Love, Sex and Chronic Illness

Alistair Baldwin
This episode is recorded on the land of the Wurundjeri, Woi wurrung people of the Kulin nation, and would like to give our respect to their elders, past and present. Love without limits is a podcast about intimacy and yes, sex. Just a heads up, we'll be talking openly about topics that might not be for everyone.

Alistair Baldwin
I'm Alistair Baldwin

Madeleine Stewart
and I'm Madeline Stewart, and you're listening to love without limits, the podcast where we throw shame out the window and talk openly about sex, love and intimacy in the lives of disabled people. In this episode of love without limits, we're shining a light on something that's often kept in the dark. What it means to navigate sex, desire and intimacy while living with a chronic illness, from fluctuating pain and fatigue to shifting body image and misunderstood needs, chronic illness can throw some of the serious curve balls into your sex life, but it can also open up some space for deeper communication, creativity and connection.

Alistair Baldwin
For anyone who isn't familiar with the spoon theory, it's this way of thinking about the limited energy that people with chronic illness have each day, and how we have to be really mindful about whether we're spending our spoons or our energy on working, on socialising, fitness or even on sex. I mean, I know that I only have so much in the tank each day, and nothing is harder than choosing between doing a day of work or getting laid.

Madeleine Stewart
I mean, I know which one I'm choosing of those two. I'm very interested in hearing from our guests about what a fluctuating disability means for their sex lives, and also some strategies, you know, some creative problem solving for handling good days and bad days.

Alistair Baldwin
Yeah, let's learn some of those insights, please. Our first guest is Carly Findlay, who's an Australian writer, speaker, arts worker and online influencer. Findlay describes herself as an appearance activist and has been outspoken on a number of disability related issues. Carly, thanks for coming on the show

Carly Findlay
Thanks for having me.

Madeleine Stewart
Carly, you've always been so open about your body image, Disability, visibility. How has having a facial difference shaped your experience of dating and sex, especially seeing as you have a non disabled partner?

Carly Findlay
Yeah, I just realised I didn't tell my husband that I'm talking about sex. That realisation came to me right now. When I was younger, I always wanted to have a boyfriend, and I think I was often chasing and there was no reciprocation there. So that was hard, like in primary school, high school, not primary school, but, you know, high school always had crushes, and they were always unreciprocated.

Alistair Baldwin
Relatable.

Carly Findlay
And then when the internet came along, it was a lot different. And I met a few boys. That was interesting, because I got to show who I was without my photo. I think nearly all of my experiences have been internet dating, although I had met some guys in a pub who I'd pashed and stuff. Yeah, I met someone when I first came to Melbourne, and he lived in The Secret Life of Us house.

Alistair Baldwin
That location? Yeah, so you would go over to the..

Carly Findlay
I've been over twice to his house, and we did kiss at the house. Yeah, it was very

Alistair Baldwin
You were basically in the show

Carly Findlay
I was basically Claudia Karvan yeah

Carly Findlay
These men just treated me quite terribly, like this guy, I remember he told me, because of my redness, he's like, you've only got to wear gray, like you don't want to draw any attention to your face. And I always think of that when I wear a lot of colours, I'm like, you know, fuck him.

Alistair Baldwin
Absolutely.

Carly Findlay
So yeah, there was a lot of me developing relationships with these guys online, and we'd get along really well. And then in person, they'd be like, Oh, I wasn't expecting you to be that red. Or I went. I had a date once. It was actually quite scary. He he was, like, gonna pick me up, I think he picked me up somewhere, and then he was gonna take me to his house. And it was really awkward, because I don't want to go to his house. And then I stalled it, and I went to Coles to get something or something, and then he left me there. I remember that. Oh yeah, that was a bit bit awkward. But, I mean, I'm glad it will go to his house, but yeah. I mean, there wasn't beyond that. I think, you know, there wasn't any real serious relationships, really. It was always me being much more interested in someone than they were interested in me

