worker, do more stuff or...

Mia Wallace
Yeah, and that's why we ended up with a support worker, because it got to the point where I was doing a lot, and the time will come for me to have a support worker, which is probably sooner rather than later. So, and it's been fantastic for Troy, because he can talk to this person, you know, about boy things, and they can go and do boy things, and they can talk whatever they want. I couldn't care less.

Alistair Baldwin
Well I'm interested about these boy things

Mia Wallace
So, and it's been fantastic. It's been really good. So, and it gives me time to myself just to chill and just to relax.

Troy Wallace
It gives us both a bit of time away from each other and to chill as you said

Alistair Baldwin
Makes the heart grow fonder. Yeah. Troy, could you speak to that shift? You know, how did it feel, I guess, bringing in the support worker to take on more of the carer role so that you could, I guess, focus on time for yourself, but also time just for the romantic aspects of your relationship?

Troy Wallace
My support worker and I we go out to movies. Mia's not feeling up to anything. I'll go out with him… go to the football, get me out of the house, give Mia a bit of space.

Madeleine Stewart
Are there things about being disabled and dating another disabled person that you wish more people understood?

Mia Wallace
I've always said to an extent I don't mind people asking us questions. People find it strange sometimes even when we're together. They assume we're friends.

Troy Wallace
We have a lot of people like if we go to a shopping centre, they assume that we're just friends. Oh I saw your friend over there

Mia Wallace
And I will always pull them up on it because.

Troy Wallace
No we're married

Mia Wallace
Yeah we're married. We have had people ask us how we have sex.

Alistair Baldwin
Right, just straight up no hello my name is...

Mia Wallace
No, So, you know, how do you two have sex? Would you like me to show you? Really?

Alistair Baldwin
Buy me a drink first

Troy Wallace
It’s a start, yeah

Mia Wallace
I just think you wouldn't ask an able-bodied person that question.

Alistair Baldwin
No, no

Troy Wallace
Same with the relationship as I was just saying, like, where's your friend? You wouldn’t ask an able-bodied couple where's your friend? Why assume that we are just friends?

Mia Wallace
That's right. And they find it strange that we're independent as much as we can be. We're in our own home. We've been out of home since for a long time now and it's been fantastic. For both of us, we have had our highs and lows, but that’s with anyone, whether you have a disability or not

Alistair Baldwin
Are there any moments that you're really proud of in your relationship where you've managed to navigate something together in terms of, I guess, finding intimacy or, I guess, a new dimension to your relationship?

Mia Wallace
I think you got to do what works for you in the intimacy part of things and on the sexual side of things. You have to find what works for you. It doesn't work for everyone. Not everyone's under the same umbrella. And there's some things that I can do, can't do, and the same for Troy. So you've just got to find what works for you.

Alistair Baldwin
Well a recurring theme on this podcast is how disabled people make the best lovers because we have to be creative and able people to learn what they need to do in sex ed and are on auto-pilot

Mia Wallace
Absolutely. Creativity is our number one. you know, you've just, you got to find what works for each other and not yeah for each other.

Alistair Baldwin
Fabulous. And did you feel like there was any support for you to find that stuff? Do you think there's information or enough information out there?

Mia Wallace
No, no, we just Googled. Honestly, I just went and Googled. I didn't even ask any other disabled people because not that I didn't feel comfortable, just, probably at the time I didn't think of it. However, we just worked it out, didn't we? We just worked it out.

Alistair Baldwin
You can speak in as much or as little detail as you like, but are there any examples of those creative solutions or tools or strategies that you can save someone to Google?

Mia Wallace
Look, I'll be honest, we used a few toys. that was what works for everyone, great. If it doesn't, again, you have to find the right thing that works for you.

Alistair Baldwin
Had some great chats on this podcast about even the alternate utility of a mic stand as being a way to get the exact right angle and of an intimacy aid.

Mia Wallace
Absolutely. And there's some things where, you know, we'll ask each other, is this OK? Is this comfortable? Is this not? And Troy knows, he knows that I'll try anything. Nothing's off the table. We've made it work.

Alistair Baldwin
Yeah, that's right. But communication is a real cornerstone.

