Reframed - Carly Findlay and Jacob Darkin

Jason Clymo 0:06

Foreign Welcome to reframe the panel show that analyzes all things disability in media.

Jason Clymo 0:17

I'm Jason hymo

Stephanie Dower 0:18

and I'm Stephanie della and Let's meet today's very special guests. First up, we have Carly Finlay OAM, who is an award winning writer, speaker and appearance activist in 2020 Carly received a medal of the Order of Australia the OAM for her work as a disability advocate and activist. Welcome Carly.

Carly Findlay 0:37

Hello. Thank you.

Jason Clymo 0:39

Also with us today is Jacob darken, who is an inclusion advocate, entrepreneur and speaker. Jacob is the founder of at to me, a tech platform making it easier for people to access assistive technology, and the co founder of GTAs, a consultancy for navigating the healthcare sector. He's a passionate wheelchair rugby player and an aspiring pilot with wheelies and wings. Welcome,

Stephanie Dower 1:04

Wow, very impressive. Bio, exciting to talk to you both. Thank you. All right. Well, we're just gonna ask you both a couple of questions just to learn a bit more about you and what you do in your lives. So Carly, we might start with you. You edited an anthology book that I feel like is quite well known now. Growing up disabled in Australia, yeah, did you find that when you were reviewing the submissions for it that there were any like common themes across people's stories?

Carly Findlay 1:31

Yeah, that lots of people didn't know they were disabled until they met other disabled people. That was a really common theme. And the other common theme was the low expectations that people often try to defy. And in the green room before we were just talking about the way we overcompensate for that and the way we really pick up the work and don't stop. So I think that is, yeah, sounds familiar, yeah,

Jason Clymo 1:58

it'll relate to that a little bit, yeah, yeah. Brilliant. Well, my question for you, Carly, is that you obviously juggle so many different endeavors while also uplifting disabled voices. So what's one creative thing you do just for yourself? I

Carly Findlay 2:13

really like cooking. So yeah, cooking is really fun, and I like to just, you know, cook one sort of good meal once a week, and then have it for leftovers, and then maybe one or two throughout the week. I got to cook on SBS as the cook up a few years ago, which was really fun. So that was, yeah, I got, I did four episodes, and it was a very long day of filming. We, I think I ate 13 meals, because we actually get to eat the food that you cook. And it was, yeah, it was an incredibly long day, maybe a 13 hour day, where we did four episodes, and

Jason Clymo 2:50

it was fun, amazing. Should we be expecting a cookbook anytime soon? I'd

Carly Findlay 2:55

like that. Yeah, that'd be fun. Not yet, though.

Stephanie Dower 2:59

We'll keep an eye out for that. Yeah, thank you. Carly Jacob, we might spin to you now. You're someone who's only more recently acquired the disability. How is that journey, I guess, for someone who has acquired a disability later in life, I think a lot of the community is has gone through that. Can you sort of share that journey a little bit the early stages? And you know, did it help finding authentic stories out there to help with that presence?

Jacob Darkin 3:28

Yeah, thanks, Stephanie. It's a pleasure to be here, by the way. Thank you for having me so I get to see things from different perspectives. Before my injury, I really seen life as an able bodied person, and I felt very invincible working in construction, and then one day I had a spinal cord injury, and it was a really long path of self discovery and also to be able to accept help from others. I heard a lot of people neglected. I heard a lot of people experiencing pain without them being able to share that too. And sometimes pain is inside the mind, and sometimes it's physical pain, realizing that it's very subjective, right? And I liked so much about that since having a spinal cord injury, I've discovered that I have ADHD, and it was left undiagnosed and untreated my whole life, and it was coming across a psychiatrist, peer reviewed medical journal saying, living with a spine, living with ADHD, untreated and undiagnosed, can lead to 13 years less than someone that's neuro typical because of risk taking behaviors. And my psychologist just said, after hearing my story, I'm going to link this spinal cord injury to ADHD. So I'm just an advocate for that so and to also normalize for men to get help and and when I was working construction that was unheard of, to go get help, mental health help and like rub his. Take on on a scratch, you know, like, if you didn't bleed, you didn't work, type of thing in contraction. And I think that's really quite toxic as well, because I think a lot of people do want to get help. And since then, I've lived some of the best of my life, because I've just unmasked and just truly been authentic to myself and do the things that I love to do and not be afraid of, like expressing my love to those things.

Stephanie Dower 5:24

Absolutely, it's such a freeing experience I can imagine.

Jason Clymo 5:27

Brilliant, yeah, sounds like a very important journey has underway.

