Speaker 1 00:04
With information on the latest developments in assistive technology and initiatives, from the studios of 2RPH in Sydney, RPH Australia brings you AbleQuest.
Speaker 2 00:19
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Speaker 1 00:21
Hello, I'm Barbara Sullivan. When we think about accessibility and inclusiveness, we usually consider shopping precincts, workspaces or entertainment centres. But what about attending and being part of a church community?
Speaker 1 00:36
Are churches accessible too? If you're a person with a disability, will you be welcomed and feel like you fit in, or find the whole experience a bit daunting? Of all public venues, churches are places of belonging and support.
Speaker 1 00:51
Today's guest is Beck Baines, who works in Disability Ministry in and around Sydney. With personal and family experience of disability, Beck believes accessibility is more than providing ramps and hearing loops, but encouraging ministry teams to make all people feel welcomed and with work accessibility ministry advisor.
Speaker 3 01:19
So back before we get into your role as an accessibility advisor, can you explain what YouthWorks is?
Speaker 2 01:27
So YouthWorks is an organisation that seeks to see an effective youth and children's ministry in every church. So how that's done is through a variety of ways. A Bible college for training and equipping people in ministry to young people and families.
Speaker 2 01:41
We have media and publishing. We have SRE and schools, conference centres, a gap year programme for school leavers. And what I'm part of is the ministry support team that meets with ministry staff and runs training and camps.
Speaker 3 01:54
So SRE, that's that special religious education.
Speaker 2 01:59
That's right, yes, special religious education in government schools.
Speaker 3 02:02
and it's part of the Sydney Diocese of the Anglican Church.
Speaker 2 02:06
That's right. We primarily support the Sydney Anglican churches, but we've also gone interstate and even international with the training and resources and the support that we have.
Speaker 3 02:16
So I've heard you describe your job as a dream job. What do you hope to achieve in this realm?
Speaker 2 02:23
Yes, some time ago, I think about 14 years ago, I started learning Auslan, so Australian Sign Language, and I thought to myself, I'd love to share the gospel with deaf people through sign. And then a few years later, I started working as a support worker in a disability service.
Speaker 2 02:39
And I thought, well, it's not just deaf people that need to hear the gospel, but also people with disability. The experience of my parents supporting people with disability, so I've got a foster brother and adopted brother with disability, just sort of seeing how their life, where lives are impacted by these young boys, I just really got such a passion for sharing the gospel, but also supporting families who are caring for people with disability.
Speaker 2 03:03
And so just through all those different experiences, I've been really feeling and seeing God at work in my life and preparing and equipping me to just share with churches how we can consider how to be more accessible for people with disability, and how we can move thinking from inclusion to belonging, whereby people with disability and their families, they can be at church knowing full well that they are loved, that they cared for, and they are a contributing factor to the church community.
Speaker 3 03:33
So it's a lot more than getting the steps right, getting the lighting right, making sure that people can hear.
Speaker 2 03:41
Yes, it's stepping more into the culture and the community of the church.
Speaker 3 03:47
Do you think churches have lagged behind making people feel with disabilities feel accepted?
Speaker 2 03:54
I think so, and I don't think that's necessarily intentional. I think it's just not quite knowing what to do or having the experience. Often people can be a bit fearful about doing the wrong thing or how do I teach someone with an intellectual disability or how do I help someone navigate a sensory overload?
Speaker 2 04:12
Yes, churches have had a bit of a harder job of creating inclusive environments, but more so from a lack of awareness and understanding. And particularly as culture has changed over time, you used to have people with disability kept in group homes and isolated in some ways, but we're moving more and more to integrated society and people with disability being in and amongst everyone.
Speaker 2 04:38
People just learning, actually, how do I do that? How do I create spaces that are inclusive and welcoming to people?
Speaker 3 04:45
So do you think there are attitudinal barriers? That's more of a problem than physical barriers like making the steps, putting proper ramps in and putting wide doorways in.
Speaker 2 04:55
Yeah, there's a bit of a saying that goes, it's not the unwelcoming stairs, as in the steps up, it's the unwelcoming stairs, the viewpoint. People don't quite know what to do, and I've heard it been said before that people struggle with knowing how to connect with people with disability, because it kind of shines a mirror on their own weaknesses and their inability to know what to do next.
