Why is Sex and Disability Still So Taboo?

Alistair Baldwin

This episode is recorded on the land of the Wurundjeri, Woi wurrung people of the Kulin nation, and would like to give our respect to their elders, past and present.


Love without limits is a podcast about intimacy and yes, sex. Just a heads up, we'll be talking openly about topics that might not be for everyone.

Madeleine Stewart and Alistair Baldwin
I'm Madeleine Stewart, and I'm Alistair Baldwin, and you're listening to love without limits, a podcast that shines a light on real life stories from disabled people diving into the often taboo and stigmatised subject of intimacy and sex.

Madeleine Stewart
In each episode, you'll hear from a guest as they share their unique experiences navigating the world of love, connection and sex, while also exploring barriers and triumphs of intimacy. As disabled people. For our first episode, our topic is why sex and disability is still taboo. So off the bat, quick check Alistair, have you had sex?

Alistair Baldwin
Oh, my God, I'm shy.

Alistair Baldwin
Ran through to be quite honest. That's why they booked me this gig, sexpert vibes. I mean, the thing is, even though I have sex, disabled people are really used to having our sexual identities overlooked and undermined. I think just because we make that able to uncomfortable, yeah,

Madeleine Stewart
sometimes, like, too comfortable, like taboo is hot, and some able people lean far too much, like, the other way into fetishizing our disability, you know, and and who are we to deny the raw sexual appeal of our disabilities? You know what I mean?

Alistair Baldwin
I mean, as someone with leg braces, I've been followed on Instagram by a bunch of like burner accounts for like bondage fetishists, because they really love the straps of my braces.

Madeleine Stewart
And I've had a message on social media from someone who once said, my arm looks so phallic they wondered how far they could get it up their peach emoji.

Alistair Baldwin
Well, I'm excited to get into the conversation, and our first guest is Leisa Prowd. Leisa is a dancer, performance artist and life model based in Melbourne. Her main interests lie in exploring body normality, air quotes and her own body's uniqueness in relation to space and other bodies. So welcome to the show. Lisa, hi. Lisa, Hi, there.

Alistair Baldwin
Thank you coming on the show? You're welcome.

Madeleine Stewart
We have something in common. Leisa, you and I are both life models. Awesome. I don't know how your experience has been, but once I was a life model, and the people they overheard them drawing me as I was sitting there trying not to scratch my nose. Am I right. You're very right. So I heard these people drawing, and they said, oh god, she's just got such an unusual face. Someone piped up behind me and said, I have to sit behind her. I just can't draw it. Have you, how is your experience?

Leisa Prowd
No, oh no. Mine was completely different. Like, you know how you go around and look at all the picture, all the things that people have drawn. Yeah, it's really interesting, because when I look at them, I can see that they've struggled with the fact that my limbs are a lot shorter than they expect. And so they go. They make my limbs actually a little bit, quite a bit longer than, than, than they actually are. And I go, you're really struggling to get that musculature in there, in such a confined space, aren't you?

Madeleine Stewart
Yeah, it's really interesting. It's so interesting, isn't it? Alistair, I recommend you. You do it. You should. I'll have to give it a go.

Alistair Baldwin
If anyone wants me slide into my DMs, I'll model for anyone.

Madeleine Stewart
I was wondering, when was the first time you saw your body and was like, I'm different to everyone around me?

Leisa Prowd
Goodness. Now that is a good question, because I don't really know the full answer to that. I always knew that I was little and small and a lot littler than other children my age, but that didn't mean much to me, and I don't, I really don't think it was until I got to preadolescence and adolescence that the full impact of that hit me, like it wasn't just I'm little. This is a thing. This has a name. This has this is a diagnosis. And I go, Oh, the pennies started to drop around. You know puberty? Well, early puberty, even quite before that, like I think I even knew about dwarfism and and I kind of knew that I had that. But. Full impact of that didn't really hit until later on.

Madeleine Stewart
Yeah, I guess because you have, like, more social things going on when you get to high school as well.

Leisa Prowd
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, my brothers and sisters were all average statured kids. My mum and dad were average statured. So that was the environment I grew up in, and so I was just one of the kids kind of thing until later on, and then people start partnering and becoming interested in boys or girls or whoever. And I'm kind of left alone and left out of that.

