Sue from Blue Knot

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Mark 0:19
I would like to begin by paying my respects to the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation, who were the traditional custodians of the land on which I am coming to you from today. Land where it brainwaves we tell our stories, and land where the traditional custodians have told their stories for many, many years before us and continue to tell their stories. I would like to pay my respects to elders past and present, and acknowledge all Aboriginal and Torres, Strait Islander listeners who are listening today.

Program ID 0:51
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Mark 1:18
Just a warning in today's show, we will be discussing sexual abuse. So if this is confronting for you or distresses you then please tune out. Hello and welcome to brainwaves on three CR, 8:55am, three CR, digital radio and three cr.org.au. My name is Mark, and joining me today, we have Sue - an ambassador from the Blue Knot Foundation. Today we're going to be talking to her about her role in the blue knot foundation and her lived experience of CPTSD and the work she's engaged in as a lived experience peer worker. So Hi Sue, thanks for joining us today.

Sue 2:01
Hi Mark, thanks for asking me along.

Mark 2:03
So I guess first of all, I was hoping you could tell us a little bit about the Blue Knot Foundation and how you got involved with that organization.

Speaker 1 2:12
Yeah, sure. So I look, I think it was maybe 2018 I heard about a workshop that they were doing in Melbourne, and I went along to the full day walk workshop, and I was really impressed. It was largely about trauma, and as a victim survivor of childhood sexual abuse, I found I was really struggling with things like disassociation, and they explained it really well. I found it was really professional, and I felt really I learned a bit about trauma informed care. So, yeah, it sort of started from there, and then I think probably a couple of few years later, I saw something advertised for lived experience ambassadors to basically tell their story when needed. In order to educate people about many things to do with sexual abuse

Mark 3:02
as an ambassador, could you tell me some of the activities you've been a part of with blue knot or other organizations, and can you explain why this practice is important to you in this space?

Sue 3:16
Yeah, sure. So I'm a mental health advocate as well. So advocating for mental health and getting people to realize that often people with mental health conditions comes from childhood trauma, whether it be domestic violence or sexual abuse or whatever. It's often related. So that's largely my interest, which I started doing in about 2017 I started with voices for change, which was an education program through our local community center. It was a 12 week course, and we were able to tell our story in order to empower others to find ways to not move on but move forward with their healing journey. I've also been so with blue knot. I've basically been asked for various different engagements to tell my story like I am now. And with other engagements, I became in my own regional town in western Victoria, I became part of the Suicide Prevention place based trial, which was all across the state, and I was part of the working groups initially, and then part of the leadership group and governance group, and that went for a few years and was really empowering. We had different groups going on, men's groups, women's groups, a lot of survivors wrote in a book that was produced by headspace, and part of that was an emerging scene, a theme was childhood sexual abuse and how they resolved their trauma. Currently, I'm one of the tri chairs for the Department of Health. I worked through Vimeo on some engagements as well for mental health. And again, it's an emerging theme that trauma and sexual abuse come. Up so things like suicide prevention in CO design groups and improving sexual safety in inpatient units. And I'm a advocate with volunteer Victoria Disability Advisory Group, but one of the main things I was involved in with CO design was social prescribing, where I'm still working as one of the PCG tri chairs a lot, as the consumer lived experience, along with a carer lived experience, and one of the members from the Department of Health. I'm really passionate about this, because I have found social engagement in my own life has been really healing. So it was something I was quite passionate about.

Mark 5:39
You mentioned something called social prescribing, that is a part of your practice. Could you describe what that is?

Sue 5:45
Yeah, sure. So social prescribing, it's a model of care to support people who are facing loneliness and social isolation, and that can be often aged, can often be mental health issues. It can often give people with trauma, and it connects people to groups of their interest via a link worker, so they have an interview with a link worker. And that connects to to certain services. And that may be within neighborhood, community houses. It might be separate groups. It might be made up through the service. And basically, this is this in confidence building and finding a sense of purpose and meaning. Yeah, so it could be an art group, it could be anything, but it started in the UK, and it became really popular and successful there, and so now it's kind of spreading worldwide. How

Mark 6:34
would you contrast the support a survivor of complex trauma would receive from a peer compared to the support they might receive from traditional therapies?

