Jana Firestone - new book "Plot Twist"

Speaker 1 00:00

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Speaker 2 00:20

Brainwaves. Hear the world differently. Bringing community mental health to you, raising awareness and challenging stigma. Tune in to 3CR Community Radio, Wednesdays at 5pm.

Speaker 3 00:32

radio program featuring community organizations powerful stories and information. Find us at brainwaves.org.au ... proudly sponsored by Wellways Australia.

Speaker 4 00:47

I would like to begin by paying my respects to the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation, who are the traditional custodians of the land on which I am coming to you from today. Land where at brainwaves we tell our stories, and land where the traditional custodians have told their stories for many, many years before us, and continue to tell their stories. I would like to pay my respects to elders past and present, and acknowledge all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander listeners who are listening today.

Speaker 5 01:18

Hello and welcome to Brainwaves on 3CR, 8 .55am on your dial app or via the live stream. My name is Flick Manning and I'm your host. Joining me today is Jana Firestone. Jana Firestone is a therapist with over 17 years experience working in grief and trauma, as well as with families and young people. She has spent the last 12 years working in a school setting and in private practice. Jana is the host and executive producer of the Curious Life podcast and The Days That Follow, and is the author of two books - her most recent, Plot Twist, a Personal Guide to Surviving Life's Unexpected Curveballs, and the bestseller Embracing Change. She's a keynote speaker and media commentator and lives in Melbourne with her partner and her three young boys. Jana, welcome to the show.

Speaker 6 02:05

Thanks, Flic. Thanks so much for having me. Absolute pleasure.

Speaker 5 02:08

So Jana, as you're both a therapist and of course a person with a fully lived human experience in your own right, I am curious, what does the term mental health mean to you?

Speaker 6 02:19

Well, to me, I feel like it gets a bad rap. You know, people think about mental health when something has gone wrong and you think of it in a negative way. But I feel like our mental health needs to sit alongside our physical health. And at any different time in our life, we could be in peak mental health, we could have low mental health, we could have injuries, we could have, you know, plateaus, we could be, you know, just tracking along nicely. And it's something that we just need to be mindful of all year round, not just when the chips fall down.

Speaker 5 02:56

I couldn't agree with you more. I think we treat mental health as something to be reactive to, as opposed to something to be proactive with. So I think you've highlighted that beautifully. And now on the podcast, The Days That Follow. You do talk a lot about grief and trauma - but with an actual lens of hope, which is quite unique. Can you tell our listeners more about the show, and I guess what inspired you to talk about these sorts of heavier subjects, I guess, as people would normally view them, but through that lens of hope?

Speaker 6 03:24

Yeah, it sort of was born out of many, many conversations and probably from The Curious Life, which is my first podcast, it just sort of seemed that everyone I was talking to had some sort of element of grief in their story, whether it was a minor, you know, comparatively to the extremes of grief that some of us can experience from those everyday griefs to those enormous ones. The thread through all of it was every single one of us goes through grief. There's not one person on this planet that gets out of this life without experiencing grief in one way or another. And I just felt like we weren't talking about it as much as we probably should.

And it doesn't need to be as scary and dark and sad and miserable as grief can actually be. It's about connecting each of us through storytelling and helping everybody feel like, look, this can be the worst thing that ever happens to you in your life, but there is always another side and we will always come through it.

Speaker 6 04:31

And it's not always going to feel as bad as it does the first day that you go through that catastrophic loss or whatever it is. Everything is a season and we do move through it. And, you know, I'm living proof. I've been through it myself. I've worked very closely with people at the coroner's court, for example, who had all lost people suddenly and unexpectedly with no warning. And we all survived. And everybody listening needs to remember that no matter where you are in your grief journey, you will survive this too.

Speaker 5 05:08

Beautifully put, yeah. I mean, grief is just so, it's such a bigger subject than what we are used to thinking of it as. I mean, when we think about the representation of it in our society, you know, most people think of grief if they've not experienced at that larger level, they're looking at what we see in films, what we, you know, hear about in music and things like that. And that's their version of what grief should look like. But it could be losing a job. It could be chronic illness that has come into your life. It could be a thousand different things. Sometimes we grieve things that simply we've just loved a lot, whatever that form takes on, but we don't really touch on that.

In terms of working with people, like you said, you know, through the coroner's office and things like that, what would you say are some of the learnings, maybe, that people have pulled out of the process of grief that you've had the chance to observe or hear?

