A chat with Jennifer Scoullar

3CR ID 0:00

Thanks for downloading a 3CR podcast. 3CR is an independent community radio station based in Melbourne, Australia. We need your financial support to keep going. Go to www dot three cr.org.au. For more information and to donate online now, stay tuned for your 3CR podcast.

Program ID 0:20

Brainwaves. Hear the world differently, bringing community mental health to you, raising awareness and challenging stigma. Tune in to 3CR community radio, Wednesdays at 5pm. Melbourne's drive time radio program featuring community organisations, powerful stories and information. Find us@brainwaves.org.au - proudly sponsored by well ways Australia.

3CR announcement 0:47

I would like to begin by paying my respects to the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation, who are the traditional custodians of the land on which I am coming to you from today. Land where it brain waves we tell our stories, and land where the traditional custodians have told their stories for many, many years before us, and continue to tell their stories.

Flic Manning 1:10

I would like to pay my respects to elders past and present and acknowledge all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander listeners who are listening today. Hello and welcome to Brainwaves on 3CR, 855 AM on your dial, via the app or the online stream. My name is Flic Manning, I'm your host, and joining me on the show today is one of Australia's treasured, best-selling authors of Australian Rural fiction. She lives with her family on a small property in West Gippsland, and she started her first novel as a child - and all her life, she's ridden and bred horses. In particular, she has a big background with stock horses. 

Jennifer writes page-turning stories set in and around Australia's magnificent wild places. She has 11 published novels, including the best selling Brumby's Run and the historical adventure series, The Tasmanian Tales. Jennifer, welcome to the show.

Jennifer Scoullar 2:01

Thank you very much for having me, absolute pleasure.

Flic Manning 2:04

So Jennifer, we always like to start our show by asking our guests the same question, because we think it derives such a nuanced answer. So I'm going to pose it to you. The question is, what does the term mental health mean to you?

Jennifer Scoullar 2:20

Well, I think it's about balance and connection, being able to cope with life's ups and downs, and connect meaningfully with other people, I don't think, and also finding some kind of peace within yourself. It's not necessarily about being always happy or calm. It's it's about having the tools and support to to move through difficult challenges, yeah, and emotions.

Flic Manning 2:53

That's a great way of putting it. I think it's all encompassing, and I think you've covered that very, very well. I love the holistic nature to that and knowing that you need support. So for you, what would that support look like, if you're thinking about mental health supports? What things have you got in place?

Jennifer Scoullar 3:08

Oh, well, I think for me, it's... being connected to the land I... and being with the horses and writing. They're... my therapies. They're... what make me... happy and make me calm, and make... and ground me.

Flic Manning 3:32

Yeah, beautiful. We're here all the time to get out in nature when it when we are talking about our well being. But I think a lot of people don't fully understand exactly what that means, but you have so much contact with it, and it's so present in your writing. In fact, your new book, Wild Horses, that's coming out, it's very clear that you have a connection to both animals and the land - in particular, Australian land as well. So you clearly have that affection for horses and animals in general. Did that actually inspire you to write this book? Or what was the inspiration behind it?

Jennifer Scoullar 4:07

Well, I think the inspiration behind this book was partly to do with one of my own horses we had. There's an equine character in wild horses called lofty, and he was inspired by our real life lofty my son, Matt, rescued a wild ex-racehorse from the kill pens at [?A]... and I was... a bit worried, because I was thinking, Well, why is this horse there? Like, could... will he be dangerous? Is there a problem? Well, he, my son and he, just connected immediately. And Matt spent many years riding the mountains with Lofty and they just, they had an amazing bond. And we lost Lofty... last year. And so I, you know, I was very... sad about that, and I thought that I would bring him back to life through the pages of this book. 

But the other, the other thing that's inspired it is understanding how horses and nature in general can can make us... more ourselves. Can connect that, connect us to ourselves. You know, in this fast paced world that we live in, many people never even touch the earth. You know, they can go for weeks with never, never touching the earth. And you know, if you're with horses, you're necessarily outside. So that's a very good start. And you know, it's been proven that, pardon me, that being being in nature and being outdoors, being in forests, being in wide open spaces, is... helpful. It's positive for our mental health, and it can and I think that's why horses and being outside is something which can help anxiety and depression and, yeah, just make us feel better about ourselves.