Alistair Baldwin
I find that the internet, you know, it's a double edged sword, where it can offer an opportunity to get to know someone before your disability comes up so much. I've definitely been throughout my life doing either a below the knee or above the knee crop on my photos, but at the same time the internet, it can make people through anonymity, they can be very superficial and make snap judgments and kind of refuse to see the humanity of some people. Do you feel like the internet has been, I guess, more of a net gain or a net loss when it comes to your dating

Carly Findlay
I think in terms of in the early days, definitely a net loss. Like, it wasn't great for my self esteem. And, you know, I was just seeing people that weren't aligning with my values. But then I met my husband on I think it was plenty of fish. I think it was a long time ago now, yeah, and I wouldn't want to be in the dating scene now, no, no. But in terms of, like, you know, personal, like, friend wise, that's been a gain, and also for work, definitely, of course, yeah, but love, it's been a bit up and down.

Alistair Baldwin
Have you felt the need to over explain aspects about your disability when you're meeting people? Or do you find that you know, people are withholding questions that they have, and I guess, what's your response to dealing with people who are too curious or suppressing curiosity? Or...

Carly Findlay
Yeah, I mean, again, back in the day, when, you know, we moved from analog to digital cameras, it was easier then to put a photo up and but, but again, the quality wasn't as as great, so I would often come across as a lot redder than I am, or, you know, depending on the time the day the photo was taken as well, because in the morning, I'm a lot redder than I am at night, because the redness settles down. And so I remember one guy was like, you'd be quite good looking if you weren't so red, or or, and then I had another guy telling me how, you know, how gross I look. And just that they're quite emboldened to just say what they think. So there's that. And then I would explain, like, you know, I have a skin condition. Oh, but don't worry, it's not contagious that. Yeah, that's I would often say that yeah. And then there would be those questions, like, you know, can you have sex, kind of questions when you are in the chatting stages, which is weird, because I think, like, if that's the first thing that someone thinks about a disabled person,

Alistair Baldwin
yeah, can I have sex with them

Carly Findlay
That's a weird thing.

Alistair Baldwin
Maybe ask how my day is going. Yeah, we can see.

Carly Findlay
But then, like, you know, having said that, so I've been on two prominent media programs, and now three raising that question. So when I was on, you can't ask that, I at the end, said, oh, there was no question about, can you have sex? Because that's one of the questions I thought might be asked. And I was kind of joking about that, and I said it on my own terms. And then I did a radio interview with a very seasoned broadcaster in 2018 and he asked me what type of questions I get asked. And I said, Sometimes I've been asked, Can I have sex? And he said, Well, can you and that was weird, because it wasn't on my terms.

Alistair Baldwin
no and you were just saying, here's an example of an annoying question that I hate being asked. And then he's like, Well, let me ask you, yeah.

Carly Findlay
And you know, we're talking about microaggressions, but really it was macro aggressions demonstrated.

Alistair Baldwin
My God

Carly Findlay
So there's that. I remember when I was on plenty of fish, I think plenty of fish, and I was just so over it, and I was just, I did put my photo up, and I had a bit of a media profile at that time, like I'd been harassed or discriminated against in taxis. So there was an article about me from that year online, and I think Adam told me, my husband said to me, after we met in person, he said, Yeah, I looked you up because I'd said

Alistair Baldwin
Parasocial, love for your writing.

Carly Findlay
No, I don't think, I actually don't think he's ever read my writing. To be honest, he took, he took a year to read my book. Yeah that's fine.

Alistair Baldwin
I often find as someone with a genetic disorder, it's often quite a relief that I'm gay, because I remember going to my neurologist when I was very young, and they would sort of talk about, as I started hitting puberty, about like, being careful and family planning and the question of whether or not I should have kids. And I was like, it's not really going to come up for me biologically. Might adopt either way. But do you feel that? I guess people's obsessions around their ideal of the perfect family and stuff like that means that there's a lack of spontaneity or being in the moment because people are playing out all this ramifications of the future?

