Episode 6 - Sam Drummond and Sara Shams

Jason Clymo 0:00
(THEME MUSIC) Welcome to Reframed - the panel show that analyses all things disability in media. (MUSIC) My name is Jason Clymo, and I am one of your co-hosts. I'm a young queer person with disability who has dabbled in some acting and modelling, and I'm also a business owner. I'm fiercely passionate about the accurate representation of people with disability on screen.

Stephanie Dower 0:30
And I'm Stephanie Dower. I'm a filmmaker, I'm an access coordinator, and I'm also a keen traveller, but I'm really excited to talk all things disability on screen - today with our panel of guests. So let's meet who we've got with us today... Sara is a proud disabled woman of colour. She is an experienced speaker, model, creator, actor and disability activist. Welcome Sara.

Sara Shams 0:52
Thank you so much.

Jason Clymo 0:53
Welcome Sara. We've also been joined today by Sam Drummond. Sam is a parent, lawyer, writer and disability activist. He specialises in discrimination and human rights law, and recently released his memoir Broke. When Sam is not parenting, writing or working, he can be found swimming laps of Melbourne's outdoor pools, tending to his native garden, or discovering parts of the world he didn't get to experience as a kid. We're both so excited to welcome you on and we can't wait to get stuck into analysing some disability on screen. (MUSIC ENDS)

Stephanie Dower 1:28
All right, now it's time for our first segment: Get Your Head in the Frame. So what we'll do is, I'll be reading out three questions, all multiple choice, and if you want to buzz in, just raise your hand and say your name, and first one to the post gets to answer. The prize today is... satisfaction. (LAUGHTER) So all right, first question everyone: Currently, what percentage of free-to-air commercial TV stations must run local Australian content between 6am and midnight? A, 60%... B, 55%... or C, 20%?

Sara Shams 2:03
I'll go B.

Stephanie Dower 2:04
Sara...

Sara Shams 2:05
55%.

Stephanie Dower 2:07
You are correct.

Jason Clymo 2:07
Oh, well done.

Stephanie Dower 2:08
See, fired into the wind. I love that. (LAUGHTER)

Jason Clymo 2:08
She's getting sassier.

Stephanie Dower 2:13
Okay. Question number 2: What genre of TV in the UK has the biggest representation of disabled people in media? A, children's TV... B, comedy... C, current affairs. (COMPETING CALLS) Oh, I think Jason's just got it.

Jason Clymo 2:30
Is it children's TV?

Stephanie Dower 2:31
Yes, it is, thankfully.

Sam Drummond 2:33
And is part of that... Australia's own Kiruna Stamell, from Play School? (PAUSE, AH, OHs etc)

Stephanie Dower 2:42
Ah, I wonder?

Sam Drummond 2:42
I want to check out the research, but I know she went on to it for some other...

Stephanie Dower 2:46
In the UK, oh I don't know...

Sam Drummond 2:47
... yeah, adult content as well. Not "adult" content. (LAUGHTER)

Stephanie Dower 2:55
Someone's got to go on to other things.

Sara Shams 2:56
Representation needs to be everywhere.

Stephanie Dower 2:58
That's right, exactly. Yeah. (LAUGHTER)

Jason Clymo 3:02
It's nice that children's TV is always... leading the way.

Stephanie Dower 3:05
It is, especially nowadays, I feel like it's taken a while, but...

Sam Drummond 3:10
I think it's because it always... like also includes like, animations as well.

Stephanie Dower 3:17
Yes, that's true. That's true. Yeah, good point.

Sam Drummond 3:20
But also, kids are more able to accept...

Stephanie Dower 3:22
That's true, that's true... yes.

Sam Drummond 3:24
... outside what you'd usually see, they haven't been inundated with fifty years of the same... straight adult content.

Stephanie Dower 3:34
Yes, yeah, okay, last question: 62% of internet users in the US use which media platform daily? A, free-to-air TV, okay?... B, YouTube... C, Spotify.

Sam Drummond 3:49
Buzz.

Stephanie Dower 3:50
Sam.

Sam Drummond 3:51
YouTube.