Flic Manning 6:16

I love the way that you spoke about how being with animals or being with horses, I guess in particular, allows for a deeper connection with yourself. And so I think very often we feel quite disconnected in this world because we're so busy doing a million things. And like you said, we never even get our feet on the ground, let alone that's right, doing anything else, which is such a shame. And so we become somewhat disconnected from being inside our own body. So have you had experiences then, I guess, with horses, or maybe with lofty in particular, where that's taught you something about yourself that you didn't know before?

Jennifer Scoullar 6:56

Well, yes, with with horses, you have to be present, you... they take you for who you are at that moment - and Lofty, you know, had gone through some difficult times. He'd been... sent to the... knackery because he we found out later he... when we got the vet out, that he'd had a torn ligament and as a racehorse, that he was lame. But by the time he got to the knackery, it was probably six to eight weeks later where he went through the sales and everything else, he'd completely healed, but his his mental, his mentality, hadn't healed. He still didn't trust people. He.. yeah, he... needed a calm, confident presence around him more than my other horses, because none of my other horses had been through the sort of trauma that... Lofty had been through. 

So yeah, he... you had had to be really authentic with Lofty, because he sensed it. If you weren't, you can't fake anything around a horse, particularly a horse like... Lofty, he's just had an amazing spirit, and he it's like he could just tune into your... mind, and discover whether or not you were being... genuine.

Flic Manning 8:34

Wow, so that, I mean, that's very, very profound, isn't it? Just sort of, in a way, having to learn in a quick timeframe, I guess as you're approaching a horse or making the decision to approach a horse, you've got to really get in check with yourself and go, Well, am I really presently here? How am I feeling? Because the horse, you know horses, I guess, to a certain extent, like all wild animals, can be dangerous if they're feeling insecure or they're confused about what you're feeling around them, and all those kinds of things as well. 

And I guess having a rescue in particular that must have been quite present on your mind when you were bringing him into contact with your son, Matt, yes, and Matthew and he just clicked. And in the book, there's a young man who clicks with the fictional Lofty. He's not based on Matt, but Lofty is... and you painted him so beautifully, I must say, Jennifer, I felt the character of Lofty.

Jennifer Scoullar 9:36

That's lovely for you to say that. Yeah. But also, horses are prey animals. So even though all pets provide us with a form of unconditional companionship, and that eases loneliness and emotional distress, but being a prey animal means that horses are more sensitive of... to your energy and to your emotion. Yeah, so you know you need to, you need to be able to regulate your breathing. You need to be able to just, you need to just be. And it's an exercise in mindfulness being around horses, I always think.

Flic Manning 10:21

Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. It sounds as you're describing it. I'm deriving my own experiences of doing things like meditation and breath work and, you know, full body presence, which are obviously all mindfulness techniques, but that's what it sounds like. You have to really get into that zone with a horse, maybe more so, as you said, than our typical animals that we may consider for companionship, like dogs or cats, for example.

Jennifer Scoullar 10:45

Yeah, and as you say, horses are big and they can be dangerous. Lofty... our Lofty was... 17 hands, and that's a big, big horse. If he decided he didn't want to cooperate. You were in trouble. (LAUGHS)

Flic Manning 11:04

I guess at least it's a very clear, you know, outcome they a horse can tell you very clearly, more so maybe than a dog and cat can that... Okay, I'm not comfortable with you today. This isn't working for me, I don't feel sure about where you're at...

Jennifer Scoullar 11:22

Yeah, and it's instant. It is an instant reaction. You know, there's no delay, there's nothing, it's just... the horse reacting to you, as you are in that moment. And so, yeah, a friend of mine teaches mindfulness, and I... haven't, you know, I haven't been that interested in it or anything. But when I think about it, when I talk to her, she says, what you're doing, is you're practicing mindfulness. You just don't know it. (LAUGHS)

Flic Manning 11:54

Exactly. I mean, there's a lot of activities I think that people do day to day, they probably don't realise that they're they're almost in a state of meditation, or they're in a state of something just because they are being aware of their breath, like you said, and having to really be in check with their feelings and things like that. For you, do you find that working with a horse means that you, I guess, in that moment, can separate from any of the things that may be bothering you? Do you sort of just park them to the side so you can be present with the horse, or as you're actually experiencing riding a horse or working with a horse, are you also mentally processing those things at the same time?

