Castlemaine Safe Space

Speaker (ID) 1 0:00

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Speaker 2 0:46

Dear listeners, this episode contains topics relating to suicide and might be emotionally activating for some. I'd like to acknowledge all the first people of our land. I'm in particular from the Jajabowong country. I'd like to acknowledge all those who are past, present and emerging. I'd also like to acknowledge everyone we've lost to suicide, to say that you've left footprints in our hearts and minds forever, and you mattered and you always will today.

We're joined by Rachel Stewart, the founder of Castlemaine Safe Space, the first rural safe space in Victoria. Castlemaine Safe Space is a non-clinical support service staffed by other trained peer volunteers who have lived experience of emotional distress and or suicidal ideation. Safe Spaces is an umbrella term referring to non clinical, peer led supports for people in suicidal crisis. These spaces aim to provide an alternative to conventional mental health and hospital services, and are usually operated by peer workers with the lived experience of suicide. Safe Space is based on a model first used in 2014 in the UK, which has been since trialed a number of states in Australia, and operates on a tier four model, which is a non conventional approach to support. 

Rachel joins us today to speak about creating and running the space. Thanks for joining us today, Rachel. 

Speaker 3 2:13

Thank you for asking me, yeah, of course. 

Speaker 2 2:16

before we dive into the conversation of the service itself, when were you first introduced to the existence of safe spaces?

Speaker 3 2:23

I think I'd been... I'd had my ear open to the idea of safe spaces for about the last 10 years. And then about eight years ago, we moved up to Castlemaine, in [?Tuton], actually, which is a little town right next to Castlemaine, and there was a sign in the local service station just saying, If you're interested in talking about suicide, there's a suicide prevention forum next week - come along. And really, that's the first time I'd ever really heard people talking about suicide. So I went along to that, and a lot of other community... members were talking about safe spaces. I didn't say anything about that. And that's what really got into my mind, Well, we could actually do this here in Castlemaine. Oh, I think there's enough people that are interested.

Speaker 2 3:04

Yes, you heard about it in the UK. Was it the first time you were you just did you conceptualise it on your own?

Speaker 5 3:11

I think, no, no, oh no, no, because I knew about the safe spaces in the UK. And then it spread to to America. The Western Massachusetts group had been promoting safe spaces, and then, actually, the New South Wales and Queensland governments each allocated about $20 million to open safe spaces, but they are tier three safe spaces. So they are, they're attached to local emergency departments, so it's still, it's still clinical, really.

If you don't mind if I just talk personally a bit, because I lost my brother to suicide when I was 15, and he was 17, and that was in Wagga. And actually, at the time, I was away at a Catholic girls school camp, so I wasn't even at home at the time. And when the nuns came to tell me that this had happened. They knocked on my door. Was early evening, and I think myself and a few friends were smoking, hanging out the window, you know, thinking no one could smell smoking, and so when I answered the door, the nuns first spent about three minutes yelling at us for smoking. 

And then, then one of them told me that one of my brothers had been injured. They didn't know how seriously, and they didn't know which brother, but that they would drive me halfway back to meet my father, who picked me up. That was a very difficult time for me, because he was really my best friend at the time, Don my brother, and unfortunately, there was no support at all. People really just kept away from you. I was just sent back to school, and my mother, the way my parents handled it, was just not talking about it at all. So I never heard them speak his name again. All his photos were taken down, all the clothes were taken away. 

And there's so many things I just feel. I feel it's so sad, because I was too naive, I guess, at the time, to even think about taking. Something of his to keep for myself, or anything like that. Anyway, after that, I went to uni, and, you know, people just, you just get on with it, because it's just, what else do you do? Because there's just no one asking if I was okay that, you know, his friends at school were just told to go back into the classroom. My mother didn't want anyone else at the funeral, so there's only the four of us and the priest, and it was very dark and pretty sad. 

I went away to Melbourne, then when I finished school and went to uni, and I think my life then became about not wanting to upset my parents, like just trying to sort of keep the peace, yes, and anything I did that was kind of naughty, it was all away from them. But then when I moved back to Melbourne to to start working, I got a call one day and was told that my father, when I was 26 my father, had suicided as well. So that was really surprising. Both both times I had no idea, and I there's so many feelings that you go through, you know, and they just keep on going and again, there was no support at all. 

Speaker 2 6:06

Yeah, sounds like a very, very hard thing to go through, especially so alone. It sounds like even though these are obviously such difficult experiences to have, regardless, even if there was support, right? And I'm sure, like you would have been so, you know, maybe hyper vigilant, even after your, you know, brother passed, and then and still today, you know, still.

