Body Image and Appearance

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Nothing's off limits, things off limits, bringing together experts and people with lived experience to discuss the topics we love to avoid, but absolutely need to talk about me with the support of Vision Australia and the NDIS information linkages and capacity building grant building grants.

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Hello and welcome to the series where nothing's off limits. My name is Polly and together with my co-host Tess over ten episodes, we're exploring some of those topics which we might usually consider off limits and discussing them openly and honestly and through the specific lens of blindness and vision with the help of expert guests.

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And there'll be more information at the end of the show about how you can catch this episode and other episodes of Nothing's Off Limits on the Vision Australia website.

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In this episode, we're talking about body image and appearance. What do we mean when we talk about body image? And how do you connect with that concept if you want primarily visual? What perceptions do you have of your own and others appearance if you are blind to have no vision? What messages are we sending through the way we present ourselves? And how do you find out what society's rules of what someone should look like are an exercise your right to follow or break those rules on your own terms? This is an emotive topic for those protests and me, and if you were affected by any of the issues in the show, please contact Lifeline on one three one one one four or the Butterfly Foundation, the national charity for all Australians impacted by eating disorders and body image issues, and for the families, friends and community to support them. Their national helpline number is one 800 three four six seven three. The way we dress and style our hair or makeup is one component of creating and expressing body image. Here at Vision Australia, we've done a number of projects to make the world of fashion more accessible, including partnering with Melbourne Fashion Festival to audio describe some ways. The interest in these has really debunked the perception that if you are blind or have low vision fashion and the way you look is not a priority to test this further, we asked you how much does appearance and body image matter to you?

02:08

S1

Nothing's off limits with Tess and Polly Polly. How much does appearance and body image matter to you?

02:20

S4

It doesn't personally matter much to me. It matters other people. And I think sometimes that's quite sad.

02:26

S5

When I'm walking around the house, I won't necessarily see in the hallway. Mirror is a big of jam on my lap or that I've got child related grot running down the front of my T-shirt. It's very embarrassing when somebody pointed out, and I guess I need to learn to be more open and receptive when people pointing this stuff out to me. Other than that, I don't think I smell too bad. Although a shower is never a relaxing experience for me, I'm always worried that I'm going to fall on the backside.

02:55

S1

Not too much. What's inside a person is what matters. Oh, probably a six or seven out of 10. I am. I like to look nice, but I'm not going to go crazy over it. It matters to me a lot because I like to present well in all different situations. Does being blind can make you more conscious of how you present yourself? Yes, definitely. And it's something that you learn as you get older. It's not something that comes to people naturally.

03:24

S6

It matters actually quite a lot to me, and I think it was when you're blind you because you don't see what other people look like. Sometimes it can be easy to have quite a distorted view of yourself because you can't see what's around you. You actually don't know where you often fit in the scheme of things. You know, you might think you're quite overweight, but you may not be well the other way around. You know, you might think that, you know, a certain something looks good on you. And I guess if you feel good, that's all that matters. But for me, it is quite important.

03:51

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Body image and appearance are really important to me, both my own and others that I'm

03:56

S5

with in the conventional sense. I'm a man in my mid-40s, so I've put on a few pounds. But actually in this country full of sunny, tanned people, I thin white and hairy, which is why they see me wear Arashi indoors at the swimming pool. In terms of that, in the context of sight. I wear sunglasses and I'm still a little self-conscious about it. But when you don't wear a set glass, you go, I'm going to a day just being me, not me wearing glasses. May you put on a pair of contact lenses whenever I stop to look at my phone, read a menu or squint at a bus stop. There's always some smart alec who comes up to you and says, Oh, you need glasses, mate. Like, I haven't thought of that before.

04:34

S7

I would say it matters quite a lot. I was born vision impaired. I have low vision when I was first learning to use a mobility cane and I found it very confronting the way people were reacting to me and nervousness, and I was getting a train with my cane. It's amazing. Man got onto the train. He was young, really beautifully dressed in like a three piece suit and a briefcase looked sleek and professional, and he was using a cane. I noticed that everyone was reacting very differently to him. He was using his cane very confidently, and he looked very much like he was successful in the world. And I was just really impressed by it made me think how much? It's great to be well dressed when your vision impaired for me anyway.

05:18

S2

Tess, you've graciously agreed to take off your hosting hat for a moment to share a story about your experience navigating body image. As a young woman who is blind when you were in your late teens, early 20s, you have quite a negative relationship with how you perceived your body.