Jennifer Scoullar 12:31

No, that... they disappear. Any concerns or worries I have, even if I've, even if they've been going over and over in my mind, and I can't imagine forgetting about them. Once I'm with the horse, it just sweeps it away. So, yeah, that you know that horse, being with the horses, is definitely therapy for me, I think, and I can't imagine being without them.

Flic Manning 12:58

Yeah, that's beautiful. You found something obviously so early on, that has clicked with you at that fundamental level, and you get to continue that work today. That's amazing.

Jennifer Scoullar 13:08

Yeah, it's a lifelong love and and as you say, maybe I figured it out very early. (LAUGHS)

Flic Manning 13:16

And it's great that you did. I hope that everyone listening sort of... hasn't a moment to sort of sit back and maybe observe their life and just sort of think, yeah, What are the things that I might be doing that are already, sort of mindfulness without even knowing, that I'm actually practicing things? What things bring me joy or comfort?

Jennifer Scoullar 13:33

Yes, what things bring you joy? Yep. We... as we grow up, we tend to forget what brings us joy sometimes. So, you know...

Flic Manning 13:45

Gosh, that is a good point, isn't it? Yeah, do you think that's just because we get so caught up in the minutia of day to day, or because we're so busy trying to achieve our goals? What do you what do you think that is for you?

Jennifer Scoullar 13:58

Well, I'm not sure. It didn't happen to me. I mean, I when you see a child watching ants in the backyard, or, you know, following a bird fleeting through the trees and with a sense of wonder. I never lost that. And sometimes when I in my Tasmanian tales books, I write from the point of view of a Tasmanian tiger in one and of a dog in another. And people, when that people realized that I was doing that, they asked me, was I writing children's books? And it always amazes me that... why, why do you have to be writing children's books when you write from the point of view, or you were empathetic, empathetic to the natural world? So it never happened, I never lost that. 

And you know, I've had my difficulties. I've been divorced, and I've had, you know, mental health challenges and difficulties, but... being able to get back to that childlike joy, you know, is a safety net for me.

Flic Manning 15:08

Hmm. What a wonderful point and a brilliant thing for people to start thinking about a little bit. If they're pondering where they're at in life, or they're sort of feeling stagnant or stuck, or any of those kinds of things, it's, yeah, what does bring you joy and... sometimes I think it's the simple things. It really is. It's getting back to nature. It's doing the things that you know bring you comfort. It's being grounded and present, and not being too concerned about all the fluff...

Jennifer Scoullar 15:35

(LAUGHS) Yeah.

Flic Manning 15:35

All of the fluff on the outside that we are so busy looking at rather than the things that really count, and you've highlighted that so beautifully. Let us all take that away, if we're listening - let's find that wonder and nurture it inside ourselves. It doesn't have to be just until you become an adult. You can carry that with you throughout life.

Jennifer Scoullar 15:55

Sure Tom.

Flic Manning 15:58

If you're just tuning in, this is Brainwaves on 3CR. I'm FlicManning, and today my guest is Jennifer Scoullar, best-sellingauthor of australian rural fiction - who you may know from novels like Brumby's Run, and her new book Wild Horses is out in the wild. Jennifer, writing can be considered a solo sport for a lot of people. Do you think that has presented any mental health obstacles for you as going through your career in this?

Jennifer Scoullar 16:25

Oh, not really, not for me... the solitude of writing is a comfort for me. I'm an introvert at heart, so I enjoy my own company, and living on a farm gives me the space and quiet that you know that I need to think and reflect and create. So, yeah, I mean, there are moments of self-doubt when you're writing, of course... but yeah, it can be a powerful tool for processing your emotions and finding clarity, too. So, you know, introverts love writing.