Mia Wallace
That is the first and foremost.

Alistair Baldwin
You mentioned, you know, abled people having lot of presumptions or curiosities and, you know, almost, yeah, a little too intense curiosity around these questions of like, can you have sex? How do you have sex? Is there any, you know, myth busting that you'd love to do on your own terms about, you know, these questions or what that looks like?

Mia Wallace
I think people assume because when they look at you, especially with myself being short-statured, being little, they think, well, you can't have sex or Troy will break you. And never assume is what I say. because, you know, it doesn't matter what size, what height, disabled, non-disabled, you can have sex. That's it. So you just got to make it work. and yes, I can have sex, yes he can have sex, and we just make it work. So we figure out a way at the time that works best for us, whether it's me laying down or him sitting up or vice versa. We've just got to work it out at the time, know, whatever is comfortable at

Troy Wallace
Whatever way it goes. Yeah, whatever way it goes.

Alistair Baldwin
Absolutely. And do you feel like you're, I guess, doing some forward planning? Are you doing the classic, I mean, my entire sex life is trial and error, so.

Mia Wallace
Yeah, it has been. To begin with, was trial and error. Because again, being little. What can we do? What can we do? Troy at the time was like, okay, I don't want to break you. You won't break me. And if you do, don't worry about it. We'll just move on. So, you know, just add the number to that fractal list. Don't worry about it. So, you know, as long as we're having a good time. Yeah, exactly. That's it. That's how I look at it.

Alistair Baldwin
Yeah, and often sex is worth it. I mean, I've dislocated my shoulder in the bedroom and I'm like, on the balance, I'm glad we did this.

Mia Wallace
There you go. There you go. So I just think, hey, you know, you got to have a good time and you got to work. Do what's best for you.

Alistair Baldwin
Absolutely. And are there any sort of particular handy tools or I guess support systems in the bedroom which you could really recommend or that you utilise, you know?

Mia Wallace
Look, I'll be honest and say we've watched movies. Yes, we've watched videos. that's helped, you know, especially with Troy on his side of things. And I've still bought my toys that I enjoy. So it doesn't, you know, doesn't worry us. We just got to do it that, you know, whatever makes us happy, if that means watching movies, then so be it.

Alistair Baldwin
Well, thank you both so much for talking so candidly about your relationship.

Mia Wallace
Thank you for having us. It's been fantastic.

Troy Wallace
Thank you for having us

Madeleine Stewart
Thank you so much for coming on the show today, thank you

Mia Wallace
Thank you for having us

Tess Deveze
Our second guest is Tess Deveze, who's an occupational therapist and somatic sexologist and founder of Connectable Therapies, a consulting service focusing on sexuality, intimacy, arousal, explorative intimacy, communication and partner dynamics. Welcome to the show, Tess.

Tess Deveze
Thank you for having me. Very great to be here.

Alistair Baldwin
Thanks for coming on.

Madeleine Stewart
Can you tell us a little bit more about the work you do at Connectable Therapies and what drew you to focus on sexuality and intimacy for people with disability?

Tess Deveze
Very big questions. Yeah, I say I'm an intimacy OT. It makes people like a lot calmer. It's really bizarre. But yeah, so I might help people access intimacy aids and we'll look at like hand function and fine motor abilities or positioning and yeah, it's a really big range. I think just because sex is so big and broader topic and bodies. Oh my God. Yeah. Bodies are so different. Yeah.

Alistair Baldwin
And everyone wants something different, know, abled or disabled. So you were saying that you were kind of noticing and feeling, I guess, a need or an audience for something that's lacking. Would you say, I guess, in this country there is a lack of focus or priority given to people's sexual desires and needs when they're dealing with things like cancer or disability?

Tess Deveze
Australia is very conservative.

Alistair Baldwin
That has come up a bit on this podcast.

Tess Deveze
Oh, what a shock. It is a very conservative country, but it is less conservative than others. I think we're kind of like in a happy medium where I think things might be shifting a bit because I think there was one or two people about five years ago who did what I do. And now there's actually quite a few people working in the disability sector, addressing sexuality and pleasure and relationships. It's not just sex. So I think there is definitely a gap. I want to be out of a job because everyone else is doing theirs.