Speaker 3

Yeah, but the fact that they happened in Wagga, which was a town we'd only been in for about five years, and then I heard a safe space was opening in Wagga, one that was attached to a hospital. I thought, Well, if they can do it, I can - I can do it for them somewhere else. So that's where we got the idea of of, you know, building momentum for a safe space in Castlemaine. 

Speaker 2 6:49

Can't even imagine how hard that must have been. And the fact that you're still standing and supporting this as well is, yeah, just commendable. I think, I think we need more of these conversations than we need more of these, you know, just, I guess, of course, the safe spaces, but also just within, like, regular conversation, just like normalising it a bit more exactly, because the struggle, like everyone's struggling in different ways, yeah, and, but losing your life over the struggle is, yeah, that's the thing.

Speaker 3 7:16

When I think about my brother and my father, the fact that they had no one to talk to you know that if, even if they felt brave enough to talk to someone, they would have ended up in a, probably in a psychiatric ward. And it's just not a choice that some people want to make, you know, and I just the fact that they were alone and moments before taking their lives, it's very sad, it's very painful. So I don't want other people to be in that position. So we also run our peer support group for people buried by suicide that's been going for about six years as well. And you'd be amazed in a small town, how many people turn up, you know. 

And sometimes it can take people a while, but we have people coming from all over the place, you know, and that's that's once a month, and in that group, you can really talk about how you feel, because other people, it's not, they haven't had the exact same experience as you, but they understand many degrees of the UK. You know, how you... come out of something like that, yeah, and you never, it never goes away. It never, you don't get better. It's just different. And people's roles change. You know you might, if you, if you're a mother, like I became the oldest child. You know that you can... you can not be a parent anymore. You know, technically, or you know you can. 

It's just, it's the whole thread of society. It's everything that we're, we're kind of used to doing. And you know, research shows now that it actually takes, it takes time for the brain to rewire. So even someone who who really was working terrifically hard to get over a loss like that, it would still take a year or two before you just don't expect to see them when you wake up in the morning or come across them where you normally do. So that's a physiological thing. You can't change that yeah, let alone what's in the heart. You know,

Speaker 2 9:01

I'm unsure of the stats, which I'm sure you might be more aware of. But is there a gendered difference, more women attempt than men in Australia as well, all over the world? 

Speaker 3

Yeah. So it's just, you know, the stats are high. The ABS Bureau of Statistics just released their figures a few days ago, and the rates are about the same as they were last year, but it takes more time than usual. When you're looking into cases where you're not sure what the cause is, a lot of them turn out to be ruled as suicide. So the stats will go up during the year that are reflecting the previous year, although they never quite stay the same. Women attempt more than men. They do okay, but then men tend to be successful. Well, I mean, success is not the term, yeah, what would I say completed suicide? 

I mean, the language is, it's all very odd, and it takes a long time to get used to changing your normal language. Like we don't say committed suicide anymore, because that infers, it's a crime... it was only in the 70s that, in the 1970s that suicide was decriminalised in Victoria. So it hasn't been that long, and it's just rolls off the time committed suicide. I would say suicided by suicide. But you know, people can say it, and we can, we can. It's gently correct someone, you know, no, of course, they remember, but you know, people can feel they can make a very sad thing even more painful that this idea in people's heads so that what they've done is something wrong or broken law. So it's just another thing to watch out for. 

Speaker 2

Yeah, it's another... way vulnerable people are made more vulnerable in society.

Speaker 3 10:37

Exactly. Yeah. And I think the the reason why more men do suicide, I think, is because they just, they choose methods that are, you know, less ambiguous you could say. But that doesn't mean there's not just as many women, if not more, who feel suicidal, and that's why, with Safe Spaces, we're really it's really important to us that our guests - we call them guests - have agency to make their own decisions about what they do with themselves and their lives. So that's the idea of a tier four safe space is really that we... vow to not contact emergency services or bring in clinical services unless a person really wants us to, because we don't want to take agency out of people's hands.

And it is really sad, but I've just had to come to terms with the fact and you... that, you know, if a person suicides, they're making their decision, they're making their choice, and well, because I had no support, I just had to unders. That was the best I could find out about, you know, the best way I could sort of settle it in my own heart and head. So people are often, you know, it's like when you've been through trauma or anything difficult at all, the more people that that take away your choice, the more the more persons driven to not want to live. 

