Elly May Barnes

Anthea:
You are on 2RPH with Sideshow. This is Anthea Williams. And this month, I am thrilled to be joined by Elly-May Barnes. Elly-May is a musician, a singer, a songwriter, and a disability advocate. Elly-May, thank you so much for joining us.

Elly-May Barnes:
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so glad to be on here with you.

Anthea:
So Elly-May, you were in your first band when you were two years old?

Elly-May Barnes:
Yeah-

Anthea:
Can you tell us about that-

Elly-May Barnes:
... so I definitely peaked a little bit early. (laughs)

Anthea:
(laughs)

Elly-May Barnes:
But, um... Yeah, no. So I was in a band with my- my siblings and we- we did a Christmas album. We actually beat Michael Jackson on the charts. Um-

Anthea:
Are you serious?

Elly-May Barnes:
Yeah. I've got- got one that my dad (laughs) gave me in a frame. Um, and we are number 1 and Michael Jackson's Dangerous is number 3. Um-

Anthea:
Oh my goodness. That is so cool-

Elly-May Barnes:
Right? As a huge-

Anthea:
... and you guys are [inaudible 00:01:02], right-

Elly-May Barnes:
... Michael Jackson fan, I was, obviously, treasuring that because he is incredible. (laughs)

Anthea:
Well, that makes sense because I have seen the red leather jacket so that does scan.

Elly-May Barnes:
(laughs) Yeah, yeah. It tracks. (laughs)

Anthea:
Awesome. And then you started touring with your dad, who I should say, is Jimmy Barnes-

Elly-May Barnes:
Yeah.

Anthea:
... when you were 12 years old.

Elly-May Barnes:
Yeah. So it's... I've- I've been doing it a little while now, this whole music business. But, um, it's just the best thing, like, singing with my dad. He's one of my favorite people in the world. And to sing with family, I think there's just something really special about that, um, and feels really magical.

Anthea:
Yeah.

Elly-May Barnes:
Mm-hmm. But, um... But then, I had to go solo eventually because, you know, um, I- I wanted to do some- something different and something on my own.

Anthea:
Yeah. And your first album came out last year and it's called No Good.

Elly-May Barnes:
It is called No Good. Yeah. Mm-hmm. That's my... That's my record. Um, (laughs) but yeah, I'm- I'm- I'm so proud of- of No Good and- and, um, it was something that I shied away from as someone with a disability. I, um... I didn't really see that many people fronting rock bands and things, um, uh, in my experience but I- I wanted to just put myself out there and see if anyone else could relate to any of- of it or any of the sounds I was making, I guess. Um, but I think, um, the way that I feel I can advocate is by just being visible and by- by doing what I love, um, unashamedly. (laughs)

Anthea:
Yeah. I think that's so true. You know, in our community we so often say, "You can't be what you can't see," so-

Elly-May Barnes:
Mm-hmm.

Anthea:
... putting yourself out there is one of the best things you can do for other members of the community and I love your album so much. Like, I'm not a muso so I don't wanna describe it. But I think it's got an amazing mix of rock and pop and it's... You know, it's-

Elly-May Barnes:
It's a bit of a roller coaster, isn't it? (laughs)

Anthea:
Yeah. It's fantastic. Now, when did you start writing music?

Elly-May Barnes:
Uh, lis... I think it, you know, really... I always wrote little poems and things as a kid. But I think I started trying to actual- actually write songs in my teens with... Around my friends and family and stuff. So everyone who's worked on this record has been, you know, around the family for a really long time or in the family. Um, like, um, my Uncle Mark produced half the record, my dear friend, Shane Nicholson, who, um... He used to be married to Kasey Chambers and he's an incredible producer and songwriter and he worked with me on a lot of it. And then, with the incredible Neil Finn, fellow Kiwi of yours.

Anthea:
Yeah.

Elly-May Barnes:
Um, you know, the fact that Neil wrote a song was so special, um, and just having everyone I kind of grew up with. And Davey Lane from UMI who's just so talented and sweet. He's the sweetest man in rock and roll. And, um, just writing with all these people that I was so comfortable with who knew me so well, um, it just made it all these different little parts of me, um, and parts of how I've grown up musically as well.

