Queer Town: Inclusion and Allyship

Speaker 1 00:00

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Speaker 2 00:20

Brainwaves, hear the world differently, bringing community mental health to you, raising awareness and challenging stigma. Tune in to 3CR Community Radio, Wednesdays at 5pm.

Speaker 3 00:32

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Speaker 4 00:46

I would like to begin by acknowledging and paying my respects to the Ranjee people of the Kulin Nation. They are the traditional custodians of land, which I'm coming to you from today, land where at Brainwaves we tell our stories, and land where stories have been told by traditional owners for many, many years before us. I'd also like to pay my respects to their elders past, present and acknowledge all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander listeners that may be listening in today. So thank you everyone. Now here's today's episode of Brainwaves.

Speaker 5 01:16

Hello and welcome to Brainwaves on 3CR 855 AM on your dial via the app and on the online stream. I'm Jasmine McClennan, your host - and today I'm joined by Archie Beetle. Archie Beetle, they/them, is the founder and director at Queer Town, an Australian based startup delivering LGBTQIA plus "inclusion and allyship" training in workplaces throughout Australia and beyond. In the past few months, Queer Town has grown from a team of one to a team of six and some of their clients include the Australian Ballet, Cotton On Group, GMHBA and Federation Square. Archie's mission is to humanise this learning and to help to create inclusive workplaces where LGBTIQA plus people can show up authentically. Archie, welcome to the show.

Speaker 6 02:11

Hey, thank you so much for having me. It's such a pleasure to be here. I'm excited to chat.

Speaker 5 02:16

Fantastic, we're so happy to have you on board. So Archie, what are you hoping to achieve with Queer Town and what inspired you to build the business?

Speaker 6 02:27

Well, we're obviously planning world domination, and that is our queer agenda  - kidding of course! But it actually started in 2018. I started it in 2018 with the idea of building a central hub of queer content designed by queer people for a queer audience. And, you know, that's podcasts, video, writing. And then of course, we got hit by the pandemic. And it kind of really threw a spanner in everything. And my background is in training and education. So for me, I decided to pivot the business and create a sort of training workshop. And I pitched it to a few organisations, and it just got snapped up really quickly. And, you know, it kind of was "right place, right time". 

And there's a real hunger at the moment in workplaces for this education. And there's an expectation in our society now that, you know, your leaders in your workplace are LGBTIQA+ inclusive. So it's just kind of organically grew in that direction. And now, yeah, we deliver LGBTIQA+ allyship and inclusion training and workshops in workplaces across the country. So we work with some really exciting, big organisations like Kotnon Group and GMHBA and Kaiser. But then we also work with community groups and, you know, local art groups. And, you know, our goal is just to create spaces where queer people can feel authentic and express themselves authentically.

And also to take the fear out of education for those who want to learn more about how to be an ally. So we do that through these face to face workshops, online workshops, we're about to launch a digital short course that's self -guided that workplaces or individuals can undertake to learn the basics. So, you know, we're working hard to make sure that queer people don't feel so different and so othered, and that allies feel equipped to be allies.

Speaker 5 04:32

So important. I relate to that sense of fear when you're an ally and not knowing, you know, how to react and how to respond or how to start a conversation and feeling like you're going to get it wrong. And, and, and it's nice to hear that, you know, sometimes people who are in the queer community can still make mistakes. And, you know, so I think you still just got to try, you know, even if you're going to make mistakes - better to try than not.

Speaker 6 05:04

Yeah, I always say in workshops, like even if it's just because I'm queer doesn't mean that when I came out or stepped into myself that I got this magical download of information and suddenly I knew what pronouns were and what gender diversity was like - I had to Google that stuff and learn it myself and research because oftentimes we're not taught. So, you know, sometimes it takes a little bit of work or someone listening or attending a workshop just to get some of those basics. But mistakes are inevitable.

Speaker 5 05:31

Absolutely. That's true. It's part of learning. And do you think that the average workplace is safe and supportive for queer and gender diverse people? And I guess if not, what are some of the common issues that are faced? You've talked about this a little bit in your, a bit earlier on about not feeling, you know, accepted and worrying about how they might look and how they might come across, but are there any other issues in the workplace that really stand out?