Carly Findlay
Yeah, I mean, it hasn't been in with any men like that. We, I don't think we've ever gotten to that stage where, you know, talking about family, but I have had situations where people are worried, like, what, what happens if I do get pregnant, and like, people that don't necessarily engage with me or whatever. So that's been awkward. And I have been to doctors where, you know, they're like, oh, as if you're having sex kind of thing.

Alistair Baldwin
They don't even believe that.

Carly Findlay
No, they don't even believe that. But interestingly, I feel like I recently had cancer, and it was ovarian and endometrial cancer, and it felt like at the age of 42 the first time I was treated like a adult lady, right? When I was like, talking about absolutely this, because a number of doctors were saying, you know, do you want to have children? Are you right? Are you sure you don't want to have children? Obviously, they have to make sure before they do a hysterectomy and and that, you know, it took till then to I was treated

Alistair Baldwin
like having an issue affecting your reproductive Yeah, people are actually acknowledging family planning as they should consult with you

Madeleine Stewart
How do you think public perceptions of facial difference influence how people imagine or fail to imagine disability as being sexy or desired?

Carly Findlay
Well, it's very rare we see anyone in advertising in media. You know, we only just had the first disabled woman on screen to have sex, so no, I think there is absolutely a perceived undesirability, because we we don't see it. I mean, I don't know if I want to be the face of a vibrator or condom, but I think there's room for people to do that, because we need, we need to show that level of desirability. And still, even with disability, you know, we do see people who have the beauty privilege when they're representing, you know, facets of life

Alistair Baldwin
well, you know, don't get me started on Paralympians, but is there a piece of media that you could point to that you feel was very formative for you when you were looking, I guess, ahead, to someone who's like, I want to be in a romantic relationship, or I want to be married.

Carly Findlay
I can't think of anything, to be honest. Like, you know, Dolly magazine was telling me that my face was unsightly. And, you know, there was a lot of talk around if your face is too oily, which mine is, like, artificially oily because of the appointment. So no, there was, there was really nothing. And I would say, until you can't ask that, there was nothing around people with facial differences living ordinary and extraordinary lives. Having said that, though I think I did, you can't ask that just before I got married, and it was really important to me to make sure the wedding photos were not retouched, and to show that and to show that people like me could get married, but then also, I didn't want that to be the pinnacle of someone's achievement, because that's what people think. That's like when a baby's born with ichthyosis, the parents like my child will never get married. I'm like, why are you thinking about your baby getting married? So many other things to do, but I see this in adults as well, like they think that that is the pinnacle of achievement and acceptance

Alistair Baldwin
Key milestone for life is to find love and marriage

Carly Findlay
with another.

Madeleine Stewart
It must have been huge going through cancer treatment, and you know, your relationship with your body might have shifted a bit. What did navigating sex look like during or after that time?

Carly Findlay
So when I got diagnosed, just before I got diagnosed, actually, when it was likely that I would have cancer, they told me that I'd have to have a hysterectomy, because that was the only way they could test for it. So if they tested for it via a biopsy, which is essentially a needle in inside you It could spread the cancer. So they said that the only safe way was to do a full or partial hysterectomy, depending on what type of you know whether it was positive or not. And so I woke up from surgery with the diagnosis of cancer and straight into menopause. So I had no preparation. Lucky, I like read a few things and listened to some podcasts, because a lot of my friends are of that age that are going through. And I was quite young to go into menopause, but I didn't have any kind of preparation. And so that means that now, you know, obviously I can't get pregnant, so that that's been and then obviously I had to recover from surgery, which takes six weeks. And then, like chemo, when you have chemo, you actually get told all the things you can't do, and one of those things is have unprotected sex, and apparently you become cytotoxic, and that means someone else can get harmed by the by the bodily waste, I think. So, I was told that I couldn't have unprotected sex, and if I was sick, I'd have to clean it up myself, and we couldn't kiss for a while. No, no. I think they said. We could kiss. But also all the way through that, I didn't feel like doing anything, because I was so tired and so sore and so, you know

