Dating with blindness or low vision

00:03

S1

Nothing's off limits, things off limits, bringing together experts and people with lived experience to discuss the topics we love to avoid, but absolutely need to talk about me with the support of Vision Australia and the NDIS information linkages and capacity building grant and grants.

00:25

S2

Hello, and welcome to this next episode of Nothing's Off Limits. My name is Tess, and together with my co-host Polly, we're going to be delving into some of those subjects which we might normally consider off limits, such as dating, adult entertainment, identity and more. We'll be exploring them openly and honestly through the specific lens of blindness and low vision with the help of our expert guests.

00:48

S3

This podcast is available to be downloaded on the Vision Australia website, and you can find out more information about where to find our web page at the end of the show. But in this episode, we are talking about dating, and there are a number of ways we can go about meeting potential dates. Some people might go to speed dating events or singles parties, and others may look online, and there are many online dating sites, including Tinder, eHarmony, OkCupid, Hinge and Bumble. And they enable you to view the profiles of people anywhere in the world and interact with them by sharing messages and photos. And in spite of the benefits this may provide, it also presents a number of challenges, particularly for people with a disability. Some of the most common challenges include the issue of whether or not to disclose that you have a disability and how to remain safe and comfortable when meeting someone you've only spoken to online. Unfortunately, these issues can become obstacles to people with a disability feeling confident to explore the world of online dating. Is that something that resonates with you? It really

01:50

S2

does poly. I've experienced the world of online dating and look, everyone's different. I don't know if dating as somebody who's gay is different is similar to dating as somebody who's straight, but I've always wondered whether to disclose my blindness, whether or not to. There's been problems with accessibility of certain sites, so that's sort of limited my options in some way. So I can quite understand how a lot of people with disabilities might be prevented from exploring the world of dating by by some of the challenges that we face today with modern dating. Well, to

02:21

S3

help us address some of these challenges, we have a great lineup of guests and we'll introduce them in a moment. But first we asked you how you approached the challenges of dating, and we got some really interesting answers.

02:34

S1

Nothing's off limits with Tess and Polly Polly. What's the hardest thing about dating? I don't think it differs too much with a blind, low vision or completely sighted. It's just that saying hello and making that first contact.

02:56

S4

Good question. Wait a minute. Posit there for a second. The hardest thing about dating is getting over negative self-talk.

03:04

S1

Oh wow, that's profound. Most people would say the options that are out there,

03:10

S4

I think the the options that are out there are dictated by how you see yourself. You limit your own options by going, Oh, look, I'm not good enough for that person or how do you know that you know that person is outside my lead? Or how do you know that you're limiting yourself by the way you see yourself

03:30

S5

or to be truthful? Jason, I'm completely hopeless in this area, and I haven't done much of it, and I need to do more of it. But I think the hardest thing is that a lot of initial attraction is visual, and it's those non those sort of visual cues that can begin attraction. And when you can't see, you don't have that connection, that early connection with people, it's hard to actually strike up that connection. So then you have all the online dating apps, and I can't talk about it, but I've never done it. I feel like I don't feel particularly comfortable and straying into that area, even though probably that's what I do need to do.

04:07

S6

Oh, these days, I think it's because there's so much competition out there. Also, social media, I think in some ways makes it harder. I think the challenge is today's if people use the Tindal, another sort of dating platforms and there's the whole issue about disclosure, do I disclose that I'm visually impaired or not? And then this whole anxiety thing about sort of meeting up someone and having to reveal the fact that you're visually impaired? It's it's it's probably a lot more challenging than what it's ever been. In some ways. A lot of people, I think, just give up.

04:40

S7

To me, this is a little bit like the whole finding employment thing. It's like, when do you disclose my vision impairment isn't very obvious to someone just looking at me at first glance, this is really weird dance that I have to do, not just with dating with everybody. When they start to notice that I'm not looking at them straight on or I'm not able to see something, there's a sort of a point between where it becomes awkward. And I don't want to say something and where I probably should have stepped in and said, something's dating. Sites always say that eye contact is the most important thing, which is really daunting when you can't make eye contact.

05:17

S1

You're listening to Nothing's Off Limits, which is entirely produced by Vision Australia radio.

05:23

S2

It's time. You welcome our first guest for this episode, Adelina Holloway, a mentor and passionate advocate for people who are blind or have low vision to have their voices heard. After 27 years of marriage, Adelina decided to explore the world of online dating, and she's here to tell us all about it. Lena, welcome. Thank you for joining us.

05:43

S3

And let's go straight in. What made you decide to explore online dating?