Speaker 6 06:00

Yeah, sadly, I don't think the average workplace is necessarily super safe or inclusive. And it's not to say that their staff are exclusive. It's just, I think the biggest thing is a lack of education. So, you know, the beauty of our workshops is typically people are booking a 101. And it just gives teams an opportunity to learn the basics. You know, what does this language mean? What does this acronym stand for? What are pronouns and why should I care about them? So it just really lays that foundation because what I find, and I know this for myself, you know, attempting to be an ally for other communities, is that there's a huge fear around making a mistake or offending someone or looking silly for not knowing something.

And in my experience, the human response to that is to just not engage at all, not even risk making a mistake. And the consequence is, you know, members of our community being ignored at work, being avoided, people being visibly uncomfortable, people getting stressed out or frustrated that they have to learn different pronouns. And really, that's just coming from a place, I think, of insecurity of not wanting to muck up. So, you know, there's a lot of work to be done. And what we try to do at Queer Town is just take the pressure off people say, you know, we will inevitably slip up, you know, we all do it.

I'm 31. I run Queer Town. I'm a queer person. And I still muck up pronouns from time to time, you know, it doesn't make you an expert being queer. We all grew up in the same society that ingrained the same, you know, heteronormative lessons around what it is to be a man or a woman. So we just try to say it's so much better to engage even if you slip up, then it is to avoid or ignore. And, you know, we've probably all had that experience of being ignored or avoided in a group situation and how awful that feels. And you'd so much rather someone engage with you, even if they maybe muck up your name, but they're invested and they're asking you questions, you'd rather that than to be ignored altogether. So, yeah, we just try to help people feel more confident and comfortable to engage.

Speaker 5 08:09

That's so fantastic. I know from my experience, having a mental illness, I really appreciate it when people do kind of engage with that a little bit as well and acknowledge or ask a question about it. You know, if my family kind of, you know, at least it's not the elephant in the room if we can talk about it. So just, yeah, I can understand how that would feel. And recently I had a broke my foot and it was just a small thing, but I felt I was on crutches and I felt that small feeling of what it might be like to be excluded if you have like a physical disability as well and not being people not sort of creating space for me to be able to be there and and stuff like that. It's just so important to include at all levels, if possible.

Speaker 6 08:52

Yeah, and that's, I mean, sorry that that happened. That sounds horrible. It's all touchwords - my worse nightmare to like, yeah, break a leg and you see, oh my gosh, it seems like such a long recovery time. So that happened. But I think what you pointed out is the power of empathy, you know, you get a bit of an insight into that experience, and you start to appreciate respect, care more about what that looks like. And, you know, an important part of our workshops at Queer Town is sharing personal experiences and sharing queer stories. And when I deliver sessions, I now share my own personal story. 

And without a doubt, that's always the thing that gets the most positive feedback at the end. No matter how well I feel as I deliver the information, people just connect to the human story. And, and they say things like, I didn't realise that that's what it felt like. Or actually, that helps me understand, you know, I've got a cousin that's queer, and now I understand this, that or the other. So really, empathy is such a huge part of this learning.

Speaker 5 09:51

And I think when people can hear that human story, it breaks down so many barriers because they can see you and they know that you're a human being just like them and you're relatable and you know, you're so many other things apart from being queer or apart from having mental illness and hopefully they can see that, you know, that complexity. That's fantastic. 

So if you were just tuning in, this is Brainwaves through CR Melbourne. I'm Jasmine McLennan and today I'm joined by Archie Beetle, who's the founder and director of Queer Town. I thought we might dive into maybe a slightly big question to start with and just start from the start and dive in. So what do you think are some of the, sort of the big mental health concerns that face queer, trans and gender diverse people at the moment?