Alistair Baldwin
So in your work, do you find that you're obviously working a lot directly with clients who are experiencing symptoms or accessibility needs, but does your work ever mean that you're encountering medical professionals, support workers, family, and what are some of the kind of things that you might talk about with them to, I guess, help support your clients?

Tess Deveze
Yeah, I do a lot of work with the team. I've even done work with other OTs with the same client because an OT might be addressing like functional access and things like that and then I'll come in and do the sexuality work and then we all work together and you know, we find ways that maybe the like speech aids for the client can be used for dating. And we might like write out dating samples and like, would you like a kiss? I'd like to touch you. How do you feel about this date? You know, like really beautiful ways to communicate with people. I have actually had, I'm going to go straight in, assisted masturbation conversations with support workers and the team, because people, think they get the wrong idea. And I just said assisted masturbation and I said it out loud and I'm like, Oh it does sound like it's asking a worker to perform masturbation on someone, but its not that at all. So what it is, I say assisted pleasure, because it sounds a little less scary, but it's a set up and pack up kind of situation. I've worked with support workers who we've found the right intimacy aid, and that's where I came in. And I've helped the client be able to use it. So I'm thinking of one particular client, we used Bluetooth technology, and it was set up in his wheelchair headset so he could control his sex toy with his wheelchair. I'm like waving my head around like I'm pushing buttons with my head, it was incredible. Bluetooth is amazing. Absolutely.

Alistair Baldwin
I'd love that technology too.

Madeleine Stewart
So how do you support couples where one partner might also have a caring role? What are some of the challenges that come up with this and like how do you help them navigate this balance between caregiving and also intimacy?

Tess Deveze
Yeah, that's a really good question. It's really difficult for people. I call it non-intentional touch, you know, the clinical, I'm just getting this thing done type of touch. And some people that I've worked with, that's the only touch they've ever experienced was medical. And I know how that feels being a person who's in the medical system a lot. And then when we work with their partner who's also the carer, there's this switch of roles, you know, so you go from lover to patient and from lover to carer and it's a real switch in independence and it's really vulnerable. Yeah. And so I think like I do work with clients, everything just goes back to communication. Like really, I help people be able to have conversations about how they're feeling.

And that can be one of the biggest steps for them because when you can communicate about how you're doing, then we can see what the issues actually are. Because a lot of the time it's, we're having problems, we're not having sex or the sex isn't the same as it used to be. Fix it. Like, all right, what does even sex mean to you for a start? And it could be different and different could be better, you know, with a changing body. A really important thing for people to know is it's okay to plan. Like you can still be sexy and intimate even if you have to organise it a little bit. Remembering that this is a person that you love and that you find attractive and helping them remember that. Because you're in the go, go, go, go, go, caring, I've got to go to work, I've got to take care of this thing, I'm going to bathe you. So every now and then I'll say to someone, I want you to pick a day of the week, and I want you to bathe your partner like it's an ancient Roman spa and you are going to wipe their arm so slowly and you are gonna kiss their neck and you're gonna wash their hair like it was pure sunshine and I just want you to do this one thing that's very intentional and slow and affectionate and like very, very, it's a really vulnerable thing. A lot of people come back and they're like crying. It's like, it was so beautiful. I'm like, okay, that's intentional touch versus the clinical touch. And so I really want, I really try to help people kind of tap into this, this really gentle, soft, slow exploration, but you have to plan it. That's the problem. You've got your medical appointments, you've got your pain medications, you've got like the, the carer might have to go to work as well or try and get ready for other carers you're going to take over during the day.

Alistair Baldwin
All of that highly medicalised stuff is scheduled, you need to kind of match that in a way.

Tess Deveze
Yeah, and people say, it's just, it's not like how it was before. And I kind of think to myself, and I said to a few clients if they're up for the challenge and I say, do you remember when you were dating and it was that honeymoon period, they call it, new relationship energy. was like, you are organising when you were going to see each other. Yeah. And you were figuring out what you were going to do. Absolutely. So kind of the same. You're choosing a night.