Carly Findlay 5:32

You know, where to find the authentic stories to growing up disabled in Australia? Yeah, nice little

Jason Clymo 5:38

time. Well, Jacob, i My question for you is, a lot of your work is in the field of technology and how that can work for people with disabilities. What's something exciting that you've seen in that space recently? Absolutely.

Jacob Darkin 5:54

Jason, well, I'm really excited for people to be able to that particularly don't want to express with words that either they don't feel comfortable or they don't have the capacity to communicate with their words to share with instead of like the Microsoft voice over, like the monotonic, to be able to share the love and the pain and the expression. So I could imagine people living with dysphagia, like when I answer, when I call up a call center, I want to talk. I can't wait for the day when I'm talking to someone that doesn't communicate with their mouth, but with technology, and that's someone that didn't have a job before. Now, because technology is moving this way, it's enabling so many people. And for me, talking to someone that can communicate with technology, but also for me, I know that now they can also express pain and like joy and anger and all the other emotions that we have the capacity to express and build relationships and express themselves in ways. And I'm really excited for

Stephanie Dower 6:56

that. Absolutely technology, it opens up doors, doesn't it?

Carly Findlay 7:00

I saw that Facebook video recently where that man chose the way his voice was going to sound. Did you have you seen that he really wanted a specific accent, and he wanted to sound a bit like his dad, and he wasn't happy with the way the, you know, monotone sounds on you know, the iPad or iPhone sounded and so he got two people who he thought he liked the sound of, and they molded it together, and he has this new voice now.

Jacob Darkin 7:26

Wow, that's so special. Yeah, I love it.

Jason Clymo 7:29

Yeah? Like, when technology can give people more agency over who they are and who they how they express themselves? Yeah, it's always going to be a win. It's a brilliant, brilliant thing. 100%

Stephanie Dower 7:39

Yeah. Well, thank you both for being here. Lovely to have you on the show. And now we're going to get into everyone's favorite segment. Get your head in the frame.

Jason Clymo 7:48

Now it's time to test your pop culture knowledge with Get your head in the frame. I'll be asking our panel members multiple choice questions about disability in the media. Let's get into it. I'm ready. We ready. I'm ready. What I want you guys to do is, once I read out the question, I'm going to give you three options for what the correct answer could be. Try and let me get the three options out before you. Buzz, doesn't always happen. Doesn't always happen. People get a bit

Carly Findlay 8:13

I was already

Jason Clymo 8:17

happy. Yeah. Anyway, question one, love on the spectrum. Alumni, Michael appeared in the sitcom Austin, which was filmed partly in England, and which Australian city? A, Canberra, B, Melbourne or C, Sydney. Oh, Carly, that was quick. Canberra,

Stephanie Dower 8:39

correct. Well done. I still need to watch it.

Jason Clymo 8:45

That's the energy we want. Okay, great, that's competitive energy, yeah, honestly, like, I'm like this the whole time. Okay, question two, the ABC series headliners, features three Australian musicians putting together two bands that include all musicians with disabilities. The musicians include Tim Rogers from you and I, Ella Hooper from killing Heidi and which other musician and activist a Troy savan B Ali Mae Barnes we'll see guy, Sebastian, Jacob, Ellie. May Barnes, correct. Well done.

Stephanie Dower 9:30

So good. I need to play catch up here, honestly. So little point. Check zero for Steph. Really had to nail that point. Yeah. Thank you. Appreciate that. Just pointing it

Jason Clymo 9:41

out. One for Jacob, one for Carly. It's getting competitive. All right. Question three, English actress and disability activist Liz Carr played Clarissa Mullery in which long running BBC crime drama A, the bill B, rosemary in time. What? C, Silent Witness, Carly. C, Silent Witness, correct. Oh, man, well done. She's also a friend. Has someone read the question? All right? Carly's on two, Jacob's on one? I

Stephanie Dower 10:20

know, I know, don't need to tell me. It's fine. It's fine.

Jason Clymo 10:24

I'll try really hard. Fourth and final question, this will be the decider. English actor and cerebral palsy advocate Zach Ford Williams appeared in which period drama phenomenon, a, Pride and Prejudice, B, bridgerton or C, the Queen's gambit.

Stephanie Dower 10:47

Steph, I don't know, but the Queen's gambit

Jason Clymo 10:50

incorrect, damn it. Carly bridgerton, correct,

Carly Findlay 10:55

because you called it a phenomenon. I think the other two, yeah. And

Stephanie Dower 10:59

also Adam prejudice, which version? There are too many versions?

Jason Clymo 11:05

Well, good effort from everyone, sort of Yeah. Congratulations to Carly. You are. Congrats. A big round of applause.