Stephanie Dower 3:52
Correct.

Jason Clymo 3:52
Yeah, welldone.

Stephanie Dower 3:53
It was between YouTube and Spotify. (VARIOUS REACTS)

Sam Drummond 3:56
But Spotify costs... more...

Stephanie Dower 3:58
It does. Yes, YouTube's a bit more accurate. All right. Well, that was Get Your Head in the Frame. Well done everyone. (VARIOUS: Yeah, I know...)

We're all about diversity here. Everyone gets a point, right? Yeah. (MUSIC STING) Now we're moving on to Show and Talk. So this is where we're going to... watch a piece of media that each of our guests have brought in with them today, and then we'll have a bit of a discussion about perhaps what's good disability representation and what maybe could be improved on. So let's watch the first clip... (MUSIC STING)

(media clip) 4:35
(Male): She's the queen bee, the star. Those are the two are just her little workers. (Female 1:) Regina, George - how do I even begin to explain Regina George? (Female:) Regina George is flawless. (Female:) She has two Fendi purses and a silver Lexus. (Male:) I hear her hair is insured for $10,000. (Female:) I hear she does car commercials in Japan. (Female:) Her favorite movie is Varsity Blues. (Female:) One time she met John Stamos on a plane and he told her she was pretty. (Female:) One time she punched me in the face. It was awesome! (MUSIC STING)

Stephanie Dower 5:03
Okay, so for anyone who doesn't know, this is Mean Girls - the OG Mean Girls. Sara, I believe you brought this to the table?

Jason Clymo 5:11
Before you like, go. I just want to say, like, this... is so amazing that you've chosen this. (LAUGHTER) It's probably one of the most important things that anyone has ever done on this show for the queer community in the entirety of anything so like I just, just...

Stephanie Dower 5:25
Just for anyone who loves a good one-liner as well, perfect choice. Yes.

Jason Clymo 5:29
Means a lot.

Sara Shams 5:30
Thank you. No. It was... honestly, when I was sent that question, I thought, Oh my goodness, what am I going to go with? Because... and then I looked through all the different podcasts and the episodes that you had, and I thought, I wonder if it's been done... yet? Or not?

Jason Clymo 5:42
... And I'm ashamed of myself that I haven't. (LAUGHTER)

Sara Shams 5:46
No, I was like, I really hope no one's discussed this movie already. But, you know, honestly, growing up in... Mean... it was 2004 when it was first released...

Stephanie Dower 5:53
20 years ago.

Sara Shams 5:54
20 years ago, which is wild. When it was first released, it was something that I grew up with. I was still in high school, and it was something that I...you know, when I first watched it, I thought... actually quite interesting,there's actually people with disability in this movie, even though it's just fleeting moments, but they were still there. And... you know, we'll go, we'll talk about the negative aspects of the movie, because there are plenty...

Stephanie Dower 6:18
There are plenty of these...

Sara Shams 6:18
... but at least that... this component of the representation, for me was almost, it was just normalised. They were just one of the... kids at the school. It wasn't about their disability, it was just... Regina. George (Yeah...) So for me, that was quite interesting, and it was a movie that really shaped high school (Yeah...) growing up. And to have that representation, at least there, at the time... was a big thing for me, even...there was a really tiny aspect of the movie, at least it was there. Yeah, so that's why. And also, I just love the movie.

Jason Clymo 6:51
When you say it shaped High School... I was in high school at the time as well... but isn't it just a reflection of what high school is?

Sara Shams 6:58
Oh, absolutely, and all the bad parts of it as well. But, and I guess a part of that is a bit sad, because for me, at least, there was representation of disability in it... because everything else, there was... all the other movies at the time - and even, interestingly enough, there's been a 2024 remake of Mean Girls, but - there, and which is really quite inclusive with all the other things, but not disability. So disability is just completely glossed over.

Stephanie Dower 6:58
And I find it absolutely bizarre that the new one has just erased disability completely - and like, again, like, as you were saying, like... you know, as much as like, you know, it's not necessarily perfect representation (LAUGHTER, Absolutely not.) But at least it was there, at least they were seen in the fabric of the school community, you know? So, yeah...