Sue 6:44
Yeah, right, that's a good question. So I believe that both can be beneficial, and I'll certainly use both in my recovery. However, with lived experience peers, they have the additional benefit of experiencing what you may have gone through, and also can have ideas on what worked from them. So I've largely worked, mostly worked with peers through my co-design work. And it's, it's been fantastic, like they're just wonderful to work with.

Mark 7:12
Could you actually also describe what co-design looks like for people that might not understand what co-design is?

Sue 7:20
Yeah, sure. So, for example, with the recommendations in the mental health reform, they have a particular recommendation for something, and it requires, what it was, sort of mandatory, to have lived experience on there. And so that person who's been through that experience, they would ask for lived experience. So you might have something like, for example, something that's to do with an inpatient unit. You'd have clinicians on that working group. You would have people that have been an inpatient in a psychiatric hospital. You'd have a psychiatrist and all a whole different lens, and everybody putting their input in. And it's actually really good. It's giving me a whole different insight on the different things that people do within the mental health system... yeah before

Mark 8:04
Before getting involved with organisations like Blue Knot Foundation, what are some of the ways people struggling with complex trauma have coped with managing strong feelings or emotional regulation in place of formal supports like the ones that you just described.

Speaker 1 8:20
Yeah, right. So I can really only answer for my own lived experience, but I was abused at during a teenage years, and I didn't have great coping mechanisms at all. I grew up in the family of an alcoholic mother and a very absent father, so I didn't really have very good strategies or people to talk to. So I turned to substance abusing, and that was really quite quick, and then it was kind of over by the time I was 15, but it was I didn't have any care for my body, and when that was resolved, I then turned to eating disorders. And I probably been through my life the last episode would have been when I went to court. I had an episode anorexia. And yeah, it was kind of an emerging theme that if something really stressful came up, I would fall back on unhealthy behaviors, behaviors for myself. So I was taught methods such as grounding. I've got much better ways to cope now. And I was taught this through I think it's cars are actually and I practice this in a couple of ways. So I use the five to one meditation, which could be done in three minutes, if you're starting to feel really unregulated and feel like you you're not really in touch with your own body. And it's basically you're sitting down, taking a few deep breaths, and start looking around at five things that you can see and four things that you can hear, three things that you can feel, and then two that you can smell and one that you can taste. And the idea is that by the end of it, you're feeling much more. Inside your body, if that makes sense. And much more present, you're not thinking of the future. You're not thinking of the past. I also use sense when walking. So if I start feeling I've got a dog that's quite reactive, and when I walk in the bush, if we see other people, I start getting quite anxious. And I can just grab a handful of fresh eucalyptus leaves and crush them up and breathe them in. And that makes me feel more present, present, and gives me an idea, okay, I need to get off the path now, because she's about to go ballistic. I swim laps. Daily exercise is a huge part of my it's not so much staying healthy for me. It's it's something that I can use that anxious energy and just go and release it. And so I swim laps quite often. I practice yoga. I'm a kayaker, so I'll just, you know, I'm quite close to a lake, so I'll just get out there in the kayak. I use watercolors, and I do ceramic classes and practice drawing. I'm not very good at any of those things, but that doesn't matter. It's all about the process that's that keeps me grounded. I also try and join groups in my local community, usually through neighborhood houses where I can make connection with others. And I've also got pets now, pets are a great grounding tool. And look, I was thinking about what changed my behavior when I was a teenager the other day, and my parents bought me a Shetland Sheep Dog, and from then on, I was just we'd always had pets, but this was something to keep me here. It was something I was responsible for. It loved me unconditionally and I was responsible. So, yeah, it made a huge difference in my life.

Mark 11:36
At what age do people tend to identify that their past experiences were were traumatic, and are there people who don't automatically connect the way that they're feeling or struggling in life as a result of past trauma?