Stephanie Dower 11:19

All right. Well, now it's time for show and talk. Both of our guests have brought a piece of media along for us to watch and discuss. Each clip includes disability representation in some form or another, whether it's good or bad, we'll find out. Carly, we're actually going to start with you. What film have you brought to discuss today? I

Carly Findlay 11:40

brought the other sister, which is a 1999 film so very old, 25 years old. So it is about a young woman called Carla Tate, and she has been at a special school. Maybe that gives away the type of film it is, and her mum is quite embarrassed to be with her, to have her around. Her dad is quite encouraging. And Carla was a bit of a rebel at the special school. She was doing some up to monkey tricks, as my dad would say, and she has seen what independence looks like, and she wants to be more independent, but her mum is holding her back, and her dad's kind of pushing her. She meets Danny, who is also disabled. She goes to a technical college, and she meets Danny, where they do computer 101, and then Danny and Carla's relationship thrives. The trouble is, Carla Danny are played by Juliette Lewis and Giovanni Ribisi, who are both non disabled, so they're emulating disability, both in like speech and

Stephanie Dower 13:01

motion. Well, let's have a look at the clip and see what our audience thinks.

Speaker 1 13:08

Come on. Daniel, okay, she said it was downstairs monsters.

Speaker 2 13:27

I passed it. Daniel, I passed my subject in a regular school with real tests and regular teachers. I did it. Daniel, I love Polytechnic School. I love my teachers. I love everybody. Daniel, I

Speaker 3 14:03

But, but, Daniel, you didn't fail by much justice smidge. I

Speaker 4 14:11

wanted to get out of one class just because I passed, not because I was I because I passed, not because I was not because I was too old.

Speaker 1 14:27

It's okay. Daniel, don't be upset. No, no. It isn't okay. It isn't everybody's right. Everybody's right. Carla, I'm dumb. Everybody's right. Carla, everybody, can you go? Everything, please.

Stephanie Dower 14:59

Okay? I I didn't know this film existed until you shared it, and I kind of say it was a bit of a struggle to watch. So unfortunately, yeah, when did you first discover the film?

Carly Findlay 15:14

In 1999 Okay, so when I was quite young, and I didn't know about disability rights and representation very well. When I was watching it this time around, there were many examples of ableism. And so that is good, I guess. But the way it's performed, where they're creeping up, is really bad, yeah. And also the language, I think they only mentioned disability once, like the word disability once. This all euphemisms, including the R word, which is really problematic actually,

Jason Clymo 15:46

in like, the first, like, few minutes of the movie. And I was like, Okay, this is where we're going.

Stephanie Dower 15:53

I can imagine in 99 This was probably quite like, I don't know if groundbreaking is the right word, but like, at the time, it probably would have been considered really good representation, unfortunately. But yeah, like, we know Juliet Lewis and Giovanni Ruby see how they usually are acting, and it just felt so icky. It was the only word I could think of. When I was watching this, I was just like, I'm so uncomfortable right now. And just, I think if they had authentic representation or authentic casting in this film, it could have been, I mean, the story would have changed a little bit, but I think it could have been so powerful, but because there was no authenticity, it just lost all meaning.

Carly Findlay 16:35

Yeah, there were some really good parts where there was assertion from Carla, and I want to read out a little line here. She says, I would like to explore my options now mother, as her mother urges her to have a holiday rather than do further study. And so when her mother says no, Carla says, Excuse me. I have to go feed my fish.

Stephanie Dower 17:03

So there was some really. I actually, really loved Carla as a character. Yeah, I thought she was so strong, like, such a good she had did self advocacy so well. I just wish that it came from an authentic place.

Carly Findlay 17:15

Do you think if it was made now, like if they made a remake with actually disabled people, it would be quite a I actually think I

Jason Clymo 17:21

would really have a really good score plot, because I'm like, there's really, there's some really good elements in there. There is like, there's like, the romanticism and sexuality being explored by disabled people, which is something that we very rarely get. And then there is that, like, sort of growing independence and pushing back on kind of, you know, a parent that doesn't really believe in you or support you. And I think that they're really, really important topics to explore. It is also really interesting. Way they did it,

Stephanie Dower 17:52

yeah, it is also interesting because, like, the mother, like, car was one of three sisters, and like, there was other stuff going on in the sisters, the other siblings lives as well, that the mother was, like, ashamed of and, you know, pushing to the side as well. I think one was in a same sex relationship, and I don't know what the other one was doing work, something like that. But Yeah, unfortunately, the mother is just a bit uptight for my liking. Yes, and brought her daughters down. That was, um, yeah, but thank you for bringing it to our attention. I mean, I got really excited when I read the plot, and I was like, Yes, this is going to be great. And then I started watching, like, oh, okay,

Carly Findlay 18:33

maybe we could get some funding to remake

Jason Clymo 18:35

it. Let's do it. Yeah.