Speaker 6 10:47

Well, it's a really big question and I think you could start at a lot of different points. At Queer Town, a lot of our work is done in workplaces. So most of my time is spent engaging across different industries. It could be medical, it could be law firms, it could be community groups or retail. And honestly, I think the biggest thing that members of our communities are facing is just a sort of lack of acknowledgement and just that ongoing sense of feeling different, feeling other, feeling as though they're an inconvenience, feeling as though they need to keep themselves secret or hidden, feeling as though their safety or their job could be at risk if people were to figure out more about their identity.

So for me, I think it's this ongoing experience of hypervigilance, constantly looking for threats, constantly checking your own body language, what you're saying, how much you're sharing and disclosing. And that over a long period of time just really wears you down. It impacts your mental health, your concentration, your productivity. So yeah, I think there's a lot to it, but that constant sense of hypervigilance and stress, I think, leads to a lot of ongoing mental health issues for our communities.

Speaker 5 12:09

Absolutely, and it can be quite unseen, that kind of stress, that sort of subtle but really impactful, you know, sort of microaggressions that can happen throughout the day. They really build up.

Speaker 6 12:23

Yeah, exactly. And it starts, you know, like just getting ready in the morning and thinking like, What can I wear today that's not going to bring too many looks perhaps or is professional enough to be corporate? You know, am I catching a train today? Do I feel comfortable on the train wearing this, you know, getting to work? What's my environment like? So I feel like there's a lot of mental load on members of our communities before they even left their house.

Speaker 5 12:48

Absolutely. Yeah. So I know that there are, you know, there are mental health concerns that face queer, trans and gender diverse people, and they're very broad. I wanted to ask you if there'd been any, you know, mental-emotional health challenges that you've faced, you know, being a queer person in the community and your experiences at work as well as a queer person.

Speaker 6 13:16

Yeah, it's something I've been reflecting a lot on recently. And I think it's because for me, growing up queer, I almost came to accept that I was going to face resistance, going to face discrimination, and that I would have poor mental health as a result. And I think it's only through maturing and being an adult that I'm starting to properly reflect on my experiences and realise how messed up that is. And like, I knew that it was bad, but I kind of accepted it as my reality. And so, you know, I was a happy, outgoing kid. And then when I hit the teenage years, I just became introverted, I experienced bullying for being, you know, feminine or different, you know, people started to suspect that I was queer before it was something I felt comfortable to tell anyone or even accept myself.

So to have that pointed out and used against you when it's your biggest insecurity, you know, I just started to go into my shell. And I think it was confusing and has been confusing for my parents even to this day, because, you know, they saw the vibrant child and they don't understand why they now have an introverted child, you know, and so it's something that I'm still unpacking. But for me, personally, I think the biggest thing that I face, whether it's at work or just walking down the street is this sense of hypervigilance of, you know, are people judging me? Are people going to say something to me? Am I at risk? And so it changes the clothes that I wear when I leave the house, you know, if I could wear anything, like it sounds like a joke, but I would, I'd be wearing a ball gown, I'd be wearing a face of makeup, I'd be like, Oh my gosh, I want to play and have fun and express myself.

And when I started to explore those things in my early 20s, you know, I was a lot maybe more confident at that time, but I experienced a lot of verbal abuse from complete strangers on the train, in a club, walking down the street. And it's scary to think that, you know, someone is so afraid or angry to see someone else expressing themselves, wearing a pair of earrings or makeup, that they feel the right or the need or the urge to violently, you know, harass that person. So I think after experiencing that so much, it's made me withdraw even more as an adult. And ironically, you know, I run queer town and I'm very proudly queer, but, you know, I still face a lot of kind of insecurities around that.

So yeah, that's something I'm trying to work on, you know, building my confidence back up, so that I don't have to live, you know, hiding all the time.

Speaker 5 16:06

Absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing that. I think that a lot of people, a lot of our listeners will be able to relate to that experience, you know, really well. And it's just such a shame that we have to censor ourselves and, you know, be the mercy of other people's, you know, ignorance and fear, as you said, and just aggression. Like, it's, yeah, I'm so sorry that's happened to you.

Speaker 6 16:33

Me too. Thank you.