Speaker 2 05:16
So sometimes I think people really do shy away from knowing how to support and just connect with people with disability. So hopefully that's where I come in and give confidence and empowerment and understanding in that way.
Speaker 3 05:29
So what kind of practical steps can churches take to be more inclusive?
Speaker 2 05:33
So there can be some pretty basic things to get started with. I always think a good place to start is your church website. And so if you're not someone who runs the website, have a good look at it and offer some support.
Speaker 2 05:43
And what I think is good for a church website is that churches advertise their service times and the service sermon series, which is great and good and do that. But I think we need to add in extra information.
Speaker 2 05:54
What is the accessibility in our church spaces? What are some photos that we can show about what the place looks like and what to expect when they get there? We can't quite expect someone with a disability to turn up to church and use a wheelchair and have confidence that they can access a building that was built so many years ago and not very accessible at the time of building.
Speaker 2 06:14
So advertise what you do have and also give space for people to share what they might need. Whether that is even as simple as, can we just make sure there's some cushions available to sit on or that there's extra printouts of the sermon notes, for example, as well.
Speaker 2 06:29
Thinking about seating is good. So if you've got a meeting space that has just individual chairs, being able to take out a couple of chairs and a space, maybe of someone's choosing so that they can sort of use their mobility aid, whether it's a wheelchair or a walkup, for instance.
Speaker 2 06:46
So they're not sort of feeling like you have to sit at the back or you have to sit to the side over there. So if you can take some chairs out just to create that space. But if you're working with pews, is there a possibility to remove a pew or two just to again create extra space for movement and people to feel like that they can sort of be part of the community of the service and not pushed out to the side.
Speaker 3 07:07
Can you tell us about some of the people living with disabilities who have been made welcome and not only been made welcome, want to stay for more than that first time at church?
Speaker 2 07:16
Yeah, so I had a meeting with a kids minister at one of the churches and they said they had a new family that came along and they had a young boy on the spectrum. And he seemed uncororporated with leaders.
Speaker 2 07:27
He often called out and didn't quite want to do what was kind of the thing that was happening at the time. And this kids minister was, I don't know what to do. How do I keep on encouraging and loving?
Speaker 2 07:37
And I just shared with her, it's going to take time and that's okay. Keep getting to know the boy. Keep finding out what his strengths are. What are the things he loves doing? How can we incorporate those into the ministry that he's part of?
Speaker 2 07:50
And then I met up with this person again. I thought, oh, how is that going on now with this boy? How are things going? She goes, oh my goodness. It's been so wonderful because there was a time when he went into a room, came straight back out again and I said, oh, what's up?
Speaker 2 08:05
What's going on? He goes, oh, the smell is overwhelming for me there. But then he just went, but you know what? I need to get back in that room and because listening about God is so much more important.
Speaker 2 08:16
What was the smell all about? I think it was the smell of young boys. A room full of young boys, sweaty and smelly kind of thing. And that was just triggering. It was just a lot to take in. People on the spectrum can get a sensory overload, whether that's through the brightness of a room or the sound or the smell or just even all at once that just hits people.
Speaker 2 08:36
And sometimes it can just be that one thing like just the body odor of people that go, no, I can't deal with this. But just even the fact that he was able to express that and communicate that he trusted the leader and he felt safe to share that.
Speaker 2 08:49
But then because of that went, you know what? It's more of a priority that I'm in the room than out of the room. And so I think that was really wonderful. And there was another time I met with a church team.
Speaker 2 08:59
There was the ministry team. There was a warden and there was the mum of two boys with disability. And it was a really good meeting for everyone to share their experience or their history of things or their dreams or their visions.
Speaker 2 09:12
And just for people to be on that same page. And you could just see this mum went, oh, I feel so heard and loved and there's intentionality now of a way forward. It's not just I'm fighting this battle on my own.
Speaker 2 09:25
She's feeling like everyone understands now what it's like to her to attend church with her children, but there is good intention for making them feel welcome and included.
Speaker 3 09:34
So Beck, I believe you have lived with the disability. It's hearing loss, isn't it, since you were a child?
Speaker 2 09:40
So when I was six months old, I got very, very sick, meningitis, my prognosis was not good at all. And by the grace of God, I was saved and made well again, but I had a hearing loss in one of my ears, so completely, completely dead.
