Disability, Sex and What’s Missing on our Screens

Alistair Baldwin
This episode is recorded on the land of the Wurundjeri, Woi wurrung people of the Kulin nation, and would like to give our respect to their elders, past and present.

I'm Alistair Baldwin, and you're listening to love without limits, the Podcast where we explore the real, raw, often taboo stories of disabled people as they navigate sex, love, everything in between.

Love without limits is a podcast about intimacy, and yes sex, just a heads up, we will be talking openly about topics that might not be for everyone.

Madeleine Stewart
I'm Madeline Stewart. And today, we're focusing on sex and disability in TV and film. And look for too long, TV and film have treated disabled people as either innocent, asexual angels or tragic figures destined to live without intimacy.

Alistair Baldwin
Authentic, nuanced portrayals of disabled folks just exploring desire, pleasure and messy real relationships are so few and far between. It's really upsetting

Madeleine Stewart
Look the first time I saw someone like me on screen was Luke Skywalker classic, not actually disabled, but, yeah, he did also kiss his sister, which is, I don't think the sexiest representation for me personally, it's not the best rap for people with one hand. Yeah, we all kiss our siblings. Fact,

Alistair Baldwin
Well, the first sex scene that I remember seeing with a disabled person was in this movie The Bone Collector, where Denzel Washington is like playing this quadriplegic criminologist, and Angelina Jolie is like a plucky young beat cop with a camera to be his like feet on the ground, so crimes, and then they hook up, and it's like incredibly sensual but incredibly inauthentic casting. It's not the best rep ever. Yeah, so he's her boss, so call HR, definitely.

Madeleine Stewart
But look, now things thank goodness, are getting much better. You know, we've got heartbreak high, we've got sex education. Look, there's progress, and people are loving it, which leads perfectly into our first guest, who is my personal girl crush, Alistair. Introduce our first guest. Let me read off my research, because I know next to nothing about you.

Alistair Baldwin
You don't go way back. Hannah Diviney is an Australian actress, activist and author

Hannah Diviney
So they tell me

Alistair Baldwin
Plays Nora in The 2024 black comedy Audrey and of course, were nominated for an ACTR Award for Best Supporting Actress. No biggie. You were the lead in the ACTR award winning SBS dramedy, late comers.

Hannah Diviney
Directed by....

Alistair Baldwin
Well, I directed an episode. So yes, look, full disclosure, we're friends. Sorry about it. I'm going to be asking softball questions.

Hannah Diviney
You can watch some of our friendship develop on SBS, on demand.

Alistair Baldwin
Absolutely, I'm never on screen, but you can really feel my presence.

Hannah Diviney
You can absolutely

Madeleine Stewart
Hannah, first of all, we would love to say iconic. We love you. We love you so much. We love your work.

Hannah Diviney
Love you guys too

Madeleine Stewart
So you were part of the first Australian sex scene featuring a disabled actor. What did that moment feel like and like, both professionally as an actor, but also kind of personally as Hannah, like, how did you feel doing that?

Hannah Diviney
It was a huge deal. Like, especially knowing that our community hasn't seen that representation before,

We were all really, really committed to getting it right. It was really important to me that we make people watch as weird as that sounds. We didn't just imply that these two characters were having sex. We didn't just focus on it for a second and then cut away. We actually had this beautiful, pretty intense moment. And actually, it's funny, because the what we shot is potentially more intense than what made the cut

Alistair Baldwin
Well, you know, we could go for R rated

Hannah Diviney
We tried a couple of different things, but I was also really lucky to have a co star like Patrick Jhanur, who had really interesting experience as a carer of disabled children in his day job. So he kind of knew. He especially worked with a little boy with cerebral palsy so he can't he knew, like, how to help me move my body and be comfortable in that way, which was also really helpful. Because, I mean, as you guys know, the less explaining you have to do about how to do things, the less, like labor and weight it is on your brain and that there was enough going on at that particular moment, especially because you have, like, your intimacy coordinator who was incredible, but basically they're standing beside the camera, like yelling out the choreography. That you've mapped out with all your consent exercises and stuff like that, and you're trying to remember that do it right and also look like you. Imagine a character would look like you can't look like you're concentrated on what you're doing.

