Reframed - Episode 4 - Alistair Baldwin, Kaed Dawber

(THEME MUSIC) 0:00

Jason Clymo 0:07

Welcome to reframed the panel show that analyses all things disability in media. (THEME MUSIC UP) I'm one of your co-hosts, Jason Clymo. I am a young queer person with disability who has dabbled in modelling, acting, and I'm also a business owner. I'm fiercely passionate about the accurate representation of people with disability on screen.

Stephanie Dower 0:31

And I'm Stephanie Dower. I'm an access coordinator, a filmmaker, and I'm a keen traveller, and I'm really excited to talk all things disability on screen today with our amazing panel of guests. So let's see who we've got on the desk with us today. First up, we have Alistair Baldwin. He is an award winning screenwriter, director, playwright and comedian based in Naam, Melbourne. His TV writing credits include The ACTA-nominated SBS series Erotic Stories - which we'll get a little taste of today - as well as ABC's The Weekly, Hard Quiz and Get Krack'n. And he made his directorial debut on the SBS Digital Original series League Comers, which I'm really excited to hear more about later as well.

Jason Clymo 1:14

We're also joined by the one for Kaed Dawber. Kaed is a third year student pursuing a Bachelor's degree in Global Studies - with a passion for advocacy and making a positive impact. Kaed has achondroplasia, a form of dwarfism that affects the growth of his limbs and body proportions. With a keen interest in sports, Kaed enjoys spending free time with his nephew and two nieces. Thanks for joining us.

Kaed Dawber 1:37

Really excited.

Stephanie Dower 1:38

Yeah, let's get into it. (MUSIC STING) Okay, now it's time for our first segment - Get Your Head in the Frame. I'm going to be asking the panel three multiple choice questions. If you want to answer, just put your hand up and say your name. First one to the post wins, right?

Jason Clymo 1:52

And if you get it wrong, you're knocked out.

Stephanie Dower 1:53

That's right, yeah, off the desk, yeah.

Alistair Baldwin 1:55

If we get our name wrong.

Stephanie Dower 1:56

If you get your name wrong...

Alistair Baldwin 1:57

I'm like, Kaed. (ALL LAUGH)

Stephanie Dower 1:55

If you get your name wrong, then I go to Kaed - so, you know, giving, you know, yeah.

Alistair Baldwin 1:57

Great. Well, from his bio, he seems much smarter than me, so I might need be deferring to him a lot.

Jason Clymo 2:07

I'm also not great, anything to do with trivia, so...

Stephanie Dower 2:11

All right, so now we're clear all the rules. We'll ask the first question. All right... now, which one of these is not one of the most popular pop culture-related hashtags used on TikTok in 2024: A, Media Minion... B, TV Show Addict... and C, Film Lover?

Jason Clymo 2:32

So like not... most popular hashtag on TikTok.

Stephanie Dower 2:34

What is not the most popular hashtag?

Alistair Baldwin 2:35

Alistair.

Stephanie Dower 2:36

Yes.

Alistair Baldwin 2:37

Media Minion sounds fake.

Stephanie Dower 2:39

You are correct. Yes. (LAUGHS)

Jason Clymo 2:42

It's like, you never know on TikTok.

Stephanie Dower 2:43

I know, I mean I'm like, I feel like it could have been, yeah.

Alistair Baldwin 2:46

Like the Minions hashtag is huge on TikTok...

Stephanie Dower 2:49

Ahh, but not Media Minions.

Alistair Baldwin 2:51

But I love the Minions, and I'm here actually to mainly talk about the Minions. (LAUGHTER)

Stephanie Dower 2:54

We should talk about the minions for sure. Yes, all right, good job. All right - one for Alistair. Okay, question number 2: How more likely is a non-disabled actor to win an Oscar for playing a disabled character in film, in comparison to a disabled actor? A, 50%... B, 89%... or C, 30%?

Jason Clymo 3:16

So more likely to win.