Speaker 5 16:35

Yeah. Okay. Welcome back to Brainwaves on 3CR Melbourne. I'm Jasmine McLennan and today I'm joined by Archie Beetle, founder and director of Queer Town. Archie, what has running workshops for organisations taught you about the misconceptions that people may have about the queer community?

Speaker 6 16:56

Well I think there's a few misconceptions out there. I think to be specific one that I'm facing a lot or experiencing a lot is specifically around pronouns and more specifically around they-them pronouns and their use and we know that more and more people are using they-them pronouns. I use they-them pronouns myself. A lot of my friends do too, and research tells us that using someone's correct name and pronouns has a direct correlation with an improvement of mental health and a reduction in suicide ideation - which when you think about it makes sense, you know, using language that reflects someone and who they are like, their correct name for example or their correct pronouns of course, is going to make people feel better.

But a real misconception that I see particularly from those of an older demographic is that it's something that is attention-seeking, it's a wanting to be different from others, you know, it's a massive inconvenience. Someone actually told me in a workshop recently that it's ageist, that it's an ageist exercise, because for her you know being middle-aged it's going to be a lot harder for her to learn new pronouns ... and so look we always come from a place of empathy and understanding at Queer Town - and I really do acknowledge that if you lived on the planet for a longer period of time and this feels brand new you've got a lot more brain wiring that you have to undo or that you have to rewire to use they-them pronouns in this context, so I do come from a place of empathy in that sense.

But you know the research is there if it comes to improving someone's mental health and reducing suicide then we need to make the effort so what we do in our sessions is just try to help people to feel more confident to use pronouns. We do an exercise of practicing introducing your pronouns, we do an exercise practicing using they-them pronouns, and as soon as people have done it it just takes the edge off you know it takes the pressure off and people are like Oh yeah, I've slipped up a little bit but at least I know how to do it now or how to practice in future. 

So I think that is a common misconception - and I think you know no pun intended, as a society we are in a period of transition and I think it feels clunky at the moment there's a lot of friction around these new changes and I think you know running workshops 10 years from now they-them pronouns will be so much more commonly used and understood. And one thing I will add is that you know, we always use they-them pronouns and we actually always use them in the singular - people often just don't realise, but for example if I was delivering a workshop and someone ran out of the room and left a phone behind and another person said whose phone is that I would naturally say Oh it was that person they've gone to move their car they'll be back in a minute, I'll give this to them then. 

You know, so easy but when we assume someone's gender or we already know their name that's when it starts to feel more challenging - so it's not a new practice, we're just using it in different ways.

Speaker 5 20:17

So good. And to know that research is there, as you said, it's incredibly important for us to get our head around this kind of thing. And it doesn't, practicing it, that's so good that you do some practice in your workshops, because sometimes that's just all you need to do is to start hearing yourself saying it and like, knowing what instances you need to say it. And just apologising if you mess up by just acknowledging, Oh, I misgendered you or I'm sorry, I got that wrong and then keep going, I guess, is the thing. I've got a lot of people in my life that use they-them pronouns, and I still get it wrong too sometimes. So yeah, it's good to know.

Speaker 6 20:55

And you write, you just say, Oops, sorry, and you keep it moving and then use the correct one, you know, you don't have to write a written apology.

Speaker 5 21:06

There appears to be sort of more social discourse around sexuality and gender for teams. You know, online, I think it's definitely something that they're growing up with. Like you said... they-them is kind of more common for them. It's a bit easier for them to adapt to that. They have, you know, their brains aren't fully wide yet. It's something that they're familiar with. But they're still, you know, dealing with their sexuality in an online context all the time, which can be really challenging.

Do we, you know, what can we sort of better do to support our youth, you know, who are coming out and facing those challenges? I know that's a tough question to, to answer, but I know that you, you expressed a bit of, you know, how it was for you coming out as a young person and the challenges that were around then. And I'm sure they still exist in a similar way now.