Alistair Baldwin
Yeah, you have to weirdly like you're just kind of like doing fight choreography.

Madeleine Stewart
Did you have a conversation with your family maybe being like, Oh, just so you know, in this episode, maybe don't watch that one.

Hannah Diviney
It was funny because my mom actually was there on the day. She wasn't in the room, but we filmed up in Newcastle, up at Merriweather bards, and I needed a carer, so my mum came to Newcastle. She sat in the car while we did what we needed to do, and then came down and joined, joined us, but yet they were all very aware that, like, this is what I'm doing. And interestingly enough, like, obviously my family was super supportive and came to the premiere. So they're watching it at the same time as I'm watching it for the first time, and they were sitting behind me so, like their eyeballs were like, lasers in the back of my head and I'm just sitting like, please be okay with this. But I think both of my parents are pretty practical people, like they they're like, you're an adult. You're making decisions for yourself. This representation is important. You've always wanted it like it and it's also much bigger than you, not to mention like it was done perfectly safely, like everyone was taken care of. No one was taken advantage of in any way. What do you think are some of the surprising or maybe unknown aspects to filming intimate scenes in terms of just accessibility and stuff like that, talking about blocks and blocking so I don't know if you were in the room on the day. I can't remember if you were there or not. So PJ's character, Elliot, is meant to carry my character Sarah, in and she's supposed to sit on this like bench thing. And I remember them wanting to sit me on the bench, and me being like, I can't sit on that if you don't give me something to lean against, like, otherwise I'm going to be like, just splayed out like a star fish

Madeleine Stewart
which is how I like to do it.

Hannah Diviney
But it was also really important, like, emotional beat of the scene, that PJ's character had to be the one to lie me down. So we had to start in sitting. So they had to build me like a little thing to lean against, made of like, kickboards and masking tape and stuff, because that was what was in the lifeguards office. Obviously

Alistair Baldwin
The sexy, dusty lifeguard office.

Hannah Diviney
Yeah, so you won't see it in the show, but when I'm sitting on the on the bench, there is actually something behind me keeping me propped up. And then there were, there were other things, like, obviously, when I'm lying down, it's making sure that, like, I'm actually lying flat and I'm, like, on the thing, I'm not gonna, not gonna accidentally fall off, like, and also, like, PJ getting on to the thing that we were filming on, it isn't gonna disrupt things. And then there's things like, well, how far can you stretch, like, certain muscles, like, what's comfortable if we're showing these two characters having sex, like, where are you putting your legs so that you're not like, dying in between takes?

Alistair Baldwin
Well, I think that's like a very true thing, where every disabled person is different when it comes to their access needs. And I think abled people probably have conceptions of like, well, you must be an expert in sitting where it's like, okay, but you buckled in and you've got a backrest

Hannah Diviney
And I have these laterals that hold that hold in my side. Like, I remember when I was filming Audrey, the movie that I did, they had a scene where they had me sitting on a bed, and I was just sitting on the bed, and I went, Yeah, I can't do that. And they had to basically build, like, this thing with pillows. And the DOP, the director of photography, was like, you can't move it. And I'm like, Yes, because I keep but I remember

Alistair Baldwin
is there something wrong, you keep moving

Hannah Diviney
The director was so and she was so sweet about it, but she was so confused when I was like, I can't sit. And she was like. Yeah, what do you what do you mean? You can't sit? You sit all of the time. And I was like, oh, no, I know, but I can't sit by myself.

Alistair Baldwin
Yeah, not the way you need me to sit for the shot

Hannah Diviney
for the shot that you want. It's not it's not working, yeah

Madeleine Stewart
Because this scene was so big and so important, and in fact, a lot of your work on screen is very important, very big for advocacy. Has anyone reached out to you to let you know how it's impacted their lives, or how you've helped them? Does anyone stick in your mind?