Anthea:
Yeah, yeah. It's a beautiful album and- and, absolutely, there's so many amazing people who have worked on it. And, of course, you and your lyrics. Now, I know that you are the singer on that album but, um-

Elly-May Barnes:
Yeah.

Anthea:
... do you play any of the instruments as well? 'cause I know you're a musician.

Elly-May Barnes:
I only play instruments when I'm very far away from other human ears, um-

Anthea:
(laughs)

Elly-May Barnes:
... (laughs) because it's for the best. Um, but I... You know, I play guitar. I can play one Bob Dylan song or something and maybe a Dolly Parton number. But, um, nobody needs... It's not for public consumption. Um, and I have actually just started bagpipe lessons with my son. I'm-

Anthea:
Are you serious?

Elly-May Barnes:
Yeah. But it turns out, like, probably should have fine motor skills for that. But, um, we'll give it a go anyway because we are determined to be a mother-son bagpipe duo.

Anthea:
Awesome.

Elly-May Barnes:
Yeah. So I'm sort of doing that. But mostly, I just like to sing. That's my... That's my instrument and that's my kind of medicine. Uh, that's how I breathe when I'm in pain, you know? (laughs)

Anthea:
Yeah. So do you find that singing helps with pain?

Elly-May Barnes:
I do. Um, it can be hard to sing with spasm. But at the same time, it does help me to breathe when I find I'm not breathing properly. Um, it distracts my brain from- from the pain sometimes because I'm in constant chronic pain, which I'm sure a lot of people can relate to. Um, you know, just find ways of coping and music is one of those escapes or one of those kind of things that helps keep your mind off focusing on that pain.

Anthea:
Yeah. I- I completely understand where you're coming from.

Elly-May Barnes:
Mm-hmm.

Anthea:
I think, um, for me, having an artistic career that I really... Um, I'm so compelled by is really important-

Elly-May Barnes:
Mm-hmm.

Anthea:
... because it's a massive distraction from pain.

Elly-May Barnes:
Totally. 100%. And I think, like, a lot of people that I know who are living with some kind of disability or neurodiversity or whatever it is, um, are super creative because... For... Probably for that reason, needing that outlet as well.

Anthea:
Yeah. I think that's absolutely right. Yeah. Yeah.

Elly-May Barnes:
Um, so it's a pretty cool, like, community to be a part of as far as, like, what everyone is actually capable of, um, artistically.

Anthea:
Yeah. Absolutely.

Elly-May Barnes:
And I saw that a lot in Headliners, I think. And it was just like me wanting to take everyone with me and just give everyone a platform, because there were so many incredible musicians. And that's just in music. (laughs)

Anthea:
So I wanna talk a little bit more about Headliners, just in case we have any listeners who haven't list... Uh, who haven't watched it.

Elly-May Barnes:
Mm-hmm.

Anthea:
Headliners was an amazing show that was on the ABC. Elly-May, rather than me talk about it, you should explain the show to our listeners 'cause it was your baby.

Elly-May Barnes:
Okay. Yeah. Well, it sort of just, like, it all happened very quickly. We were just having conversations but I've always had this- this... You know, I've been lucky, as you said, since I was two years old, to have a platform from which to make music and- and a family that supported that journey and supported me physically through it. Um, but, you know, I recognize that privilege in myself and having that platform. And once I put myself out there more, um, and spoke more about my experiences with disability, um, the more I found that maybe I would be able to create another platform for other artists with disability. So that's sort of the thing from which Headliners was born.
But the concept was basically that we- we heard from musicians all around the country of all kinds and, um... And formed two bands of musicians living with disability and we had seven weeks to get them ready to play for 15,000 people. Um, and spoiler alert, they are amazing. (laughs) But it was just incredible and just going on that journey was, like, a massive learning situation for me. But also, just getting to know these incredible humans and musicians and just knowing what we're all missing out on because places aren't accessible. And being able to start that conversation, I think, a bit more.

Anthea:
Yeah. Absolutely. You know, one thing that really struck me while I was watching Headliners is there's moments where musia... Musicians arrive to audition and they get up on the stage. And even that is such an emotional moment, because there's a ramp-

Elly-May Barnes:
Mm-hmm.