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S3

Even when I was a younger teenager, 14 15, I didn't really like the way my body looked. I didn't think I was tall enough, slim enough. But it really took a toll when I was about 19. The year before, I'd taken some tablets to help me with hormone related difficulties and my body had undergone some changes. The time came that there was an event that I was going to, and I wore addressed. Various bits of my body was sort of not quite fitting into it, and I really did. I felt genuine repulsion and I just thought it is just because I don't look right. I'm too fat, I'm too I'm too swollen. I was also experiencing a lot of anxiety that that was I can't say it was unrelated, but it was at. The anxiety was about all sorts of aspects of my life, and I felt like the only thing I could really have control over was how much I ate or didn't eat. And so combining this repulsion with the way I looked and my need for control, I really started to engage in some fairly self-destructive behaviours, like starving myself periods, trying to make myself sick, trying to bloat myself in order to make myself sick. So it was something not right about my body, and the world was full of thin, beautiful women and I was not one of them. And therefore I wasn't fit to wear nice clothes. I wasn't fit to do anything except just try and make myself a little bit less horrifying. And that behaviour continued for a couple of years and tests.

06:54

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Some people might be curious as to how you have these pressures, perceived pressures around how you look and when you are yourself blind. What was driving them?

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Do you think I was feeling like I wasn't fitting into my clothes? There was a particular time where I wore a dress and my breasts had to be sort of, I guess we had to use a bit of tape because my breasts were too were too big. And then we're sort of coming out. I've always been interested in the visual world around me and wanting to know what my family and friends look like. And I suppose my perceptions of a lot of them were that they were tall and thin, that I was short and fat. It's hard because I couldn't look into a mirror. I couldn't really see what I looked like. All I could see was if I occasionally was brave enough to stand on the scales, and even though I was average weight, it didn't seem enough. And you know, so I'd I'd be pinching my waist to try and find out how I looked there or not. In my mind, I was squeezing handfuls of fat that manifested in, you know, starving myself, trying to make myself sick and. Also exercising a bit too much, Tess,

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I wish I could travel back in time and give your younger self just the

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biggest hug.

08:01

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How did you get through this?

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I through it. I had a lot of friends and family. I took me a couple of years to tell my family, but when they knew they were fantastic, I mean, my sister saw that I wasn't eating very much and that I would take any excuse not to eat. My family were living a few hours away, so they they want to know, and a few friends of mine knew, and they encouraged me to seek professional help. So I did that. I think I went to a support group with a friend. I think it was about six months after I started having these problems. For a couple of years, I had, you know, counselling on and off. Sometimes I would feel OK about my body and then I'd spiral. But then I got to about 23 24, and I just started to experience a more positive feel about my body. I stopped feeling quite so repulsed by it, and I started feeling like I was actually. This was the way I was meant to look. And I think it was as much the counselling and support and affirmation of family and friends that really helped me get there. By the time I was 23 24, I finally got to a stage. After all that support where I could be proud of my body, I mean, you know, I'm not, I'm not tall, but I'm not short. I'm not slim, but I'm not fat. I'm, you know, I'm curvy. But that was the way I was meant to be. And what you said about wishing you could give my 19, 20 year old self a big hug. I wish the same thing, and I wish that I could have heard a story like mine, and I hope that other young women who are struggling might hear this story because these days, you know, 10 years after I was having these problems, I like my body. I can see how I was meant to be this way, and I love food. I love enjoying food, and I know how unhealthy and how ill I was back then when I was what I might have called slimmer test.

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S2

Thank you so much. This really doesn't feel like something that gets talked about, particularly in this community, and it's pretty generous of you to share your experience and earnings.

09:47

S4

Thank you.

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If this program has brought up any issues for you, please contact Lifeline on 13, 11, 14 or online at Lifeline dot org dot AEW. The suicide call back service is one 300 six five nine four six seven or online at Suicide Call Back Service dot org. Today you there's beyondblue 1800 double to four, six, three six and online and beyond blue dot org dot. Hey you!

10:17

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And let's continue the conversation by bringing in our first guest. Courtney Nicky Courtney is a trained psychologist who works at Mission Australia for nearly 13 years in a number of capacities. Courtney, you've been listening in. What did you make of Tess's experience? There might be, I guess, a perception that this hyper awareness of your body or your image, if you're if you're blind, isn't that common? Is that your understanding?

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S4

Yeah, I think it's more common than most people realize. I mean, we're all getting messages as tested that we're not good enough from society through the media and through corporate advertising. But people with disabilities in particular are getting those messages and particularly about their body, and because people with disabilities can't necessarily avoid the stigma of disability. Sometimes we seek approval of our bodies in other ways. Our bodies are a tangible thing, and we're told that we should be able to control them and we force the lie that everybody is supposed to be the same. And unfortunately, that keeps us busy instead of doing what we actually want, what's good for us. And I think people with vision impairments just as likely to be influenced by these pressures as anyone else.