Alistair Baldwin
Well that’s such an interesting perspective on sort of noticing the differences and when you're sort of aware of your body compared to other people, and I'm curious, how has that affected you, sort of dating, finding love, and….

Leisa Prowd
it had a really big impact. And mainly, I think because of the attitudes of significant people in my life around me. I even heard it said, Oh, if, if normal, in inverted commas, sized boy showed an interest in Leisa, I would be afraid of what he was after. And so I was very kept myself very separate. I thought, Well, nobody's really going to be interested in me, even though I was interested in and so many boys and, you know, I got crushes and and everything like that. But so I thought that the only people who were going to be suitable for me would be somebody of my own stature or somebody with dwarfism. And even when later on in high school, at the end of high school, one of the boys in my class, you know, showed a real interest in getting to know me. Wanted to take me out to the movies. We did go out to the movies, and wanted to get to know me more, but I held him very much at arm's length, because it was instilled in me that I could not trust this. And I often think about that, and I think, you know, what would have happened if, if I had have just let my guard down and went out? You know, I still


Madeleine Stewart
feel like that today, though, when I'm dating, I often think like, What are you after? Sometimes it's still, it's still in my head, because I was raised very similarly, and that's still, it's still in there. And I think at one point you need to go, okay, just, just let it go and give it a go, you know, yeah, well,

Alistair Baldwin
it's very interesting. I think across the board, disabled people deal with a lot of infantilisation, and so that does come out in these, you know, abled people around us having this protective instinct, which they drill into you of, you know, like, I'm very physically weak, and so it's very much like that kind of trust. There's something so intimate with trusting your body with another person. And so people are putting, you know, so much fear into sexuality, which actually can be more harmful than it is helpful,

Leisa Prowd
Exactly.

Madeleine Stewart
But you brought up a good point about, like, infantilisation. Like, why do you think that so many people with disability are infantilised like that?

Leisa Prowd
That is, that is beyond me. I cannot understand and particularly, okay, I'll answer that from my own perspective. I am the height of the average Australian six year old child. When children get to the age of seven that they are taller than me and and so I guess people look at me, or can look at me and find it very difficult to understand that I am a grown woman with with desires and needs and and wants, and that just doesn't compute in their brain that you know this is this person is the size of a six year old. So physical desire wasn't something that people thought that I would have. And in fact, when I showed an interest in somebody, it was seen as a joke. So, yeah, it is almost like we're not even on that spectrum. It's like we're othered, and I can never quite understand that.

Madeleine Stewart
So how do you think people of short stature have been represented sexually in TV and film? Like I don't think I. Seen anyone have any sex scenes? Have you?

Leisa Prowd
Not as such? It is implied sometimes. And I think Game of Thrones, we have Tyrion Lannister, played by the wonderful Peter Dinkley. Very attractive, very attractive man, and I have met him and interviewed him. Very nice man. And I think in one of his first scenes, it is implied, well, he is in a brothel, and it is implied that he is having a blow job while he's standing there. We do not see it. We just see his face. And that has actually been the first time I have seen anybody with short stature have that portrayed on the screen. It's not seen, but we know what's going on, but I think it is still very tasteful for TV, whereas the other actors in that series, like you saw full frontal nudity, yeah, and that may have been Peter Dinklage’s choice, that he didn't want to have that, and such is his right, but we saw average statured people going for it, but you never saw him, and that may be, may have been his choice, but maybe the world wasn't ready for that. Yeah, I don't know, but I applauded that his character was actually seen as a highly sexual individual prior to him being in Game of Thrones. We have never been portrayed as sexual beings at all. We've either been fantasy beings or somebody to be pitied, somebody who has a hard life, a sad life, or inspirational. And I would love to see more of us being real. And I think in Australia, we were very behind, in a way like I we got the wonderful Kiruna Stamell being on Play School. And, you know, when, when I heard of that, it was like, yeah, yeah, we've arrived. But I've always said that I would love to see short statured actors being on on one of our soaps, and just be, you know, an extra or and then maybe be somebody who comes in and out. Sometimes somebody will do a throwaway line to them, even a romantic and then, you know, let's do a romantic lead. Let's have them fall in love with somebody. And, yeah, maybe, okay, maybe we do touch on the on the discomfort thing of people not really accepting it, but then have a group of people going, yay, wow. Our friend is in a relationship with somebody. Let's celebrate that, which is what it's like in real life.