05:47

S8

Well, as you mentioned, I'd been with the same pattern of for 27 years, married for 20 of those years. And yeah, about three and a half years ago we split it, knocked the wind out of myself, so to speak, and I wondered how I would get along in the world alone, let alone alone with someone with low vision. It took me a while to learn how to be alone and and I realized after a little while that I just didn't want to be. I come from an Italian background where intimacy, passion, connection with other people, all that sort of thing is very much ingrained in me. So I knew I could never get through, get along in this world without a partner. I was about 18 months into reconciling with my divorce or my separation that I'd give a colleague of mine sort of had some success with one of the dating sites, and I thought I resisted and resisted and then thought, Well, what the hell? And on I went.

06:39

S3

And what were some of the challenges that came with online dating?

06:43

S8

I got a lot of attention on there, which I wasn't expecting. Yeah, so I guess it was just trying to weed out who the scammers were and how the who, the ones that were worth perhaps chatting to and then deciding at what point do I disclose my vision impairment? Once I realized I wanted to meet that person and make that meet the person, you know, face to face. So that was challenging as far as I've got enough vision that I was able to see the photographs. Accessibility wasn't too much of an issue for me. Yeah, look, disclosure was the biggest thing to me, I think, yeah.

07:13

S3

And can you tell us a bit more about that? Because that feels like such a personal choice and particularly with online dating and as you said, if you're maybe low vision, so there's less maybe visual cues that might indicate that you have a vision loss. How did you go about that?

07:29

S8

I think I made the decision that I wouldn't do it in the app. I wanted to give myself the best chance of finding someone that accepted me for me before they stereotype me as, you know, the blind girl, you know? So that was a decision I made, whether it be right or wrong that I wouldn't disclose in the app. Like, I wouldn't say that I was, that I had a vision impairment in the app. Then I had to decide whether I would do it when I had conversations or face time, conversations or whatever. And often I grappled with that a little bit because texting that someone can become quite intimate and and it's almost like I felt at times that I was being a bit of a fraud because I wouldn't wasn't telling them the whole truth about myself. Having said that, I soon found out that I had met people that were so different from the person I was speaking to. So, you know who was the fraud? Yeah, so but I decided I didn't disclose in the first few dates if I wanted it to go to a second date or further than that, then I would disclose. There were times where I just went on, I need to get out of here and it's not worth my energy to disclose. And and then and then if I knew there it some potential for it to go further, then yeah, I disclosed I would say that, you know, but just pieces at a time. I didn't give my whole life story. I gave pieces at a time and what I felt I needed to know at that time. But soon found out that that probably wasn't the right tack, because I yeah, it kind of backfired on me a couple of times. Yeah, I can tell that story.

08:58

S9

If you want me to. I feel like we have to ask the question Well. Okay. Yeah.

09:04

S8

So and it's with because of I mean, I went on many, many dates and somewhat short term. Some didn't go past the first date. But I just talk about the current one that's been about eight months in now, and I sat with him one night over a drink and I sort of said, you know, when would you have like me to disclose? He obviously knows now. He said, I would like you to have disclosed on the first night. I said, why? He said, Because I thought you weren't into me. And I went, Why? He said, Because you weren't making any eye contact with me over dinner. And then when we got intimate, he again said during, you know, the throes of passion for want of a better word. I said I wasn't making any eye contact. I wasn't looking at him. So he said to me, I just thought you weren't into me. Couple of days later, he rang me and he said, I don't I don't think this is going to work. And I hadn't disclosed at this stage and I said why? And he said, it's clear that you're not into me. I just think you're perhaps too good for me the way you look or that sort of thing. I'm not, you know, you just you weren't making any eye contact with me and I just went, Oh gosh, I can't. I've got to tell you something. This is the reason why I wasn't making eye contact with you. And he went, Oh God, why didn't you tell me? He said, Now it makes sense. So, yeah, that was my story about that, Ben. I'm still with that particular gentleman, so

10:14

S1

I knew it wasn't me. JJ Sutherland, I chime in and did.

10:24

S9

And I had to say I have to just

10:26

S8

add a little bit the other way that this guy is on air or not, but it kind of had a knock on effect to, Oh gosh, how do I say this to his performance? Now I actually rang a friend of mine, a gay male friend, and said, there's such a thing as performance anxiety said, Hell yeah. They said, What are you talking about? Tell me the story. And I said, Well, this is the story. And he went, Oh God, I'm intimidated by you, let alone, you know? Yeah, you know, someone who is not only intimidated by the way you look, but then you don't make any eye contact with him and you're not one of the poor guy couldn't perform. So, you know, oh, poor bloke.