Speaker 6 06:01

There are just so many, Flic. I mean, everybody. Although the thing that we all have in common is the experience of grief and what happens in the aftermath, but it is completely unique to each of us and to our circumstances. And I think some of the most interesting experiences I had was working with people with different cultural and religious beliefs and not being someone who's very religious at all. In fact, I would not claim to be religious in the slightest, but I have a real interest in spirituality and kind of the universe and, you know, thinking beyond the here and now without any clear view of exactly what that means.

So coming into contact with people who had very clear definitions of what happens to our loved ones when they die made their grief completely different to those who might, like me, have no idea and no kind of proof, if you, for lack of a better word, of what happens next. So with those beliefs, people had a way to challenge or a process to walk through with their grief, whereas other people had much more of a challenge to get through in terms of what happened to my loved one. Where do they go? What happens next? 

But the thing that really stood out in every single story of everyone I worked with, and I worked with people from, you know, the Black Saturday bushfires to, you know, terrible rail disasters to, you know, homicides, suicides, sudden deaths in hospital, every kind of sudden death you can possibly think of. The key thing for everybody was this innate resilience that we all have within us, and we are pre-programmed to survive hard things. And I think when we're in it, it feels like there's absolutely no way we're going to see the other side of this. It is the absolute worst, worst place you can ever imagine yourself. 

But every single one of those people had bucket loads of resilience that they were able to access, sometimes just a tiny little drop of it and other times in vast amounts, and they got through each day and they got through each step. And, you know, every single one of us has that within us. Thankfully, we don't all have to access that all the time.

Speaker 5 08:34

Yeah, I agree with you on that. But what a beautiful way to put it. And also just for all of those that are listening, maybe at home or you're driving home, just to know that that resilience is inbuilt, it is pre-programmed to be there, to be able to access it. And like you said, it might not feel like it at the time, but it is there and it's designed to help us to get through these things. So therein lies that beautiful hope that obviously is that lens in which you approach this subject with, which is, I adore, I love.

Now you come across on your social media accounts as well as very bubbly, very vivacious, and yet you do get into some of this deep and difficult territory that many people would avoid talking about or not really have a reference of how to go through talking about these things. What enables you specifically to approach all of these subjects and I guess to have the desire to approach these subjects in the way that you do?

Speaker 6 09:27

Well, it's a good question. I'm not sure if it's, if these sorts of things are what I've always been drawn to, or if it's a byproduct of having been through grief at a young age and then having worked so closely with grief and trauma and people in those spaces for, you know, I don't know, that's about 18 years now. It's given me a different perspective on life, but I just think there's no point in pretending all of this stuff doesn't exist because every single one of us, as I said, is going to go through something like this. So it's like the conversations that we have now about menopause that were never talked about, you know, 50, 100 years ago, but affects, you know, the majority of the population. I think we're still 51% of the population.

Things like that that can only benefit all of us as a population in the community to be talking about those really sticky and difficult conversations and moments in life. So, yes, there are parts of my life where I do feel really bubbly and, you know, light and excited, but there's a big part of me as well that is always questioning and wondering and wanting to learn from other people's experiences and, Oh, wow, you went through that. How did you do that? What was that like? What got you through it? What didn't work, you know, and taking some of that and then being able to use that in my next experience and sharing it with others in, you know, through these mediums or in my work. 

And, you know, I just think storytelling is the way that we all move forward as a community. So we can't shy away from it.

Speaker 5 11:12

Love that. It's sort of that whole thing of not wanting to do the difficult thing. But in a way, it takes so much more energy from us to be fighting against the tide. And we all know that these things are coming for us in some way, shape or form. It's just such a huge waste of such good energy that we could be doing to explore things and to be good for our community and good to ourselves to fight against the inevitable. So I think the approach that you take is really wonderful.

I think it's also one of those things too where if you have been through something, you are almost more attracted to it. Like perfect example, you go out and buy a yellow car and you think it's really unique and then everybody seems to have a yellow car. I think our brain sort of looks for it where we're looking for a way to connect to the thing that we've experienced. And like you said, we're all going to experience this. So we may as well get connected on it.

Welcome back to Brainwaves on 3CR. I'm your host, Flic Manning. And today I'm joined by author, podcaster and therapist, Jana Firestone. Jana, you've written a couple of books and your most recent, Plot Twist: a Personal Guide to Surviving Life's Unexpected Curveballs, is being lovingly reviewed. So well done. Now, what kind of curveballs can this book assist readers to cope with?

Speaker 6 12:32

Pretty much anything you can think of, all of those sudden and unexpected rug pulls that we all go through in life. It's not a prescription for how to move through things to A, B, C and D and you'll be just fine. It's about sharing stories from my life as a therapist in my own personal story. I went through many different losses and sudden shifts and changes at a, you know, pretty young age, started when I was 21, and all of my twenties was just What next? And it was the next and the next and the next, like so many of us. And through the stories of my clients that I've worked with over the years, who all have so many different stories and experiences to share. 