Jason Clymo 7:45
Give a bit of context about the character that we're talking about.

Stephanie Dower 7:49
I mean, is there much context?

Jason Clymo 7:51
The minimal context that is available. (LAUGHTER)

Sara Shams 7:53
For the... there's basically two characters (Yeah) - one is in a wheelchair, yeah, and one person is of short stature, and I think that's one scene with the one that we just watched... and then the next scene, I believe, is a trustful scene. And I can't remember the line, but basically they're having a trustful scene where they're bonding with the other students.

Jason Clymo 7:57
Is the wheelchair user the one that says, like, You're not fat.... I don't hate you because you're fat, you're fat because I hate you.

Sara Shams 8:21
Because I hate you. Yes, she's the one that says that, and then she trust-falls backwards and the wheelchair...

Jason Clymo 8:25
Crashes.

Sara Shams 8:26
Yeah... so that's really, that's the only character building...

Jason Clymo 8:30
How the fuck did they get her up there? (LAUGHTER)

Stephanie Dower 8:33
You know, that's, that's something...

Sara Shams 8:35
Maybe there's a ramp. We don't know.

Stephanie Dower 8:36
We don't know, but that's something I always hate. I think we've talked about this on a previous episode. Is when people, particularly wheelchair users, magically get, like, you know, they approach this building and all it seems like is stairs to get inside, then they're magically inside, or up like, five levels and like... How did you do that?

Jason Clymo 8:53
Bippity boppity boo...

Stephanie Dower 8:54
Yeah, with a magic wand. (LAUGHTER)

Sara Shams 8:56
That's what they want.

Jason Clymo 8:58
Yeah, I mean, I agree. Like, it's, it's kind of amazing that there was disability representation. Think, on the other hand, it's like, so small... (Tiny, tiny...) Also, Regina uses the R word multiple times... (YEAH...)

Sara Shams 9:13
And all that are negative, obviously...

Stephanie Dower 9:15
Yeah, definitely not a cool thing to say, yeah...

Jason Clymo 9:19
It's used intended as an insult.

Stephanie Dower 9:21
Also, I don't know, does anyone know if the person like playing the wheelchair user, did they actually use a wheelchair in real life? I don't know.

Jason Clymo 9:30
I don't know... but from memory, I feel like the wheelchair is like, so not the type of chair that you will actually be going to school in. (Yeah, exactly...) It's like, this... (INDISTINCT VARIOUS)... it's so clunky.

Stephanie Dower 9:44
A higher...

Sara Shams 9:44
Which would make me think that she's probably not an actor that uses a wheelchair.

Jason Clymo 9:49
Because I'd be like, You're not fucking putting me in that thing.

Stephanie Dower 9:51
Yeah, exactly.

Sara Shams 9:54
Another aspect of the film that I realised was quite... insulting-slash-negative for people with disability is... when Regina gets hit by a bus - she has to wear that brace... (Yes, yeah)... And then all of a sudden, disability is almost cool, because she...

Stephanie Dower 10:09
Everyone else wants to be Regina, yeah...

Sara Shams 10:11
And so previously, she was this cool, popular white blonde girl, yeah. And then she gets hit by a bus, has to wear a brace, but she looks, she's rocking it. She's still rocking it because... she's pretty cool.

Stephanie Dower 10:22
Even... doesn't the wheelchair user, she puts a brace on, I think at the end as well, like to be cool like Regina. I think could be wrong, but yeah...

Sara Shams 10:29
That's probably true, yeah.

Stephanie Dower 10:31
I think the other issue that I have with the disability representation is the wheelchair user and the person of short stature, hey're friends with each other, yeah? And they're always seen together. And, like, wouldn't it have been amazing if, like, one of them was in the art group, one of them was in the music group, one of them was in the drop group, like... just to spread it out a little bit/ Yeah.

Sara Shams 10:52
And also, in the lunchroom, they're grouped as the Wannabe table, yeah? Like, you know, wanna be normal, wanna be cool... wannabe, like... It.