Stephanie Dower 18:37

Screen Australia, I hope you're watching, yes, all right. Well, thank you so much, Jacob, we might turn to you now. Sure. What have you brought to discuss today?

Jacob Darkin 18:48

So today I was thinking about, what do I bring? And I want to be a little bit different, and so I brought Beauty and the Beast.

Jason Clymo 18:55

Oh, okay, great. What a classic.

Speaker 5 19:01

Once upon a time, in a far away land, a young prince lived in a shining castle. Although he had everything his heart desired, the prince was spoiled, selfish and unkind. But then one winter's night, an old beggar woman came to the castle and offered him a single rose in return for shelter from the bitter cold. Repulsed by her haggard appearance, the prince sneered at the gift and turned the old woman away, but she warned him not to be deceived by appearances, for beauty is found within and when he dismissed her again, the old woman's ugliness melted away to reveal a beautiful Enchantress. The prince tried to apologize, but it was too late, for she had seen that there was no love in his heart and his punishment. It, she transformed him into a hideous beast and placed a powerful spell on the castle and all who lived there ashamed of his monstrous form, the beast concealed himself inside his castle with a magic mirror as his only window to the outside world. The Rose she had offered was truly an enchanted rose, which would bloom until his 21st year, if he could learn to love another and earn her love in return. By the time the last petal fell, then the spell would be broken. If not, he would be doomed to remain a beast for all time.

Stephanie Dower 20:48

Okay, I have to preface, this was probably my favorite Disney film growing up. So I know it's funny, it's it's not until you become an adult that the discourse around this really becomes apparent. And I think maybe I watched it with like, rose colored glasses when I was younger, but I never equated disability with turning into a beast, so maybe I came at it a bit more innocently, like it, we're putting that onto it, but that's that's just me. So Jacob, what are your thoughts on the film? Like, what did you want to discuss today?

Jacob Darkin 21:23

Yeah, I think that this is a film that a lot of people have watched, including myself, and I even did the musical in high school and drama. And when I watched this film, like I loved it, and then I watched it in theater after my injury, and I just didn't know what it was that just didn't feel genuine. So the Enchantress, she, she says, like, Look, can I just get help in exchange for a rose? And, you know, the story is no go away, and the beauty is on the inside, but then she's beautiful on the outside. So what is that about? Yeah, so, like, it's, it seems a little bit fake this whole time so, and then that's the whole plot, and then for the beast to transform into a beautiful person. Again, all the people around are pressuring Belle, which, which she was held captive. And so for me, why I wanted to talk about this is because I experienced Body Dysmorphia after I had a spinal cord injury, because going through the gym and everything like that prior to my injury, talking to a psychologist, and the psychologist said, Jacob, you only have one body. So like, like, you gotta love it no matter what, because you can't do anything about that, and I had nerve transfers and things like that. And that's something that I took away from, from the psychology and then watching Beauty and the Beast again live, I just felt like we're teaching children and people a very interesting story and narrative that we love with good music and really great theater and great costumes. But what is that teaching society?

Stephanie Dower 23:06

Yeah, Jason, what about you? Especially the old classic, yeah, exactly.

Jason Clymo 23:11

No, I get exactly what you mean. I think especially when you like, acquire disability. So I acquired my spinal cord injury when I was 19, I feel like I still have days now, it's been 10 years where I have a disconnect in my mind from my body because of body dysmorphia. And yeah, I've never actually looked at Beauty and the Beast, probably from that lens before that you've just explained, and I'm like, feel like clicking in, like, my mind at the moment where I'm like, wow, that is, like, really perpetuating, on like a very subconscious level, some really harmful tropes

Stephanie Dower 23:53

I also using, well, again, like you know, does the beast you know, is that classified as disability or not? I'm not sure, but like, using that transformation as a punishment, yeah, it's like, oh, like,

Jason Clymo 24:05

Why does kind of, like, really, like, slots quite closely into that. Like, this

Stephanie Dower 24:10

is the worst thing that could possibly happen. Like this is beware, you know, then also it's curable, yeah, with a Yeah, exactly.

