Dating with an intellectual disability

Alistair Baldwin This episode is recorded on the land of the Wurundjeri, Woi wurrung people of the Kulin nation, and would like to give our respect to their elders, past and present.

Alistair Baldwin Love without limits. Is a podcast about intimacy and yes, sex. Just a heads up, we'll be talking openly about topics that might not be for everyone.

Madeleine Stewart I'm Madeline Stewart,

Alistair Baldwin and I'm Alastair Baldwin, and you're listening to love without limits, the podcast that dives deep into real conversations about sex, love and intimacy for disabled people.

Madeleine Stewart Today, we're tackling a huge and often taboo topic the way people with intellectual disability are often disrespected or infantilised when it comes to sex or dating.

Alistair Baldwin Society loves treating disabled adults like they're eternally children and just denying their desires, their agency and their right to having loving intimate relationships.

Madeleine Stewart The truth is, disabled people do crave connection, romance and sex, just like everyone else. And on today's episode, we're actually talking to some pretty amazing advocates who are working really hard to make sure people with intellectual disabilities are respected.

John O'Donnell Thank you.

Alistair Baldwin Now, John, just to kick off our chat, I was wondering, what's your dating experience been like?

John O'Donnell My days.. My dating is, is, is, at the moment, it's non existent. There's a lot of ableism there in that LBJ community.

Alistair Baldwin Have you felt when you go to gay spaces like the gay club? People have had a problem with your disability?

Alistair Baldwin Feeling desirable, feeling loved, is something that we all deserve. And on today's show, we've got some guests who are really committed to making sure that everybody knows that. John O'Donnell is an Aboriginal disability advocate with an intellectual disability and cerebral palsy, who has trained at three triple Z in radio and hosted all in on Channel 31 a show about disability arts and culture. He has completed voice at the table with Saru, hoping he can use his voice to advocate for himself and other people with disabilities. Welcome John.

John O'Donnell Yeah, they have because they don't know how to talk to us. They don't know how to go about things. That I don't know how to mean, to to be able to communicate and talk to us in a normal way.

Alistair Baldwin Do you think that people have a lot of assumptions about you because of your disability?

John O'Donnell Yeah, yeah. They see a support worker, or they see my disability first before they see me. It's really hard.

Alistair Baldwin John, what do you think the queer community could do to be more accepting of disabled people?

John O'Donnell People should be able to just treat us with no dignity and respect like everyone else, like I feel like people should just treat us like everyone else, because we are human beings, and we should be able. We should. We should be a just treat us like dignity and respect, because we're just like anyone else. We are your brothers and we your sisters. We everyone like, yeah.

Alistair Baldwin Why do you think so many people struggle to see us as worthy of love and capable of being romantic and sexual people.

John O'Donnell Recently, we've just been shied away.

John O'Donnell It's coming back from, I'm gonna say, I'm gonna put it out there, but it's coming back from the days of institution, when we've been institutionalised, right? And the mainstream community don't get that. They don't get that, that we've only just been instituted in history. We've been institutionalised and that that's, that's ableism coming out.

Madeleine Stewart How does it feel when society sends you this message that you're too vulnerable to have a sex life?

John O'Donnell I come out when I 16, so mum and dad and I come from the country t come from country Victoria, so that's another lens to it. But for me that it was really difficult that I had my first partner and the side, and I got told that society wasn't ready, ready for me, ready for me, because I would have been judged at school, or would have been judged and everyone else. It was really hard.

Alistair Baldwin Do you think that coming from country Victoria, there was less access to resources or education for you?

John O'Donnell Big time, big time. There was, there was organisations that were not developed yet, like 18 plus, that there's there's not there's none of that tools and none of that things that should have been there, but there's no education there.

Madeleine Stewart I have ADHD and I often have to mask in certain situations. Do you ever feel like you've had to mask or hide your disability when you're dating or meeting new people?

John O'Donnell Yeah, so I, because of my CP, I tippy walk a lot, so in, I'm going to say in venues that are dark, and for lgb people, it is very difficult that we've got to try mask our disability, especially when we go to some venues that a lot of people are there, and we try, and I have to try and mask my disability as I can, which is really difficult.

Alistair Baldwin Absolutely, I know that when I've gone to the gay club, if it's winter, I'm wearing pants so people can't see that I've got leg braces, but when it's summer and I'm wearing shorts, it's the first thing people see, and it can be often before they even say hello or how are you they're asking questions about my disability. Has that sort of stuff happened to you?

