Reframed - Zoe Simmons + Olivia Hargroder

Jason Clymo 0:06

Jason, welcome to reframe the panel show that analyzes all things disability in media.

Stephanie Dower 0:17

I'm Jason Kleiman and I'm Stephanie Dower, and let's meet today's special guests who have joined us at the desk. First up, we have Zoe Simmons, who is an award winning journalist, author, speaker and disability advocate. Zoe has been published hundreds of times around the globe, including by The Daily Mail, Mamma mia, Daily Telegraph and The Herald Sun. Very impressive,

Jason Clymo 0:40

incredible, amazing. And we're also joined by Olivia hargroda, who is an emerging talent on stage, screen and podium, a graduate from nida's Young Actors Studio. She's also competed in the Special Olympics, spoke in front of the United Nations, as well as starring recently on ABCs. Better date than never. Welcome to you both and oh my god, we're in good company. Yeah, very esteemed company. Now let's get to know you both better. So Zoe, we shall start with you. What is the most common harmful stigma around disability that you find yourself addressing in your writing?

Zoe Simmons 1:18

Oh my gosh. I'm not sure I can just say one, but I think there's so much stigma about invisible disability, and there's also so much stigma about using things that help you live better. For example, a wheelchair. I have chronic illness and chronic pain, so while I am an ambituary wheelchair user, I use a wheelchair because it helps. And the amount of ableism and stigma I got from that was awful when people like, when I started identifying as disabled, people were like, Oh, don't call yourself that and things like that. And it's just it really shows there is such a poor view of disability in mainstream media, in the community, we really don't see it represented much so, oh gosh, so much ableism, and we just really need to disabled people are people,

Jason Clymo 2:06

and I feel like what you're sort of touching on then is, like the word disabled isn't like a bad word, like, it's just a neutral,

Zoe Simmons 2:14

no, yeah, just getting people to use the word disabled is so big because people tiptoe around it like differently abled or Handi capable, and it's like, Please, no, please. Just call it the disability is not shameful, so just use it, embrace it, include us, think about us.

Stephanie Dower 2:35

If we use it in a neutral way, then maybe we can normalize and just be accepted for who we are, as you said, as as people.

Zoe Simmons 2:44

Yeah, even the word is stigmatized. Exactly what does that say about how is that represented in the community?

Stephanie Dower 2:49

Now, Olivia, we might come to you and learn a bit more about yourself. Can you tell us a bit about your experience on a little show called Better date than never?

Olivia Hargroder 2:59

Of course, I would absolutely love to the experience that I've had, and better date than ever has been incredible. I could not have asked for a better crew to actually shoot such an amazing TV show, because back then, I had never stepped out on a date or anything it was. And I've never been on a first date. I've never kissed anyone before, and when I first stepped out on my first date, I felt both nervous and excited, all like all in one go, because I didn't I didn't know what it would actually feel like to actually step on your first day ever. And I did, and the and the first day that I went on was a lit was kinda a bit awkward, but, but hey, I still had, I still had a really good time. And the feeling I the feeling when I stepped up on that first date was amazing. I absolutely loved it. I wanted to do more. And then I stepped down on my second first second date ever, and I met this beautiful guy. We were boyfriend and girlfriend for almost two years, and that then earlier this year, we went to the Taylor Swift concert, and we got engaged there. But unfortunately, after that, three months after, I do have a very, very brutish heart, but I know that I always believe in love. So I am excited to see who comes the one that called me next 100%

Stephanie Dower 4:48

I think you just described the journey of literally every person out there who is in the dating world. I think that's something that I particularly loved. We were talking about it before on the show. But. Day than ever. It wasn't looking at purely those with lived experience of disabilities perspective, but it was looking at other people that had never been on a first date before, or was struggling to take that first step. So yeah, I think that's a really great way to Yeah, to show that yeah,

Jason Clymo 5:20

I feel like you've, like, given me a little bit of hope about dating again. You've got such a good outlook on it

Stephanie Dower 5:25

absolutely. Yeah,

Olivia Hargroder 5:26

that's really sweet of you to say that's really inspiring to me.

Jason Clymo 5:31

Well, what I want to know from you, Olivia, is, what would be your dream role on the stage?

Olivia Hargroder 5:36

Well, I would say my dream role would definitely have to be something on the Broadway stage most definitely because I'm because I'm not just an actor and public speaker, I'm also a dancer and performer as well. And that has always been one of my long term dreams. I've always wanted to achieve being a dancer on that Broadway stage has always been my dream for the longest time, but I would say another one of my long term dreams as a dancer is definitely to go on tour with Taylor Swift one day.