Alistair Baldwin
Right? And someone else, like a contact, high dose of chemo, possibly the mucosal barrier,

Carly Findlay
yeah, yeah. And so one of the things that I can't do from because of my cancer, because of the type of cancer, I can't take hormone replacement therapy. I was told that because of the radiotherapy, I've had chemotherapy and radiotherapy, and the key the radiotherapy was on my pelvis, my vagina might shrivel up. That's what they told me. It might just close like, what they're very good. Actually, I must say, like the Peter Mac and the royal women's are excellent. And there was a nurse who was like a sexologist there, and we had a talk about that. And then she recommended I go to a high end sex shop to get a vibrator to put the cream in, rather than the thing that they gave me, which was like a kitchen utensil.

Alistair Baldwin
I mean, across the board, any kind of medical tech is some of the least sexy, you know, gray scale material ever. And it's like, let's have a bit of design flair on some of these tools.

Carly Findlay
So apparently, the Peter Mac is working with this sex shop on helping women or and non binary people, gender diverse people with regaining their sex confidence. And I thought that was really great that they raised that with me.

Alistair Baldwin
I'm curious to ask about how going through cancer treatments and living with cancer has impacted or shifted the ways that you find intimacy within your relationship, and how that dynamic of potentially a new caring dynamic or new roles shifted with this new diagnosis

Carly Findlay
I think firstly, I meant to say for the last question, I had a huge change in my body, and I got really thin really quickly, and I didn't know, I didn't I don't wait, or I didn't weigh myself then, and I didn't realise how many kilos I'd lost until the doctor was like, How many kilos Have you lost? I said, I don't know. So we showed photos of like, from six months ago till then. And he said, Okay, yeah. And, and so my body took a long time to get used to, like, I was a lot smaller, and I also in this age of cancel culture and the internet, I don't feel like it's safe to talk about body changing when you have thin privilege. So there was that. And then all of my clothes would hang off me, and I wear a lot of belts now, because they're too big, I still want to keep a lot of my clothes. I think that was the first kind of sign that something might be wrong. I was trying on a dress. I'm like, Oh, my boobs aren't as big now. And that was weird. And so I felt like I wasn't, I might not have been as appealing, you know, to my husband, because I just, I kind of look more like a, you know, I had the physique of a teenage boy, more than, more than what it was, you know, curvy yeah. And so that was really hard in terms of, you know, sex drive, there's just like, it's so weird when you have menopause, there's not much, there's not much. And so, you know, there's been a couple of times where I've had a really good orgasm and I'm like, Oh, maybe I have to remember that, because it's not going to come around, like, more than twice a year.

Carly Findlay
Burning it into your memory.

Carly Findlay
Yeah, one of the other things, gosh, I've never talked about this before. I think I mentioned it to a friend, and she was like, this is a really weird conversation. I got really bad neuropathy in my fingers, so chemo gives you neuropathy, and that's one of the only kind of symptoms that are stuck from chemo. And so it really hurt to masturbate with because my fingers were so numb, and then I'd be like, This is so weird. Yeah, nothing's it's not doing anything

Alistair Baldwin
right, and you don't have that feedback.

Carly Findlay
Yeah, it's such a weird and then I just ah

Madeleine Stewart
yeah, if society could unlearn one thing about disability and sex, especially around facial difference or chronic illness. What would you want that to be?

Carly Findlay
I think it's really important to build a relationship with yourself and, you know, explore, explore yourself and love yourself. That's really important. Like I I've written in my book, say hello, I said that you know, it's really important to love yourself, like the milestone isn't loving someone else it's loving yourself, because so much we're told we shouldn't, and we're not deserving, and we're not wanting to be seen. So I think it's that but also I don't know whether having casual relationships is that easy for disabled people, so finding someone that you really trust you know, is also important if you're wanting a relationship with someone else

Carly Findlay
Thank you, that was fun.

Carly Findlay
Yeah, and when you're talking about finding that self love, do you feel that once you've done that work of finding pride and confidence, that's something which is bringing attraction in from other people, because you are, I guess, shining brightly.