Jason Clymo 11:00
But I'm glad they didn't make, like... the Crips table...

Stephanie Dower 11:04
The Special Needs table... (LAUGHTER)

Jason Clymo 11:09
Oh my god...

Stephanie Dower 11:09
Yeah. Not great. Not great, yeah.

Jason Clymo 11:12
Anyway, I feel like, Mean Girls is a very... I'll be a Mean Girls loyalist to the day I die. Because (LAUGHTER) yeah. Love the movie.

Stephanie Dower 11:19
We can enjoy these things, but also, you know... we know that not everything is going to be perfect with these....

Jason Clymo 11:25
You can enjoy something, but still call it out, so...

Stephanie Dower 11:28
Exactly. I think what I'm sorely disappointed by is that they didn't do any better. 20 years later, that is...

Sara Shams 11:36
They went backwards.

Stephanie Dower 11:37
... astounding to me. (Yeah, absolutely.)

All ryeah, all right, ight... the third remake of Mean Girls gonna be all disability, nothing else.

Sara Shams 11:48
You guys probably should... start thinking about that.

Stephanie Dower 11:51
Yeah, I think we should, yeah yeah. (LAUGHTER) Any investors out there want to, you know, bring money to the table, yeah, perfect. All right, well, now we might move on to Sam's piece of media. Let's roll the clip... (MUSIC STING)

(media clip) 12:12
(MUSIC FROM WIZARD OF OZ) (Munchkins sing:) We represent the Lollipop Guild... and in the name of the Lollipop Guild, we wish to welcome you to Munchkinland. (CLAMOUR. MUSIC STING)

Stephanie Dower 12:31
Okay, The Wizard of Oz....

Sam Drummond 12:33
So this is 1939... America... the rest of the world's at war, and America is sort of pretending that it's never gonna happen, and they're producing these classic films, like The 1940 Oscars was dominated by Gone with the Wind, but also dotted with The Wizard of Oz. And it's very early filmmaking, it's a big moment where she steps out into Oz and this colour... but it's also in the context of of Nazi Germany as well. 

And there's 124 Munchkins, and many of them have come, have fled from Europe because they... were at risk of being killed, because they weren't the perfect being, and it's not a lot... we don't often talk about disability in the Second World War in the context of genocide, but yeah, but that's the context that the Munchkins came to be.

Stephanie Dower 13:32
Yeah, yeah.

Sam Drummond 13:33
And... so a lot of them couldn't even speak English, and were dubbed over by Americans because they didn't want a German accent, or they wanted someone to... speak English in the film. And they've they've come up, they've been essentially rounded up, and weren't making a living. It comes from a long history of people of... short statured people not being able to make a living and travelling around in circuses as the only means of doing that. 

And so... as a representation, it's not great, because that is one of the first films I ever see, I ever saw and... for a lot of people, it is. I don't think it's as problematic as films after that, particularly in the context of being made in 1939 in the wake of... though, that history of it, I don't think it's the worst out there - but those stories that came out of it have followed people for the decades to come.

And so they were locked up in a hotel and ferried in a bus to and from the studio and then given alcohol at the hotel. They were paid $50 a week, which is about $900 a week these days...,

Stephanie Dower 14:57
Should we give some context as to how much the dog was paid?

Jason Clymo 15:00
So it's about half of what Toto was paid.

Stephanie Dower 15:03
That dog... blew my mind when you said, I was like, are you... okay? (LAUGHTER)

Sam Drummond 15:10
So that's how much they're valuing these characters. They weeded out what they referred to as... achondroplastic midgets, and they use the term frequently, so they wanted them to be proportional and childlike.

Stephanie Dower 15:27
I did wonder about that, because, yeah, typically achondroplasia is what you would see most. Is that? Right? That's the most common form. Yes, yeah. And I, you know, looking at this clip again, I was like, Yeah, you don't see that, which is really interesting, yeah.

Sam Drummond 15:42
Yeah. And they, one thing that you might have noticed as well is they also wedded out the people of colour. So there was a dancer, an African-American dancer, who was just by... like, out and out, the best dancer of any of them, and they pushed him away, and he ended up living a horrible life after that... because they wanted white people in this fantasy land. 