So I guess, you know, anyone listening can expect that no matter what is happening in your life, maybe the cost of living and the financial pressures and job situations are changing. Maybe there are changes in family dynamics. There's a rift, there's a separation, there's a breakdown. Maybe, as you mentioned before, people might be living with injury or illness that, you know, can be pervasive and chronic and ongoing and not necessarily a sudden change, but it's a plot twist. It's not where you might be expecting to be today or next week or this month or whatever it is. There's, there's something that every single one of us is going to be challenged by at any given time in our lives.

So this book is just a personal guide to walking through that and hopefully for readers to feel seen and heard and to recognize themselves in the pages and perhaps take a few little concepts from the book and be able to apply them to their own lives.

Speaker 5 14:26

Yeah, beautiful. And I think we all need that kind of guide in our lives, really. I mean, as you were alluding to earlier in our conversation, these sorts of things, we don't generally sit down and just have a nice, light, casual conversation about them over the dinner table, you know, with our family and our friends. These are very, it's very reactive, you know, it's when the walls have fallen down that we decide that maybe, maybe then we might actually talk to somebody about these things. So I think having these kinds of guides is just so incredibly useful.

And like you said, people are experiencing a lot of things at all times, but certainly now we've got cost of living crisis, housing crisis, all sorts of stuff happening. So it's very relevant to the time period as well that we're in now, which is awesome for all of us. Now in writing your books, both books, I guess, is that a deeply personal experience for you? I mean, do you excavate, I guess, your own mental health experiences in the process? Or do you try to remain a bit more objective within that experience?

Speaker 6 15:25

Well, unfortunately for me, I can't really talk about this stuff without reflecting and jumping right back into all of it in my own life. So I definitely excavate my own experiences, but I think that's what I enjoy reading. So, you know, when I pick up a book, I don't want to read a dry sort of textbook or anything that's, you know, not really personal and connecting on that human level for me. So I guess that's the sort of book that I tend to write now. And with this book, it didn't start off being as personal as it is. It definitely I skimmed over things and, you know, gave outlines of the big events that happened in my life, like losing Mum and my de facto relationship suddenly ending and, you know, all of these other people in my life dying in quick succession, I gave a kind of snapshot of it all and then moved to what happened next and how I moved through it and all of that.

And my publisher was the one who said, well, this is all great. But I know what really went on. And I think the readers will really want to hear that close and personal detail of what it really was like going through those experiences and what was the next day like? What was the next week like? What was the next month like? And not just kind of skipping to and look at me now.

Speaker 5 16:52

Now I'm okay. Yes, exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 6 16:59

So yeah, it just ended up becoming far more personal and this book, the second book, Plot Twist, is I would almost say half memoir and half anecdotes from my professional life.

Speaker 5 17:15

Yeah, beautiful. I think I totally agree with you on that. I'm definitely attracted to reading those same kinds of books. When I wrote my book, it was much the same. I thought it was going to be more of a self-development book and then it sort of slowly evolved into being much more memoir. I can fully understand, you know, but it does help people to connect to the experience of it. I think sometimes it's that thing of moving another person actually helps them to really take things on. So I appreciate that. And having obviously read your new book, I can completely understand what it is you're talking about. 

And those at home, I know I will be plugging it again at the end of the show, but you definitely need to get a copy of this book. It's going to be very useful, but I think it will also just move you as a human being too. Now, Yana, while it can be hard to break a book down, I guess, into a single point, there's so many things and so many different messages that you're trying to share in the process of writing a book. But can you describe to our listeners what the most crucial piece of advice is from your book that you believe will resonate with people the most and why that might resonate with them the most?

Speaker 6 18:20

Well, as you say, very hard to condense it down to one idea. However, I think really the overarching theme is that as we touched on before, this will touch each and every one of us at some point in our lives. It doesn't mean we need to live in fear and brace for this big, bad thing that's going to happen one day. But just to know that when something happens that throws us off course, that we may not be ready for, just to know that you will be okay, I think is the most important piece in all of this. Because when you're in it, it absolutely feels like you're never going to be okay again and your life will never be the same. And how could you possibly ever move past whatever this big thing is? 

But the truth is we all do. We all find ways to cope and to get to the next chapter and to accept that we're never going to be the person that we were before. And we have to let go of the idea of trying to get back to who we were before because we're forever changed when we go through something like this. And that's okay. It just means we're heading to our new normal and the new version of us, the after, not the before. And all of those things are making us stronger, giving us resilience, giving us access to a deep part of ourselves that we probably never knew was there before.