Carly Findlay
Yeah, absolutely, you're inner glow shines .So I think that's, I think that's really important.

Alistair Baldwin
You've got a brilliant career. Thank you, a lovely marriage and an incredible eggplant emoji brooch that you're rocking today, for anyone listening,

Carly Findlay
yeah, it's the most risque brooch I've got.

Alistair Baldwin
It's fabulous. I need to know where you've got it. I'll send you the link. Thank you. Thanks so much for coming on the show Carly

Alistair Baldwin
And our final guest is Liel Bridgford, who's a psychologist, writer, educator and podcaster, proud, disabled immigrant, non conforming femme who is based in Naarm, Melbourne. So Liel, thanks for coming on the show.

Liel Bridgford
Thank you

Madeleine Stewart
So Liel, as a psychologist working with clients with chronic illness, what are some of the biggest challenges you see people face when it comes to navigating intimacy and sex while managing fluctuating energy levels or pain?

Liel Bridgford
There's quite a few challenges, but I think there's a few big themes that we kind of see, I see in my clinical work, but also some of them come through in research. I think it's important to actually note that there's not enough research at all about intimacy and sexuality for disabled people. So a lot of the stuff that I'm talking about comes from a tiny bit of research and then a lot of experience working with people. So a lot of people struggle with fatigue, fluctuating energy levels, but also managing those symptoms can get in the way of intimate relationships in their day to day. So people might find that they're in pain one day when they thought they're going to have a nice night with their partner, but also they might find that they don't really feel like having sex or kind of engaging with their partner because of how fatigued they are that day, for example. So that's kind of one big theme that comes through for people, but also there's a lot about confidence that I see all the time, so people feel kind of hesitant to maybe assert themselves in a sexual relationships or ask for what they want, or even attempt to have a relationship if they're single as well.

Alistair Baldwin
Because they're internalising a lot of those society messages around worthiness or feeling like burdens, and then they're carrying that into personal interactions,

Liel Bridgford
Definitely, and there's a specific self efficacy for sexuality, and that's within sexual relationships. How confident do we feel to actually ask for what we want to have what we want in a sexual relationships? And as disabled people, a lot of the time that's impacted, because we are not seen as sexual beings in society. So people often feel like, why is anyone gonna want me or my partner wouldn't find me attractive because of my disability? Or do I even go on a dating site? Because anyone who's gonna see me with my mobility aid is going to discount me straight away. So that's definitely another big challenge.

Alistair Baldwin
Do you also find that sometimes people are choosing between medications which have side effects which can also impact their sex lives in order to deal with things like pain and fatigue, but they're having to make these judgment calls about what's more important for them day to day

Liel Bridgford
Yeah, absolutely. And medications is a huge one. Of course, you know, a lot of disabled people use medication for a range of different symptom management, and those medications, of course, can impact our sex lives. A lot of the time people choose other life areas of a sexuality, I would say, and but then they suffer because of that, and sometimes even not the fact of medication, but symptoms themselves can get in the way. So some people have loss of sensations and pain that make intimacy very difficult, and no medication can kind of change that. And then how do we communicate about that? So communication with our partners or potential sexual partners, is another massive challenge for disabled people, and it comes down to both our confidence, but also, how does society support us to communicate our needs

Madeleine Stewart
As someone who's disabled yourself and I'm also disabled, I have energy fluctuations. How do you integrate your own experiences, of your own energy shifts and physical limitations into your own work with your clients.