11:02

S9

Oh, as soon as I disclosed,

11:04

S8

everything

11:05

S9

changed. Oh gosh, say I overshare, Love it. I love it. Thank you.

11:14

S8

They describe it as a good thing.

11:15

S3

So that's a really insightful story. And I guess now you're a few months down the line. I guess that's another thing that we've spoken about in the past around. If you have a disability, that is danger, the right word of part where the lines are between a partner and someone who's supporting you around some of the aspects of your disability. Yeah. Has that come up at all with your current relationship or previous relationships? And how do you kind of navigate that sort of dual relationship?

11:47

S8

Yeah, look a bit of both. I mean, I have disclosed to other partners in the past, and you can almost see a shift from them seeing you as an, you know, an attractive, independent sort of woman to someone who needs help. You know, I had to say to me that, you know, Oh, now I can see the vulnerability in you. And now that makes sense because you know, there are certain situations where you're not as confident and that sort of thing. And you know, I've had partners completely flip it on their head. They were just they were just now, you know, wanting to completely control what I did, you know, and check in on me and and guide me when I didn't need to be guided and, you know, over handle me and that sort of thing. And I think I've said to you in the past that, you know, if I wanted, if I wanted that, I'd employ a support worker, you know, and that's not what I want. So but it's tricky because sometimes I do need the help. It's a very fine line between wanting to be, you know, somewhat normal or sighted, you know, to someone who needs help and when you fiercely independent. And I've had my current partner say to me, You know, you just need to tell me when I can help you, because sometimes when he goes to help me, I'll I'll go, No, no, I don't need the help. And he's like, You need to kind of tell me, I can't read your mind. I need to know. And with my particular condition, I p it's very environmental, so someday I can function very, very well and some lighting conditions and other times I'm totally blind. So especially in the dark, it's really tricky. It's it's such a fine line, but I guess the answer is that it's just all about communication and it's about me letting my guard down, telling the truth. It took me a long time to even talk about my mobility needs, you know, around my dog and and that sort of thing.

13:21

S3

Adelina, thank you so much for coming on and being so generous with your experience and your insights around this. I was particularly struck by something you said right at the beginning around, you know, spending some time alone with yourself and deciding if being with someone is what you wanted, because I think that's a really good point to meet. You may not need anyone in that in that respect. So I'm I'm really glad that you made that point. But thank you so much for coming on, Adelina and most welcome and wonderful to talk to you.

13:47

S8

Take care. OK, thanks, guys.

13:51

S1

You're listening to nothing's off limits with Tess and Polly. Did you know Vision Australia runs Tally Link, a virtual social program that connects like minded people across a wide range of interest areas nationally, either through telephone or video conferencing? For more information go to Vision Australia dot org or call one 800 eight four seven four double six. Vision Australia Blindness Low Vision Opportunity I'd

14:16

S3

now like to introduce two guests Sarah Taylor and Namoi Malcolm Sarah and the more you have lived. Experience of online dating and code facilitate the Tele Link Group table for one, which provides information and insights about dating from a blindness and low vision perspective. Sarah Namoi Thank you so much for joining us today.

14:35

S9

Thanks for having me.

14:36

S10

Absolute pleasure.

14:37

S2

How does your low vision impacted much on your dating experience, Sarah? Would you like to get through

14:44

S9

this one where it counts? Interpersonal communication and chatting and getting to know people? I would say no. Practically like using apps and getting out and about. I would say it.

14:55

S10

So for me, dating as a person with vision loss was very interesting, one that started when I was 18. The hardest part of dating with a visual impairment or with double vision, as I had at that time, was probably just building my confidence, meet people and to demonstrate that I was worthy of being dated.

15:15

S2

What are some ways that you can engage with confidence when you're meeting someone for the first time, but make sure that you're feeling safe?

15:22

S10

Namoi Look, I would say that to engage with other people, you first need to be engaging to mount smiling at people. It's about making people feel like you are approachable. And then it's probably about taking that shot, feeling comfortable and confident and saying hello. Some people like to use that are funny anecdotes. Some people like to wear things that give the person you want to talk to. Something to talk about. Something to open the conversation with, which is a lot of reason why. If you're a dog user or a cane user, that's what people open with, because it's something you've given them to talk to you about.

16:00

S2

Because starting a conversation, you know, especially with one who isn't particularly chatty, it's really not fun, is it? I've had the experience of meeting a couple of women who I've just instantly clicked with, and then the experience of meeting with a woman who basically sat there with monosyllabic answers. So it's always good. It sounds like if it's something to start the conversation, what do you think, Sarah?