And through that, we're going to be able to connect with other people in a way that is only possible once you've walked through this door. And as much as you would never wish anybody out of your life or you would never wish a terrible experience on yourself, there is always something good that comes from these terrible experiences and you might not see it straight away, but eventually you will. And you'll see the growth and the learning and the development that happens within you because of these hardships. And that's in every single one of us.

Speaker 5 20:35

Yeah, beautifully put. I mean, I literally have got some little chills happening on my arm because they're just, that's just so perfectly worded. I mean, pain is the precursor to all growth. And that is such a hard concept for people, I think, to get around. But I think when you have experienced it, however that presents in your life, it becomes more obvious that it exists in so many ways. And our job is to just try and work out how to move forward as the new version of ourself each time we come across these things. Absolutely. Love that. 

If you're just tuning in, this is Brainwaves on 3CR. I'm Flic Manning, your host. And today my guest is Jana Firestone. Jana, you have spoken to a range of familiar faces and voices across the Australian landscape on subjects that range from sobriety to self-love, grief, trauma, everything that we've been talking about. What conversation stands out to you the most as one that I guess really opened your eyes or took you by surprise in what it taught you?

Speaker 6 21:33

Well, when I was thinking about this, the one conversation that leapt out and then again, there are just so many and I've been very lucky to talk with incredible people who've been through unbelievable things and come out the other side. But the one that kind of stood out to me after the morning that I've had is my conversation with Kate Langbroek, who people will know from TV and radio. And at the time I was pregnant with my third son and she's a mother of three boys and a girl. And we were talking about that and she shared some of the experience she went through when her oldest son was going through leukemia at the age of five and coming very, very close to losing him. 

And, you know, we'd begun some of that conversation with me, you know, whinging and complaining and wondering how I was going to cope with three boys and what did I do to end up with three boys as my lot in life, you know, forever to be exhausted and overwhelmed and have the noise and the energy and all of that to live with. And then she was talking about her beautiful boy and that experience and just how close they came to losing him. And everything shifted and everything came back into stark contrast and perspective. And I was just like, Yeah, that's that's what we need to think about. You know, she said to me, Yes, boys are chaos and all of those things, but they're magic at the same time.

And she talked about the families that weren't as lucky as she was in the same time that she was in the hospital with her son. And I asked her, you know, how did you show up every day, be a parent, be a mum, be a carer for a sick child and continue to show up every single day watching him go through the the trauma that he had to go through with the kinds of treatments he was undergoing. And she said there were times where she would have wanted to be plucked out of the sky by aliens and never brought back. But what kept bringing her back every day was the sheer force of her love for her child. And that is what got her there every day and pushed her through all of those awful, desperate and, you know, distressing days, the force of that immense love. And that has really stayed with me.

Speaker 5 24:07

Hmm. I can imagine what a powerful conversation to have, what a perspective shift to experience, but also just how highlighting the beauty in that we have such intense feelings as human beings to have, you know, emotions get pooh-poohed on all the time. And yet emotions are in so many ways, the most powerful thing that we have inside us and that we can offer another human being that vulnerability is just beautiful at the same time as sometimes heartbreaking. So what a powerful, powerful conversation to have. Thank you for sharing that, Jana. 

And sadly, that is our time having to wrap up. I've got more questions for you. I knew I would run out of time to talk to you about it. We'll have to get you back on the show at some stage. So thank you so much for sharing everything with us today. And of course, I wish you nothing but the greatest success with your books and your podcasts as well.

Speaker 6 24:59

Oh, thank you so much, Flic. It's been an absolute treat talking with you. Thanks so much for having me. Pleasure.

Speaker 5 25:05

Now, everyone at home, do make sure you go out and grab Jana's book. We've mentioned before, she's got two books, but make sure you go and grab that most recent one, Plot Twist: a Personal Guide to Surviving Life's Unexpected Curveballs. It's available in stores and online. And of course, you can follow everything that's happening with Jana's podcast at thecuriouslife.net or on Instagram at the Curious Life podcast. So basically, just get on and do a big bunch of Googling for Jana and you will find her. Follow her everywhere. She's absolutely fantastic. 

And of course, as we end the show today, I do want to remind you as always that your mental health is of equal importance to your physical health. So if you are yet to do so today, please align the two of them now by taking a nice deep breath in, a deep exhale out, and remember to shower yourself with the kindness that you so easily give to others. I look forward to joining you next time on Brainwaves.

Speaker 7 26:02

You've been listening to a 3CR podcast, produced in the studios of independent community radio station 3CR in Melbourne, Australia. For more information, go to all-the-w's dot 3cr dot org dot AU.