And we're not aiming to replace clinical services. We just want to work side by side, to help, to sort of to capture people who don't want to go to emergency departments, or have had, you know, awful experiences there before. Obviously, the lighting, the waiting time, all that stuff, just it's not, it's not conducive to someone who's feeling suicidal. And I've taken people there and just been sent home with them. You know, nothing has happened so but we, you know, for people who can't access clinical services or who don't want to, we're another option, you know, and we're trying to nip things in the bud before people become suicidal. But our peer volunteers are also trained to work with suicidality as well. 

Speaker 2 12:41

Yeah. How does... it sounds like you've set up a great system for the guests that you, you know, welcome into your space. What about yourself and the people who work there? Like, what sort of ways do you support yourself and the people who work with you?

Speaker 3 12:55

Well, I'm part of a really, really good working group, and we've become very close friends, really, we talk a lot. We have debriefing well. We have briefing sessions before each shift, and debriefing sessions after, and we run regular reflective practice sessions for our peer volunteers and anyone you know, because all of our peer volunteers have lived experience of emotional distress or isolation or feeling suicidal and things like being in psychiatric wards, we're very aware that if someone's not feeling up to it or well, they just want to come in as a guest themselves. 

That's fine, you know, we understand that you people shouldn't be there if they're not feeling up to it at that moment. Yeah. I mean, I guess for myself, I'm a bit I must have become quite good at burying the feelings, you know, when I was younger, but since I've been involved in the safe space movement, I think it's been a really good opportunity for me to also unfold and and realize, recognize things and process things that I wasn't given a chance to in the past.

Speaker 2 13:56

You seem to have set up the space with so much love. What would a person coming in experience on any given day? 

Speaker 3 14:03

Well, as soon as someone walks into the safe space, so we have someone by the door, and we ask them, Would you like a one-on-one chat with one of our peer volunteers? Or would you like to come and join a social group? Or you're welcome just to spend some time alone. And they choose what they want to do. We make them a cup of tea, we offer them something to eat. Generally, you know, if they come in really distressed, they would ask to have a one on one conversation down. 

We're really, sort of, it's the question is, well, what's been going on for you? What's been happening for you? Because most people don't know that nearly 40% of suicides are not related to mental health problems. Okay? They just, they're related to circumstances. Okay? So it could be a whole collection of things that's happened to a person which leads them to consider suicide. It's called the perfect stall, and people often feel that, you know that no one's ever asked them what's been going on for you. Even in emergency departments, you know, so when you give a person opportunity to talk about what's been happening for them, ask them about their own supports, ask them, you know, what their own ideas are. 

And following this, this protocol, trying to find some some hope or some reason to live, and then going through steps to help make the person feel safe. From then on, we'd always try and contact a support person for the individual, people generally have supports and strengths and resources that they don't realise, you know, so after telling their story, there is generally a sense of relief. If someone initiated suicide in the safe space, we would contact emergency services if, or if there was violence, or, you know, some other reason, we had to ring the police or something like that. But otherwise, we won't do it. 

We won't do it because we don't even take names of people. They're welcome to tell us their names, or we don't take names. We don't take address or age or anything like that. We have no assessments, no appointments, no referrals. It's all free. And we really just want people to come in and start talking about how they're feeling, yeah, and particularly around suicide, because if you're in a situation, I know many people have said that they've been to their GP or been another clinical service where they really feel judged. When they say, I feel like ending my own life, you know? And we don't have any of that. We just have warmth and empathy and understanding, because all the peer volunteers that we've trained have been there themselves. Circumstances are always slightly different, but they understand the feeling inside a person. 

You know, we invite people to come back. We have many regular guests that come. There's no judgment from our point of view. And you know, if people are feeling judged or concerned about being sent to a psychiatric ward. There's nowhere for them to go. There is nowhere for those people to go and talk to anyone you know, because it's just a step that happens after someone mentions suicide and they seem to have intent. And means it's just an automatic process that occurs in clinical services, sometimes for good reasons. 

If we spent a long time with someone and still felt quite concerned about them, we could ask them, you know, we're not, it's not that we'd never mention, would you like to be transported to the hospital and have a chat to someone there? But we wouldn't do, we wouldn't initiate it, you know, we wouldn't do it behind anyone's back - with me, certainly, it's not the first option we take. There is definitely a lack of humanness. You know, within a lot of these systems, there is a lot of this person is their disorder. This person is their struggle. Yeah? And a lot of people, including me, were looking for that sort of connection, that relational, like, you know, yeah, connection, which is what seems like the safe space offers, which, yeah, it really does.

Speaker 2 17:46

I love that.