Sue 11:52
Yeah, definitely. So I was also a victim of domestic violence. My father was not so much physically abusive, but very, very much emotionally abusive and financially abusive with my mother, and I don't think it was till my own children were going through I had a son that was a white ribbon Ambassador through his school, and he actually pointed out some things to me that I just had not realized. So I definitely did not realize that I had a family that was in that cycle. For myself, I started having distressing trauma flashbacks. I pretty much blocked everything that happened to me from maybe 16 or 17. I just didn't think about it. It was behind a wall. And I guess I was at around 36 when I started having a solid eight years of flashbacks and memories, you know, they started becoming solid memories that were really distressing, and they come out of the blue. I'd just be walking along and see say something, which was a trigger, and then I'd be back at the age of 14 in that particular it was, it was pretty typical PTSD, and it was probably took a couple of years before I actually sought help for it and was diagnosed. And then I was 40. I think I was. I was 43 When I reported one of the abusers. I had multiple abuse of different abuses, and that was pretty much from my son reaching the same age that my eldest son. I've got three sons. The eldest one reached the age that I was when I was abused, and I really started having problems with relating to him and very overprotective and that, that kind of thing, and I thought that reporting would resolve this.

Mark 13:31
Earlier in our conversation, you mentioned something called trauma informed care. Can you describe what trauma informed care is and what that means to you?

Speaker 1 13:41
Yeah, right. So for me, it means being in a really safe space that doesn't re traumatise myself. And so for if someone else is wanting to offer a safe space, you wanting to not re traumatize the victim survivor, and that can mean things like not asking too too much about their story that's going to put them back in that place. I'm very used to telling my story, and I'm okay with it, and I've got methods to manage it afterwards, but that took years. I'm it's 10 years since I went to court over my abuse, so I'm sort of in a different space, but you never know what sort of space somebody's in, so primarily offering a safe space, being consistent in care with boundaries to create trust with that person, giving people the opportunity to feel in control by not taking choices away from them. For example, if someone came to you and reported that they had a sexual abuse occur to them, it wouldn't be pushing them to go to the police and report it. It would be supporting them to get counseling help until they were ready if they ever want to report it, share decision making and working together in collaboration. So it's working together to support them and focusing on strength to empower the individual. So it's trying not to stay in that place of victim mode, which was I was putting. When I reported my abuse, the term for a victim, survivor was victim, and I was told I was victim so many times that took me a couple of years to get out of victim mode. And it's it's important to empower people to know that they'll move through that section of reporting in court or whatever, eventually a better place is going to come.

Mark 15:20
How might an individual identifier respond if a practitioner or medical professional providing them care isn't trauma informed?

Sue 15:30
Yeah, that one's really hard to answer, because there's, it feels like there's a power imbalance, like, for example, if you're if you're seeing a doctor, for example, or a particularly gynecological things can be a real issue for women, my suggestion would be to explain to the receptionist in that situation that you are a survivor of abuse and you're a little bit anxious about coming in. So it's all put on the table, and the doctors are aware, for example, but also to advise them, if they're interested in how to become more informed that there is training possible. And Blue Knot would probably be the place to contact for that.

Speaker 2 16:05
So for example, are there ways, are there any gynecologists who provide that information up front that they do have training around people coming in that do have the lived experience of complex trauma, and you know, know how to provide proper support for them during appointments. Does that exist?

Sue 16:25
It does. If you're within a hospital setting and you're seeing something through the public hospital system, they do have different Disability Advisory people that you can get in touch with and say, Look, this is my situation. I'm going to feel a bit anxious about this. The other thing would be to take somebody with a trusted person with you, but it is lacking in a lot of areas, particularly dental there. They may be getting better, but I know when I was looking for a trauma informed dentist, I did find one. I think they were in they would have been the city somewhere. So I'm in Victoria, and the cost added for this was huge. It was so expensive that it was just prohibitive, really. And, I mean, it's such a simple thing to learn, I feel that it doesn't warrant hundreds of dollars extra being added on. So I didn't use them. But I always tell my dentist when I go there that I'm quite anxious. And it's, I mean, if you think about it, when you're pinned down in a chair with tools in your mouth, it is a very disempowering position. I think it's a difficult thing to find out where there's trauma informed stuff, but I do think it's getting better, and I do think there'll be training for people that's more easy accessible, more easily accessible, particularly since the Royal Commission, that was one of the recommendations. So hopefully that will be pushed through.