Hannah Diviney
I've had some really beautiful messages, kind of from across the spectrum. I mean, I get a lot of messages from parents who will say I'm so glad that my kid, who is like only little and is kind of growing in growing up and growing into being disabled, will have you to look up to. And I'm so glad that when it comes to conversations around like sex and intimacy like I'll be able to show them like, come as obviously you're not showing you five year old, no,

Alistair Baldwin
Ma, 15, plus

Hannah Diviney
Maybe even R. But then I've also had some people say, like, much older people say, like, oh, we cried watching that because it's the first time we've seen ourselves represented, or it's the first time we've been able to say to someone else in our life, you know, that feeling that that character was talking about all that thing that that character went through, that's what it's like, yeah? And like, Finally, having a frame of reference for people to be like, Oh....

Madeleine Stewart
I think that's what people crave, yeah. The reference to be like, Oh, it's like that. And sometimes when you watch things, you're like, oh, that's what I feel. I'm so glad they've said that, because you've cracked the code.

Alistair Baldwin
But I mean, you talk about feeling a little unprepared, but the fact that it was the first, like, Australian drama sex scene featuring someone with a visible disability, everyone was new to this, because we were breaking ground in a way where, like, I don't think we could have found anyone who wouldn't have been sort of doing something they've never done, because it's something the industry really never does.

Hannah Diviney
I haven't had a lot of experience in or really any experience in dating and that sort of stuff. So doing all of that for the first time on camera, playing pretend when it obviously wasn't real. I mean, in the sense that, like we weren't doing the things that, yeah, we were doing on camera

Madeleine Stewart
Screen Australia would never sign off.

Hannah Diviney
No, that might be pushing the envelope a little too far

Alistair Baldwin
but there was real intimacy.

Hannah Diviney
There is, of course, real intimacy and touch, but it is very weird to be like, cut. Oh, wait, like that scenes over and when teenagers are figuring out stuff about intimacy or navigating firsts with each other, that wasn't happening for me and it didn't feel like it was going to so that was a box that I would have liked to open, but had kept pretty far in the back of the brain, just for my own survival, I guess, yeah, and I think as well, it's a really interesting stereotype that we have where, when people would be talking about their future partners as teenagers or like trying to spit ball like, what Would someone's future partner look like? People would always just automatically assign me another disabled person, yeah, which I found really interesting, but also confusing, because I was like, Well, hang on a minute. Why do they have to be disabled? And when people would kind of try and answer that, you know, there'd been kind of a lack of eye contact, all that sort of stuff, and they'd be like, Well, it'd be easier. And I'm like, easier for for who, yeah, easier for me, easier for them, or easier for the invisible, able bodied person in this scenario, who then doesn't have to adjust their life to date either one of us?

Alistair Baldwin
Yeah, it's very revealing that they're coming from a place of like, well, I wouldn't want to do it, so let's just keep it segregated. But it's like, yeah, easier. Who's gonna, you know, reach the tin tomatoes at the top of the shelf. You need a tall in any relationship.

Hannah Diviney
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't count it out. I mean, I'm never going to say never. But for me, the idea of having a disabled partner doesn't work for very simple reasons, like reaching the tinned tomatoes or teaching a kid to play soccer or tying shoes or.

Hannah Diviney
the physical intimacy side of things would be complicated before you even get to, like, the R rated stuff. It's just, yeah, how do you do that? So for me

Alistair Baldwin
And I'm gay, so it would just never work with us, unfortunately, we are incredible platonic friends. Speaking of those kind of stereotypes I'm keen to hear about any of the representation that you were sort of seeing before you were creating it yourself. Like, what do you think of the media representation of disabled people and specifically their sexuality and their love life?

Hannah Diviney
There wasn't any really and I don't just mean that like here in Australia, I mean, across the board, I think the first time I saw a disabled character on screen that I can really remember was probably Artie Abrams from Glee. And I remember being so excited as like an 11 year old kid, because I was like, Oh, this guy dances, he sings. He's got friends, he's got like, romance happening, like Annie's in a wheelchair. This is amazing. And then I think it's like Season Two. Maybe there's burned into my mind.

Alistair Baldwin
It's to safety dance.

Hannah Diviney
There's a dream there's a dream sequence to safety I'd

Alistair Baldwin
It's to safety dance.