Stephanie Dower 3:18

Yeah, more likely to win an Oscar for playing a disabled character than someone who's actually disabled winning.

Jason Clymo 3:23

Jason.

Stephanie Dower 3:24

Yeah?

Jason Clymo 3:24

B? 89%?

Stephanie Dower 3:26

You are incorrect.

Jason Clymo 3:28

Oh... (MUTTERS)

Kaed Dawber 3:28

Kaed. A?

Stephanie Dower 3:30

Correct. 50% more likely to win an Oscar.

Alistair Baldwin 3:33

Right...

Stephanie Dower 3:34

Which... I actually thought it would have been higher. I agree. I agree.

Jason Clymo 3:38

So like, what data do we have against that?

Stephanie Dower 3:40

Yeah, you know what? Again, I'm gonna... refer to our fact checker.

Alistair Baldwin 3:43

Are you questioning the questions?

Jason Clymo 3:43

No, I'm like, there's only ever been like, two disabled actors win an Oscar in the first place...?

Stephanie Dower 3:48

I think that says a lot. Yeah, if only two have Yeah, exactly.

Jason Clymo 3:48

So like, one more wins, and then that changes dramatically. (CHUCKLES)

Stephanie Dower 3:57

All right. Question number 3: What was the working secret title of The Avengers to hide its production intel from rabid Marvel fans?

Jason Clymo 4:05

Rabid!

Alistair Baldwin 4:06

They're rabid.

Stephanie Dower 4:07

Their words, not mine. (LAUGHS) Okay... A, Best Buds... B, Group Hug... or C, Friendship Conglomerate? I love all of these titles (LAUGHS).

Alistair Baldwin 4:22

Alistair.

Stephanie Dower 4:22

Yep.

Alistair Baldwin 4:23

I mean, the word conglomerate feels very Marvel and Disney, so I want to say C?

Stephanie Dower 4:27

You are incorrect, unfortunately.

Jason Clymo 4:29

Right, Jason.

Stephanie Dower 4:29

Yep, Jason.

Jason Clymo 4:30

Is it Group Hug?

Stephanie Dower 4:31

You are correct. Group Hug. That's so lovely. That's very heartwarming. Yeah, yeah,

Alistair Baldwin 4:37

That was the secret title for this show as well.

Stephanie Dower 4:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jason Clymo 4:40

And Rabid Fans.

Alistair Baldwin 4:41

Absolutely.

Stephanie Dower 4:42

And Rabid Fans. But I feel like if you're gonna have a film called Group Hug, you might need an intimacy coordinator on set, so...

Jason Clymo 4:48

Absolutely. Thank God we've got one.

Stephanie Dower 4:51

(LAUGHS) All right. Well, that was it. That was Get Your Head in the Frame. (MUSIC STING)

Jason Clymo 4:56

Now it's time for our next segment called Show and Talk. So both of our wonderful guests today have brought in a piece of media for us to basically review how kind of... great or fucked up it is in terms of disability representation. So let's play our first clip. (MUSIC STING)

(media clip) 5:25

(VENUE NOISE) (Female:) We gotta stop meeting like this. (PAUSE) Blue, by the way. (Male:) CJ. (PAUSE) (Female:) That student doctor put his foot in it with you too? (Male:) Unfortunately. (Female:) He asked me how I piss... or, I think it was like, How do you urinate? (Male:) Well, at least knows the medical term. (Female:) It's whatever. Hospital always makes me feel like I'm just this faulty network of tubes. (Male:) Well definitely steer clear of upstairs. (Female:)What's upstairs? (Male:) Medical fetishists. (Female:) So that's why people can find me drinks tonight. (PAUSE) Did someone lure you up there? (PAUSE) (MALE:) Lured... tricked. (PAUSE) I did try to play along for a bit. (Female:) No, babe! Love yourself. 