John O'Donnell Yeah, like, I have to hide. I have to make sure that I'm standing straight legs and not on my tippy toes, because in my tippy toes, I'm like, Oh, shit, people.

Alistair Baldwin They make assumptions

John O'Donnell before they see me which is really difficult.

Alistair Baldwin Have you felt any pressure about seeming capable or independent enough to be in relationships. Have you sort of felt that judgment?

John O'Donnell I felt that definitely, that that judgement there, that that there was a huge judgment, but I will try and block it, and I try and put something another spin to it. I try and put more, like, more communication, and try to do it better, because I feel that, especially with obviously, like, the apps don't work for gay men myself, because we cannot read But for me, I can't read. Yeah, we've been left behind, yeah, big time. We have left behind big time. And where we need to actually go back to the old way, where my mum and my grandparents were all meeting at dancers, yeah? And why not? Why not our why not our gay community? Could do that? Come on.

Alistair Baldwin Exactly. It's all very online nowadays, which can be helpful for some people, but for other people, it's so much nicer to meet in person. And I feel like especially on an app, it's very easy to make a snap judgment, because there's 100 profiles that you have to sort through. Yeah, yeah. And so people can be very superficial.

John O'Donnell I'm very, very old school, not not new school, the mainstream community, community telling me that they're that meant that I should be going on the app, which I don't want to be going to the app, because I can't read, I can't write, so I'm illiterate, so this is really, really hard for me to do that.

Alistair Baldwin Yeah? And it's not accessible to you because it's all in text, yeah? What is a kind of I guess, what's the alternative? What do you think would be helpful for you when it comes to dating?

John O'Donnell I saw for me, I have, I do use it, but I have, I have talk to text, and I do use that, but also, you also use AI as well, but that AI, they don't get the AI messages because the AI messages are like, robot, right? Yeah,

Alistair Baldwin it's not very romantic. It's a bit too robot. So you're getting some inspiration from the old ways that your mum and your grandparents, how they met people. Have you felt a lot of support from your family in general? Nowadays

John O'Donnell Mum and Dad, Mum and Dad have definitely it's hard. I know I've moved, but it's hard.

Alistair Baldwin Right? You're feeling that other kind of pressure. I'm just parents, yeah, exactly.

John O'Donnell I'm like, but okay, I'm getting there first. I'm a First Nations man, and we all, all of us. We're all of us are birds, and we all should be looking for a soul mate.

Alistair Baldwin Beautiful. Well, thanks so much for this chat. It was very interesting and happy dating out there. John, thanks for coming on the show.

John O'Donnell Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's been great.

Madeleine Stewart Our wonderful guest is Madeline Prasad. Madeline is an advocate. For people with intellectual disability like herself and is a proud First Nations woman, welcome other Madeline.

Alistair Baldwin Today's for fun. I'm in the middle of Madeleine sandwich.

Madeleine Stewart Beautiful. It's glorious. Welcome Madeleine.

Alistair Baldwin Thanks for coming on the show to kick it off. I was wondering, what are some of the assumptions that people make about disabled people, people with intellectual disabilities, when it comes to love?

Madeleine Prasad People shouldn't assume people with disabilities, they have the right to live their own life, and they can make, you know, have a partner, but there's a lot of stigma out there. They shouldn't get treated badly, and governments and families and carers should stay right away, and when we need to stand up and show society we've got disabilities, we've got the right to have a relationship and get out there and have a go, and you will find someone that loves you, you know, respects you, and it goes both ways. There shouldn't be any negative jargon about people with disabilities, living, working, you know, doing what you like to do in society. We can achieve it, and we can do it.

Madeleine Stewart Yeah, too, right. Yeah, absolutely. Do you think that people generally have this idea that people with intellectual disabilities specifically shouldn't, shouldn't find love, shouldn't date and things like that?

Madeleine Prasad People think you're incapable, but I've got capacity. You can achieve it. You can do it. You can live it and breathe it. And I've got a dual disability. And you can, you know, make have a partner, you can go to work, you can go to school. Got to stop this negative jargon and stigma and get up and change society and parents and carers and disability people from agencies need to listen to this. We can get up and make a powerful change, and we will and we are.

Madeleine Stewart It's wonderful. I completely agree.

Alistair Baldwin I love that. What are some of the things that you would like to see society and carers and people do in order to support disabled people finding love and connection?

