Healthy and unhealthy relationships

00:03

S1

Nothing's off limits. It's off limits. Bringing together experts and people with lived experience to discuss the topics we love to avoid, but absolutely need to talk about me with the support of Vision Australia and the NDIS information linkages and capacity building grant building grants.

00:24

S2

Hello and welcome to the series where nothing's off limits. My name is Polly, and together with my co-host Tess, we're exploring some of those topics which we might usually consider off limits and discussing them openly and honestly and through the specific lens of blindness and low vision with the help of expert guests.

00:42

S3

You can download this podcast at Vision Australia dot org, and there will be more details about where you can find us at the end of the episode.

00:52

S2

In this episode, we are talking about something we all have experience in relationships, whether it's relationships with the partner, parents, a child, a sibling, a friends or a carer. These are hugely influential connections. They have the capacity to nourish us deeply, to make us laugh and make us cry. For how do we cultivate and nurture healthy relationships? And how do we identify and deal with unhealthy ones? And are there particular challenges if you are blind or have low vision around building and maintaining positive relationships, or in changing or moving away from negative relationships?

01:27

S1

Nothing's off limits. With Tess and Polly Polly, how would you describe a healthy relationship?

01:38

S4

Lots of fun, lots of chatter times apart and time together. I think trust communication, a sense of humour, the ability to be able to speak openly.

01:50

S1

One that's built on trust and open dialogue.

01:52

S3

I think it's one where there's trust and there's mutual respect.

01:57

S4

There's support

01:58

S3

and belief in each other

02:00

S4

is one where both parties give and take,

02:07

S5

where you are respectful and mindful of other people and flexible and adaptable.

02:14

S1

What are the things that are unhealthy about a relationship controlling

02:17

S5

behaviour where there is bullying? We know if someone's just not taking a being aware of the other person.

02:23

S3

If we're talking about this in terms of vision, it's important to me that if I accept support from somebody close to me that I feel that I'm able to support them in other ways. Equally, I don't like to have a relationship where I feel like I'm relying more on somebody than

02:41

S4

they're relying on me.

02:42

S6

A healthy relationship? Well, it's it's good to have a dream, isn't it? I've been married for 12 years. Part of the secrets of my success on holding onto my beautiful wife is that we're actually quite good at talking about stuff where I say, I'm sorry. I have become a bit of a low vision diva over the last year. Presenting Studio one on Vision Australia Radio. I have found out there's a lot of the things that I do that are a bit weird or wrong. Actually, loads of other people do them as well who have sight impairments. So I turned into a bit of a diva recently about that one. My three key bits of advice say thank you. Say sorry. I know when to buy

03:19

S1

flowers you're listening to. Nothing's off limits. Where Tess and Polly produced by Vision Australia Radio

03:26

S3

one way of working out what a healthy relationship is could be identifying what it isn't. Our first guest has experienced and survived some challenging relationships. Sarah Taylor is a quality living co-ordinator at Vision Australia. She's happily divorced, but still negotiating family dynamics. Sarah, thank you so much for coming on the program.

03:48

S4

Thank you for having me.

03:49

S3

What constitutes for you a healthy relationship?

03:53

S4

It's an interesting question. Very interesting question for me. I think autonomy and being able to maintain your identity and your yourself within that relationship, I think is important. Having the freedom to be yourself and not feel judged, I think I

04:09

S3

think those are some really important points

04:12

S4

to go over the flip side of that. What are some of the red flags that might alert you to the fact that relationship might not be completely healthy? In my experience, it was that feeling of discomfort and not feeling like I had those those options or not feeling the choices were being made on my behalf. So I think, yeah, so

04:33

S3

it's important that you get that autonomy in a relationship.