(Male:) In my defence, the guy was hot. (PAUSE) Too hot. (PAUSE) 'Course, even the disability fetishists end up rejecting me. (Female:) Someone else's pleasure isn't worth your pain. (Male:) Dr Wilkes recycles her proverbs. (Female:) I'm pretty sure she just gets them from her astrology app. (LAUGHS) I think I'll head back in. So these medical fetishists are where? (Male:) Level one.Downstairs, inside. (PAUSE) At least those freaks have enough shame to keep out of sight. (PAUSE) (Female:) Funny... I've only ever heard that line in reference to... (PAUSE) what a novelty... being on the other side for once. (PAUSE) (MUSIC STING)

All right. I mean, Alistair, I guess we probably should mention that you were the writer of this episode, right?

Alistair Baldwin 7:44

Yes, of Bound, which was an episode of the anthology series Erotic Stories - eight different half hour tales of eroticism. So you know, if you're not turned on by my episode, there'll be something for you...

Stephanie Dower 7:59

Something for everyone.

Alistair Baldwin 8:00

But... yes.

Stephanie Dower 8:01

Nice. And so I guess... so I watched this episode the other day, and... I really enjoyed it. Obviously, like, you know, quite confronting, some of the scenes. But we like to push things to the edge, you know? Yeah.

Alistair Baldwin 8:14

Absolutely.

Stephanie Dower 8:15

And like, where did the story come from - is that... something from your own experience or... ?

Alistair Baldwin 8:20

Well, I mean, so essentially, the premise of Bound is about someone who wears leg braces, and I do wear leg braces, who... a young guy, CJ, who gets cruised by someone who turns out to have a bondage fetish - specifically medical bondage, or, as my research unveiled, it's specifically called abasiophilia, which just means you're so into all the straps and buckles of bondage that leg braces kind of fall in as a subset of that, and...

Stephanie Dower 8:50

Interesting.

Alistair Baldwin 8:51

I've never been cruised myself, but... by someone or, you know, I just am like, followed on Instagram by a lot of burner accounts... And then I'm like... I was followed on Instagram by this account that was called Crutch Guy. And at first I was like, Oh, crotch guy, like a regular pervert. But then I thought it was Crutch, not Crotch. And then I was like... and then I went to see who else this, like, blank profile was following, and it was just me and a bunch of like, Brazilian Paralympian twinks. And I was like, What is going on? But... yeah, so I think it's, like, loosely based on, you know, my experiences having leg braces and being gay and being slutty, but... (LAUGHTER) ... there's also some creative license too, so it's not a one-to-one, but...

Jason Clymo 9:43

Yeah, I think for me, being like a queer person with disability, I was, I loved how much you, I guess, of the experience you managed to fit within a short 30 minute episode. And for me, I was like, I just want, like, season upon season of this show, because it was so juicy... and also very sexy.

Alistair Baldwin 10:04

Well, thank you. I mean, for kudos, we had such a fabulous cast too, and Joel Largo, fabulous actor, there - playing CJ, the lead role... and Crystal Nguyen as well, playing Blue, as seen in that scene as well...

Stephanie Dower 10:18

I love Blue's character. She's so... she's like, the best friend that we were... like, the voice of reason, I think...

Jason Clymo 10:25

That we all need.

Stephanie Dower 10:26

Just cuts through, you know, yeah.

Alistair Baldwin 10:28

Yeah, our big sort of talking note, I think for her, she's very like, wise older sister vibe.

Stephanie Dower 10:34

Yeah.

Alistair Baldwin 10:34

And also, I think it's just a classic dynamic in the queer community of like, disaster gay guy and wise queer woman telling him to get over himself. (LAUGHTER)

Jason Clymo 10:46

Sort your shit out, babe.

Alistair Baldwin 10:48

Yeah, absolutely.

Stephanie Dower 10:49

We all need that person at some stage, I feel like, yeah, yeah.

Jason Clymo 10:52

I love it. Nice. Well, in terms of, I guess, like the plot, the... you know, obviously you were a writer... but is there anything I guess you upon reflection, would want to change in terms of the disability representation?