Alistair Baldwin
Where are we meeting, are we getting dinner before the movie.

Tess Deveze
Yeah, you can even like leave the home separately and meet at the location. So it's like a date again. It's like a little bit of role play. Never hurt anyone. Yeah. think, I think one of the hardest things is, the loss of these, the day-to-day subtle affectionate little touches and kisses and butt squeezes and comments of words of love because you stressed. And I think, you know, carer burden is, is real. I wish anyone listening who is a carer, please get support if you're struggling. It's really normal to need support. And also for the people who are being cared for, I have patient burden. I feel awful because my primary partner and carer is changing their life to suit being able to care for me. And I like the guilt and the shame and the burden syndrome that I have from that. So we talk regularly and they're getting support, I'm getting support, we're all getting support. But it's really, it's tough and yes, personal experience, it threw me when I went from being the clinician and being the support person to then being the person needing support.

Alistair Baldwin
How was that experience of shifting to also experiencing that like lived authentic experience? there, did that expand your practice helping others or how did it shift the work that you did now that you're almost on the other side of it as well?

Tess Deveze
Yeah, I hate it. I'm not kidding. It's been horrible. But yeah, it's coming out the other end. It's like, oh my goodness, what a learning experience. I think it's, yeah, you really see who you are, your psychology. Like I've just seen so much of my inability to accept help and ask for it and my refusal to...to take up space and I'm really sick. So it's kind of a thing that I have to, I don't have a choice in, you I have to get used to it.

Alistair Baldwin
Well, what are some of the tools that you would suggest for disabled people to, I guess, explore their sexuality and to make these kinds of big, exciting choices which can reinvigorate, you know, the life that they're living?

Tess Deveze
Even if people have a partner, I recommend individual pleasure exploration, like solo. And if you are feeling particularly brave, maybe doing that in front of your partner, but that's a very, very few people who have that level of confidence in their body. So it's quite a step away. But I usually say when you wake up in the morning, because that's when your kind of at your squishiest, know, you're warm and...and your body's nice and relaxed and you know, for people that might have high muscle tone, it can be a moment where they're like a little more lax. And that's when I say, I just want you to touch your body. I just want you to very, very like slowly, if able, with a finger, just on various parts of your body and I want you to notice anything, including if you don't feel anything, that's something, you're noticing something.

And then with some clients that's turned into pleasure rehabilitation where I've helped people recover orgasm or like, and it all just starts with fingertip touch on the body. And with those moments, I want to try and keep a track of what becomes, yeah, I can feel that. What starts to become, oh that feels nice. And then we're gonna jump into those spots, keep track of them. And then we're gonna look at ways that you can explore those areas of your body with different forms of touch.

And that's when maybe intimacy aids might come in, such as vibration or perhaps like scratchy. It just depends on the person, a disability so broad. Yeah, so I had a client and she was pregnant and she had a stroke and the baby was born. It's healthy, healthy, beautiful baby. And she and her partner were really struggling. So I went straight into connecting with each other, because raising the newborn baby while managing her stroke, it was so much. And I was like, I'm not gonna add more. I wanted them to become a bit of a unit. And to like find ways they could work together. So it started with them telling me things that they enjoyed and me figuring out how they could go on dates and have the time without stress to remember like, yeah, we really love holding hands and going to dinner. Like, my God, this is so amazing.

So then they might have those moments where they can work together a little easier. And then of course, after we got some time where they reconnected like emotionally, then I integrated physical connection and that was, right, we're gonna figure out how you can lie in bed long-term, maybe on your side and spoon. And then it became naked spooning, because like oxytocin and skin on skin and you know, it's delicious. and then we were trying different positions and then we're talking about intimacy, around how her body could move and how she could stay in positions that wasn't really, cause she had some hemiparesis like paralysis on one side. So was like, we need to stay off, support this with cushions. But I was like, no, no, you can, you can totally have oral this way. was like, yeah, yeah. Like the partner just, I'm like, put a cushion, but get down on your knees. Like it's fine. We can do this.

You know, like little hacks, like the corner of the room is like a wall stabilising you. So if you're standing up and you have very good balance, you can stand in the corner of the room and the person can like chair in front of them. And so many little hacks.