Jason Clymo 6:14

That would be amazing. That

Stephanie Dower 6:16

is the ultimate dream. I

Olivia Hargroder 6:18

think that's always think my old eventually, Well, speaking

Stephanie Dower 6:23

of musicals, I was just gonna say I remember you doing a little One short day in the film sunshine that you starred in, that I produced and we did our back in Brisbane. But yeah, so we have our own wicked star here among us. Stop it. Okay. Now it's time for my favorite part of the show. Get your head in the frame. I'll be asking our panelists here multiple choice questions about pop culture and media, and I want you all to be patient now and wait for me to read out the answers before you buzz in and may the best person win,

Jason Clymo 7:01

which will be me.

Stephanie Dower 7:04

All right. Question number one, what invisible disability does Elton John live with a type one diabetes, B epilepsy, or C Crohn's disease, Olivia epilepsy? You are correct. I did not know that. Did you know that? Yeah, I did. I did not know that. There you go. Okay, well, I'm learning things today. Everyone Yes, okay. Olivia, one point. All right. Question number two, which of the following is a common stereotype used in film and TV to give to a character with a disability. A, the villain, B, the hero, C, the victim or D, all of the above. D, all of the above. You are correct. Yeah, it's on. He was not going to let anyone else boss in for that one should have got, like, a close up of, like, how close my hand was, like, trembling,

Jason Clymo 8:05

yeah, the anticipation.

Stephanie Dower 8:08

Okay, one to Olivia, one to Jason. So you're still in this don't worry. Okay. Question number three English comedian Rosie Jones was the first contestant with cerebral palsy to appear on which celebrity game show? A taskmaster B, the great British baking show, or C, Ru Paul's drag race?

Zoe Simmons 8:30

I have no idea. Oh, my God. B,

Stephanie Dower 8:35

just guessing you are unfortunately, no,

Jason Clymo 8:39

Jason, task master, you are correct.

Olivia Hargroder 8:41

I was going to say that

Jason Clymo 8:44

I love that you buzz Zoe, and then you're like, oh.

Stephanie Dower 8:48

So I was thinking, like, it's not ru falls, because you would have known that. Like,

Zoe Simmons 8:51

oh, it'd be really awkward.

Stephanie Dower 8:55

Okay, this is it, guys, the last the last question, Jason, last melon. Jason is ahead. I'm sorry to say, Olivia, you're still in this Zoe, you can redeem yourself. Okay? Question number four, comedian, writer and patron of multiple sclerosis Australia, Tim Ferguson is a former member of which Australian comedy group, a tripod, B los trios, ring Barkers or C, the Doug. Anthony, all stars. Friend Olivia. C,

Jason Clymo 9:28

you are correct. Yes, well done.

Stephanie Dower 9:31

I'm sad that no one else knew

Jason Clymo 9:32

that. Like, what was that? A guess? Yes.

Stephanie Dower 9:37

All right. Well, we have a tie at the desk today, but that was fun. Thanks so much for playing, and you get to share the satisfaction of being the most knowledgeable at the desk.

Jason Clymo 9:48

Now it's time for show and talk. So both of our wonderful guests have brought a piece of media along for us to watch that showcases disability. So Zoe, what piece of media did you choose

Zoe Simmons 9:58

rather go. Questionable clip from Ru Paul's drag race starring Evie oddly, who is a disabled drag queen who's very cool, but did not have very good experiences on the show,

Jason Clymo 10:11

right? Gossip, I'm excited. Let's take a look.

Speaker 1 10:15

Okay, now, as you do this, you're starting to go down here and then sit.

Speaker 2 10:23

Okay, by the sound of it, I can already tell that's not it. I'm just a

Speaker 3 10:27

little worried about hitting my knees, because they come out of place a lot. What do you mean? They come out of place? They just pop out. Yeah, it's a part of my disease. I got, girl, all of my shit pops out.

Speaker 2 10:36

What is it that you have? What's your issue? I have a connective

Speaker 3 10:39

tissue disorder where all of my joints are while they're flexible, all of it pops out of place if I hit the ground too hard. So I'm gonna try and be soft,

Speaker 2 10:48

of course. Yeah, thank you for telling me. And yeah, you should always be careful with your body. I

Speaker 3 10:52

have a disease called Ehlers Danlos Syndrome, type three. I don't produce a whole lot of collagen, so I have extra skin, like everywhere, and I'm prone to dislocating my knees and things like that, but it's not gonna hold me back in this competition.