Alistair Baldwin 11:04

Well, I mean, it's... I think the biggest constraint that I felt was the time limit. And I think it's a challenge that all the writers on this show faced, because it's, you know, you're trying to tell a complete story and introduce a bunch of new characters in sort of half an hour - less with ad breaks - and essentially, I think I... yeah, what I would want to do if I had, like, more time, or I could do a sequel episode to it, is like... I've got a mental story that would be focused about Blue, as well, about Crystal's character. 

And so I think, you know, obviously the lived experience, you know, my lived experience as, like a gay guy who can, like... I can pass when I'm fully naked and horizontal, which is where I do my best work, of course. (LAUGHTER) But then, you know, when I'm upright and have my leg braces on, and that kind of experience is like, very singular, and so... I would love the opportunity to explore more queer disabled experiences if I had more time, I think.

Stephanie Dower 12:17

I think what I really enjoyed about the story arc, or the character arc of CJ is, you know, when we meet him, he's quite... I guess, cynical about the world around him, and, you know, just sort of ready for a fight, you know, at any moment, kind of thing - which I think, you know, that's certainly an experience, I think, you know, you just get fed up with the world sometimes. But I really like that through this experience, he kind of checks himself at the end. And, you know, understands that, Oh, okay, not everyone is going to see me in just one way. 

And you know, there are good people in the world, you know, sometimes, but... yeah, no, it's...it delves into a lot of the... yeah, the mindsets that, you know, people experience. And... yeah, it was really interesting to see how that was portrayed.

Jason Clymo 13:03

You left us with a glimmer of hope.

Stephanie Dower 13:04

Yeah!

Alistair Baldwin 13:05

Absolutely. Well, yeah, I think it was an important arc... you know, and I would say the character of CJ is sort of more closely mapped onto me from a few years back, before I've, you know, became the... you know, wise sage that you see before you on this panel (LAUGHTER) where, I think... in an ableist world, you do build up these defences and these walls, and you can sort of create this like sharp wit to always have, you know...

Stephanie Dower 13:08

An insult....

Alistair Baldwin 13:34

Ridiculous ableist people... but you know, finding true intimacy at times does mean, you know, letting the walls down a little bit, while also not judging someone for developing a defense mechanism because the world is fucked up, you know.

Stephanie Dower 13:49

Yeah, exactly right, yeah.

Jason Clymo 13:51

Absolutely. Yeah, well, I'm interested to hear your own score on the Inclusive Disability Reporting Scale.

Alistair Baldwin 13:58

Thematically, I might have to give it a 69. (LAUGHTER)

Stephanie Dower 14:00

I love that.

Alistair Baldwin 14:01

But we'll see.

Jason Clymo 14:03

We'll see what happens. But for now, let's move on to the piece of media that Cade brought in, which is probably even sexier.

Stephanie Dower 14:12

Oh yeah, yeah.

Jason Clymo 14:12

Let's check it out right now.

Bit more confronting. (MUSIC STING)

(media clip) 14:15

(Male 1:) I've got about five or six gatestarts here. Got one idea that I'm specially psyched out of my mind about - you know, it's one of those ideas where you're just like, Yes! (LAUGHTER) (Male 2:) Great... could we hear it? (Male 1:) I'll start with the cover - picture this... you got.... ah... (Male 3:) (SHARP CRY) I'm in love, I'm in love, and I don't care who knows it! (Male 2:) Not now, can you please go back to the to the pit? I'll come to visit you in a little while, okay? (Male 3:) I didn't know you had elves working here. (Male 1) Okay, you're you're hilarious, my friend. (Male 2:) He doesn't... get back to the story, please. 