Anthea:
... and they can get up on the stage.

Elly-May Barnes:
Right.

Anthea:
Um, and-

Elly-May Barnes:
It's huge and it just is not a thing that is talked about enough at all.

Anthea:
Yeah. And so many venues are in basements or in second storeys. And, of course-

Elly-May Barnes:
Mm-hmm.

Anthea:
... you know, some... For some members of the disability community, that's fine. But for other members of the disability community, it's absolutely not.

Elly-May Barnes:
It's completely isolating and it's, um... It's really difficult. And the thing is, that a lot of venues and things, they really want to help as well and it's about being able to have those conversations with kindness and, like, openness. And then, putting them in touch with the right people. Because I mean, there are grants and things for all of these things. It's just venues don't know where to begin when it comes to, you know, getting things right with accessibility.
So I think the more the conversation is had between people, um, the more it'll get out there and the more we can kind of make those changes. Because also, accessibility will eventually... Though, it currently doesn't affect everyone, it will eventually affect everyone to some degree, um, be it through sickness or- or injury or old age. So I think, you know, it's definitely something that needs to be addressed a little bit more.

Anthea:
Yeah. Absolutely. And I noticed that when you were, um... When you were on tour with Headliners and, you know, you were going out to the festival, the green room was accessible, the stage was accessible.

Elly-May Barnes:
Mm-hmm.

Anthea:
How did that go with the festival and then with the producers of the television series? Did they learn a lot by going through that process with you?

Elly-May Barnes:
Yeah. I think everybody... We all learned a lot in all different ways. But I think that I... You know, the TV thing... Part of accessibility was not using the same formulas that reality TV often uses, um, as well. Rather than just the physical things and- and having breakout spaces that we can go to if it's too much or having a deal that, you know, some moments, cameras didn't need to be there for if somebody was perhaps overwhelmed.
Um, but also, the conversation with the festival, like I said, it was done kindly and with great advice. And- and we had, um, Paul Nunnari who was advising on the accessibility. And, you know, he has his little measuring tape and he'll tell you how wide door frames need to be or toilets should be to be able to turn around in a wheelchair and things like that. Um, which I'm no expert in but, you know, I've had my own personal experiences.
But, um, having somebody with that knowledge is- is really important and I think having an expert like that and then having the festival so willing to accommodate. And not only just the television but they- they did it... The same again. They had the Headliners back this year and accomm... And- and, you know, accommodated everybody's needs. Um, uh, because I told everyone they've set, like, a standard and- and they were able to do that in the middle of the desert, um-

Anthea:
Yeah.

Elly-May Barnes:
... and with relative ease. And the thing is, there's often things like ramps and whatever that they're happy to organize to get a drum kit on the stage. But then, we have to get a human on there and it's a little bit tricky, is it? So I think that it's just not... That most people haven't thought of it or unaware, um... Or unaware of the benefits you could have from not just disabled artists but, you know, aging artists perhaps, um, or anyone with any kind of injury really-

Anthea:
Yeah.

Elly-May Barnes:
Concert guitarists, um, (laughs) for example, might have, you know, need for a ramp or something like that. But it's, um... It's... Yeah. It's sort of... I think it was really beautiful to see the- the cross-section of different people that responded to Headliners and that were willing to be open to conversation and to understanding something that they, perhaps, don't experience themselves.

Anthea:
Yeah. I think that's absolutely right. But I also have to say, watching that show, I think you lead so beautifully by example. Like, I- I really appreciated that moment in the first episode where the auditions are happening and your body was just in too much pain and you had to take a break. And I loved that we didn't... Um, you didn't edit that moment out of the series. You actually-

Elly-May Barnes:
Yeah. Well, that was a full conversation that we actually had, me and the producers, because they were concerned like that, uh... You know, they were worried that I would be uncomfortable having that out there. Um, but I said, "This is reality and this is also..." Like, "If I were to push through this and just struggle and pretend it wasn't happening, then what kind of example would I be setting for everyone who I wanna... Want them to know they don't need to push their body to these limits to be able to do what they love?"
And sometimes, you know, you do have to give yourself a break and- and ask others for help and things like that which, you know, I've been pretty stubborn about throughout my life, as I know a lot of people that I know living with disability are. And we just push through until we can't. But I don't think that that should be the norm. And I think that it was really important to have that vulnerability and that realness. Because also, in this day and age with social media, everyone is just pretending everything is perfect all the time. When in reality, most people I know are probably burnt out in some form or another. And we need to be able to come from that place of honesty and then move forward, I think?