Jason Clymo 11:10

Amazing. So Zoe, just talk us through why you chose this piece of media and what kind of happened around it.

Zoe Simmons 11:17

It was really hard to choose because there were so many moments because Evie was on season 11 and All Stars season seven. And through both things, her disabilities have gotten worse. Reading articles she has she was in so much pain. And you can imagine, if you, you know, dislocate, and you're throwing yourself on the floor, and Evie is dancing, is just absolutely wild, like she bends over backwards and does these amazing things with her potty that she can do because of EDs, but also really, really hurts her. And there's a clip just after that that she injures herself in that dance and ends up using a walking stick on stage and has to sit on a stool that's only given to her once, despite how much agony she's often in. And it just really frustrates me that there are very simple fixes we could do to make things more accessible, and we don't, and people are praised and forced to push through. And that happens with a lot of the queens. There was also, I can't remember what season, but Willow pill was another disabled queen that won, and she also spoke of the same things. And there were some clips of her really struggling to, like, open up boxes that were part of challenges and like in so much pain that she couldn't do it and one of her friends actually had to come open it, like, Why could she have not been handed a box cutter when it obviously is hurting her, obviously struggling? Why can we not make small adjustments that make it so much more accessible and inclusive, especially for a show that talks about how important being yourself, loving yourself and being diverse is, I don't know, like it'd be so good for representation, but we just, they just have such poor experiences, which is so disheartening.

Stephanie Dower 12:47

That's my thing. I think when you see shows and spaces that preach, you know, loving yourself, being yourself, accepting yourself, but they don't sort of showcase a wide array of experiences, or, you know, yeah, perspectives. I think they're missing a huge chunk of what they're what they're preaching, Yeah, unfortunately, so yeah. I mean, she, Evie, did very well. She won that season, yeah, which is incredible, yeah. Again, like the fact that she had to push through and work through all of that with very little help. It sounds like that's pretty impressive.

Zoe Simmons 13:28

It is great to see disabled Queens flourishing, but it shouldn't be the responsibility of them or other contestants to support them when simple adjustments could make a huge difference. For example, there was a challenge ages ago, and all the Queens dressed up as mermaids, and they had to be in wheelchairs. And that was so beautiful, because obviously they couldn't, you know, walk, so they're on wheelchairs. And if we can do it for art, why can't we do it for access, it's just, it's just wild, especially when you have guests that come on that are in pain, and they're talking about how much pain they are wearing heels, and, you know, none of it. You just expect it to fit in these non disabled boxes. And that is so harmful, especially when, like, ru and Michelle talk about how, Oh, you didn't let it hold you back. That's so good. It's like, hmm.

Stephanie Dower 14:12

And this is also, I know from my own work, yeah, people are afraid to ask for what they need and talk about it. And you know, you just, you just want to blend in. You don't want to be difficult to work with or anything like that. But you shouldn't feel like that's being difficult to work with by simply saying, hey, I need to take a break every now and again. Or hey, I need to, like, not throw my body onto the floor because I might pop a joint or something.

Jason Clymo 14:42

And I think, like representing that well on screen has, like a massive, massive impact on how people with disability would be feeling in their everyday lives when they do ask for things that they need as well. So like, I know, even you know, just in, like, my day job, sometimes. I'm like, Oh, am I being annoying for asking for this? Like, thankfully, I work for an organization that's really great, but not everyone has that.

Stephanie Dower 15:06

No, we're still, yeah, we still don't know what is, I guess, a safe space to share that information and what is, you know, not a safe space. Yeah, it's often

Zoe Simmons 15:17

not, like many of the Queens said that they didn't feel comfortable disclosing it, because they didn't want to be judged and like, how sad is that? And just even mentioned the word disability and chronic illness with a show with such a big platform is so huge, especially because invisible disabilities are so often dismissed. And we live in a world where so many people have conditions like MECFS, long COVID, you know, so many other invisible conditions. And why don't we make it more accessible? There are disabled drag queens. Why can we not make adjustments to make it easier and have that representation? Because that would be so powerful. It's already so powerful seeing, you know, trans people win. And why can't we, why can't we do better with disability? Ru Paul, yeah, I don't know which camera to look into. Say, RuPaul.

Stephanie Dower 16:00

Ru Paul, Michelle, I hope you'll show all of them you're

Zoe Simmons 16:02

watching this. Obviously,

Stephanie Dower 16:04

we might switch gears a little bit now. And Olivia, do you want to share what piece of media you've bought to talk about?