Speaker 2 09:54
And then just from the age of about four, I think it was, I just kept getting ear infections in my other ear and losing my hearing over time until I was about a young teenager. So I got my first hearing aid for one of my ears when I was about 10 years old.
Speaker 3 10:09
And so you've got other family members with other challenges.
Speaker 2 10:12
Yeah, so I was starting to mention before that when I was about seven years old and we adopted a young boy who has Down syndrome, so he was six months at the time and now he's 27, still is at home, with my family.
Speaker 2 10:24
And then we had a six -year -old boy move in, this was one of us more, it's about 19, and he was on the spectrum and had a whole lot of other health problems as well. And so he moved in and lived with my family for about 10 years, I think.
Speaker 3 10:38
So you think these experiences have allowed you to understand or empathise and then be able to offer practical help to make churches more inclusive.
Speaker 2 10:47
I'd like to think so. It's certainly given me a lot of firsthand experience and insight. For me, for instance, what it's like having hearing loss, where I need to sit in the room and hear what's going on, even some little things I missed out on.
Speaker 2 11:00
So it's given me that kind of experience. It's also made me think through how do we teach the Bible to people with intellectual disability and also how to care for families who are raising a child with disability.
Speaker 2 11:11
So I've seen and been part of a few of those facets, for instance. And it's given me that insight to share with church ministers and leaders of things that they just might not have been aware of, that I can kind of shed some light on.
Speaker 3 11:23
I'm sure everybody at church wants to do their best for everybody because they mean the Bible teachers that you must love and care for one another.
Speaker 2 11:31
Yeah, for the most part, people do have good intentions. They understand there's disability in the world and how can we make the gospel known to all people of all nations. And so there can be some simple changes that you can do in your church services or your ministry program.
Speaker 2 11:47
You know, making sure that there's some good structure and routine, maybe there might just be a need for visual schedules because sometimes receiving information visually is a bit more effective than verbally.
Speaker 2 11:57
So if you find alternate, but also more than one way to deliver information, even providing alternate activities when there's another activity on. So in a kids or youth group, there might be a big run -around game and maybe some kids just want to sit in a group with others and draw or something like that and have some meaningful conversation there.
Speaker 2 12:19
Even in a church service, I know of people who listen far more effectively when they're able to draw or write, fidget with something in their hands. Even knitting, that's becoming a bit more of a thing now that people can bring their knitting in and that just helps them focus and listen as well.
Speaker 2 12:34
But I really think the biggest thing that everyone can do is to just slow down within themselves and take time and then get to know them, learn what their strengths and passions are and really just cultivate friendship with them and thinking through, you're not moving at the speed of yourself, but you want to move at a speed of love.
Speaker 2 12:56
So continue developing friendships, continue to delight in just being present together in the diversity that God has made us.
Speaker 3 13:04
That's great. So I understand that there are a few people in the Bible who have disabilities. Not everybody's got a perfect body, have they?
Speaker 2 13:10
No, that's right. I mean, the Bible talks a lot about the diversity in lots of ways. You've got people who are poor and slaves and free and all that sort of thing. Moses, who some disability scholars would believe he has a speech impediment, when God is saying, you know, go to Egypt and tell Farid, I let my people go.
Speaker 2 13:27
And Moses is saying, well, the reason is why he can't. And one of those reasons was, well, you know, I'm slow of speech. And so people believe he has a speech impediment. But we say that God actually is so much more powerful than our weaknesses or things that aren't working as usual with our bodies at work in him sharing the good news.
Speaker 3 13:45
It's been great to talk to you today before you go back. If listeners would like to find out more about youth works, how can they learn more?
Speaker 2 13:54
We have a website, it's just pure and simple, youthworks .net. And you can find out more information about me in the Ministry Support Team.
Speaker 3 14:01
And that was Beck Baines, who's the YouthWorks Accessibility Ministry Advisor. And if you'd like to hear this interview again, it will be available as a podcast on the two RPH website under AbleQuest and all major podcast apps.
Speaker 1 14:22
You have just been listening to AbleQuest, a program that looks at developments in assistive technology and initiatives. From Elaine Chontek and Barbara Sullivan, thank you for listening and goodbye till next program.