16:21

S9

I think it's about having your confidence, having your own skills up so you feel confident to walk in there and leave with confidence. I think for me, having being familiar with the venue, kind of knowing your area kind of gives me that confidence, being able to trust yourself that you can handle the situation

16:39

S2

and having a familiar venue. Could that be like a café or a bar or around people that you've met before?

16:47

S9

Sure. For me, I prefer kind of coffee dates, so daytime date. So it's a bit easier and there's more people around and I just feel safer and more casual and Namoi.

16:57

S2

What indicators can you use to tell if a date is going well?

17:01

S10

Well, I think there are two types of indicators that the indicators that you're giving us and the indicators that you're picking up on. So the indicators that may help you to know if the date is going well, the indicators that you're giving off are things like, are you feeling tense? You know, are you having those racing thoughts in your mind? Are you having those butterflies in your stomach? What's your gut saying to you? Your gut saying this is going well and the things that you might be listening for, you might be listening for whether or not the person is laughing, whether or not the person is engaged with you, whether or not the conversation is flowing. It might also be listening for cues like the person is looking away or their voice. If you're someone who has no vision, their voice may be looking after the left or to the right or down looking for those sort of cues that tell you that maybe they're not as engaged as they could be. All in all, I think the best thing to do is simply to ask, you know, you might say something like, I'm having a great time and I hope that you are to test will.

18:04

S2

I'm certainly having a fantastic time with this interview. It sounds like there's a lot of non visual cues that can be given to how much somebody is laughing, how much they're participating in the conversation. It's never good if it's a one sided conversation, is it? But how important would you say body language is Sarah?

18:22

S9

Yeah, I think it's really important your own body language and how you're coming across and also their body language and how they're coming across. There's non visual like those little touches or little giggles or how close they fit into you. Body language can also affect confidence. Be aware of how, how you're sitting and listening to how they're moving and negotiating their space.

18:44

S10

That's it's also really important to remember, however, that body language can be different for different cultures. So if you are dating someone who is a different culture to you and your observing body language that you might find questionable, maybe they're not looking at you. Maybe they're not close to you. You might just use a verbal communication to check in.

19:06

S2

So, Sarah, you have you experienced online dating apps? And if so, how have you found them? Have they been accessible?

19:15

S9

Well, for me, with the technology I use, I use all Apple products. I use the Zoom feature, the narrator picture. So for me, being my vision, that's all I need to access those kind of apps. I know we've had one participant in the table for one group, the site at some and not very accessible, but then others are so seems that what technology are using and how you use it?

19:39

S2

What about you, Namoi? What's been your experience with online dating apps? Have they been accessible?

19:44

S10

Tess, I'm a bit of a dinosaur. The last online dating app I used involved smoke signals on a rock. I have been out of the dating game for quite some time, so I don't unfortunately have any knowledge about online apps other than to say it really depends on how you use them. Some people who I've spoken to have found that using them as a means to put yourself out there and attracts people works is because you're able to then view their profiles once they've accepted your like or swipe or whatever the word is you use these days. While other people use it just as a as an advertisement tool, so they might put up their photos, they might get someone to assist them to build their profile so that they have a pool of people to work with later on.

20:38

S3

So can I throw in just a rogue question? Here's the scenario you're on a date with someone. Let's say it's in a cafe, you've got a coffee, you're not getting any good vibes from them. It's just tumbleweed talking crickets, I believe you say in Australia. How do you get out of that situation if you're saying not, this is really not going anywhere?

20:56

S9

Well, it has happened on one date, although I think he was interested, but I was there and he mentioned the prospect of a second date. And I'm like, No, thank you very much. It's been nice and you're lovely, but no thank you. I won't have a second date, so it kind of just naturally the carousel.

21:16

S3

So just just be honest, then.

21:19

S9

Yeah, just be honest. It's like you might. What are you afraid of?

21:23

S10

Usually, Sarah and I disagree quite often on these things, but this time we are in agreement. I think it's best to respect yourself and your time and the other person's time. So if you're really not feeling it, you might just politely leave. If you are someone who maybe feels less confident about politely leaving, you might set yourself up with a friend to give you a call about halfway through your date, just so you can pretend to have a way out for dinner. You might pull out your phone and pretend that vibrated in your pocket. And oh, I've got to go. My cat's on fire.