Madeleine Stewart
Yeah, that's what we want to see on television.

Leisa Prowd
We need to say on television, because that's what our life is. It is just us paying our bills, going to work, having a partner, having sex. Yes, we have sex. Yeah, it's real. What is? What is so funny about that?

Madeleine Stewart
I don't understand it either. I think that's a genius idea. Someone needs to get onto those soaps and get the get it happening,

Alistair Baldwin
Exactly, and real complexity, and disabled love triangles and disabled secret half sibling puts a bomb on a speed boat. All of the soap folks just give it a little disabled twist. But yeah, I mean, I feel like most of the time when disabled people are represented, it's abled people kind of are like doing it with like they're fulfilling a make a wish a little bit. And yeah, yeah, they're so I think they're almost trying to be too respectful and to sort of, you know, wrapping us in cotton wool that they're not giving us, like interesting things to do. You know, they're panning away from the brothel blow job, or it's just right after or whatever, and it's like, it's HBO. They're showing incest on white lotus. Show us Peter Dinklage being hot!

Leisa Prowd
Exactly, but, but at the same time, there's also the the flip side of that is that somebody like me can be seen as a sexual fetish, like the number of times that somebody has driven or a group of men have driven past me yelling out walking blow job.

Madeleine Stewart
Oh no, that's awful

Leisa Prowd
That's what happens. And so, I'm seen as a fetish. And okay, well, you know, I wouldn't touch you guys with a 10 foot pole. Yeah. Anyway, you know you're just No, you're not my type. You're not even giving me a compliment. You wish. But there's also that, that fetish curiosity, what's it like to be with a short statured person, a person with dwarfism, and then they go and brag to their mates, to their friends, and when in reality, it's just the same it's just the limbs are shorter. Yeah, you know, yeah. And I did actually approach that in my solo show a couple of years ago, that that calling out from the street, walking blow job, and I had a whole set of mannequins, and one of them was a male mannequin. And I just while all these projection word projections are coming up, when walking blow job came up, I undid the the fly, the zip, pulled his pants down, and just, oh, did that. I didn't actually lick it or anything

Alistair Baldwin
No you didn’t know where that mannequin had been

Leisa Prowd
And he didn't have protection either.
But it's like, okay, you call me this. Well, then this is what this looks like. This is just, you know, and, yeah, I want you to sit in that and be uncomfortable in that, because that's, that's what you've reduced me to.

Alistair Baldwin
Well, so much of that energy from abled people sort of making fun of disabled people and their relationship to sex, it's like putting all the discomfort on the disabled person. And it's like, sometimes the most radical thing is just to take ownership of it and be like, well, maybe, how about you be uncomfortable for a little bit. Yeah, not everything's for you

Leisa Prowd
Exactly. And you know, I really feel for my community of fellow short statured people and and this is just my point of view. I'm not pretending to speak for the rest of them, but I really feel that there has been a lot of pressure put on us, and that we've put on ourselves, not to draw too much attention to ourselves, and to act, you know, like very proper and conservative. And so when somebody like me comes along who kind of pushes those boundaries, it can be very uncomfortable for the others in the group. Looking back on my body of work and work that I've done for other people, there's nothing I've done that I'm ashamed of at all that I've everything I've done I've been extremely proud of, because when I was growing up, I saw nobody like me doing what I do. I saw no short statured dancer who was um successful, and so at the age of 40, I became that for the for the young Leisa, and for anybody else and and I hope that maybe by people seeing my work, and it is very much about the body and my acceptance of my body and how it is. And I really hope that somehow it can change things, even just a little.

Madeleine Stewart
Thank you.

Alistair Baldwin
Thanks for coming onto the show and opening up about this work. And I think I speak for the listeners at home. I'm sure they will be very inspired,

Madeleine Stewart
But not in a yucky way, good way,

Alistair Baldwin
Correct, egalitarian inspiration. When disabled people inspire other disabled people, I'm like, that’s fine, It's not gross, that's fine. That's great. That's yeah, I'm all for it, but no a Paralympian inspiring like a CEO to hit KPIs. It's like, that sucks.


Leisa Prowd
Yes.

Madeleine Stewart
But thank you so much, Leisa for coming on. We've just thoroughly enjoyed speaking to you and thank you.

Leisa Prowd
Thanks for having me.