Hannah Diviney
There's a dream there's a dream sequence to safety I'd forgotten that it was specifically to safety dance, but that somehow makes it so much worse

Alistair Baldwin
I love that song, but it's forever tainted because

Hannah Diviney
He like he gets out of his wheelchair and starts to dance, and I remember just like my stomach dropping and being like, Oh,

Alistair Baldwin
this actor isn't disabled, too

Hannah Diviney
Cool. So he's wearing my identity like a costume. And then I started becoming more aware of the fact that that is the norm in Hollywood and in representation. I mean, there's actually a name for it. It's called cripping up, which is the idea that an able bodied actor is making something of a shortcut to success for themselves, because they play a character with a disability, and that requires a level of physical, emotional, psychological transformation that often wins them Academy Awards, Like the ratio of people who have who have won Academy Awards for playing disabled characters but been able bodied compared to the three people throughout history.

Alistair Baldwin
Hannah, thanks for coming on the show. Everyone watch Audrey, watch latecomers

Hannah Diviney
And pass me a new thing.

Madeleine Stewart
Yeah. Follow the Hannah Diviney train. Let's follow on Instagram

Alistair Baldwin
Get in early like I did.

Madeleine Stewart
So our next guest is Nathan Borg. He is one of Australia's most recognisable deaf actors on our screens. Nathan has worked in many short films and commercials, and has also starred in neighbors, which totally makes sense, because he's so classically good looking, and because it's a podcast, we have to tell you that you just need to know that he's very handsome

Alistair Baldwin
Throughout this interview, our guest, Nathan Borg, will be interpreted by Auslan interpreter. Dan Hately

Nathan Borg
Hello, everyone. I'm so excited to be here

Alistair Baldwin
Now Nathan, you made neighbors history by being the first actor with a cochlear implant. But in general, Australia's TV representation for deaf people is very lacking. Why do you think that is?

Nathan Borg
Well, I think in Australia, it's we're still quite slow when representing diversity. We all know that. I think it's also interesting, because with neighbors, I had to make contact with them to make something actually happen. I felt as though, from what I'd already seen on TV, people in production hadn't yet thought about that representation in terms of disability actors, we sometimes have to make that effort to enable it to happen in the first place.

Madeleine Stewart
Actually heard you weren't the first Deaf character on neighbors. They had a deaf character before you. Is that correct?

Nathan Borg
Yeah, that's right. There was a person using Auslan in one scene. Then over time, we just didn't see it again. And then I think production changed over time, and it was interesting, because finally, neighbors did have a bit more diversity happening. But I do remember, actually, when I made contact with them, I said, Look, why is there no disabled actors on screen? And they said generally to me, you know, everyone's welcome, but I'm thinking, where's the disability representation that we see in other TV series? I mean, there's some, but I guess there isn't enough in terms of representing the general community. It was just a really interesting process when I had that conversation with them.

Alistair Baldwin
Now, obviously, being on neighbors has made you incredibly high profile. You're a great get for this show. And of course, you've also recently appeared in an underwear campaign. Very hot, very hot. I think we were both talking earlier and what is that like? I guess, has that affected dating and sex for you being, I guess a celebrity who, certainly, in terms of the underwear campaign, has bared a lot of flesh?

Nathan Borg
The Deaf community were finally seeing me in my underwear. You know, my community seeing me in that way.

Well, I think it was interesting, actually, because I didn't feel sexy, I was still like learning how to be sexy and how I can feel good about myself. And I think as well, like, I think with work, being disabled, being deaf and feeling sexy, you know, I felt like I was still learning in terms of that confidence. So when the first commercial came out for the underwear and me signing in this ad, it was really good, because I sort of started to feel like, yeah. Everyone on set was like, come on. Nathan, you know, giving me all these compliments. I did feel sexy over time. And I was a bit nervous, of course, because when it was released,

But I think over time, what was interesting for me was like dating and, you know, online presence people saying, wow, I've seen you in your underwear. And I remember one time, actually quite funny.

I was on Smith Street. You know, of course, it's a well known area for our queer community, and one guy yelled out at the top of his lungs. He's like, Oh, look at this. The bonds guy, how sexy is he? And I was so embarrassed, I completely blushed, and I didn't know what to do. I was like hi that's fabulous. Do you think there is something about the lack of representation of sexy, deaf characters, which is maybe...