Madeleine Prasad Well, they need to get off guardianship administration. They need to support people with the NDIS plans. Let them live their lives. Let them bring their partners home. Let them stop treating them like immature babies or infants. They're 50 years old, men and female in society. Leave them alone and let people with intellectual or different types of disabilities, let them have a partner and leave everyone alone.

Alistair Baldwin Well, I feel like a lot of the people who are making these decisions don't even know or are friends with disabled people, and they're making all these calls, but they don't even understand the community. Do you agree?

Madeleine Prasad I agree they're very negative, and they don't even know disability people, and it's very wrong. They should leave people alone. Get education and knowledge, and you know, be careful what you say out there. People with disabilities have the right to make decisions, and may have a partner, and you know, have a relationship and find royal love. We can achieve it, and we can do it, and we'll make it happen. Your disabilities don't define you. You can get out there and find someone that will really love you, honour you and respect you, and you can make it happen in a positive way. And don't let people scare you out there, whatever you've been through domestic violence or drug addiction or anything, there's help out there. You can get up and you can achieve it.

Madeleine Stewart How's you and your love life? Have you got a special somebody?

Madeleine Prasad Yeah, I've met a nice guy. Yeah, I'm gonna go in and, like, a date with him.

Madeleine Stewart I love this. I was just real curious. I'm like, okay, all right, I'm picking up what you're putting down, Madeline. Maybe it's just because we're two Madeline. So I'm like, Yeah, I'm feeling this vibe.

Alistair Baldwin Yeah, you're about to see your partner. I'm single. No dates on the horizon, but that's why I'm hoping that people listen to my nice voice on this podcast and ask me out. Yeah, fingers crossed.

Yeah. What a beautiful note to end on. I think that might be thank you so much for coming on the show.

Madeleine Prasad Thank you to all of you too. I really appreciate it.

Alistair Baldwin Our final guest today is Zoe Broadway. Zoe has been a disability advocate with the organisation valid for 14 years. She supports people with intellectual disability through empowerment training, enabling people to have a voice at the table when it comes to their lives, including intimate relationships. Thanks for coming on the show Zoe.

Zoe Broadway You're welcome. Thanks for having me.

Alistair Baldwin Just to kick us off. I'd love to ask from your advocacy. How would you describe the main ways that people with intellectual disabilities face infantilisation when it comes to sex, love and intimate relationships?

Zoe Broadway I would say a lot of the time people with an intellectual disability are treated as. If they're a child, in my experience, not always, but a lot of the time this they're seen as childlike, treated as children, spoken down to. Lot of the time you hear people use the baby voice with people, things like that. And it's also seen as though they're innocent and couldn't possibly have a, you know, a sexual desire or an urge or things like that. So yeah, it's been interesting, I suppose, to watch how I respond to that as a support worker as well over the years, and a friend to people as well, and how we might talk about things

Alistair Baldwin In your work, you're clearly working with, you know, clients with intellectual disabilities through empowerment training. But does your work often mean that you're, I guess, working with the people around the person with intellectual disability, medical professionals or family. Do you often feel that you have to, I guess, adjust some of their viewpoints in order to benefit?

Zoe Broadway I think so. So I've had a pretty long career, so I've probably, I've worked with people for almost 30 years, 14 years at valid but yes, I tend to notice that, and I try to, I suppose, model in the way I speak with people. And yeah, obviously you gotta be gentle. You can't be rude. And, well, you can be rude, but you know, you want to try and have people come along in a positive, proactive, empowering way.

Madeleine Stewart Nice. Why do you think society struggles so much to see disabled people like especially those with intellectual disabilities, as sexual and romantic beings? I don't understand it well. Why do you think that is?

Zoe Broadway The myths of purity and that people with an intellectual disability can't be seen as creatures who desire that innocence and that child. You know that perception, I think that that comes into play a lot of the time, and also how people have been raised themselves.

Alistair Baldwin There can be these puritanical perspectives which make it hard for you know, even abled people to talk openly around sex and sexuality. Do you feel that there's anything in the media which is reinforcing this perspective as well, or is there a deficit in the representation of adults with intellectual disabilities having these full sex and romantic lives

Zoe Broadway Definitely the representation hasn't been there. Isn't there enough? Absolutely, I absolutely loving, love on the spectrum that is one of my all time. It's just so honest and that depict and show real human desire for companionship, love, all of the things that you know we all want as a human being to fill in our own life.

Madeleine Stewart How could support workers, families, systems be better set up to support rather than block the dating and sex lives of people with intellectual disabilities?