Speaker 3 17:46

I mean, most of the people that come in just lonely and isolated. We have guests that come from Melbourne, if you believe that, because there's just nothing like it around, nowhere closer, you know? I mean, St Vincent has a safe haven, again, that's located on the hospital ground. I know they do great work, like they have a locked door, you know, so you have to knock and be with ours is open door policy. Anyone can come of any age, any gender, any diversity in any state, because we don't judge people, you know. How can we know if someone's intoxicated or not, you know, it could, it could be something else, you know. So we don't judge people. Everyone's welcome, yeah.

Speaker 2 18:27

And it's very much... it's a very split second decision as well, isn't it? 

Speaker 3 18:31

It can be, yeah. And I believe... yeah, with my brother, I believe it was, whereas with my father, I believe it was a carefully thought-out decision. But every suicide is different, you know, and you can't make assumptions. We've just secured a permanent, semi permanent presence, a resident for 11 months, so that we're just putting that together now. That's going to save a lot of hard work for the volunteers, lovely. It will reduce the confusion in the community about where we are. 

There's also quite a bit of confusion about what we are and why we're there. Some people say, Oh, you just for people who've been through family violence, or You're just for women, or You're just for this or that? So we're about to, we had to wait till we got the semi-permanent address before we want to do another massive advertising campaign, which is just about to go out, but in that we'll be addressing exactly what the safe space is. It's just for anyone who wants to come and have a chat. You know, it really is, and we've, we've been open for nearly two and a half years now, and people that come regularly have become our friends. We're like a family. 

Anyone that comes in is fascinating, you know, they've got really interesting stories. They are really nice people. You know, it's, there's no, it's not... a, you know, collection of people that you wouldn't want to have at your house, you know, yeah, really nice people. Yeah?

Speaker 2 19:49

Clearly, have a lot of capacity to empathise, yeah. And clearly, people are drawn to that energy, and which is why, even though you've not had permanent place, people are still coming through, you're still having your regulars, like slowly walking, whatever you're doing. 

Speaker 5 20:04

Yes, sometimes we only get one or two guests in a shift, and sometimes we'll get seven. But it doesn't matter to us. Actually, we've only had two shifts where no one's come in. But the important thing to us is that we're there, we're open, and we know people know that we're there, but haven't come in yet. But in rural towns or small cities, it's just so important that these things stay open, because as soon as someone wants it, it could, if it's closed last year, it's no help to anyone. Yeah, it's a consistency, yes, yes. So we had to, yeah, not only recruit the working group, but recruit peer volunteers, decide what kind of training they needed to have and keep on top of all the legalities of working with children, cards and police checks and all those things. 

But one of the most onerous things is applying for grants constantly, because, you know, it's actually a lot of work keeping a safe space going and keeping it running. And now for volunteers, there's even more paperwork. There's more policies that we have to adhere to. Yeah, so we just try not to make it too onerous for our volunteers, but applying for grants and acquitting them is it takes a lot of time. And some grants, you know, they're not appropriate because, you know, they all come with their own terms, and they want the logos and the, you know, the slogans and all that. And it does colour what people think you know, of our safe space, depending on who we get donations from, but we're not self sustaining. We do need to get some money from somewhere, of course. 

Speaker 2 21:27

Of course... and but like, you know, the whole system of just bureaucracy, which is like plans, applying, it is no fun for anyone.

Speaker 3 21:36

It's true, it's not fun at all. And we've trained now about 30 peer volunteers. So now we have a peer volunteer coordinator who does the rosters and things you know, and organises all the shifts and makes sure everyone's up with their paperwork and training, etc. Yeah, it seems like it's going really well and going like building and developing it is and so Roses in the Ocean, who helped us with our co-design, because we did an intensive co-design in our local community so that our safe space would be exactly what our community wanted. So they're all slightly different, and they are now, I think we'll be sponsoring 15 safe spaces in Australia, so it certainly is growing. Yeah, and they're all tier four, which is wonderful, which is wonderful.

Speaker 2 22:21

When do you think they'll be coming out? 

Speaker 3 22:24

They're in the process of being formed now. So I think there's seven or eight now in Australia, and the others are coming on board as we speak.We do you have values that... we ask our guests to adhere to, like, just generally keeping quiet. Ish, you know, not talking about politics or anything inflammatory, and just it needs to be a space that's safe for everyone who comes in, yeah. So we have to have separate one-on-one areas. And this is a good thing about our new premises - people can come in for one-on-one chat now they don't need to walk past the social group and other people. So we can zone off particular areas. So it really does feel safe for everyone. Yeah, lovely. 