Flic Manning 17:03

Very, very true, very true. I'm a writer myself, so I fully understand that, and I agree it's not always a bad thing to have solitude. I think we often think that it is, or maybe people think that when they're spending time on their own, or they've been taught when they're spending time on their own, it's a bad thing. This is, is not a good sign that you're spending time on your own. But I think a lot of people do require that for recharge - and just to kind of sit in being themselves and understanding themselves. And it's really good to hear a writer say that it actually brings them comfort, that solitude, as opposed to it being sort of a misery and a torture - which, you know, sometimes goes with that idea of what being an author is, is that sort of tortured personality in a dark room tapping away at a typewriter or a keyboard and... you know...

Jennifer Scoullar 17:49

Yeah. Well, for extroverts, maybe that's the case. I don't know, but certainly not for me.

Flic Manning 17:55

Yeah, that's good to hear. That's good to hear. Now you're you started, obviously, writing very, very young. And I believe that you have actually written about this, and you've said... One day, out of the blue, I picked up a pen, it was like I'd come home. So you started writing, then you ventured off into a whole different career, and then you came back to writing, I believe. So...

Jennifer Scoullar 18:19

That's right.

Flic Manning 18:19

What... do you really understand that moment of what made you bring... decide to pick up the pen? Or where did that start for you in early childhood?

Jennifer Scoullar 18:26

Well, when I was a little girl, I always knew that I'd grow up to be a writer, but then, you know, things change. Life gets in the way, and... I studied law, and I forgot about writing. Yeah, I wasn't... I mean, I enjoyed... my law work. I worked for the National Crime Authority to start with... and then I worked for legal aid because I found the National Crime Authority, prosecuting, I didn't like prosecuting people. But then I with legal aid, I saw a lot of human struggles, and... I, you know, the work was important and it was challenging, but it also burnt me out. I saw too much. I was starting to lose empathy. 

And one day I saw a little wasp, a little wasp, a European wasp, which is a pest, sitting on my window sill. And I stopped and I looked at it, and I thought, That's... quite beautiful. You know... the tiger stripes and the perfection of its form. And so I sat down and I started writing a book about from the point of view of a woman who had a European wasp in her garden, and the wasp had its own point of view... and I just loved it. I absolutely loved it (LAUGHS) and I found that sense of purpose and creativity that I didn't even know I was missing. So yeah, so I was completely hooked, then. It was transformative for me and I... it reminded me who I really was, even though it was such a strange, quirky little book, I just loved writing. It is still one of my favourites.

Flic Manning 20:35

How beautiful that that... moment of nature, that little, tiny flicker of beauty drew out of, yes, already there.

Jennifer Scoullar 20:44

It's... incredible. I'm still amazed by it.

Flic Manning 20:49

Yeah... people are often fascinated by, you know, where does the creativity come from? And I think sometimes it's just, it just shows up. It just appears in front of you somehow.

Jennifer Scoullar 21:00

It must have been dwelling inside me, and I wasn't aware of it, and that was the straw that broke the camel's back...for my legal career.

Flic Manning 21:11

And boy, are we glad that that happened, Jennifer, because your books are just stunning. They just really take you to a whole other place. And you know, so while I'm very glad that you had your legal career, I'm so glad that you found your way into writing, we're all the better for it. So...

Jennifer Scoullar 21:30

Thank you very much.

Flic Manning 21:34

Welcome back to Brainwaves on 3CR. I'm Flic Manning, and today my special guest is author Jennifer Scoullar. Jennifer, what kind of impact are you hoping to make with your latest book, Wild Horses?

Jennifer Scoullar 21:44

Well, I think that I... the impact I'd like to make is people to consider that... fresh starts, that everybody deserves a fresh start, and everybody deserves a second chance... Yeah, and I think that I want people to think about, what is it for them that they, why they think that they've reached a dead end, and what... how could they get around that obstacle? And that, you know, finding love and second chances... in unusual, unexpected places, of course, and... yeah.

And also, of course, I'd like people to consider how important it is to re-home off-the-track thoroughbreds, because... I want to raise awareness to the value of these horses. Often, you know, often they're discarded after their racing career. They just... often they're killed. And they have so much to offer still. And that same as applies to people, they often have... if they think they're on the scrap heap, they don't realise how much they still have to offer, and sometimes it just takes the right environment to help them thrive again. So yeah, if only one reader reads my book and and decides to go for it, go for their second chance, then I'll be happy.