Anthea:
Yeah. I think that's absolutely right and, um... Yeah. Just acknowledging that human experience is so important and I-

Elly-May Barnes:
Mm-hmm.

Anthea:
... I think, you know, in some ways, that was one thing that was kind of good about the pandemic. That suddenly, we were all working from home and we had to acknowledge that we were carers and we had to acknowledge that there were other things in our life. And, of course, work and-

Elly-May Barnes:
Yeah.

Anthea:
... is not the only thing going on for us. So I'm recording this from Sydney. And in about nine days time talking about Headliners, you are the headliner for the Sydney Fringe Festival for their Limitless Season and you are gonna be on at Bondi Pavilion on the 17th. Can you tell us about that?

Elly-May Barnes:
I believe it is the 19th. Um-

Anthea:
Oh, I'm so sorry.

Elly-May Barnes:
But, um... But that said, I'll be there. I could probably be there on the 17th, if they'd like. But, um... (laughs) But no, I- I am so excited to be part of- of Sydney Fringe. It's such an incredible honor, like I just... My cabaret is my distraction. It's like being in my neurodiverse brain, I guess. Um, a lot of glitter, pretty... Um, prettry rollercoaster-y as well. It's a different, um, kind of style normally to my... To my album. But, you know, all of my favorite songs or covers, you never know what's gonna happen. My piano player's often dressed like a spaceman with no context. Um, and I do like to emerge from a clamshell whenever possible-

Anthea:
Amazing.

Elly-May Barnes:
... or a giant Froot Loops box because I found out that I fit perfectly in a bicycle moving box. And when painted, it makes a very good cereal box (laughs) so-

Anthea:
That is amazing. So look, I-

Elly-May Barnes:
Mm-hmm.

Anthea:
... I have a little side hustle directing cabarets. I love cabaret as a form-

Elly-May Barnes:
Oh my god. Stop.

Anthea:
I know. So yeah, the more glitter, the more fun, the better.

Elly-May Barnes:
Yeah.

Anthea:
Um, tell me, I almost wore my what-would-Dolly-do t-shirt for you today-

Elly-May Barnes:
Oh, stop it. (laughs)

Anthea:
Yeah. I know you're a Dolly fan.

Elly-May Barnes:
I am-

Anthea:
Can you tell us some of the songs that you'll be singing or are you gonna-

Elly-May Barnes:
Yeah.

Anthea:
... leave that as a complete surprise?

Elly-May Barnes:
Well, one of my wigs is called Dolly so we have to do a few Dolly's. Um, my dog is actually called Dolly Porton.

Anthea:
Oh. (laughs)

Elly-May Barnes:
(laughs) Um, fun fact. She's very sassy. She is currently kicked out of the house so she doesn't bark at anyone who comes near us. But, um... But yeah, so I'll be doing... The Dolly I normally like to do, you know, 9 to 5. Um, Jolene's always a big hit. I... But I love Here You Come Again 'cause I love a dramatic lady with a key change-

Anthea:
Mm-hmm.

Elly-May Barnes:
... and, um... And I Will Always Love You is always an emotional rollercoaster as well. Um, because, you know, she wrote that and, obviously, made famous by Whitney Houston-

Anthea:
Yeah.

Elly-May Barnes:
... from The Bodyguard soundtrack but I- I like to do Dolly's version 'cause there's a little speaking bit- (laughs)

Anthea:
Yeah.