And the concept of a safe space is really like a family home. So this place we've got, it's very central. It's a little bit discreet, but it is also a house which is beautiful because you can have your kitchen, your lounge room, you know, your different rooms, and it just feels homely. Interestingly, our peer volunteers, they usually say they feel better at the end of a shift than they did at the beginning, because you're able to make those connections, you know, and you feel like you're doing something worthwhile with things in your past that were difficult to help other people, you know. And it's a, it can be a really good feeling, but most of the people that come in are just struggling, normal sort of struggles, you know, or just just don't have enough community connection. 

So it's quite easy, you know, to sit and have a chat without feeling like, oh my gosh, okay, yeah, so very daunting. It's very real life, everyday problems, yeah. And we're very careful with our peer volunteers in any... because we try and have them only on for one shift a month, and that's two and a half hours. So it's not as if you're constantly immersed in other people's issues, do you I mean, workplaces have to make adjustments. It's not the other way around anymore. And in the same way, you know, if people are distressed or feeling lonely or whatever, it's a community that needs to adjust. It's not the people with neurodiversity, it's not the people that are struggling that are the problem. It's actually the other way around. 

Speaker 2

But it will take a little while for those changes to be commonplace, I think.

Speaker 3 24:29

Yeah, no, totally agree. That's exactly, starting... that's That's good. It definitely is starting. Yeah. 

Speaker 2

Thank you so much for our conversation today, Rachel, it was so amazing talking to you, and I think you had such amazing insights. And also just, Castlemaine Safe Space sounds like a really amazing place to support. So for our listeners, how would they support your space if they don't live in Castlemaine - like, is there some other ways and some other resources that you would like to share?

Speaker 3 24:56

Yes, well, in terms of supporting our space... I mean, we are always welcome to have donations. People are welcome to visit at any time. We've got a website, castlemainesafespace.org - or if anyone's willing to come up for Melbourne, just for one shift a month, you can email us on castlemainesafespace@gmail.com ... in terms of support for people who don't come into the safe space. You know, one day we're going to be taking telephone appointments when, when we were evolved a bit it really depends on the number of peer volunteers we have, because we know that a lot of people are a bit scared to come in, and it is a scary thing to come in to present yourself and say, Look, I'm struggling. 

But Roses in the Ocean do run a it's called a peer warm line. It's called peer care companion. It's not a hotline, so it's not a crisis line, but you can ring there anytime and leave your name and phone number, and someone else with lived experience will call you back in the next 48 hours. It's, as I said, it's called peer care companion, and the phone number's 1 800 777 337, so and yeah, someone will connect back with you. It'll be someone who understands you'll be matched up with with someone who has been through something similar to you. Yeah, and that's all free. 

Other than that, I you know, personally, I find it's odd. I have phoned Kids HelpLine myself, and they have been amazing. They're really helpful. Parent lines, very good and plus Suicide callback service, or Suicide line, Lifeline, all the normal contacts. But I think having someone... you know, I spoke to someone the other day who had someone from a Cast team interviewing them, and they just felt they just cut the interview short, because they just felt whoever this person was, was quite judgmental, and they bought a student with them, and they had been asked. So it's just nice to have other options, you know, definitely, yeah, yeah. So I think this peer warm line is a really good initiative. Anyone from Australia can ring, and that's just totally free as well. Yeah.

Speaker 2 26:58

So thank you so much. Rachel, like I said before, it's been a wonderful conversation. Really enjoyed having you on the show. Thank you for making your time and coming into the studio, chatting with me and just, you know, sharing a few nuggets of your wisdom.

Speaker 3 27:12

I mean, I think when it comes to like deep emotional distress or isolation or suicidality, there are no right words, actually, and it's just better to even sit there and be with someone and say nothing than to do nothing, you know. And hopefully, there'll be a lot more safe spaces available for individuals in the future.

Speaker 2 27:34

Thank you so much for being on.

Speaker 3 27:35

Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 27:37

Thanks for listening to Brainwaves. You can find more of our shows at brainwaves.org.au -  if you'd like to send in any suggestions or feedback, please email us at brainwaves@wellwaves.org ... I hope you were able to take a moment and be present with us today. We'll be back next Wednesday at 5pm for another episode of Brainwaves. We'll see you then.

Speaker 1 (ID)  27:59

You've been listening to a 3CR podcast produced in the studios of independent community radio station 3CR in Melbourne, Australia. For more information, go to all the w's, dot 3CR dot org dot au.