And what we saw after the Wizard of Oz was Julie Garland, who played Dorothy, came out and said on a talk show... that they were all drunk, they... had to be rounded up with butterfly nets at the end of the night...

Stephanie Dower 16:20
I was going to say, Judy Garland's not one to talk about that.

Sam Drummond 16:23
Exactly, but she's... allowed to, because she's able-bodied so she's human, yeah. But suddenly, this idea of... these people who are locked up in a hotel with booze for months at a time, what are you going to do? And there are a few problematic ones, but of course, they were going to be...

Stephanie Dower 16:39
There's always problematic people, yeah, exactly. Yeah. There's always a few.

Sam Drummond 16:42
And so once... Judy Garland said that, then they've been story after story of making this myth of what the Munchkins got up to in 1938 during the filming. And one of them later said, It's five minutes of entertainment for you, but it's dynamite for the rest of our lives. Yeah, and I think that's right, of any portrayal that's problematic, of any disability, but particularly dwarfism, is that it follows us down the street with calls of Midget, or it might be like filming or whatever...

Jason Clymo 17:13
Mini-me's a very good example of that. It's like, you know, it's very easy, light humour, poking fun for non-disabled people watching... or, you know, possibly even myself watching, like, I could easily take it that way. But for you, like that would follow you.

Sam Drummond 17:27
Yeah.

Stephanie Dower 17:28
I think the one little... not saving grace in terms of representation, but more behind the scenes, like, as you were saying, like this was, like, probably one of the first times that people of short stature got to see other people who were short stature, and actually have that, like environment around them, and that community, which I think is probably the only saving grace to that entire story...

Sam Drummond 17:50
And actually the what's now, the Little People of America (it started...) Organisation started from this film, because people from all over the country, in different countries, from around the world got together and said, There are other people like us... (Yeah) ... let's organise. And that's a really powerful thing.

Stephanie Dower 18:09
One good legacy, out of... yeah... (LAUGHTER) (MUSIC STING)

Jason Clymo 18:12
And now it's time for Ads Askew, where we will be checking out a TV ad for the first time - it's a surprise for all of us on the panel - and just be really giving you our live reactions, to work out if this ad has gone askew in terms of disability representation, or if it has nailed it. So let's roll the ad... (MUSIC STING) Already I'm... Oh, not feeling good about this...

(media clip) 18:38
(OMINOUS HUM) (Male:) I am Autism. I'm visible in your children, but if I can help it, I am invisible to you until it's too late. I know where you live, and guess what? I live there too. I hover around all of you. I know no colour barrier, no religion, no morality, no currency. I speak your language fluently, and with every voice I take away, I acquire yet another language I work very quickly. I work faster than Pediatric AIDS, cancer and diabetes combined. And if you are happily married, I will make sure that your marriage fails. Your money will fall into my hands and I will bankrupt you for my own self gain. 

I don't sleep - so I make sure you don't either. I will make it virtually impossible for your family to easily attend the temple, a birthday party, a public park without a struggle, without embarrassment, without pain. You have no cure for me. Your scientists don't have the resources, and I relish their desperation. Your neighbors are happier to pretend that I don't exist - of course, until it's their child. 

I am Autism. I have no interest in right or wrong. I derive great pleasure out of your loneliness. I will fight to take away your hope. I will plot to rob you of your children in your dreams, I will make sure that every day you wake up, you will cry, wondering who will take care of my child after I die. And the truth is, I am still winning, and you are scared, and you should be. I am Autism. You ignored me. That was a mistake. 

(MELODIC GUITAR NOTES) (Various voices, Male/female:) And to Autism, I say I am a father... a mother... a grandparent... brother... sister... We will spend every waking hour trying to weaken you... We don't need sleep because we will not rest until you do... Family can be much stronger than Autism ever anticipated, and we will not be intimidated by you, nor will the love and strength of my community... I am a parent riding towards you, and you can push me off this horse time and time again, but I will get up, climb back on, and ride on with the message... 