Speaker 6 22:02

Yeah, for sure. I think I'm sure there's a whole range of different answers and different people would say different things. But for me, it's really just engage. Like I feel like that is the key term is to engage. It's to listen. It's to ask questions. It's to provide information to share your own personal experiences. You know, growing up for me and I think it exists today is there's so much fear and shame and discomfort around discussing sexuality at all, let alone the sexuality of someone who may identify within LGBTIQA plus. But really, we're just projecting those kind of fears and discomforts. And, you know, I meet with parents now and teachers now who are growing up in this kind of new world and are having conversations with young people.

And a common question I get at the end of a workshop is, you know, I'm a parent, I've got a young child. At what age do you think it's appropriate to have these conversations? And I say, go for like now, what are you waiting for? You know, I think the issue with the term sexuality, and personally, I don't love the term is there's so much emphasis on sex. And I think it's a huge barrier to our communities. It always has been it's a very easy and convenient way for conservative people to fear monger and say that it's inappropriate, it's sexual, it's scandalous, it's deviant.

We're talking about romance, attraction, companionship, friendship, love, pleasure, you know, it's so much more than that. And, you know, kids are already exposed to that, you know, they're already having clothes, t -shirts put on them saying, you know, ladies man, or you know, they're already being asked, Oh, do you have a girlfriend at school? But suddenly any conversation around LGBTQA+ is framed as inappropriate. So it's just, have a conversation, ask questions, because young people are going to be exploring these things and exposed to these things online, if not in person. So so much better to have those chats with someone in their circles.

Speaker 5 24:12

Hmm, wonderful. I know that my son, I've got an 11 year old son and he has a really broad kind of fluid view of, you know, how he wants to present himself in the world. And like, I love it. So he wears, you know, a range of different kind of clothing, does his hair in different ways, but it's not even like it hasn't even, it's not even a question or a conversation. It's not an issue for him in any way. It's sort of like, I love that, you know, hopefully that shows that that generation does have a little bit more freedom of expression than we had. And there are these other options out there that weren't, you know, weren't kind of readily available to us. So yeah, I think it's... really good.

Speaker 6 25:02

Yeah, I think, I think like in terms of young people and my expression, for sure, like this generation is just exposed to more information and representation and so I think generally speaking there's like an improvement and a growth, you know, I do think that's more challenging depending on your cultural background, your religious beliefs of your family, your geography, you're like in a more regional and remote part of Australia, for example, that may not be as commonplace. So I think there's always going to be barriers.

But someone said to me in a workshop recently, they were like, How do we instil inclusion in our young people? Like how do we teach them to be more inclusive? And like, I had to stop myself from laughing to be honest because I've worked so much with young people and what's very clear is that young people are automatically open-minded and accepting. Young people get it. It's not until as adults we start to give these impressions of what's right, what's wrong, what boys do, what girls do, what's appropriate, what's inappropriate that suddenly they start to form all these views.

And, you know, I've heard of a bunch of different families with young kids in them, and all the adults have been stressing because one of the other adults is transitioning and, you know, is a transgender person who's going to be changing their name and pronouns and clothing and what's the young kid going to think and feel.

Speaker 5 26:31

And so Archie, if you were a magic genie and you could grant three wishes to use for the queer community in terms of, you know, improving their mental health, what wishes would you ask to have granted?

Speaker 6 26:47

Hmm, well I can think of as the Tim Tam ad, and that's honestly a pretty good wish. No, in terms of magic wishes to support the queers I think like, let's start big - I think the, I would straight up abolish the patriarchy, that is wish number one, and I think you know the patriarchy has a lot to answer for for a lot of communities - most minority groups in my personal opinion face challenges as a result of the patriarchy and one of the things that is responsible for is you know heteronormativity and this idea that to be heterosexual to be born strictly a male or strictly a female is what is normal and anything else is unexpected, unnatural, different, inconvenient ... and that influences you know experience in school, in workplaces, the clothes that we wear, the jobs that we go for - so I reckon that's a pretty good one - we'll start with getting rid of the patriarchy.

The second wish and like, while we're going big... like, why not? I would remove identity from religion because I think personally - and maybe this is controversial - but I don't think any religion should teach discrimination against a group of people based on their identity and whether or not people think that religion does, or the people who follow the religion does, I would just remove identity from it - because you know I see a lot of value in religious values and you know religious communities, and there's a lot of members of LGBTQA+ communitiews who are discriminated against due to someone else's religion. So there's a couple of big ones, I love these.