Madeleine Stewart
Speaking more about neighbors and about deaf characters being presented. You know, neighbors has a lot of themes of love and lust in their show. Like, is this? Is this a conversation like, how do you feel about being that representation? And did you have conversations with them about, like, how it was represented, and things like that?

Nathan Borg
Exactly and I think that's why I felt like I wasn't sexy enough. And I think specifically, really in the gay community as well. I felt like I wasn't sexy enough for the gay community, and I think for myself, I was feeling like because I'm deaf and also I'm gay, and when you're at gay events in the community, you often think that about yourself. Am I enough? You know. But over time, I realised that I needed to stop that thinking and just be and just enjoy myself and know that I am sexy enough. But yeah, I think one thing that was great about the bonds work was that it actually did help me recognise and realise looking at myself. Yeah, I do feel sexy

Yeah. Well, we had conversations actually about Deaf stories, but also about non deaf stories, just showing that people with a disability, whether you're deaf or whatever you might have, that we're just humans. We have drama, we have love, we have interesting lives. There was one story that was a gay romance narrative, and that was really interesting, because I was like, Finally, they're showing love with my character. And it was really interesting because, of course, the other actor wasn't deaf, they were hearing. So it was interesting to see like, Okay, we've got a person with a disability, a person with a non disability, non non disabled character, how they come together and how they, you know, experience love. And I think that story got released during pride month, actually, and that was really nice. And I should say, the sad thing is, though, that they broke up because one of them decided to be with a woman. So I was like, Oh, my God, you serious?

Madeleine Stewart
That is such a neighbor's storyline, if ever I heard one

Nathan Borg
I know, I know

Alistair Baldwin
And well, I mean, rip neighbors is at an end, although I feel like it's ended about 10 times, so you never know. But I think looking forward, there still seems to be a lot of hesitation about bringing deaf stories to Australian screens and bringing authentically deaf actors into those roles. Where do you think that hesitation, or even fear is coming from, from like the abled hearing people in charge.

Nathan Borg
Look, I think it's interesting, because I'm sort of still learning too about what's been happening. For example, in the past, there'd be like the casting director saying, Yeah, okay, your time will come, like disabled queer actors, you know, your time will come, kind of thing, and it'll happen. It's just about time. And then now I'm feeling like, hang on, that's been told to me, like over multiple occasions, like over the past three years. And I feel like, well, if you add, you know, like the crickets sounds.

It's sort of like, hello, I'm still waiting. What do you actually mean? Time will come? Like, when is that? Is it in 50 years? Or, like, what do you actually mean by that? I think that's interesting, seeing that play out. And there's been sort of no real action. Like, where are the actors? Where are these narratives and stories appearing on our screens? And, like heartbreak, high, say, for example, or invisible boys or bump even, like we see diversity being represented, which is great, but sometimes I see that and I think, well, where's the deaf actors?

Where are the deaf actors representing that lust and sexiness, right?

Madeleine Stewart
Do you think that Deaf culture brings, like, a different kind of richness and perspective to intimacy and connection, like things that mainstream folk maybe just don't even think about.

Nathan Borg
Absolutely, I think Deaf people are better than hearing people in bed. So Okay. And Well, I think it's funny, because, like with myself, I'm always with, been with hearing men, and that's interesting, because I sort of got to share my access needs in a way, like I look, I can communicate in the dark, but it's difficult for me to understand what's happening. And it can be awkward, because if they the man, like, he touches my ear, then my cochlear implant falls off. And then like, Oh, what's that? I'm like, Oh, it's my cochlear implant, you know, just chill. You can see automatically, like, what the hell's going on? So good to, like, reassure them, and then at that moment, they realise I'm Deaf. And can be interesting, because in the past, I've been with the Deaf or Deaf people, and when the lights are out. Obviously, I can't see the communications. I can't see their hands. I can't see what they're saying to me. I'm like, Oh, what do you want? You know? What do I want, right? So it's a completely different process, which is interesting. Whereas when I'm with a hearing person, there can be some level of communication, but intimacy, I think, really important for deaf people, because we really like to maintain eye contact, of course, when we're communicating, whether it's lip reading or sign language, so it's always nice to have some soft light when you're being intimate, which I think brings a nice element.