04:37

S4

It's important to make decisions together, perhaps. I think so. And just having the courage to stand up for yourself if you feel that that's needed things like that. So lately, now you've had the experience of being

04:51

S3

married and leaving a

04:53

S4

marriage. How did you negotiate that and were there any challenges specific to your vision in negotiating that? Definitely. I think I stay longer than I probably should have because I did rely on my partner a lot for my ability. I remember before we got married saying to him, I don't want to become dependent on you. That's my biggest fear. And I don't know if you've heard the saying you create what you fear. So yes, yes. How did you overcome those challenges in order to become autonomous now? Yeah, well, the thing was prior to in my teens, I was fearless. I would travel into state on my own. I was very like, I had all the training, the orientation, my ability training. So I was very capable. And then somewhere in my twenties, I just kind of let it let it go. Then I had children and that kind of forces you to be a bit more with your mum than say, you've got people looking up to you. And I think when I reconnected with the miners and my vision community and it helped me regain some of that confidence, some of that independence and that kind of was the beginning of the end. So what

06:03

S3

advice would you have for someone who's in a similar position to you, perhaps in a relationship that isn't healthy and where they're not feeling autonomous and like they're making decisions for

06:14

S4

themselves? Well, I have a friend in a situation at the moment. I've been talking with and the best advice I can give is just be your friend. If you've got friends going through that, just be a friend to your friends. But I would say it's not as scary as you think it's going to be. You do have the skills, you do have the strength that they need to gain that independence. And sometimes you don't realize it until you're forced into doing it, but you're stronger than you think.

06:39

S3

How important is it to have supports around you? You know, friends, family and as you said, you were talking about being a friend. How important are those supports when you taking a big step like leading a relationship to become more independent and autonomous?

06:55

S4

It's tricky because if you're in in a situation where you're completely dependent on that person, often you lose those relationships. And so it's really tricky to have those for myself. I was quite alone after my separation, which was hard. It was lonely, but it kind of forced me to be more independent and it challenged me to find that resilience within. So in some ways, it's a curse and a blessing. In some ways it's a good thing because it forces you to look too inwardly and on others and on the hands. It's good to have those friends to lean on, so you don't want to replace the dependency with your partner, with your friends on the cash level.

07:32

S3

Very much about making sure that you can rely on yourself. So you're a mother and a daughter, and both roles involve nurture and caring, but with someone who has a disability. Are there any challenges around navigating boundaries, around caring and being a carer? It's a tricky

07:53

S4

one. It is always a tricky one. And because, you know, in quality of living, we talk to a lot of different people and it's very interesting to hear the different stories. There are people who rely heavily on their partners or their mothers or their families, and are those who like, Oh no, you can't rely on them, you've got to do it yourself. And so negotiating that balance is really tricky, especially if you've got a family member who's overprotective. And I just want to do everything for you that can be quite disempowering, although it's easy and convenient. And then with the children too, I even find sometimes my daughter will speak up on my behalf and it's like, Well, hold on. I'm the adult. I'm going to say it is tricky to negotiate those boundaries. So continuing dance, I think? Absolutely.

08:39

S7

Sarah, thank you so much for being here.

08:41

S4

That's been a pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thanks, Steve.

08:44

S2

There's a really powerful definition of relationships on the government funded Domestic Violence Organisation website. One 800 Respect. They say relationships remind us that we are valued and allow us to share the joys and challenges of life with others. And they also affirm that you have the right to feel respected and safe in your relationships and to help us explore what this means a bit further. I'm delighted to welcome back Natalie Wade. Natalie is the founder and principal lawyer at Equality Lawyers, a firm relatively unique in Australia being set up by us for us. Natalie, welcome back.

09:18

S4

Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here

09:21

S2

talking to us from Adelaide at a very busy rush hour. So, Natalie, maybe can you start by telling us what we can do when we don't feel respected and safe in a relationship?

09:31

S4

I think it's really important to start with recognising what unsafe can look like, because I think often when we talk about unsafe relationships, we're seeing really violent situations like rape and physical injuries and other really awful things that can absolutely happen in the domestic violence and family violence space. But I would really like to recognise that unsafe relationships can also be more safer than I'd always have to be. That really violent end of the spectrum and then can be more sort of, you know, to your own religious. And it can be about controlling money, maybe your partner or your your parents don't allow you to have control of your money and don't let you bother in junior year, or maybe your support worker tells you what you can wear every day, even if that's not what you want to wear. Perhaps your friends tell you to drink lots of alcohol when you're out on Saturday night, even when you wonder and these are all versions of unsafe relationships and also very much including violence and criminal offended relationships.