Flic Manning 22:13

What a beautiful sentiment, Jennifer - yeah, I couldn't agree with you more on that. I think a lot of the time, whether it's by nature or nurture, or whether it's a cultural thing, I don't know what people are being exposed to, per se, it's deeply nuanced, but I think people maybe start one career and then feel like that's all they're supposed to do for the rest of their life. And if they fall out of love with their career and want to try something else, they are filled with shame about it. The same with, you know, relationships breaking down that they had hoped would be their forever thing, or whatever pathway they're on. For some reason, sometimes people need to change direction, and it's actually... not just okay, sometimes it's wonderful, and it's the exact thing you're supposed to do. 

And same with those horses. What a lovely sentiment to you there. I agree with you. I have such a such misgivings about what happens to these beautiful horses when they end their careers, and I'm really glad to hear you talking about that too, they clearly do have so much to offer the world and human beings, if you're willing to put in the time and the effort to get to know them.

Jennifer Scoullar

Well, yes... I think I might have dedicated the book to the rescues that re-home... off-the-track thoroughbreds. And of course, my experience with Lofty just made me very passionate about it. That's why I can't watch the Melbourne Cup anymore.

Flic Manning

I have to say I'm with you on that Jennifer, I... really, really struggle with it. I really, really do I understand the entertainment value for some people, but I just look at those beautiful horses and can't stop thinking about the reality of their lived experience. And so it's my hope that more and more people become interested in horses off the track - and really, you know, get to work on making sure that they're being looked after. Because clearly, as is demonstrated by, you know, not just your book Wild Horses, but your own experiences that you've had with horses, they can be profoundly important for mental well-being, and they they just have so much character. Why wouldn't we invest our time and love in them?

Jennifer Scoullar 25:41

Yes.

Flic Manning 25:43

So Jennifer, we have to wrap up our time on the show, but I just wanted to end with one last little question for you... for anyone that may be at home or driving home at the moment listening to this show that is sitting in... that point, like you said, where they're thinking about maybe their second chance or trying something new, or they're sitting in a relationship or a career that they're not super happy with right at the moment... and they just wondering, Where is that little moment of inspiration going to come from? How are they going to take that next step? You clearly have done this. So can you give them a little nugget of wisdom?

Jennifer Scoullar 26:20

Well, I think what you said before is key to it. Remember what brought you joy. Go back in your life. Go back - it might be a long way. It might not be that far. And remember the last time that you were happy and present and joyful. It might be music. It might be... in my main character's case, in Wild Horses, it's drama that she's passionate about. It could be anything. It could be needlework. It could be anything, but go back to that time, and then have a think about how your life has diverged from that - and see if there's a, see if you can, yeah, see if you can forge a new direction which will take you closer to what used to bring you joy. And it's possible. It's very possible. Yep.

Flic Manning 27:14

Yeah, absolutely. There you go. So anyone listening is always hope for something new, something better, something different. Life is full of experiences. Let's all take a leaf out of one of many of Jennifer's beautiful books, and just take a chance on what it is that you actually want, and nurture the things that bring you joy - and if that's nature, especially, especially that. Jennifer, thank you so much for spending some time with us on the show. I know so many people will have got a lot out of this.

Jennifer Scoullar 27:43

Thank you.

Flic Manning 27:45

Now, anyone listening, please make sure you do go out and grab a copy of Jennifer's book, Wild Horses - and while you're at it, get the whole collection of incredible novels, there's 11. Maybe spend some time with a horse if you can have access to it, or do some research on how you can support organisations who take care of horses after they've had their on-track career. You can also follow Jennifer on Facebook. Her handle is Jen Scoullar, are or via her website, Jennifer Scoullar dot com. 

As always, I want to remind you that your mental health is of equal importance to your physical health. So if you've yet to nurture both today, let's bring them into alignment now with a nice big inhale... a lovely big exhale... and remember to shower yourself in the kindness that you so easily give to others. I look forward to joining you next time on Brainwaves.

3CR ID 28:39

You've been listening to a 3CR podcast, produced in the studios of independent community radio station 3CR in Melbourne, Australia. For more information, go to all the Ws dot 3CR dot org dot AU.