Mark 17:37
Should people working outside the medical or counselling field also be trauma informed - for example, managers, colleagues, friends, family, or perhaps even people working in the support industry roles that don't actually provide support themselves?

Sue 17:53
Yes, I think that's I thought of some areas who are particularly dealing with vulnerable people, such as AOD hospitals, mental health units. Now you would assume that if you go to a mental health unit, that they're trauma informed, trained. That is due is rolling out, perhaps, but it is not. Some of these people have been working in there for years. It's not a given that they're going to be trauma informed Centrelink in the NDIS and all their associated, associated workers, support coordinators, support workers, they all should be trauma informed, yeah, because these people have been through trauma, so anyone that has an interest in it or is working with vulnerable people should assume that trauma informed care would be mandatory. Really. The other thing I thought of was courts. Everyone in the court system should be trauma informed absolutely everyone, and they're not, and I'm talking from top level down. Judges are probably the most untrauma informed people that I've ever met, and barristers solicitors. I really believe that defense lawyers understand trauma. They understand how it affects because they do their job quite effectively. And they their job is to make people go into a trauma response on the stand. So if everybody could be trained, that would be great.

Mark 19:08
Alright, so defence lawyers, you feel that they might utilise someone's trauma for their own sort of gain, in a way, to...

Sue 19:18
That's their job. So their job's to win a case, and they'll do it at any stage. So in my own particular court case, I had a high profile court case, and my perpetrator got guilty. And then on the appeal court case, because they appealed, it was an Appeal upheld, which means I the state didn't win. There wasn't they didn't prove it beyond reasonable doubt. And in the first court case, I was provided with a witness protection screen. I didn't want to remotely testify, and I testified really well. And in the second case, I was not allowed a mandatory witness protection screen. So it's in the legislation that when a childhood sexual abuse survivor or a. Domestic abuse survivor asked for a witness protection screen that they're given one, and the barrister for the state tried to get this pushed through. I have the court statement, the pre talk, and the judge would not allow it in his courtroom, so That immediately puts a survivor face to face with their perpetrator. And there's a big power imbalance when you've got a defense lawyer and a perpetrator sitting next to each other just looking at you and telling you, asking you these awful questions. So yeah, they're very aware that that's being trauma informed is to provide a safe space, and I wasn't provided a safe space at all, even I mean, they broke their own legislation.

Speaker 2 20:38
So you mentioned this earlier in our discussion, but... nearly a decade ago, final report into Institutional Responses of child sexual abuse was released in cases where abuse has occurred in such institutions. What in your view, is the relationship between achieving justice and the healing process?

Sue 21:00
Yeah, right. Again, this is going to be different for everybody. For me, with one of my or two of my institutions, I had two institutions and then separate abuse. It was important to go through the redress process, but it also was a really, difficult process to go through. I advise anyone who hasn't gone through it to make sure that they utilize the help that is available through the National Redress Scheme, because it is very useful for me, it was an apology which I haven't actually brought myself to be able to accept yet. So there's two institutions that I need to accept that from and redress is important. It's it's important to understand the financial costs that child sexual abuse burdens people with, both physically and mentally, and understand a lot of people can't work. They've gone through a lot of trauma that, yeah, their life is shortened often, and it's, yeah, it's difficult to get out of that. So they need to accept it and acknowledge it, and also ongoing counseling. But no redress is any good without changing the system. So they need to be have changed that system to ensure that it never occurs again to another child.

Mark 22:23
In your experience, what prompted you to disclose to the police what what had happened to you, and was justice a motivating factor in in that process?