Madeleine Stewart
We’re here with our second guest on Love Without Limits, Anita Brown- Major, who is an occupational therapist and has 25 years under your belt researching sexuality, disability, all of that. And you also have a great company called Clitorate, which, and you bought all these fun models with you. And I'm so excited.

Anita Brown - Major
I have a great job

Madeleine Stewart
I’m loving it, please tell us all about these

Alistair Baldwin
Yeah, please tell us. I'm keen to get literate about clitorises, clitoris. So can you talk us through some of these exciting anatomical models and what they represent?

Anita Brown - Major
The clitoris was only mapped in actually, by an Australian neurologist, Helen O'Connell. In 1998 what we were needing different models to actually show look at pleasure and fun, and the clitoris is actually a really major part of fun and pleasure. And there was no models that show that in the world, it's like we do all these other things, but there's no models. So we've created a model vulva, which is sort of like a click and collect Mr. Potato Head, so it sits on the doctor's desk or in the high schools, and you pull it apart and you see the inner workings of an engorged clitoris. So this is the tip so, or the glands, and that's what a clitoris looks like. So they're all pretty. It's quite pretty. They're all we all start with the same bits, and they're just formed in different ways. So this is the internal workings, and it wraps around the urethra and the vagina. So no such thing as a G spot. It's actually just the clitoris is wrapping around the g spot was named after a man.

Alistair Baldwin
Yeah right, Andrew G

Anita Brown-Major
So again, and like, there is, like, over 50,000 articles, medical articles on the penis, and there's only 2000 on the clitoris. So there's we're learning more the clitoris is got more nerve endings. They've actually just mapped the nerve endings to be like over 10,000 so it's amazing. But basically what we do is that's an engorged clitoris, and this is a non engorged clitoris, so that wraps around the urethra vagina. Blood flows in around and makes it and it's about 20 to 30 minutes between this, and this is what I talk about. And then we do a lot of education with people using kinesthetic models. So I originally started this because I was working with someone who was visually impaired and their partner had cerebral palsy, and it's, how do you do sex ed appropriately with and you don't have a model? So that's why we started. And then we realised that no one else actually knows this information.

Alistair Baldwin
Yeah, well, I have to say, you know, I was in a high school sex ed in a mainstream high school with a bunch of abled classmates, and we were not covering the clitoris in this much detail. And I sounds like a classic curb cut effect where everyone benefits for building stuff that's accessible and easy access, and these everyone learns a little better with the tactile model, I think

Madeleine Stewart
Do you know I'm jealous that you even had that at my high school? I went to a Christian school, and they didn't do a lot of sex ed, except don't do it. And when they had the video on it, it showed a bee going into one lily flower, collecting the pollen and taking it to the other Lily. I've since been so scared of bees because of pregnancy. You know what I mean like, and that’s all I got

Anita Brown-Major
we know that knowledge is power. So I really so we work at Thrive rehab, and so we work with people of all ages and all abilities. But I particularly are keen for therapists and doctors and everyone who working with kids to educate with actual names and information, because that actually is safety. It's actually more safe to know anatomical names and what's going on in bodies than it is not to

Alistair Baldwin
Do you feel like you've faced a lot of stigma providing this education to disabled people?

Anita Brown- Major
Look, I think there's stigma full stop around sexuality. There's stigma about disability, you intersect the two, and it's just like there's so many, so many barriers, like there's social media barriers of all the work that we do. So yeah, stigma is it's pretty much what I live with every day, with our work and a lot of the you know, but we try and always sneak in pleasure. So, we often get referrals for inappropriate, inappropriate sexual behaviors. Is sort of often what our referrals are, and we always sneak in pleasure. But I think that's the stigma sits with, you're either asexual, so you're not interested in sex at all, and often people are told that, and it almost becomes it, or your over sexed. So, you get this real in a disability context, is like they're going to be predators, or what's going on. So, trying to come into the middle terms of actually you're a human being. We're seeing you as human. How you want to enact your sexuality is up to you.

Alistair Baldwin
I mean, I It's so true, especially growing up disabled, you know, someone with muscular dystrophy. I can't remember when I would start, you know, going into my neurologist office, and they'd be stripping down to examine my body and stuff like that. But it's very much, I think we're used to the medicalisation and that kind of medicalised touch and and unless disabled people are given the information about sexual touch as well, where you don't have the information to distinguish those two, and that is where, you know, abuses of power can take and Information is power.