Alistair Baldwin
I've often made use of a stabilising wall. It's very handy. I am curious to ask whether you've had any experiences working with couples where both partners have access needs or differing ranges of abilities, energy levels, essentially what are the ways that you've found tools to help people with potentially conflicting access needs or symptoms find that middle ground, that path through to intimacy with each other.

Tess Deveze
Yeah, I do quite a bit of work. Again, very different forms of disability. It's so, so broad, but I, there was a young couple with intellectual disability and autism, but they wanted to have a sleepover for the first time. Right. Yeah. And so they rang me to talk about firstly, how they could safely have a sleepover, but how to negotiate that with the staff.. So a lot of the work I do around people accessing intimacy together is it unfortunately involves me talking to a whole team of people.

Alistair Baldwin
Right, and advocating for that aspect of their lives to be given space and time.

Tess Deveze
Yeah. For this particular young couple, I sat down and I did sex education with them. We practiced with internal and external condoms. The big one was when we practiced boundary setting and they were playing a game of making offers to each other and they had to say no thank you. So they were understanding how to accept a no. And everyone freaked out when she said no to him.

But he did the game. was like, thank you, but no thank you. And that was it. And that's so different from another time I've worked with two wheelchair users. And so there was a lot of communication around hoists is how can we call for help if you need help, say, moving or not. So whereas the emergency button, I developed a thing where I put a bell next to the bed so it could be knocked by someone's elbow who had shoulder function. And then I did a lot of positioning work. So we'd get them in the bed and I would say, imagine, I would never say what do want to do to each other? Because that's a very confronting conversation for people that aren't used to talking about sex. So I was like, how about we imagine that one of you might like to have kind of a...a humping each other, grinding type of pleasure experience. Like with your clothes on and we would see what positions we could put them in and what worked. And a lot of the time as well, I might say to, do you have a physiotherapist? Maybe you could work on the bridge position, you know, when you arch your back and your pelvis goes. So it, I hate the word hump. Grind, there we go, grind is better. But it's that, you know, that pelvic tilt that you do. Yeah, the grinding.

So I say, think we can develop your lower back strength a bit more, and this might help with accessing a bit more pleasure. I'm going to chat with the physio, can we work on grinding? Like the bridge position, because physiotherapists are so hands on that this is a really difficult thing for them to work on with clients. So for me to say close on bridge position, that's very, very doable for a physio.

Alistair Badlwin
And that's a language which is medical and isn't so revealing, but is functionally very helpful.

Tess Deveze
Exactly. Yeah. It kind of takes the fear out of people's eyes. When you say, no, close on, it's all going to be like, you know, medical, just bridge. That's it. Like, okay. I do this all the time. Like, yeah, you do.

Alistair Baldwin
Sounds like your work is very important in creating that shift for a lot of people and bringing intimacy back to lot of couples. So it's been wonderful having you on the show today. Thanks for coming.

Tess Deveze
Thank you so much.

Madeleine Stewart
Thank you so much for coming on the show today. Thank you.

Tess Deveze
Yay.

Madeleine Stewart
What an incredible episode we've had.

Alistair Baldwin
It was good today.

Madeleine Stewart
Yeah, my highlight was hearing all about Mia and Troy's love story and how they like balance out each other's access needs and is like clearly a very loving romantic story.

Alistair Baldwin
I'm buying the rights to adapt their life story. Hold on. I'm going to turn it into a rom-com. And what I really loved was hearing Tess speak so openly and vulnerably about those complicated feelings that you can get when you're receiving care from someone you love and supporting others through their own relationships with disability.

Madeleine Stewart
Well, I had a really lovely chat today. It's been a wonderful episode.

Alistair Baldwin
I know it was so good. This has been Love Without Limits. Thanks for listening.

Madeleine Stewart
This has been Love Without Limits hosted by us, Madeleine Stewart and Alistair Baldwin.

Alistair Baldwin
and produced by Eliza Hull in partnership with SBS and Attitude Foundation. SBS team is Joel Supple and Max Gosford, recorded at Session in Progress.