Sue 22:32
Yeah, well, I've only reported one perpetrator, so justice wasn't a motivating factor at all. I was very naive on the process, and that was not because the police didn't go through it with me or tell me I just had in my mind that they would talk to the person, and that person would apologize and explain why I was abused, and that's not what happened at all, which they did warn me, would probably not happen. They would deny it, and there would be, there would be lying and all this sort of stuff. So it wasn't a motivating factor. What prompted me was ongoing triggers. I just had ongoing triggers. It was high profile, so I would see this person in the media, and also somebody moved nearby that that person knew, and I came in touch with them. And that was, it was just really difficult. So probably my PTSD prompted me, and as I said, my son reached an age where I thought I could resolve this and continue my parenting. And yeah, I just naively thought if you apologize and court wouldn't be needed. And I really, what I really wanted out of it was I wanted to know why, and that took years of research really into what happened and the gender of the person and why I was taken, and I kind of came to acceptance of what happened. That doesn't mean I forgave the person at all, but I came to acceptance. And when I came to acceptance, I was able to move forward with things that bought me joy a lot easier.

Mark 24:01
How did your friends and family respond when you disclose to them what happened?

Sue 24:06
Well, because it was a high profile, I didn't disclose to anybody, really until about two months, three months, maybe, before the court case. So I'd reported in 2013 and I went to court in 2015 and I lost 26 kilos in four months before the court case. So people were really asking, what's wrong? What's happening? And my mental state wasn't in any fit, really to be getting on a stand, but my father was pretty good at listening. My mother had died, never knowing. She died when I was 36 my immediate family was supportive. My husband was really good, but went into his own kind of stress mode. Is is an emergency services person and had a lot of stress in his own PT, PTSD, so he was quite stressed about it, and we were also trying to put. Accept the kids from knowing it all, but that wasn't possible. We would have the police coming around with subpoenas for us to go to court. And yeah, they just, they just want wondered what it was all about, or they found out. So it really affected them. And my friends were really good and very supportive. There was never, no belief there was a little bit of after court, occasional, you know, after a few years, oh, it's time to move forward and get over it now. And those people are probably not as friendly with anymore. It's just a it's not a thing to say, because some people never get over it, and other people can move forward with acceptance or find ways to find joy again. But it's not easy.

Mark 25:42
Are there any organisations and practitioners out there who can support someone who is finding it hard to disclose these types of experiences to friends and family?

Sue 25:52
Yeah, sure. So obviously Blue Knots, one each state has funded sexual abuse centres. So in Victoria, we have [?SC Casa or casa], and also, so you could call the one 800 respect number, which is 1-800-730-7732 and just you could talk to them, and they can advise you of what is nearby in your area.

Mark 26:18
And you've shared your story with other survivors. As a victim survivor, do you feel that sharing one story is helpful to the person sharing it and to others who might hear it?

Sue 26:30
Yeah, well, I shared my story to a minister to try and get some justice about not having a witness protection screen, and he actually used my story in a domestic violence survivors story, also to get a bill put through Parliament to stop de novo appeals, which a few years ago. And so de novo appeals are where you go through a court case and you might get a guilty verdict for the person, and then they appeal, and you've as a victim survivor, got to testify again. You've got to go through a cross examination again. And I believe now in Victoria, I'm not sure all states ever had them, but Victoria had them that they can now use the taped version of your first case to so you're not having to go through that trauma again. And so that was empowering, because it helps somebody else. The other thing, I guess, is that when I spoke in for voices of change, I was able to say, you know, when people are judging people with AOD issues, which I had substance abuse issues as a 13 year old, you need to realize that they often coming from a place of trauma, and that it's not the way to treat people really. So I've been a part of a council funded group that was the victim survivor photography group. I'm not sure how easy this book is to buy, but it's called Finding a light, and it's just various survivors photography that they took and they learnt a little bit about photography and had that connection. And at the end, it was a book made so that was really empowering, actually, yeah. And I've also, as I said, the mental health book, which has got a ton of survivors stories, share these stories. That was really good as well, to be able to share your story so others can. And I've read all the stories in there, and it is really empowering to hear other people's stories and how they've managed.