11:06

S2

That's really helpful when I see those signs that, you know, it's not just the kind of big ticket items that are an indicator of an unhealthy relationship, it's all of those things that you mentioned as well and the fact that relationships beyond just you might think of an emotional relationship with a partner. It's all of those other ones. And you mentioned carers. And I guess if you have a disability, that is another relationship you may well have between yourself and a paid support worker. Can you tell us a bit more about, I guess, what the particular challenges are around managing that relationship?

11:34

S4

Paid support workers are definitely a unique experience for people with disabilities, and it's not one that is overly shared throughout the community. I think as it forces the mainstream community minded to this is in instances of aged care or child care, even where there are people that are paid to provide care and support to people who at that time when they're receiving that care rights in that their vulnerability is derived by the power that the support worker or carer has or the person with a disability. And that may be physical power. You know, you could be that person with a disability receives personal care. You're encouraging to rely on your shower, getting dressed and not paid. Somehow, a worker has the ability to physically place that person with a disability relevant guidelines, ideally their place in their general, their bed or their shower, or wherever it may be that they could decide that they want to leave a person in bed day and there would not be allowed that the person with a disability can do about it. But there are other homeless if those working in professional relationships that are very often the support workers are in people's homes, probably. And so there's there's a real dynamic around including sexual harm, which we spoke about a little while ago and making sure that that rendering clear as people with disabilities about what the boundaries are and and what respect for child support workers. We are very clear that we know what we need people with disabilities, what we do if we become unsafe around child support records. So often we hear about people with disabilities who don't want to speak out against their support workers because they're scared. Understandably, they won't be able to receive support or not be able to get on with the life that they are living because they literally can't be out of the house. Or even worse, they are scared that they may be reprimanded for taking a stand against that person's behavior. I felt as though a lot of people with disabilities have a fear of the unknown that if news read Bad, I don't know what I would do. And so I'm a lot more scared than I would be otherwise. And I think it's really important for people to have a game plan if things do go bad. And what would

14:31

S2

some of this things be in that game plan? What are some of the options they'd have?

14:34

S4

Everyone's game plan is drawn to a little bit different because everyone has different people. They can put on the fear. If you think of it, your what's your game plan is sort of involving people in your life that you can reach out to when you need support to be able to address issues around safety in your in your life and through paid support like or otherwise. Then people will have a different amount of paper put on the share. Sorry. Some people who have parents, other people's parents who have possibly something wrong, partners or close friends other can live with the invisible disabilities. Their friends and family may not know that they have disabilities. And so I not know that those who. Risks open to that. So I just felt it was a really recognize that not everyone who receives care or finds themselves in their situation is in a rude chair or has a physical disability, notwithstanding the fact that the game plan would be different for everyone. I think some of the really key parts of Origin Player and they're not compulsory, but they might be good foundations for listeners to think about to help every person that you trust and you had to reach out to and have their views on what is going on. And sometimes it's really helpful to just ask someone else who is not as involved as your job if you like. Does this feel a little weird to you? Is this maybe not what it's meant to be a resume? I am that you. You're the person with a disability. No, the numbers or the websites of really important first responder agencies like the police and Ambulance Service, even even the fire service, if if that's a risk for you. And so just making sure that you have the numbers saved in your phone or in your notes, curry is responsible for the support workers. If you go bad for NDIS participants, that might be the NDIS Quality and Safeguards Commission for other people with disabilities and the not only NDIS. They may need to reach out to their local disability advocates or for disability rights lawyer and and their goals are tied to you, and you don't even have to have the answers over there because something may never go wrong. And that's okay. That's that's great. But what we want is for you to be able to have a line of sight to make sure that if something bad starts to happen or something awful goes wrong, that you have at least one or two professional organizations that you were written for and knowledge and organization fire to respond.

17:35

S2

Natalie, thank

17:36

S7

you so much. It's always a

17:37

S2

pleasure talking to you and looking forward to having you back again soon.