Liel Bridgford
Well, I really like the fact that I'm disabled. It really helps me in my work. I say to every single client that I'm disabled, I obviously am not ashamed of it, and if people ask about it, then I'm very happy to share about my experience. Of course, the sessions or my work with clients are not about me, but being able to actually understand what it's like to have your identity really changed by the fact that you have a disability, because our self concept absolutely impact our sexuality. And for years, I was born disabled, and for years, I felt very ashamed of that, and that, of course, impacted my sexual relationships. And. I felt that feedback as well. So I felt I had multiple partners where I just knew that they were ashamed to be with me. I could just tell and it's a process of changing how we relate to ourselves. It's about engaging with the disability community, kind of finding pride all of that process of changing how I feel and think about my own disability. That helps me then help client understand, okay, we can change the fact that you're ashamed of it now, or you're grieving right now. Doesn't mean you're going to feel like that forever. We can go through a process of you being actually confident and proud in having a disability, and then you'll be able to be more confident sexually as well

Alistair Baldwin
navigating sex and intimacy in relationships where someone has a chronic illness. Clearly, it must require a lot of communication about how you're feeling and what you can schedule and stuff like that. And do you have any advice for people advocating for their needs and the relationships and finding, you know, space and time for sex and intimacy, given the unpredictability of their health day to day,

Liel Bridgford
communication is so important, and it's something that I would say I work with people almost, almost 100% of my clients, that's an issue that comes in at some point, because it can get In the way of our relationships and our sexual relationships and our intimacy. My first tip would be to get to know your own needs and wants first. And a lot of the times, it's a step that people miss and forget. So actually sitting down with yourself and finding out, reflecting, experimenting, whatever that might be, what do you actually want? What do you actually like? And we hear this advice a lot for non disabled people, but we deserve just the same kind of exploration, exploring your body and whether you need support with that, or whether you can do it by yourself, regardless, making that space and start writing down or dictating to your phone. What are the kind of things I want to try? What are the kind of things that matter to me in an intermittent sexual relationship, and that's often a part that people miss thinking about what actually matters to me. Why do I want to be intimate with my partner as well or with a potential partner? Sometimes it's like the physical touch. Some people really seek that more. Other people, it's like the emotional part comes with the physical touch. It could be something completely different, but thinking about the why would help you understand. How am I going to communicate that.

Alistair Baldwin
Yeah, because when you have clarity on not just what you need, but why you need it or desire it, that conversation, which can seem so daunting in a relationship to advocate for your needs, it becomes clearer, because you can really say, Yeah, I guess I want this, because I want intimacy with you, but it can be too exhausting if we do it one way and not the other,

Liel Bridgford
And being able to schedule in a time the schedule, of course, you we can't predict. We may still have a low spoon day. We may still be in pain and not be able to go through with something, but schedule in a time to communicate. Often, people fall into the trap of communicating when they're really, really heightened, like they're really angry or they're exhausted, and then their partner tries to talk to them. And it all blows up a lot of the time. Something that comes up in research as well, a little bit in a tiny bit of research that we have, and I see it in my practice as well. People feel like if I'm going to say to my partner, x, y, z, about my fatigue, my pain, whatever it is, they're not going to get it. They're not going to understand. What's the point? They're not going to be interested. They don't get it. They don't have a disability. And so then they shut down. So my advice is to absolutely give our partners or potential partners the benefit of the doubt and say the thing, don't be scared to say the thing, the worst that can happen is your needs are going to be met. Doing all of those steps in the lead up is going to help. But absolutely say the thing. Say what you want to try and yeah, and play as well.

Alistair Baldwin
Now Liel in this country, I guess across the world, we're often taught a very narrow definition of what intimacy looks like in a relationship. But I'm curious, what are the sort of things that you do with your clients in terms of redefining what intimacy can be when their symptoms or their disabilities can often mean that the typical heteronormative intimacy that we're sort of taught is what a sexual romantic relationship is, isn't on the table as much.

Liel Bridgford
I think it comes back to the why. You know what is important to you? Why do you want to connect with your partner and doing the work of understanding what is it that you're after from this relationship? A lot of the time it is like an orgasm or the touch, or whatever that might be, but a lot of the time it's also just connecting with your partner. And I really miss that. I miss my partner. You know, I hear that a lot, so being able to kind of work on what we talked about before just being together and redefining that, that word intimacy, like. You don't have to have sex to be intimate. You can just sit together in the same room without having to think about chores or the stress of, you know, your rent or whatever it might be, just being together a little bit as a starting point and rethinking, you know, your expectations, so really exploring what people expect sex and relationships are going to be like

Alistair Baldwin
Do you have any examples from the work that you've done of stand out moments where people have done that work redefining intimacy in their relationship and it's really strengthened or helped a relationship thrive?