11:22

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And it was interesting tests you mentioned as well around your relationship with food. And obviously, we know food impacts how our body looks and how well it functions. But there's this whole raft of other roles that food plays in our lives, from social, cultural and emotional perspectives. Are there specific challenges around that if you're blind to have that vision?

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I'd definitely say that there are, especially if you're out. So when I when I wasn't particularly well, I'd go out to a to a birthday or I'd even go out with friends and they would all want to go, you know, to it, to a coffee shop or whatever. And you know, there were very few things that I feel like I could eat, and I would have to get them to read the whole menu and try and find something that you know that I could eat. That was healthy enough. But also if I was going out with friends and they all wanted to do something that related to food, I couldn't just say, Oh, you guys get something to eat, chaps, I'll I'll go, you know, I'll go and, you know, look around the shops when you get something to eat. So I did feel a sense of being a bit trapped in a bit anxious, which now I can see it. It's such a shame because as you say, poly food is such a social cultural thing. I mean, these days, I absolutely love food, all types of food, and I feel I find it's emotionally soothing. It's a wonderful thing to enjoy with friends, often with a glass of wine. But but yes, I do remember feeling quite quite trapped as somebody who was blind trying to find something that I that I could eat without, without feeling like I was blowing up by the second, but also feeling feeling trapped into it.

12:48

S2

Courtney, you've you've mentioned as well in previous conversations about how the idea about autonomy and agency when you're eating out. Something that isn't necessarily a given if you're blind.

12:57

S4

Yeah, that's right. As Test mentioned, you don't have to rely on other people to understand what's available to you. And when somebody provides you with that food, it's really a take it or leave it type prospect because you don't have that ability to browse in the same way that somebody whose voice on it has. And particularly if you've got dietary preferences as a vegetarian or vegan, I find that often my options are quite limited anyway. Yeah. So food plays many roles. Definitely. It's a form of comfort and pleasure. It's a way of exchanging love, as as mentioned. You know, when you're out with friends, you're often sharing a meal together or you're even giving gifts of food. It can be an opportunity to escape or take some time out from others, as well as any expectations you feel of being late on you. And it's a way of having choice and control, especially if you don't necessarily have choice and control in other areas of your life. So it makes a lot of emotional needs. But as testers is also mentioned, unless the relationship with food is a healthy one, it can do a lot of damage to your pleasure in your own body, to your connection with others, and to an ability to do what you want. Because you start to restrict yourself and prohibit yourself from taking action unless you're the perfect thing that you need to be. So I think what's important to remember is that there are other ways of meeting our emotional needs, of soothing our discomfort and feeling good, and it's best to have a broad range of strategies and not just food.

14:27

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That's excellent advice, Courtney. Sort of a tool box of ways of coping with when things get tough or or whatever it might be.

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What's the likely?

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Do you think that there's a perception that if you're blind or low vision, do image isn't something that you

14:40

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need to worry about? Yeah, I think some people assume that if you're not visually oriented, if you don't have vision, then you don't need to adhere to the rules that are visual world mice down. But it's actually the opposite. I would assume that given that the world is set up for sighted people in order for vision impaired people to participate, to have friends and to have jobs and polite interactions in society, we have to learn about the visual norms, even though we don't have access to that visual information and we have to do our best to meet them in the social model of disability is something that tells us that because we're different from the norm, it is harder to learn and to participate in a visual world because it's not set up to operate in the way that works for us. So we have to read a lot. We have to listen a lot, we have to develop work arounds and that can be exhausting. Andy started Exchange is one way, really because we're under the guise of others, but we're not necessarily able to see them ourselves.

15:44

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Yeah, and particularly over the last year or so, many of us have kind of been the subject of prolonged visual exposure through Zoom meetings and various online get togethers. And there's that little box in the corner and feel sighted or not sighted. There's still that sense that your face is very much on display, and there's obviously the option to turn off your video, but I guess that in itself sends a message. What's your take on this?

16:08

S4

Yeah, I think being watched by others is draining for anyone, but at the very least sighted person has the opportunity to watch others. So it's a two way exchange, but it's a particular kind of relationship that a blind person enters into understanding that they need to participate in the visual world, but sometimes wouldn't mind a bit of a reprieve from that. And so turning off the camera is an opportunity to focus in on the sense that we need to rely on because we don't have patients who are hearing and to not feel like we also then need to perform visually at the same time.

16:43

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Tess, how about you over the last year or so? Are you a video on girl or video of?