Madeleine Stewart
Yeah, honestly, if you looked me deep in the eyes with soft light, I would fall in love with you. I know I'm not your target audience, but I'd go for it.

Nathan Borg
Lol. Well, actually, hang on. I think it's funny actually, because when I'm with like, hearing guys, if I can speak, I can speak in English, but when I'm with a Deaf person, it's different. You've got to sort of stop and then use your hand, so you have to stop everything, to raise your hands and talk, and then once you done, you can go back to what you're doing. You can't just sort of do it in the moment. You know what I mean,

Alistair Baldwin
Right? You're not like, you can't sign within someone and just hope that they can feel it from the outside in

Nathan Borg
Exactly you got it.

Alistair Baldwin
There's no Auslan fisting intersection that we're talking about today.

Nathan Borg
Well, actually, I should say, Well, yeah, actually, one time I was on Grindr and there was a guy going, Hey, I've seen in your photos, you got a cochlear implant. I'm like, yeah. And he goes, Well, I thought he's gonna say something negative, right? And he's like, Oh no, actually, I really want your cochlear implant to be put into my asshole. And I'm like, what? Honestly, I was like, What is going on here? I blocked him instantly from that. I was like, I'm not gonna answer that. Like, goodbye.

Madeleine Stewart
That goes in your ear. No!

Nathan Borg
I know. I know, right? And I was just a bit like, Hmm, okay, if you wanted to give me 10,000 for my cochlear implant, cool, let's do it, but the same time. No, no, thanks.

Madeleine Stewart
I'm gonna finish up with one important question, and I feel like we might have already gotten there with Deaf people are the best in bed. But what is one myth or assumption about people who are Deaf and sex?

Nathan Borg
I think sometimes get a shock if I or a Deaf person goes to like a night club or goes to a sex party or these different kinds of events, right? And people like, oh, hang on, oh, deaf people actually come to these things. And it's like, of course, you know, we do. I think that's a really interesting myth or assumption. And it's almost like people don't believe that a Deaf person would go to something like them until they see it themselves. And like, oh, okay, there are people with a disability out there in the community, right?

Madeleine Stewart
Why do you why do they think they wouldn't, you wouldn't go to something like that? Is it like access requirements, or do they think that disabled folk are just so pure of heart and just complete virgins who would never even think about sex, let alone do it?

Nathan Borg
Yeah, I think that's exactly it. And I think it's also interesting, because all those kind of events are actually really dark, so it is really hard for me to lip read and communicate. And I think normally what I'll do is ask someone if I can type on my phone and we can communicate in that way. And yeah, it's just really different. I think it's always a different approach from other people in.

Nathan Borg
How they might want to communicate, but yeah, everyone's reaction is really different.

Madeleine Stewart
Thank you so much. Nathan

Alistair Baldwin
Thanks for coming on the show.

Nathan Borg
Thanks for having me.

Madeleine Stewart
Thank you for sharing so much with us. We've loved every second of it.

Nathan Borg
Yeah, me too. Love you both.

Madeleine Stewart
What an incredible episode we've had. Alistair. These are my favorite guests.

Alistair Baldwin
Oh my god, what was your highlight?

Madeleine Stewart
I really love Nathan. Nathan's fantastic. Can't remember a word he said. I was just lost in his eyes the whole time. All I could see was the bond commercial the whole time.

Alistair Baldwin
I mean, very, very compelling ad for underwear. And Nathan was so interesting. I've loved hearing everything he was talking about. Experience reaching out to neighbors himself, saying there should be representation.

Madeleine Stewart
Go out and get what you want

Alistair Baldwin
And talking to Hannah about latecomers. I mean, it was just such a privilege of my career to be part of that, and Hannah speaks so eloquently about the impact of what that show, and in particular, that very sexy sex scene did, yeah, for the industry, what an amazing episode we've had today.

Madeleine Stewart
Couldn't agree more.

Alistair Baldwin
Well, that's been today's episode of love without limits. Thanks for listening.

Madeleine Stewart
This has been love without limits, hosted by us Madeline Stewart and Alistair Baldwin

Alistair Baldwin
And produced by Eliza Hull in partnership with SBS and attitude foundation. SBS team is Joel supple and Max Gosford, recorded at Session in Progress.