Autism, you forget who we are. You forget who you are dealing with. You forget the spirit of mothers and daughters and fathers and sons.... We are the United Kingdom, United States. European Union.... We are united nations... We are coming together in all climates... We call on all faiths. We search with technology... and voodoo, prayer and herbs, genetic studies... And a growing awareness you never anticipated... We have had challenges, but we are the best when overcoming them... 

We speak the only language that matters.... (ALL TOGETHER) Love for our children... (VARIOUS:) Our capacity to love is greater than your capacity to overwhelm... Autism is naive.... You are alone... We are a community of warriors. (ALL:) We have a voice... (VARIOUS:) You think because some of our children cannot speak, we cannot hear them - that is autism's weakness... You think that because my child lives behind a wall, I am afraid to knock it down with my bare hands?... 

You have not properly been introduced to this community... (ALL:) Of parents and grandparents, of siblings and friends, and schoolteachers and pediatricians and scientists. (VARIOUS:) Autism. If you are not scared, you should be... when you came for my child, you forgot... (ALL:) You came for me. (Female:) Autism, are you listening? (MELODIC CHORD RESOLVES, ECHOES) (THEME MUSIC STING)

Jason Clymo 21:38
That was a journey, by the way... like... (I don't know...) horror movie like Taken vibes at the start... and then to like...

Sara Shams 22:26
I'm still gathering myself...

Jason Clymo 22:28
Love and family will defeat autism... like I'm just, What?

Sara Shams 22:32
And also... sorry, the date at the bottom was 2006?

Stephanie Dower 22:36
Oh well, sorry... yeah, okay, but...

Jason Clymo 22:38
I feel like I was laughing at the most inappropriate times, because I was like, if I don't laugh, I think, just... (LAUGHS)

Stephanie Dower 22:42
Like so absurd, like that... oh, it demonised autism. It like, made it a villain. It did all the disability tropes, just through narration (Literally!) And then... I'm sorry, I can't say... it's just, I'm I'm astounded by that entire thing. I don't know what that was.

Usually the... in an ad, you're trying to sell something.

Speaker 1 23:03
I don't know what their message was at all.

Sara Shams 23:07
I think they're trying to sell the fact that you need to... gather together and fight this new war.

Stephanie Dower 23:15
Well, it sounds like...

Jason Clymo 23:16
Which would then also then be like, Donate money, probably, yeah....

Stephanie Dower 23:20
Like, so I... there, you know, it's like, no, like... (VARIOUS INTERJECTIONS, LAUGHTER) My favourite part was, Autism will destroy all the marriages... (LAUGHTER)

Sam Drummond 23:33
The marriage was... they seem to have based the start of the ad off the AIDS ad from the 80s. (Yeah, etc)

Sara Shams 23:41
... Did they say worse than childhood cancer and AIDS? Did they say that?

Jason Clymo 23:48
Where'd they pull that fucking data from? Like, worse, how?

Sara Shams 23:53
I actually generally didn't know how to react, I'm like... and also it just wouldn't finish - it was going on forever.

Sam Drummond 23:58
But who do they think's watching it? like I think they think autism is watching.

Speaker 1 23:59
Yes, it's Autism watching, we're coming for you Autism

Sam Drummond 24:02
It was aimed at this Autism...

Sara Shams 24:07
Sentient being.

Jason Clymo 24:10
Well, I think we can pretty confidently say that one was askew...

Stephanie Dower 24:14
That was the most askew thing I think I've seen, across all episodes that was, yeah...

Jason Clymo 24:20
Askew in that ad.

Speaker 1 24:21
But they achieved their aim...

Stephanie Dower 24:24
We're talking about...?

Sam Drummond 24:25
Well it made me cry, so...

Sara Shams 24:27
Good bye autism?

Sam Drummond 24:28
Well, to... they've cured it, it's done.

Stephanie Dower 24:30
They've cured it. We're done with that. (LAUGHTER) They've taken away its voice, it's all good, no worries.

Sam Drummond 24:36
Autism is dead.