Anita Brown- Major
Yeah, and we teach compliance. So this is what happens in the medical world. You teach compliance. Just do this, do that, rather than telling people you know No. And how do you how do you encourage that? So we do a lot of work with families to actually say it's okay for someone not to be compliant. We want them not to be compliant. That is powerful in its own sense. And then how to look at pleasure like, what does that look like for you? So we do lots of work around sensory input. So OT’S do lots of great stuff around sensory assessments. But you know what? What works for you as a body? You know, do you prefer firm touch or light touch, or do you prefer the lights on or lights off? Or when you visually said, having that a way to communicate with partners as well? This is what works for my body. So we teach, we do a lot of work on masturbation and self-pleasure, and then you can communicate that with a partner. So yeah, it's a pretty fun job

Madeleine Stewart
Can I sign up my ex partners? I think they need some education!

Anita Brown-Major
I have three teenagers, and I think, yeah, they've now. The oldest one is now starting to go to parties with glow in the dark clitorises and doing an education. I think they sort of think they're on sex education. I think a little bit. I'm not charging rent, so we're okay.

Alistair Baldwin
Speaking of these glow in the dark clitoris models, such an fantastic thing. I mean, is this something you do a lot with clitorate is adapting models that are specific for different people and a bit easier to see for if someone has a vision impairment or

Anita Brown – Major
So I'm part of the international clitorati, which is like my funnest title ever, which is seriously good, and that's basically so Professor Helen O'Connell, but people from around the world that are focusing on the clitoris, so that we do lots of medical swapping of knowledge. But one of the knowledge was that when you MRI someone with clitoris that is engorged, it glows white because of the blood flow. So we just went, how do we translate medical information into accessible formats? And we went, Oh, let's do it glow in the dark clitoris. And we ended up, I think, selling more clitmess presents for your Christmas tree than anything else. So, you know, it's a hard it's basically the clitoris model is a bit of a labor of love

Madeleine Stewart
I mean, I knew nothing about penises and vaginas until I saw your model. I've been reminded I've got to touch a little, oh yes, I remember this. Mostly it's in the dark. So I'm like… I remember this feeling

Alistair Baldwin
it's incredible as well to see the internal structure of the clitoris as well, because I think there's an understanding of the G spot, or, like, I guess the one section, which is sort of…

Anita Brown- Major
And I think it's really like, the research is pretty clear. Only 30% of vulva owners will orgasm with penis, vagina, sex or penetration of any sort, and that's just the way your bodies are made up. And that knowledge, like we are taught by the media on how sexual scripts run, rather than by how to actually people experience this themselves. So there's like a great website, OMG, yes, which is from the US, which is people with vulvas, teaching other people with vulvas how orgasms happen. But we use or that sexual response system. So when someone is able to orgasm, their muscles relax. So lots of folk that I work with with cerebral palsy or maybe with increased tone in their legs. May not be able to have partnered sex because they actually can't spread their legs, but if they orgasm first, and you're a vulva owner, you can have multiple orgasms. Not everyone does, but the muscles relax, you can spread your legs, and then you can gage in partnered sex. And that really translates well to like post menopausal folk, you know that actually sometimes you have a drier vagina. Again, if you pleasure yourself first and you get this engorged clitoris, which has the osmolarity of the lubricant coming in because of it wrapping around urethra, then you can, you know, have an orgasm and then engage in partnered sex. So it's not always about what medication can you take or what can you do. It's actually about the stimulation of mind.

Alistair Baldwin
Well, speaking of the ways that OT’S find adaptations as well, we're here in the podcast studio, three mics on three mic stamps, and I've heard a rumor that you've found an exciting secondary use for a microphone stand?

Anita Brown – Major
Yes, and look, I definitely can't take credit for this. We have amazing people that we work with, and often we're just the vehicle of hearing how people are adapting things themselves. But yeah, we have worked with someone who their support worker and themselves, they're in a wheelchair. So we're trying to work out how to look at masturbation when it's not in the bed. And how do you when you've got a very fitted wheelchair, how do you access your vulva? And these very creative people basically had used a microphone stand and had taken it off and put a dildo in, which was a remote control one, and then they could actually drive their wheelchair up, reposition in a reclined concept, because hands are hard to hold, like if you're thinking about if you're using vibrations on vulvas, you need a lot of dexterity. So a lot of the adaptive sort of work we do is about what's the disability, or where do you what's hard for you to do, and how do we get you to do the things that you want or need or have to do? So and I had nothing to do with it. This client had just gone. This is what I use. I'm like, Oh my God, that's gold. And I did get their permission. I said, Do I have consent to share this? Because this is something that needs to be shared.