Olivia Hargroder 16:10

I would absolutely love to. So I brought in an episode of love on the spectrum, and I felt very connected to it, because when I went on better date than never, I so when I first went on to better date than never, I actually like like before that I was watching an episode of love on the spectrum, and I saw this beautiful girl with Down syndrome go on a date with an incredible guy with autism, and I and just seeing that on screen, I absolutely loved and I got super inspired by them both. Ronan and Katie has always been a huge inspiration to me, and that's what made me reach out to the to the producers who were was working on that show. I emailed them and asked, asked them if there was filming, if they're filming something like this again, can you please keep me in mind? And they did it, and I was on series one of better debt than never. So that's kind of how better debt than never started in the first place.

Stephanie Dower 17:37

Amazing. Well, let's take a quick look at love on the spectrum,

Speaker 4 17:43

Ronan is meeting Katie. Katie likes twirling around until dizzy and the touch of mum's hand on her face. She doesn't like the sound of gunshots in movies or the feeling of something crawling on her skin.

Speaker 5 18:02

I Ronan,

Speaker 6 18:04

Hey, Katie. I'm Ronan. This for you. Thank you pretty.

Speaker 5 18:12

That's very nice. Hi, Ronan. I'm Katie's Mom. Lovely to see you. Pleasure to meet you. All right, see you. Have fun. Bye, bye.

Speaker 6 18:23

You excited? Yes, I'm back. Glad you are sorry. How's your day going? Good? Thank you. I've got a perfect spot for us. Okay, great. It's somewhere up in this section that's so pretty, where you can see the sea and the and the boats, lovely.

Speaker 6 18:58

So one for you, and one for me. A big cheers to us for our romantic picnic.

Speaker 6 19:19

How is it good? Yeah. Scenery looks beautiful, yeah, and stunning as well.

Stephanie Dower 19:30

Love on the spectrum. It's taken the world by storm. How do you feel about the way, you know, they portray disability in the series. Do you think it's they've done a good job of it, or, most

Olivia Hargroder 19:44

definitely, it always makes me just a little tiny bit emotional, just because the debt, the date that they had, was just beautiful. And one of the and also one of the other things that. I feel really connected to is that I'm actually really good friends with Ronan. We have so we met through Bus Stop Films and stellar experiences, and he's always been a really good friend. I've seen him going on with Katie just inspires me even more

Stephanie Dower 20:21

nice, gives us all that hope that we might have a nice experience like that one day. Yeah, 100% have you watched a lot of love on the spot? I haven't

Jason Clymo 20:33

watched a lot. I think I watched a lot of the first season, and then I've obviously watched this episode as well recently. So, yeah, I think they do a great job. Like, I think the thing is, with like, documentary style shows that

Stephanie Dower 20:51

what it's called, yeah, it's a reality. It's an off doc, like, I

Jason Clymo 20:56

don't want to call it a reality show, because not a reality show, it's not,

Stephanie Dower 21:01

I mean, it's more of a reality show than what reality is, but, yeah, exactly.

Jason Clymo 21:07

So meta. But I feel like it's real life. It's like it's unless they are producing, you know, really messed up situations, like they do on like love Island or something. I think there's, it's hard for them to actually get it wrong when it's really just letting people be themselves. I think there's cameras

Stephanie Dower 21:29

there. I think that's it. I think what I love about the show, I think it's just, you can see that the camera is very removed from the situation. What was your like experience on better date than ever, because it was the same producers, right? Yeah, yeah. And did you feel like you got to, I guess you got to sort of share your authentic self. You got to share your story. And, yeah, oh

Olivia Hargroder 21:55

yes, most definitely. I definitely expressed my authentic self on better date than ever. I really did. It's just amazing feeling and all and also with, like, with love on the with love on the spectrum, and better debt than never. I wouldn't say they're completely different. I would say they're a little bit different because love on the spectrum is fault, is following people on the autism spectrum, finding their love stories and finding that connection, but with better debt than never. It's kind of the same thing, but except there are, except they are open to everyone and that's what I absolutely love. They, they, they follow them to make their own love stories as well. And it's just incredible seeing these two shows. It's just amazing. Yeah, I cannot express how much um, Benedictine never inspired me to be my authentic self, and I absolutely love exploring that, and with loving the spectrum, it also really inspires

Jason Clymo 23:20

me. I hope you don't mind me asking, but I know a lot of people will make assumptions about people with disability. I'm just wondering, since you've been on the show and you've been dating more, did people make a lot of assumptions about you and who you would date?