Zoe Broadway Oh, goodness. There's, well, obviously attitudes, family, perception and expectations, or lack of expectations, that that people can have a relationship, they can cope with a relationship. There's staff who have their own family culture that they bring you try as a support worker, as somebody who works with somebody. I've always tried to leave my stuff at the door, but you're bringing yourself to work. You can't always, you know, so there's always the Yeah, your own values that you're bringing, which don't always support empowering somebody to have a full life. There is that power and control that doesn't always, you know, it's subconscious as well. I think as human beings, we as much as we don't want to have that attribute or that come out of ourselves. We do. We want to protect people.

Alistair Baldwin And it can be an instinctual response that exactly might not even be aware that you're exhibiting. I mean, that is such a huge concept in the disabled community, this idea of dignity, of risk, where true equality is allowing people to have an equal opportunity to make decisions that you personally wouldn't make, or to make a mistake, because everyone has a right to make mistakes too. In your career, have you been in positions like that where you have had to maybe take more of a step back or to you? Be hands off with a client

Zoe Broadway absolutely, yeah, for sure. And I've had to really reflect on my own values and my own upbringing and all of those sorts of things. I haven't done it correctly or how I would have hoped I would have done it when I've reflected so I've had to grow and adjust and learn myself, but yeah, absolutely, it's it's difficult, but it's only when you are open to being reflective. I think that you can do a better job.

Alistair Baldwin How do you think Australia's current policies and legal system is when it comes to supporting people with intellectual disabilities. Is there any policy change that you would like to see?

Zoe Broadway I think there's too much power and not enough grassroots, one on one, individualised support. It's more about control, rather than supporting somebody where they need it. If it's affecting the person, the person needs to have a say in what policies are made about them. Absolutely, education is imperative. I think, I think it's really, really important, because knowledge we know equals power. So if people know about things, they're going to be empowered. For people with intellectual disabilities, sex ed needs to be accessible. It needs to be ongoing, and it needs to be real, not just, you know, about body parts and things like that, needs to be like, honest and what's pleasurable and what's not and, you know, consent and all of that sort of stuff. Absolutely

Alistair Baldwin What are some of the access barriers? I mean, earlier in the episode, we were talking to John, who was speaking about how dating websites and apps are very inaccessible because they're text based, and he can't read or write. What? What are those accessibility measures that you'd love to see in a sex ed program? You know, is it more, you know, anatomical models in person? Is it more visual? What does that look like?

Zoe Broadway Well, I think it looks like whatever it needs to be for the people who are saying they can't access. So I think there needs to be consultations, there needs to be conversations, there needs to be a lot of CO design, there needs to be more education for the people who are creating these sites and apps and things like that, so that it can be more accessible for more people to be able to have a full life and connect with people in whatever form way they want to do that.

Alistair Baldwin Things like lack of accessibility, ableism in society, there are so many factors which lead to loneliness being a really huge issue for people with disabilities, people with intellectual disabilities, for I guess, people who are feeling lonely, who really do want to find love. What are some of the tools that they can use or things that they can focus on when they're dealing with that feeling of loneliness?

Zoe Broadway When someone is empowered to know who they are and what they want and what they like. And, you know, I know for my own self, it's a journey of figuring out who I am. And, you know, loving myself, which is, you know, how can you love someone else until you do love yourself?

Alistair Baldwin Well, it sounds like you're doing a lot of great work making that positive future happen. Thanks so much for coming on the show. Zoe, it's been great chatting to you.

Zoe Broadway Thanks for having me.

Madeleine Stewart What an incredible episode we've had. I've loved talking with my fellow Madeline and hearing all about her passion and about disabled people being listened to by the wider community. Madelines, we gotta love them.

Alistair Baldwin Well, I loved being in my Madeline sandwich. I also really loved speaking with John O'Donnell, especially about how apps and internet dating, which is very like text and writing based often, can make dating much less accessible for lots of disabled folks. It was a really eye opening chat.

Madeleine Stewart Yeah, absolutely. And hearing Zoe talk all about her advocacy work and helping people have the education that they need to be safe and respected and find love, it was really amazing.

Alistair Baldwin I mean, it was just a fabulous episode. Yeah, this has been love without limits. Thanks for listening.

Madeleine Stewart This has been love without limits, hosted by us, Madeline Stewart and Alistair Baldwin.

Produced by Eliza hull, in partnership with SBS and attitude foundation. SBS team is Joel supple and Max Gosford. Recorded at Session in Progress.