Stephanie Dower 24:37
Far out, that was... (MUSIC STING) We're almost out of time, after all that. But before we go, let's just do our Speedy Suggestions. So Sam, and we might start with you.

Sam Drummond 24:51
There's been a lot of talk about sport recently. Paralympics. Don't just let it be a flash in the pan. Keep supporting community disabled sport, starting with the Victorian Wheelchair Football League. Get on their Instagram, follow them. And yeah, it's great. Yeah, it's fun.

Stephanie Dower 25:08
Amazing, awesome. And Sara?

Sara Shams 25:10
Well, it took me at some time to find something that was a positive representation of disability that I thought, and... it's an animated film about How to Train Your Dragon. (Yes, great.) It showed disability in a positive light, but also just as a part of life, and it wasn't just the be-all and end-all of the characters. So...

Jason Clymo 25:27
if you can, like, trust, like a kids movie too

Sara Shams 25:30
Yes, absolutely.

Stephanie Dower 25:31
Children's TV is where it's at, currently. Yeah.

Jason Clymo 25:34
I thought I'd take a bit more of, like, a serious suggestion for like, all the employers out there. I think there's a lot of, like, stigma around asking questions for people when you're hiring them, especially, or, like, conducting interviews. I'm an employer - I'd like to think I'm an inclusive employer. I do everything I possibly can think of, and, you know, stay up with the standards. 

But honestly, the best thing that you could be doing when running interviews, when considering hiring people, is just ask them what they actually would need for the process to be accessible... and then obviously implement those accommodations. Don't just ask and do nothing. Ask and implement.

Stephanie Dower 26:09
Yeah, for sure. And for my Speedy Suggestion, I'm gonna do a little shameless plug here - a series that I worked on last year called Game Changers. You can find it on Tiktok and Instagram, I believe. And we follow 13 young athletes at the top of their fields, and three of them para athletes... who I got to work with. 

So I, you know, the Paralympics have just been on, you know, I feel like para sport is really in the zeitgeist at the moment. So check out Game Changers and other para sport-related content... or go see a local game. I saw wheelchair basketball recently, and it was cutthroat. It is terrifying to watch. It is savage - I remember the smell of the burning rubber.

Jason Clymo 26:52
Oh, my god!

Stephanie Dower 26:53
Yeah. And even, like, their chairs hit so hard sometimes, sparks will fly out. Like it is, like... yeah, check it out. It's really fun, and really impressive.

Jason Clymo 27:03
So also... people at home, when you ask someone like me, like, Oh, are you gonna start playing wheelchair basketball, wheelchair rugby? Like, fucking no! And that's why - it's scary.

Stephanie Dower 27:12
It's too scary.

Sara Shams 27:13
And honestly, people with disability, we're not all elite athletes.

Stephanie Dower 27:17
No, very much not.

Sara Shams 27:19
We really are not.

Stephanie Dower 27:20
We can appreciate it.

Sara Shams 27:22
Yes, absolutely.

Stephanie Dower 27:23
Any people can. But we are not all athletes. We are not all Paralympians.

Jason Clymo 27:27
Also that's not the only thing that we could probably do that's meaningful with our lives.

Stephanie Dower 27:30
(LAUGHS) We can do other things sometimes. Yes, yeah, yeah,

Jason Clymo 27:34
Before we jump off, where can people stay up to date - book you for jobs, whatever, follow you?

Sam Drummond 27:43
Follow on Samuel G Drummond at Instagram... and there's a podcast coming out on Powerd Media, Spaces - you can follow that as well. And buy the book Broke.

Jason Clymo 27:56
Yes, absolutely,

Sara Shams 27:57
Follow me on Instagram on No Legs No Worries.

Stephanie Dower 28:01
(LAUGHS) I love that.

Sara Shams 28:03
And yeah, send me messages if you want more information.

Jason Clymo 28:06
Yeah, great.

Stephanie Dower 28:07
Thank you. And if you'd like to see more of Reframed and discuss anything that we've talked about on the show, check out our social media channels, and stay tuned for more episodes. Thank you. Bye. (MUSIC OUT)