Elly-May Barnes:
... and I- I kinda like that. Um, and, um... So yeah, and- and I have done actually her song, D.I.V.O.R.C.E., um, (laughs) which is a Dolly Parton song about a divorce. (laughs) It's quite catchy but, um, I've only done that once or twice 'cause it really... It's not that well-known. (laughs)

Anthea:
Awesome. And when you do your cabaret, do you, like, talk to the audience as well and tell them stories? Is it that kind of cabaret or is it mainly just based on the music?

Elly-May Barnes:
Listen, anything could happen. Um, sometimes I'll tell stories because I can't help but have a little bit of a yap. Um, (laughs) but I- I mean, mostly I... For a while, I was def... I get quite nervous, you see? So for... At the beginning, I had a script and it would be like, "Hello, I'm Elly-May. Thank you." Um, (laughs) things like that. And now, it's just like... We sort of have some regulars and, you know, people will turn up with their own bubble machines because it's gotten quite out of hand, um, the cabaret.
Sometimes a mariachi band will turn up, um, and I'll sing in Spanish. I don't even speak Spanish. Um, unfortunately, they can't make it this time. But you never know who is gonna- gonna turn up at the cabaret or what's gonna happen or what people... Sometimes people in the audience make their own merch. We don't know. But I do like to sometimes give out bubbles and things to the audience. 'cause if I'm gonna dress up and wear light up things and whatever or put on a show, maybe they could at least blow some bubbles or something. Um, but, um, (laughs) it's always, like, a really fun, weird, inclusive kind of energy. Um, sorry. Um-

Anthea:
That is amazing. So yeah, I love that you have, like, an audience that comes back and back and back and, like, they add their own things in. That's like... It's like a Rocky Horror Picture-

Elly-May Barnes:
Mm-hmm.

Anthea:
... Show version of a cabaret.

Elly-May Barnes:
Yeah. All the weirdos can congregate in Bondi this time. (laughs)

Anthea:
Amazing. That's so cool.

Elly-May Barnes:
And it's accessible. The venue at Bondi Pavilion is accessible which is really exciting and great and, you know, should be standard as we've discussed. (laughs)

Anthea:
Yeah. It absolutely should be. It's a- it's a beautiful venue right on the beach there, heaps of parking. Um, and actually such a nice theater with, like-

Elly-May Barnes:
Yeah.

Anthea:
... super comfy seats as well-

Elly-May Barnes:
It's so comfy. I need to actually... I'm gonna have to go on a hunt for some more fun props, I think, just to make it even more unhinged. I like to call the show Glittery and Unhinged, um, and so I'm... I think it needs to escalate being that we're escalating to this beautiful theater.

Anthea:
Yeah. Amazing. And so, what's next for you after Syd- Sydney Fringe? What are you-

Elly-May Barnes:
Uh-

Anthea:
... up to for the rest of the year?

Elly-May Barnes:
I've been writing a little bit. I wanna write some more music with friends. I wanna, um, do some collaborations, I think, with some other great artists that I love. Um, and I've only really managed to play my record, um, twice in the... Because I've been so busy with Headliners and things like that. Um, and I'm also working on a little children's book project eventually which will... Is still in the early phases but, um, I just... You know, I never like to stop. I always have to keep going but, um...
But Fringe is really exciting. I mean, I love doing the cabaret. It's something that's a great source of, like, joy and release for me and... You know, it lets my inner drag queen out 'cause I love a good- good outfit change as well. Um, and just playing with my friends and- and it's very, very, very, like... We normally only prepare the first and last song of those. So it's really good kind of having that freedom to basically do any of this catalog of songs that we know. Um, and getting my friends up to see... You know, see them sing real close. (laughs)

Anthea:
That sounds absolutely amazing.

Elly-May Barnes:
Yeah. You'll have to come.

Anthea:
I will. I will absolutely come.

Elly-May Barnes:
Mm-hmm.

Anthea:
I'm coming to a couple of the Limitless events actually. Yeah. Sydney Fringe is fantastic. It has a, um... It has a board of people with disabilities who- who look-

Elly-May Barnes:
So incredible.

Anthea:
Yeah. Our, uh, access board and I'm... I've been part of that board for, uh, quite a few years now so I always... And, you know, I keep on finding that I'm working in other parts of Australia or even in New Zealand where the Sydney Fringe is on. But this year, I am here the whole time-

Elly-May Barnes:
Oh-

Anthea:
... so I'm gonna make the most of it.