17:40

S4

Thank you so much for having me.

17:44

S1

You're listening to nothing's off limits with Tess and Polly. Did you know, Vision Australia runs a range of community and support groups? For more information, go to Vision Australia dot org local one 300 eight four seven four Double six Vision Australia Blindness Low Vision

18:01

S7

Opportunity Mental

18:02

S3

Health Organisation Headspace said that often healthy relationships experience a lot of challenges like arguments, and they grow from them to help us explore how we can nurture our relationships. I'm delighted to welcome Vicki Contreras, one of Vision Australia's paediatric counsellors, and she's also a family therapist with decades of experience working with young people and their relationships with their families.

18:25

S7

Thanks, Tess. It's great to be here again.

18:27

S3

I'm not going to start by asking you what a healthy relationship looks like or how you can recognise red flags, because I think you take a different perspective on this. Am I right?

18:37

S7

I do like to think about relationships in terms of relational health, much like the term we use with mental health, because I prefer to view relationships on a continuum rather than them being polar opposites. I do ask myself, what am I willing to give to and take from that relationship that contributes to overall relational health? This give and take depends on who I'm interacting with, and the relationship that's the dance of relationships is how we engage and interact with one another, its own steps and tempo and rhythm unnecessary in order for us to negotiate the moves between people. And sometimes they steps off, verbalize so openly stated so that people who are involved understand what is expected of them, and sometimes they're never discussed. So it's the actions between people that define what's going on in that relationship. But I would like to say that the first relationship dance we encounter is between ourselves and our parents or our caregivers. This stance is the foundation for how we dance solo and with others in our future relationships. There is a quote that I often refer to, which is most of us leave our families of origin physically, but we rarely leave them emotionally, meaning that we continue to re-enact the dynamics in that relationship, dance in the family we create and also with the relationships we have with other people.

19:55

S3

Something that you have mentioned before is system theory. Could you tell me a little bit more about that?

20:01

S7

Yeah. So without going into too much detail because I don't want it to sound really complicated. Systems theory abuse a family as a unique emotional and social system, which includes the household members and other members outside of that house that play a really important role in the person's life and in clinical practice. When I'm presented with a problem we tend to use, especially family therapists, we tend to perceive how the problem is maintained by how the individuals interact with one another and how they come together to find solutions, in other words, how they dance. In addition, the system also can include broader systems that are connected to those members as well and have an impact. So schools and especially with working with primary schools or teenagers who are in secondary as well, I have a lot to do with those institutions and these different systems or context matter because how we are in one environment may not be how we are with another. And it's really important to kind of gauge where that difference is because in each context comes different people and with different people, we have a different dance. What are some of

21:03

S3

the specific challenges and opportunities in developing relationships where one partner is blind or has long vision?

21:11

S7

I suppose one kind of thing to think about is ultimately, what do we all want from a relationship? And the thing that we really want is to feel safe and secure in that relationship. What we want to feel that we can explore the world and return to this safe haven and the safe haven is in between those two people in that relationship or the family. If we're talking about the relational aspect of a family and that there is a sense of closeness, but also a sense of separateness between people as well. We also want to feel connected to the important people in our lives, and we want those important people to show up for us in good times, as well as the difficult times. And we want to feel understood when there is conflict and we absolutely need to find opportunities to repair what has been ruptured. So what I've described is not what we want, but really what we absolutely need in order to thrive as humans. And this isn't only applicable to adult relationships. This is also relate between relationships between parents and the children or even friends. So, Vicki,

22:10

S2

one question that came in was about how sighted partners might not understand some of the really important things if you're blind or have low vision. So some of the really kind of practical things around keeping things in the same place, I guess recognising that greater cognitive load when you're listening to the television, for example, how do you have those conversations with your partner in a constructive and empowering way rather than feeling like you're asking a favour?

22:35

S7

So research suggests that how a partner raises an issue in the first three minutes of a conversation is crucial to resolving relationship.

22:44

S2

So three minutes, that's three minutes.