16:47

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Well, it

16:48

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really does depend it from a professional. You know, when I'm when I'm in work meetings, I often prefer to have my video off unless they particularly request it. I guess partly because it makes the internet wobbly of videos on sometimes, but also because because I just I do feel a little bit less self-conscious about what I'm wearing, where I'm sitting. I don't know what anybody else is, you know, is doing, you know, whether they're all sort of dressed up in skirts and tops and whether I need to be or so. I do prefer to have the video off when I'm in a work meeting. But in a social meeting with friends, I often prefer to have the video on. Although I do, I feel I do feel sad that I can't see them. I mean, because I've so much missed that physical contact with friends being able to give them a hug or hold their arm or whatever. But I'd love to be able to see them, but I do feel a bit more comforted that they at least can see me when I'm on Zoom and that that's what makes it a bit or face time. And that's what makes it a bit different and special. Rather than just talking on the phone that they can actually see me, they can see a little bit into my house. They can see a little bit more into. I live, so it does vary, but certainly at work, I feel very self-conscious.

17:58

S2

Courtney, what about you video or video

18:00

S4

of I tend to be a video off person if I consider it to be within the realm of polite exchange. I do get asked pointedly to turn it on sometimes, and then I'll usually be comfortable to do that. That said, there are sometimes some technical barriers to me doing that because I've got a screen up in front of my face, so I then have to sacrifice being able to orient to what I can orient through on the screen by pushing that away. And just being there to be seen by others.

18:30

S2

There's been some really interesting thinking around body positivity and celebrating all body shapes and more recently took of body neutrality. So rather than aiming to love your body, which can be really tough for many of us, the less challenging aspiration to become less emotionally influenced by how your body look if you're struggling with body image, what are some things that you can do to develop and maintain a healthy body image?

18:53

S4

Start listening to your body. Do what's loving in response to what you hear. We've got to meet our physical needs through sleep and through movement that we enjoy and through responding to our genuine hunger and what we need to do, especially if we've been experiencing the challenges of an eating disorder is we've got to stop imposing what we think things should be and listen to what actually is what our body is really telling us. And mindfulness as a lot of really useful strategies for this, or if you want to keep it super simple, you can just pause and breathe and involve your breathing. Be aware of what's going on. The second thing is to nurture yourself emotionally. It's as you've just said poly, or it only natural to feel conflicted about your body. Yeah, we want to love our body. We want to appreciate it and feel grateful for it. But sometimes we also feel compelled to change it to match the expectations of what we think the outside world requires of us. So we've got to figure out some ways to get on good hands with the difference between what we actually are and what the external ideal is without punishing ourselves or hiding away. And some of the things that we can do, there are things like self-compassion, or we can simply show mercy to ourself. That's another way of thinking about it, because a lot of the things that we say about ourselves, like what is articulated to us, we would never dream to say to another person because they're so incredibly cruel that

20:23

S2

some of the sorry to jump in quarterly. But somehow some of the words tests that you were using were really strong and I don't think be another person in the world that you'd say that to. And yet you were saying about yourself.

20:34

S4

And I think one of the things that Test was able to say on the flip side and and show us that, you know, when she became a healthier person is how grateful she is for how beautiful her body is and to learn to really appreciate it's a gratitude is another thing that's very important. I would say that in this emotional nurturing space, you're also looking for social connections and test, as also mentioned, where she's able to connect with others via telehealth via video conference. Because that gives us validation of our feelings and we're able to regulate so we're able to feel together in connection with another person. And then the third thing that we need to do is embrace the fact that everyone is different. That's the reality, everyone. Everybody is different and that's a good thing.

21:22

S2

Thank you both so much. Test for sharing your own experience and Kourtney for coming with such compassion and really practical steps about what you can do to to develop and maintain that healthy body image. Thank you so much.

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S4

Thanks for having me, guys.

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S1

You're listening to nothing's off limits. We're Tess and Polly, did you know, Vision Australia partners with the Melbourne Fashion Festival to make its runways accessible through audio description. But more information go to Vision Australia dot org or call one eight four seven four double six. Vision Australia Blindness Low Vision Opportunity.

21:59

S2

Our next guest is Samantha Hardy. Samantha is one of the

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voices you might hear if you called Vision Australia as a Service Connect officer. Samantha plays a vital role connecting people with support services. Samantha herself has low vision and is a sometime cane user. How important is appearance to you, Samantha?