22:01

S3

I knew you'd have

22:02

S9

something for us, Nimoy's

22:04

S10

whatever works for you. I think the most important rule is that if you're feeling unsafe or this just isn't for you, it's best to speak up.

22:12

S2

You guys are the co facilitators of Table for one. Can you tell us a little bit about that and why you decided to facilitate it?

22:22

S9

I think I found myself in this position of online dating at this stage, and I thought it would be nice to surround myself with a community of people who are kind of experienced a similar situation. Just find out the different strategies that people are using and see if we could swap stories and hear what's going on and see what works for some people and hopefully share that advice with others and nimmo.

22:44

S2

You also could facilitate it. How have you found and what has been the response from people who are blind or have low vision?

22:51

S10

Or I had the pleasure of co facilitating the first table for one group? What's there? But now I I no longer do Sarah fly solo. She's she's kicked me out. But the reason why I wanted to co facilitate table for one was simply because at Vision Australia, we say that we want to help people who are blind or who have the vision to participate in every part of life that they choose. And I think building relationships is a really important part of living a great life. And so I wanted to. While I don't have all the answers. Create a forum where people could share those answers. We could celebrate together or commiserate with each other.

23:34

S2

I had no idea what I was doing when I first started dating, so much so that I joined a website called The Pink SOFA, which got, you know, I mean, I had no idea how to use it. I had no idea how to, you know? All I knew was it was a lesbian dating site. I didn't know more than that. So say that you. Talking to a real rookie of the dating world, what would be your main advice?

23:55

S10

Find out what it is you feel you bring to our relationship. Confidence is about knowing what it is you have to offer. There's nothing more boring than asking someone what they do for fun. And I don't know. It's it's I think if you don't know what you have to offer, then you probably shouldn't be dating. You should be spending time getting to know yourself, appreciate yourself. And and dare I say it, love yourself. And then when you enter into a relationship with someone, they don't have to be your everything because you are your everything, and they're just a great addition.

24:32

S2

What's your take on this and what would be your advice for a dating rookie?

24:36

S9

This is been one of those occasions where in the moment I disagree because I think it's always good to learn on the job, so I would encourage people to get out there and try it. Do your research first, though we did in Table four when we did a whole session on slang used in dating apps. So there's all these abbreviations you'd need to kind of find out what they mean or they can get you into trouble. So do some research. Find out what you need to include in your profile. Your pictures are important. Get out there and give it a go and have fun.

25:07

S10

Also also consider why you're wanting to date. That makes the whole dating process a whole lot easier. Are you wanting to date casually? Are you looking for your Mr. Right or Mrs. Right? Or are you looking for your Mr. or Mrs. right now? Decide that before you start dating

25:26

S2

now, I would say that it's probably a really good idea, not to mention a whole list of obscure references to British comedies that nobody's heard of. That's something I kind of like. You know,

25:37

S3

I it's the wrong elements,

25:40

S9

guys.

25:40

S2

It's just been the biggest pleasure it really has. It's been wonderful to chat to you both and hear all your insights, sometimes agreeing with each other, sometimes disagreeing. I think it's more fun when we disagree. Thank you so very much for being with us today. Thank you.

25:57

S10

Absolute pleasure.

25:58

S3

And this is just the start of the conversation about dating. More information and some useful resources can be found on the Vision Australia websites, including an interview with guest and friends of the show Sara Taylor, who gives her five dating tips for people who are blind or have low vision, and I'll try and persuade her to share that list of dating app abbreviations as well.

26:19

S2

Remember this episode in earlier episodes of Nothing's Off Limits is available to download from the Vision Australia website. Just go to Vision Australia dot org. That's Vision Australia dot org type. Nothing's off limits into the search engine, and you will be directed to our wonderful web page where you can check this episode out and other episodes. And please do subscribe because you don't want to miss any or you can just tune in Division Australia Radio if that involves less internet searching. Because, you know, we all know we don't like having to search for things very often.

26:49

S3

And next time we'll be talking about adult services and entertainment, so shoo the kids out of the room for that one. We've got a couple of great guests who you may recognize from earlier episodes of this podcast, but until then, thank you again to our fantastic guests and thank you for joining us for the show. When nothing's off limits.

27:13

S1

That was nothing's off limits. Made with a supporter of his in Australia and the endless information linkages capability building grants. Learn more about our radio and podcast offerings by visiting VOA Radio, dot org and access all there is to know about our range of client services via our website. Vision Australia dot org. We thank everyone who participated in this episode, but especially you for listening today. We rely on your support, so please share this podcast with just one person today and brighten our day or rate us on your preferred podcast platform. Bye for now.