22:46

S7

Yes. So really, what that is telling us is to really think about how we start a conversation and we should try and start it softly. So instead of starting a conversation with criticism and accusations which immediately puts your partner in a defense position, and the sentence usually starts with the word, you start the conversation with the word I. So instead of saying you never listen to me, you can say, I don't feel heard right now because the furniture is moved. Hmm. And see how that has a different feel to it.

23:18

S3

Yeah, I've heard that one before. A lot of people, they do. They say, you know, speaking, I sentences, I feel this rather than rather than being defensive and, you know, and putting them on the defense. So I think that's a

23:31

S4

really useful strategy.

23:32

S7

So they're absolutely test. Usually therapists call them by statements or iMessages because the whole importance of it is starting their sentence off with the word I. So another thing is focusing on how you're feeling. Not accusing your partner both of you will likely feel that you are being heard and understood if you're coming from that place and also from your own emotional state.

23:54

S2

Going in nice and calm for those first three minutes in particular can be hard. If this is a problem that's built up and built up and kind of seething over every day silently.

24:02

S7

Because when things start to build up, there's a snowball effect. So when you do start to want to talk to your partner about something that's just happened, but it's been manifesting from things that have happened in the past and you've never discussed them. The feeling associated with all of what's happened in the months is bigger than what's actually happening in the here and now, sort of

24:25

S2

the straw that broke the camel's back sort of analogy.

24:27

S7

Absolutely. And this is easier said than done. Of course, we know that if we do this, it actually changes the neural pathways in our brain through repetition and practice. So it doesn't matter if we don't get it right the first time. As long as we just keep trying at it

24:43

S3

and staying on the theme of being in a relationship where one partner has low vision, how can people navigate the boundaries between being a partner and being a carer if one partner in the relationship has lost their

24:56

S7

sight or is deteriorating? So the shift from partner to carer can be challenging because it can change the dynamic in that relationship as well as a family unit. Because what was once normal is not is no longer the feeling of normal. It's now become different and you have to kind of navigate the new normal kind of like with COVID. So it's a normal and natural response to instantly be concerned for your partner's well-being and treatment. And sometimes this may take priority, but it's important to be open about the renegotiation of roles. I like to view these roles as identities that intersect, and each identity needs nourishment, so the renegotiating of roles will help re-establish boundaries in the relationship, which is important because becoming a carer doesn't have to mean doing everything for your partner. Your partner may also want to do some things for. So in order to nourish the independence part of themselves, just in conclusion to that, it's important to be open about how you feel and communicate in ways that creates an atmosphere of respect, trust and safety, much like what we have already covered today. And if you need support to do these, seek help from others, including trusted friends or family as well as professionals.

26:03

S3

Vicki, thank you so much for joining us today.

26:06

S7

You're welcome. Thank you for having me again.

26:08

S3

Thanks, Vicki. And remember, each episode is available to download from the Virgin Australia website Virgin Australia dot org and type Nothing's off limits into the search engine. You'll be directed to our web page where you can view this and earlier episodes, or you can tune in to Virgin Australia Radio. We've gathered up all the contact details of the organizations mentioned in this episode, along with some resources, which has some great advice and perspectives around starting, ending and growing relationships. If this episode has brought up any issues for you, please contact Lifeline on 13, 11, 14 or online at Lifeline dot org dot, AEW or Suicide. Call back service on one 300 six five nine four six seven or online at Suicide Call Back Service Dot org dot and you all contact beyondblue at one 322 46 36 or visit online at two beyondblue dot org dot AEW.

27:05

S2

Next time we'll be talking about appearance and body image. But for now, it's thank you to our guests and thank you for joining us for the show where nothing's off limits.

27:15

S1

That was nothing's off limits. Made with the support of Vision Australia and the NDIS Information Linkages and Capacity Building Grant. Learn more about our radio and podcast offerings by visiting VIP radio, dot org and access all there is to know about our range of client services via our website. Vision Australia dot org. We thank everyone who participated in this episode, but especially you for listening today. We rely on your support. Share this podcast with just one person today. And Bright Announce or write us on your preferred podcast platform. Bye for now.