Alistair Baldwin
This is a life hack for the ages? I mean, we're both stand up comedians, and I think it will change any future stand up performance

Alistair Baldwin
adjusting the mic stand, as it were

Anita Brown- Major
The mic stand, yeah, look, yeah, my main toolbox is talk to your partner like this is how what do you do? And a lot of it is a connection. So I worked with one person who had a brain tumor for five years, and when I worked in hospitals, I just asked about sex, and they just looked at me and went, Oh, you're the you're the first person to ask me that in this whole period of time. And because medical professionals don't talk about this, and my treatment was literally giving her words to talk to her partner, she said, I've never talked about sex in my life. And I think people who grow up and open, that's great. But in general, this person had never talked about sex. They just had sex and then she got sick and they went apart.

Alistair Baldwin
It sounds like you're facing a lot of barriers trying to give this information to disabled people. Where do you think those barriers are coming from? Are you seeing you know, from families who maybe are not ready to accept that their child is an adult. Or where is that stigmatisation coming from in society?

Anita Brown- Major
It is a 360 stigmatisation. It is people you can't be you know, you need to see. So we need it more in the media. We need people who are disabled actually shown in TV shows and movie shows of having romantic relationships. So from that sort of overall concept is really important. Families are scared. So if anyone's with developmental disabilities, it's often around protective Yes, and it's so much easier just to go, la, la. I'm not seeing it. I'm not seeing it. So stigmatisation is pretty much across the board. We still, we just don't see people with disabilities. They're infantilised. A lot of people are infantilised. And actually it's often better, like, as you said, it's actually better sex. Sometimes it's less stigmatised because you have to be creative, and therefore, I think your sexual script can be broader. So I certainly work with lots of folk and I'm like, oh my god, your sex life is so good because they've had to think creatively. So the joy is there, and following joy and following passion is really important. But I think the stigmatisation comes in because we just don't see it, and we don't see the joy. And if there are stories portrayed, it's often really portrayed in a negative light of this person is has preyed on other people, or this person has, you know, is not, you know, shouldn't be doing that, or they shouldn't be showing their body in that way. But, and that's what it's, you know, nothing about me, without me like it's, I feel privileged just to walk alongside folk and to be yelling like, be the ally to yell at the other medical professionals of actually, you need to ask these questions. But it's, it's people with disabilities are the leading, leading the way, really.

Alistair Baldwin
Best kind of allyship. I've heard.

Madeleine Stewart
We're very grateful.

Anita Brown- Major
Oh no, I'm very grateful. I've got it. You know, it's pretty nice to be in a job that you really love. Preach you love your job. Yeah, fabulous.

Madeleine Stewart
Well, thank you so much. I've learned so much. You've taught me more in this conversation than I've ever learned in high school. So thank you. Thank you for educating me finally.

Anita Brown Major
Pleasure.

Alistair Baldwin
what an incredible episode. I mean, I really loved hearing from Leisa. I mean, that story about the mannequin and reclaiming her body in public space iconic, truly

Madeleine Stewart
absolutely, yeah. And I really love talking to Anita. I learned so much about my body that I didn't learn at school, that's for sure. And my clitoris glows. Apparently, that's fun.

Alistair Baldwin
How fabulous. That's lovely. We learn something new every day, especially on this podcast.

Madeleine Stewart
you so much for both of our guests for opening. Up about their private business to us so that we can turn it into content. No, truly. Thank you so much to our guests.

Alistair Baldwin
And if you want to see the model of the vulva demonstrated for us here today in the studio, visit sbs.com.au forward slash love without limits, and follow the link to this episode.

Madeleine Stewart
This has been love without limits, hosted by us Madeline Stewart and Alistair Baldwin and

Alistair Baldwin
And produced by Eliza Hull, in partnership with SBS and attitude foundation. SBS team is Joel Supple and Max Gosford, recorded at Session in Progress.