Olivia Hargroder 23:37

I would say so definitely, because people always told me that they would make the assumption that I would only be able to go and date someone with the same disability that I have. But I I didn't. I didn't want that. I wanted to expand my search and look for other people, and I, and I did, and it widened the space for me to explore everyone out there who I who I can go on a date with. And I think people should most definitely be open for people with Down syndromes, definitely not on a date with everyone, because I know I've said this before, but we're just people just like you that should be allowed to date everyone

Stephanie Dower 24:36

absolutely again, preach, I mean, now before we wrap up, we'd love to give you at home some speedy suggestions. So now we're going to go around to each of the panelists, and they're going to recommend something in the media or in their day to day lives, or maybe an app or a book or whatever it may be. I. Um, that represents disability in hopefully, I would say a positive lens. So Olivia, can we start with you? What's your speedy suggestion? My

Olivia Hargroder 25:07

speedy suggestion is definitely the assembly on ABC. It's about people on the autism spectrum who wants to be a journalist, who gets mentored by the most incredible, incredible Lee sales. And fun fact, my friend Jackson on the show now has a job as a cadet reporter with The ABC.

Stephanie Dower 25:38

I love that. Real outcomes. I love this. Thank you for that. Olivia Zoe, a speedy suggestion. Well,

Zoe Simmons 25:46

very timely that last week I went to Bus Stop Films driving at Change Conference, and I watched a special screening of Hannah divine, latest movie, which is called Audrey, which I hear you worked on. Steph, I didn't know that.

Stephanie Dower 26:01

I did do some behind the scenes on Audrey. Yes.

Zoe Simmons 26:03

I just love the humor in it, though, the sass and like, showing people today we would not be able to get in the door. It's just like, oh so relatable. And just all the horrible things people say. It's just like, Hmm, 100%

Stephanie Dower 26:15

No, I love that. Yeah. Highly recommend seeing Audrey. All right. Jason, yours

Jason Clymo 26:20

awesome. So my speedy suggestion is only murders in the building, which I think you might have actually recommended in our one of our previous episodes. So I've taken your recommendation. I started watching the show, and now I'm recommending it to everyone else. It's so good. Have you watched the Deaf episode? No, I'm not up to him. It'll be even better. Yeah, that's a good episode. Yeah, yeah. Okay, mine's gonna be a little bit different. I'm gonna make a speedy suggestion about how to keep your we talked about air travel on the show with Zoe

Stephanie Dower 26:53

and I myself, have done a lot of air travel with my motorized wheelchair, and I'm gonna make the speedy suggestion of how to keep that safe when you are traveling. So when I go to the airport, I take my chair to the gate, and I basically take off anything on my chair that can be possibly, like, ripped off, or, you know, fallen off. Perhaps I bubble wrap everything. I put plastic bags over things. I use tape to tape it all up because, be damned, I'm going to get my chair to the other end of my journey in one piece and in working order. Now, I still have a lot of trepidation, but for me, that's how I mitigate as much risk as I possibly can, and I just want to share that with other, particularly wheelchair users, because, yes, as we've talked about today, it's a scary thing not knowing if your your legs essentially, are going to be working at the other end and allow you to go about your journey. So yeah, my speedy suggestion,

Jason Clymo 28:00

that's great. I think people find that really useful. I hope so. Finally, they treated us with respect,

Stephanie Dower 28:05

if only that's the next step. Finally, I didn't have to tape everything up and travel with tools. Yes, yeah. Anyway, all right. Well, thank you both for being here. We've loved having you on the show today, before we go, do you want to just tell us where our audience can find more about you. Maybe Zoe, we'll start with you.

Zoe Simmons 28:24

I guess you could Google. Zoe Simmons, I've written a lot of articles. I have a website which is just www, dot Zoe simmons.com.edu, I'm also on most platforms because I have massive FOMO. I'm usually at something beginning with Zed or it begins with Zed, but Insta tick tock is just something getting said.

Stephanie Dower 28:43

Amazing. Okay, Olivia, so

Olivia Hargroder 28:46

of course, you can find me on better date than never on everything I view

Speaker 7 28:51

little plug there,

Olivia Hargroder 28:54

but also I have a lead role in boss cop films. First ever feature film called Bluth cat. You can also look for me online as well, on Google. On Google, I have a web website, Olivia hardware.com,

Stephanie Dower 29:13

very exciting. Lots coming up for you All right. Well, that's it for us today. On reframe, thank you for joining us, and thank you, Jason, thank you, Steph, thank you for coming Yes and we will see you all next time