Elly-May Barnes:
That's so good and it's like such... You know, so many incredible artists and shows and things and it's just... And experiences really. It's just, um... It's so cool to be a part of it.

Anthea:
Yeah. Amazing. Hey, Elly-May, thank you so much for joining me-

Elly-May Barnes:
Thank you so much. It's so lovely to chat to you.

Anthea:
I look forward to seeing you on the 19th at Bondi Pavilion.

Elly-May Barnes:
Yes, I'll be there. (laughs)

Anthea:
Thanks so much.

Elly-May Barnes:
See you then. Thank you so much.

Anthea:
You are on 2RPH with Sideshow. Liz Cooper, thank you so much for joining us. Tell me, what are you seeing and not seeing this month?

Liz:
Hi, Anthea. Thank you for having me. Well, this month, firstly, I'm gonna start with what I am seeing. What I am seeing is Embodied - A Deaf Perspective, an art exhibition that seeks to deepen connections between hearing and deaf communities. This will be shown at the Curl Curl Creative Space on the Northern beaches in Sydney. It will examine how our physical and emotional experiences are shaped by the people around us and how representations of identity and dialogue come to life in tangible and gestural forms. Audiences are invited not just to view the art, but to live it and feel it. This accessible and proud space will embody a deaf cultural story through the perspective of deaf artists and deaf creative expression. This will be at Curl Curl Creative Space on the Northern Beaches. It opens on Thursday, the 2nd of October, and runs until Saturday, the 11th of October. There is more details on the website.

Anthea:
That sounds lovely. Thank you. And what was it that you're not able to see?

Liz:
What I'm not able to see is Flesh Mirror, which is presented by Arts House and Melbourne Fringe as part of the Pulse. Flesh Mirror is a 60-minute performance which blends bodies with sound and video. It's a co-devised work by Weave Movement Theatre with artist Rebecca Jensen, Marco Cher, and Zoe Scoglio. Flesh Mirror centers disability as a site of power and imagination by exploring themes of identity and transformation with intimacy and expression. I kinda get spine tingles when I think of it. It sounds like a really exciting and engaging work.
Through the work, we will enter a portal where doppelgangers slip through, biographies, distort, and the everyday is transformed into something surreal. This work is showing from Wednesday the 8th to Sunday the 12th of October. But I also just wanted to shoutout to the rest of the Melbourne Fringe because there is a lot of incredible disabled-led shows right across that program. So I would really encourage everyone to jump on and see what grabs them. There's a lot of really fantastic shows at the Melbourne Fringe.

Anthea:
Yes. Absolutely. And The Fringe in Melbourne does a fantastic job at making their work accessible, particularly accessible digitally for people who maybe can't get to particular venues. So I highly recommend that people go and have a look at what's available. As always, if you look at our show notes, there are links to everything we've discussed today: Elly-May Barnes' show on the 19th as part of the Sydney Fringe, Embodied - A Deaf Perspective, Flesh Mirror, and I've also included a link to the digital shows available at the Melbourne Fringe. Now, to take us out, we have Elly-May Barnes with No Good.

MUSIC:
You thought you'd leave me behind.
You better start thinkin' again.
You thought I was dumb or blind.
I know, I know.
I'm out.
I'm out.
I'm outta the door.
My dust.
Eat it up, oh no.
You're no good.
You ain't nothin' to me.
Nothin' now and nevermore.
You're no good.
And I don't mind shoutin' from the rooftop, honey.
You're never gonna see me again.
See me again.
You think I am just a fool.
I guess you've been drinkin' again.
I tried not to lose my cool but here I go.
I'm out.
I'm out.
I'm outta control.
My dust.
My dust.
Eat it up, oh no.
You're no good.
You ain't nothin' to me.
Nothin' now and nevermore.
You're no good.
And I don't mind shoutin' from the rooftop, honey.
You're never gonna see me again.
You ain't nothin' to me.
Nothin' now and nevermore.
You're no good.
And I don't mind shoutin' from the rooftop, honey.
You're never gonna see me again.
You're never gonna see me again.