(Male 1:) Ahem. So... on the cover above the title... (Male 3:) Does Santa know that you left the workshop? (Male 1:) You know, we're all laughing our heads off. (Male 3:) Did you have to borrow a reindeer to get down here? (Male 2:) Buddy, go back to the basement. (Male 1:) Hey, Jack weed, I get more action in a week than you've had your entire life. I've got houses in LA, Paris and Vale, each one of them with a 70 inch plasma screen. So I suggest you wipe that stupid smile off your face before I come over there and smack it off you. You're feeling strong, my friend, call me Elf one more time! (PAUSE) 

(Male 3, WHISPERS:) He's an angry elf. (FOOTSTEPS, PACY MUSIC) (Male 3:) Oh. Look at you! (CRASHING) (Male 3:) Ow! (CRASH) Hey! I wasn't ready for that. (CRASHING, MUSIC) (Male 1:) Call me Elf one more time! Call me Elf! (Male 3:) You're an elf. (CRASHING) (Male 2:) Miles... he thinks he's an elf. (PAUSE) Miles! (DOOR SLAM) Listen Miles! (MUSIC GOES QUIET) (Male 3:) He must be a South Pole elf. (Male 2:)You get the hell out of here. (Male 3:) Where do you want me to go? (Male 2:) i don't care where you go. I don't care that you're an elf. I don't care that you're nuts! I don't care at you my son! Get out of my life! Now!(PAUSE. FOOTSTEPS, SOMBRE MUSIC) (MUSIC STING)

Stephanie Dower 16:42

Oh, way to end on a dramatic moment.

Jason Clymo 16:46

Obviously, I was joking, because this piece of media is Elf. (LAUGHTER)

Stephanie Dower 16:50

Good old family Christmas movie.

Jason Clymo 16:52

Exactly. And I love the juxtaposition of our two pieces of media today.

Alistair Baldwin 16:56

Yeah, I mean Dinklage in that little vest is... doing something for me.

Stephanie Dower 17:00

Yeah, you're not wrong.

Alistair Baldwin 17:01

The kind of... Wall Street chic is... a good look on that.

Jason Clymo 17:02

The kind of... Wall Street chic is... a good look on that.

Stephanie Dower 17:06

But Kaed, do you want to share why you brought this to the table today?

Kaed Dawber 17:09

I think this is an important film to analyse, especially this scene, given the lack of education, I would say, within... Buddy, or Will Ferrell's character, believing that Finch, also known as Peter Dinklage, is an elf, whereas he's just a person with short stature or dwarfism... and how this feeds in to the... bullying and the stereotyping within society that we have on almost every disability.

Stephanie Dower 17:44

Yeah, it's a really fascinating way, I think, to use comedy to kind of bring light to yeah, as you say, like Will Ferrell's character, you know, as much you know, his upbringing, obviously, is feeding into where his mindset and how he reacts to Peter Dinklage, his character. But that is, unfortunately, like how people do react in reality as well, even without having grown up at the North Pole with Santa and that, you know, yeah.

Jason Clymo 18:14

Yeah, it's obviously because, you know, he's seen, you know, that specific body shape, let's say in that one context, and then he... and it's a good reflection, I guess, of probably like children... in, you know, like our society - outside of the North Pole - on how they would actually view people with disability, yeah, based on, you know, limited kind of experience.

Stephanie Dower 18:39

Yeah - do you think it does enough, like in that context? Because, like, obviously we're all laughing at it because, you know, it is a very funny scene. But do you think, like, the average person would be able to decipher that they were being kind of ironic with it a little bit? Or...

Kaed Dawber 18:55

I think... having a person with a disability and specifically short stature in a position of power demonstrates in a positive light that it is possible. However, there are challenges, as we've seen throughout this scene, but one of the main concerns I would have with this particular scene is the aggressive nature the media often portrays people with disabilities...

Stephanie Dower 18:59

Yeah, for sure.

Kaed Dawber 19:13

Particularly short people, often over-aggressive, willing to fight. We often see the kick to the knee and so forth.

Jason Clymo 19:28

It's a bit of that, like Mini Me from Austin Powers, that kind of vibe as well, where, like, his whole, like his whole character, is just like...