Speaker 5 28:44

Yeah, keep going!

Speaker 6 28:49

The third one, I think everyone should watch Paris is Burning. It's a documentary around trans experiences. And you know, it could be any documentary, that's one that comes to mind because I think a huge barrier to acceptance and celebration and inclusion is just a lack of exposure, which results in a lack of empathy. So I've learned so much and I've developed so much empathy for other experiences through watching documentaries and just seeing an experience, even if they're not in my life, I see it on TV. So, you know, if everyone can watch Paris is Burning, learn a bit more about trans experiences, trans people of color, the history of LGBTIQA+ experiences, I think it would go a really long way. So they're my three wishes. And if I can get a full, I'll ask this in Tim Tams.

Speaker 5 29:40

Never ending in terms, right? Oh, fantastic wishes. Gosh, I hope that you do become a magic genie and those wishes are granted. Please, thank you. So actually, I know Queer Town works with businesses and education and workplaces, but you also work with schools. Is that right? Is that both primary and high school environments?

Speaker 6 30:02

Yeah, we do. We predominantly work in workplaces. However, more and more schools are asking for this education. And so in particular, we work with teachers. And our goal is to support teachers in creating safe classrooms. You know, how can they have these conversations with young people, you know, supporting their students who may be transitioning within the school. So really, it's a conversation around that language, feeling confident to be a leader. You know, how do we support the other young people in the classroom, who are maybe wanting to be supportive or not understanding the process and what's happening. So yeah, we do that in both primary and secondary.

And recently, I was working with Milgate Primary School - shout out to Milgate Primary School - who, they were awesome. And we did it over a couple of weeks. And actually, at another school, I worked with... one story that came out was a teacher who after having the workshop, decided to come out to their students. And it's something that they've been weighing on them all year. And then when we had our first workshop, they decided actually, they wanted to have that conversation, they wanted to be honest, to not have to lie every day at school with their students.

So they did open up to their students and they said they got the best response. It's been super supportive. And they just feel like this weight has been lifted off them coming to school every day. So that was an unexpected outcome. And it makes me so happy to hear. So yeah, we're working in schools too.

Speaker 5 31:31

That's great. That's amazing. And what a great way to role model for the kids, you know, if the kids can go, oh, my, you know, my teacher's queer or trans, like, okay, cool. It's normal. It's fine. You know, so it's so powerful. Yeah. So actually, what can people do to support Queer Town and to get involved?

Speaker 6 31:55

Well, I think the easiest thing to do and the most helpful thing to do is to tell people about Queer Town and that's how we've grown over the years is through word of mouth. So head to queertown.com.au and that's where you can learn more about our workshops and our offerings and our history. And yeah, if you could send one person a link to queertown.com.au who's at a workplace that you think might benefit from this type of training, that would be huge. So that's a great place to start. We're also on Instagram, Queertown underscore. 

So if you want to learn more about what we've got coming up, we have some events coming up for Idaho, but on May 17 and Pride month in June. So yeah, get in touch, drop an email and yeah, we can get chatting.

Speaker 5 32:41

Thank you Archie so much for coming in today. It's been such an illuminating conversation and I think our listeners are gonna get a lot out of it. So thank you. Make sure you head to queertown.com.au to learn more about Queer Town's workshops and offerings. Queer Town will also be hosting a public workshop on May the 17th for either Hobbit Day, just International Day against homophobia, biphobia and transphobia. So be sure to sign up for further information or else you can give them a follow on their Instagram, QueerTown underscore for updates.

As always, I wanna remind you that your mental health is of equal importance to your physical health. So if you're yet to do so, please align them together by taking a deep breath in and a deep breath out. Please shower yourself in the kindness you so easily give to others. I look forward to joining you next time on Brainwaves. Thank you.

Speaker 7 33:42

You've been listening to a 3CR podcast produced in the studios of Independent Community Radio Station 3CR in Melbourne, Australia. For more information, go to allthews.3cr.org.au