Mark 28:21
In your experience, what difficulties have you witnessed in relation to people getting the support they need?

Sue 28:27
I've got no experience of familial sexual abuse, but I have been in a lot of groups where I know that can really create a lack of support from other members of families, and divide families up can destroy families. I feel that I got a really good level of support, even through actually socket, they were really good with welfare checks and making sure that I was sort of okay. Yeah, so I felt like I got a great, a great deal of support from that myself, and also through Casa and, yeah, look, I still ended up in crisis after court, and I still had to fight through the recovery of anorexia. There were a lot of organisations that were able to help me. I think the important thing is when, when you've got friendships and people who aren't professionals helping you, I've noticed that people get a lot of empathy for fatigue, for non-visible disability, and it's like, well, it's been a couple of weeks now, so you should be okay, and that's not the case. So, and in saying that, look, I've got a yoga teacher in my regional town who, for 17 years has been amazingly supportive. And this person's running a business, she's, yeah, she's, she's really busy, so, yeah, it's, just been hugely supportive to me. So some people are amazing.

Mark 29:44
in your experience, if you don't mind me asking, what ways have you used to help manage the impact of complex trauma?

Sue 29:51
Yeah, right. Well, to manage my PTSD, I've been lucky enough to be able to utilize professional help. I've got a mental health OT. Who has helped me to regulate and come up with I have a lot of not memory problems, but I can, if I'm, for example, faced with a car accident, I can go into fight flight really easily, and it just feels like my working memory goes offline. So she gives me strategies to manage that. I've got a psychologist, as I said, I've also used exercise to remain physically and mentally switched on. So yeah, with my art and my exercise and my animals, walking my dog every day, I'm also practicing mindfulness, which sounds really cliche, but it actually works. I practiced it for five years, twice a day. I only practice for about eight minutes each session, and it makes me feel really connected and calm to get through my day. And I'm also a passionate gardener, so being outdoors, getting my feet and hands into the soil and just, you know, being present with my my gardening is really helpful.

Mark 30:56
When you see people with complex trauma being supported properly as a result, what positive changes can we see in the community?

Sue 31:04
I feel like when people are supported and feel connected to their community, whether it's to family or friends or in a group, they can feel really empowered and have a sense of community, of being part of something bigger and giving back to their community. So yeah, I feel like that's really empowering for people is to be accepted and be a part of their local community. And

Speaker 2 31:26
what are some strategies friends and family of victim survivors might use to support the people that they care about?

Speaker 1 31:32
I would answer this with... listen with compassion. Allow the person to speak and share feelings in particular. Don't bring up your own past trauma. Don't interrupt with or this happened to me or whatever. It's really important to not shut them down. Create a safe space and avoid triggering language and encourage professional help and learn all that you can yourself about trauma.

Mark 31:55
And where can someone who has experienced complex trauma or is experiencing complex trauma, find support? Is there anything that they can do while they wait to access supports?

Sue 32:05
Well, in relation to sexual abuse support, there is Blue Knot, who have counsellors there and that while you're waiting for supports, they would be able to on short term assist. There's also, as I've mentioned before, 1 800 RESPECT, which I believe is 24/7... there's also online support groups, such as the Survivor Hub, which is a group of victim survivors of sexual abuse or domestic violence, that support each other online. And I believe they also have groups running in some major cities or regional centres, and if not, they have online groups.

Mark 32:39
Thank you for coming in today, Sue, for sharing your experience and knowledge about CPTSD. You can find more about our shows on our website, brainways.org.au - or on the 3CR website, 3CR.org.au ... or on iTunes. Feel free to send us feedback or suggestions for shows via email at brainwaves@wellways.org - thanks for listening, and we'll be back next Wednesday at 5pm for another episode of Brainwaves on 3CR. If any of the things we have talked about today have to stress you, you can contact lifeline on 131114, or [?listen well, warm line] on 1300 111 500.

3CR ID 33:25
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