Kaed Dawber 19:35

Yeah. And as we've seen with the recent Snow White drama, there's... more to a person. There's more to a person's identity with a disability than their own physical or, yeah, invisible identity, yeah, that doesn't define them. There's more personalities and so forth. I think we're making progress, but I think there's much more...

Speaker 1 19:36

It's slow progress, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's interesting also, because Elf was what, 20 years ago now? Like, I know that's depressing...

Jason Clymo 20:06

Feeling old.

Stephanie Dower 20:08

But yeah, no, it's... certainly an interesting one. Yeah.

Jason Clymo 20:11

I think there's a few things in Elf that, like... might have not been deliberate... as well - like, for me...

Stephanie Dower 20:18

You just kind of lucked out with it.

Jason Clymo 20:19

Well, not like... sort of lucked out, but it's just like, more like, I can interpret that there's some commentary on, like, disability experiences, but I don't know if it was intentional anyway...

Stephanie Dower 20:30

Yeah...

Jason Clymo 20:30

But like, at the beginning, when Bud, Buddy is actually in the North Pole, and because he's tall, yeah, yeah, he struggles a lot with accessibility, and I find that was really interesting. It was like, this kind of like, gratifying experience to be like, Ha ha, there's a non-disabled person having a really shit time because their environment...

Stephanie Dower 20:51

Wasn't built for them - exactly.

That's really a good thing...

Kaed Dawber 20:53

There's another scene where he's in the North Pole and is sent to the special section of the workplace, yeah, and it's just emphasising that difference within society, that those who don't meet the standard quota are forced to adapt and live in seclusion.

Stephanie Dower 21:13

That's a good... I actually forgot about that scene - yeah, that's a good point, that segregation, like just the general population, and then you can go over there now, yeah, yeah, that's a good point, yeah.

Jason Clymo 21:22

Would be so interesting to know if they did that on purpose.

Stephanie Dower 21:24

Who would have thought Elf was such a rich topic of... (LAUGHTER)

Alistair Baldwin 21:28

It's a sharp satire on the social model of disability by creating a North Pole Utopia where short statute people are the norm. Yeah, beautiful, I love it.

Stephanie Dower 21:37

I want to see what the South Pole looks like.

Jason Clymo 21:38

I know. They're all just all really angry, apparently

Stephanie Dower 21:41

Apparently, yeah.

Jason Clymo 21:42

For whatever reason.

Alistair Baldwin 21:43

Well, they're getting into punch-ups with penguins.

Jason Clymo 21:46

Oh, exactly, and the reindeer.

Alistair Baldwin 21:48

Of course, yes. (MUSIC STING)

Jason Clymo 21:49

And now it's time for Ads Askew, where all of us on the panel are going to see an ad for the first time that represents or portrays disability in some way, and we'll work out if it is Askew, or if they've done a good job of representing disability. Let's take a look.

Stephanie Dower 22:08

Yeah, let's see it. (MUSIC STING) (PAUSE)

Jason Clymo 22:10

Yeah, cool. (LAUGHTER) (PAUSE)

Stephanie Dower 22:15

Okay, so...

Jason Clymo 22:17

Gut feelings? What the fuck?

Stephanie Dower 22:19

Trash... I... for anyone who is unable to see this right now, it is... Kylie Jenner posing, sitting in a wheelchair... a...

Alistair Baldwin 22:30

A gold wheelchair...

Stephanie Dower 22:32

A gold wheelchair, yeah, that's important, yeah, for the cover of a magazine, Interview magazine... I've never heard of this magazine... maybe I know why I've never heard of it now, but...

Jason Clymo 22:44

I... remember this one coming out...

Stephanie Dower 22:46

Okay, yeah...

Because I remember being shocked, and then in classic me, style, fucking dug into it, because I was like, What the fuck?

Alistair Baldwin 22:53

Yeah, are they selling the chair?