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I'd have to say it is quite important to me. I'm quite passionate about fashion than clothing in general. I still find people tend to expect people that are blind or visually impaired to look sort of badly dressed and maybe a bit sort of downtrodden and not quite sort of fishing in to the world or with other people. And I really like to buck that trend. I really like to express myself in a way that shows that I'm confident and getting on with my life. Clothing can be a really powerful tool so that it's almost like a shorthand for telling people in the world who you are. People do tend to sort of make very quick judgments about who you are by your appearance. You know,

23:01

S3

some people and I certainly usually one of them might say, Oh, I'm just not interested in fashion. I mean, it's just fashion, you know, comfort over fashion and all that. The appearance really goes deeper than fashion, doesn't it?

23:13

S4

It sort of speaks to who you are in the world and how you want to express yourself. And I certainly get that for some people, particularly since they have low vision, the clothing might not be important to them. And I'm certainly not saying that it should be. I'm just sort of expressing my own feelings about it. When I first started using a cane, I went for quite a while, was listening to this one because it just felt really confronting. And eventually I accepted that it was going to be really useful to help me to get around independently and do the things I wanted to do. So I learned how to use a cane, and I started using one. And when I first started using it, the experience was incredibly intense. It was like people's reactions were really quite extreme. And on the one hand, I was super visible in the community, but also at the same time, I became completely invisible. It's like people only saw a blind person with a cane, and they no longer saw me at all. And I got on a train with my time and still sort of dealing with people's reactions. And then I was sitting in the train and this man got on like a stop after me. Absolutely fabulous looking like well-dressed, confident looking man in a suit and a briefcase. He happened to be using the cane. I remember thinking, Yes, no one is going to be looking at that man thinking, Oh, that's so sad that man's blind, and they're just going to be thinking, Oh, this very confident, attractive man who obviously has a vision impairment is using the cane. And I remember thinking, that's how I want to be in the world. So do you feel like

24:48

S3

when you before you are using your cane people, approached you in a very different way to to when it sounds like there was a real change in the way people perceived you just because you were holding the cane?

24:58

S4

There is, and there is still and there was, and I've spoken to lots of other people who experienced something quite similar to that. It can be can be really extreme people's reactions. And I'm not completely blind, whatever that, whatever that might be. But I have some. I have some vision, so I use the cane because I can't tell distances or depth or I don't see any details. So it helps me, helps to keep me safe. But I actually have still part of the time. See people's reactions to Cane. I can see them hesitating. I can see them doing weird things with it, and I can see them staring at me. I get Botox. I'm using the cane. But then I also I'm aware of people's reactions to it.

25:38

S3

So how do we go about finding out what the visual norms are, whether or not we we follow or defy them?

25:44

S4

I guess I'm only aware of some visual norms and sorts of things. I'm aware that I'm probably missing like eye contact and things like that. But what I've done is enlisted the help of some of my trusted family and friends just to kind of give me a bit of guidance when I need it so that I can sort of I guess for me, it's a simplified version. I don't take too many crazy risks because I don't really can't really see what I'm wearing that well, but just to help me to feel like I'm dressing well in the world.

26:16

S3

Are there ways in which we can use our appearance and demeanor to give the impression of being confident, more confident that we perhaps are?

26:25

S4

I think I learnt from another friend of mine who's he's a cane user. I was finding that I was having a lot of trouble using my came, as I've already mentioned, and when I went out with and. Using mine, and she is just so incredibly confident, almost aggressive, it's OK, she's very lovely and so you could never describe her as aggressive but just super confident, and I find that people react really differently to cover up. There's a woman on a mission, really doesn't need any help. I'll just get out of her way. And I found I find that that really works for her. And I actually there's a lot by being out with her and observing what she does and how she moves in the world. Samantha, it's been

27:04

S3

such a pleasure chatting with you today. Thanks for joining us. Remember, you can download Nothing's Off Limits via the Vision Australia website at Vision Australia dot org. That's Vision Australia dot org. Just search for nothing's off limits into the search engine, and you'll be directed to a web page where you can view this episode and earlier episodes, and please make sure you subscribe so you don't miss any. Also, you can tune in via Virgin Australia Radio. We've gathered up all the contact details of the organisations mentioned in this episode and put them on the Vision Australia website. You can also find there a great webinar with Chloe Norton from the Melbourne Fashion Festival about how we can find and dress to our style.

27:49

S1

That was nothing's off limits. Made with the support of Vision Australia and the NDIS information linkages and capacity building grant, learn more about our radio and podcast offerings by visiting V.J. Radio, dot org and access all there is to know about our range of client services via our website. Vision Australia dot org. We thank everyone who participated in this episode, but especially you for listening today. We rely on your support, so please share this podcast with just one person today and brighten our day or write us on your preferred podcast platform. Bye for now.