Carly Findlay 24:18

So one thing that often happens with facial differences, which is depicted here. And as someone with a facial difference, we're often portrayed as evil and the villain. And so there were two facial differences in that clip, the woman at the start, and then the beast. And you know, both of them were shamed. And I think that that introducing that idea so young into children's lives, especially, is really damaging, not Beauty and the Beast, but I had some dolls that were fairy tales when I was a kid, and they were Snow White, and the wicked stepmother was depicted as similar to the haggard lady on beauty and the. East, and I was actually scared of her, and it was only a doll, like it was a plastic doll, like a Barbie. And I thought, you know, that that's how young we're entrenched,

Stephanie Dower 25:08

yeah, yeah. We're teaching this fear. We're teaching this, you know, to see those people as, you know, evil, yeah. And

Jason Clymo 25:16

again, it's like the Well, for starters, it's like this difference is bad, but then it's like bad things happen to bad people. And it does perpetuate that trope that, you know, almost comes from kind of, like, really, like overzealous religious principles of you know, bad things will happen to bad people, and there's some people that do believe that way about people with disability and or the opposite of, if we pray it'll go away,

Stephanie Dower 25:49

we'll fix you. Don't worry.

Jason Clymo 25:52

I'm sure we've all experienced something similar

Jacob Darkin 25:54

to that. I just wanted to bring up a conversation. It's food for thought. And, you know, I'm a father, and I've got a daughter. She's seven, Chelsea, and I just want to make sure that like, when she grows up, and the people that she hangs around like they just love and don't think about these things, they shouldn't be, like judging and judge free. And I think just like caring for each other,

Stephanie Dower 26:15

that's why I'm so excited when I see kids content, whether it's on screen or in, you know, toys and things like that, where they're showing all different experiences, you know, wheelchair users, other people with disabilities, facial differences, you know. And it's just part of their growing up. And so hopefully, when they go, you know, out in society where they're adults, they're not shocked by anything. It's just part of life, which is what we all want.

Jason Clymo 26:39

Bluey for the win. Usually Awesome. Well, thank you so much for bringing in those clips today. We've had some really great conversations, and really appreciate your time and engaging in this awesome conversation around representation. So before we wrap up, we'd love to give you all at home some speedy suggestions. So we're going to go around the table, and each recommend something in the media that represents disability in a positive way, or it could be a great book that represents disability, or just a handy tip about life, anything you want to share with the audience, yeah, anything you really want to share that's helpful. So well start with you. Carly, if you've got a speedy suggestion for us,

Carly Findlay 27:22

sure, I just read Darren Hayes book, unlovable, and it was a story of his struggles through a traumatic childhood. And he talks a lot about mental illness in the book,

Jason Clymo 27:34

brilliant. I'll have to add that to my

Stephanie Dower 27:37

Savage Garden. Yes.

Jacob Darkin 27:39

And Jacob, yeah, I've read the book stronger by Dr Dinesh play partner, and I think that there's so many there's so much wisdom in there to learn about. I think that because I've got a spinal cord injury myself, and I can see a lot of similarities, but I can learn a lot from from him. So highly recommend that book.

Stephanie Dower 27:59

We're big fans of Dinesh on the show he was on our last season. So yeah, 100% check out his book,

Jason Clymo 28:05

absolute legend. Well, my recommendation is avatar, The Last Airbender. Absolutely obsessed with it. There's some probably, like, really interesting, different types of minority representations throughout it, but disability is in there. And I personally think that most of the time they get it pretty

Stephanie Dower 28:26

right. Well, my final suggestion for the day is a short film called threshold by filmmaker and activist Sophia Golan, who I thankfully know in real life. I saw it just the other day, and it was such a beautiful expression of her experience as a deaf person, and her experience with cochlear implant implants and the culture around that. And it was a great mix of or use of animation and real life action. And yeah, just a beautiful film. So hopefully people will be able to check it out online somewhere.

Jason Clymo 29:04

Yeah, brilliant, awesome.

Stephanie Dower 29:07

All right. Well, thank you to both of our guests, Carly and Jacob, for being here today. Where can people find out more about you? We'll start with you, Carly.

Carly Findlay 29:17

You can find my instagram at Carly Findlay, or my blog, Carly, findlay.com.au, I've got two books out say hello and growing up disabled in Australia.

Jason Clymo 29:28

Awesome, brilliant. And what

Jacob Darkin 29:30

about you, Jacob? I love that you can find me on LinkedIn. So Jacob Tarkin, and because I just want more people with disabilities to go on the platform to make decisions as well and help with that, and also on Instagram. So Jacob, dark, darken, and please send me a message, and I'm happy to share, like any anything from my experience

Stephanie Dower 29:50

amazing. Well, thank you so much for being so generous today. Thank you, Jason as always, and thank you to everyone for watching at home, and we'll see you next time. On reframed