Liel Bridgford
I have a client who recently told me how they've now scheduled in her and her partner have scheduled in date nights on a regular basis, which they haven't done, and it doesn't have mean that they're going to have sex on every single one of those date nights, but they're spending time together and they're connecting again. And it all started with just sitting together watching a show because they're both exhausted. She didn't have any spoons for anything else you know, he's exhausted from life and just sitting together watching a show, not even talking. Research actually shows how confident someone is in their disabled identity determines how confident they are to assert their needs, which then determines how satisfied they are sexually. So saying you're Disabled and Proud might help you feel more satisfied sexually,

Alistair Baldwin
because it takes the confidence of that pride and it bleeds through into other areas exactly. I mean, that makes you know, I'm very proud to be disabled, and I am very slutty. So anecdotally, to add to the little bit of research, well, what are some of the macro changes to society that you would love to see in your ideal world, where structural and policy changes are enacted so that across the world, people really feel supported to find intimacy, love, connection and sex.

Liel Bridgford
The first thing is we need accessible education to sexual health. We don't actually have that yet in most of Australia and most of the western world, I would say so we really need to bring that in, because a lot of people with disabilities, who, like me, have grown up disabled, haven't had the exposure to what able people have in terms of sexual health education, which is crucial to making mistakes, to learning, to getting the confidence to take risks, to learn how to socialise, to ask for what you want, to all of that. So we need sex education and relationship education to be accessible to everyone, to all disabled people, both physical disabilities, intellectual disability. You know, every single struggle or change or variation that we have in our society, everyone should have access to sexual and health education, and then we need, of course, to shift the stigma, because all of the problem, a lot of the problems we're talking about, are stemming all from ableism and from the discrimination that we experience as disabled people, we need to really bring about policies that really strongly prohibit any kind of discrimination and prejudice against disabled people. And I know that in our law, it's kind of supposed to be like that, but it's not so. We need politicians to really work on making that happen and be strong on what is important to us as a society and disabled people, being safe in society is crucial. If we're not safe and disabled women, particularly if we're not safe moving about this world and we're worried about being abused, being assaulted, whether it's on the street or at home, then of course, we're not going to feel sexy. I think it is important to acknowledge that disabled people are more likely to experience family violence in the home, and they're more likely to experience sexual assault, and that is just a horrific truth, that the statistics are so high. And within that disability, you know, including kind of that includes both autistic people, people with physical disability, and that shouldn't be the case.

Alistair Baldwin
Well it sounds like you're doing a lot of great work, heading us in that direction. Thanks so much for coming onto the show.

Liel Bridgford
Thanks for having me.

Alistair Baldwin
It's been lovely speaking to you.

Liel Bridgford
You too.

Madeleine Stewart
No, truly. Thank you so much.

Alistair Baldwin
What an incredible episode of love without limits. We've had today. My personal highlight, it was really great hearing from Liel about how she brings her own lived experience with chronic illness into her work as a psychologist, and how that can really help provide specific support for people living with chronic illness. It was great

Madeleine Stewart
I really enjoyed talking to Carly Findlay, you know, because I've been a big fan of Carly for years, you know, books and all of her social media and now her journey through cancer as well. I think it was really interesting speaking to her about that, as well as her disability and and how, how it's shaped her life and her love life as well. Very interesting,

Alistair Baldwin
absolutely. I mean, I learned so much, and me too, what a great episode that's been today's episode of love without limits. Thanks for listening. Bye.

Madeleine Stewart
This has been Love without Limits, hosted by us, Madeline Stewart and Alastair Baldwin

Alistair Baldwin
And produced by Eliza hull, in partnership with SBS and Attitude Foundation. SBS team is Joel Supple and Max Gosford, recorded at Session in Progress.