Jason Clymo 22:56

Like, exactly like, why does she look like Jigsaw out of Saw? No. And...

Stephanie Dower 23:02

She's wearing like a... dominatrix kind of, like, outfit.

Jason Clymo 23:06

Yeah, right? It's a lot.

Stephanie Dower 23:08

There's a lot going on.

Alistair Baldwin 23:10

Her posture is very like sexy CPR dummy.

Stephanie Dower 23:13

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

Alistair Baldwin 23:14

Like weirdly filtered radicals or something.

Jason Clymo 23:16

Aren't they called Annie Dolls or something?

Stephanie Dower 23:18

You know what, I actually didn't realise it was Kylie Jenner - until I saw the name, I was like, Oh, yeah, okay, yeah.

Jason Clymo 23:24

Yeah, it's an interesting one - the whole, like, concept was based around this, like, British artist...

Stephanie Dower 23:29

Yeah, it was paying homage to a controversial, yeah, self- proclaimed controversial, which... I'm sick of people who, like, use controversy as, like, a... excuse to do terrible things.

Jason Clymo 23:40

t's not cloud it's like, it's not doesn't make you interesting.

No, it just makes you like... yeah, the artist's work is known for using women, in particular, posing them in submissive positions, as he says, human furniture. Yeah. So we've now taken again a woman in a I don't know if you'd call that a submissive press, but whatever sitting in a wheelchair. Human furniture, is that what this...?

Well maybe that's the submissive part, like they're playing on - the fact...

Stephanie Dower 24:10

I don't... maybe I'm not highbrow enough, but please, someone explain how that is comment... like, what is that commenting on? Like, honestly... aside from terrible things. (LAUGHTER)

Kaed Dawber 24:22

I was just gonna take note on the type of wheelchair that that they've posed... pretty non functional. Yeah, I've sat in, you know, used wheelchairs for part of my life. Jason and yourself, you'd be more experienced and more knowledgeable about the topic than me...

Jason Clymo 24:39

Yeah, the chair's not getting you far. No. (LAUGHS)

Stephanie Dower 24:42

I think someone said, yeah, it's a very medicalised wheelchair, yeah? Like, if you were in a hospital, that's what they would put you in. Maybe not the Gold. (LAUGHTER)

Alistair Baldwin 24:51

Well, maybe the hospital she goes to.

Stephanie Dower 24:52

Maybe in a private hospital. Maybe, yeah, no, that's not a functional... that's not one that you're going to be going around in day-to-day lives in. So it's not even empowering in any kind of way, like it's just, again, I don't think that's the point.

Jason Clymo 25:06

I guess my thing is, I'm like, I would say it's Askew, because I'm like, I don't actually fucking understand how the wheelchair ties into the actual theme anyway. But also like, let's just not stick non-disabled people into mobility devices.

Did any... well, yeah, exactly right. Did anyone read the article where they kind of defended themselves? Because obviously there was a lot of backlash for this, straight away - shocking, I know - but in the article, like they were defending themselves, and they're like, Oh yeah, we're being accused of ableism. But they put ableism in quotation marks, and it's like, No, no, that's plain ableism. Like there's nothing...

Ableism - iif that's the thing - ...

Stephanie Dower 25:43

If that's what it is...

Let's get the red squiggly line on Microsoft Word under Ableism. It is real.

Trust me.

Alistair Baldwin 25:50

It's in the dictionary, because I use it a lot.

Stephanie Dower 25:55

Microsoft, you might need to fix that, yeah.

Alistair Baldwin 25:58

Microsoft, Interview magazine and the Kardashian-Jenners.

Stephanie Dower 26:01

They can all go together, yes.

Jason 26:04

Into the bin. (LAUGHTER)

Alistair Baldwin 26:06

The main thing for me, I think, is that part of what I think makes this terrible for me is just the broader context of there never being actual wheelchairs being cover models. And so I think it's especially glaring that it's featured as a prop before being featured as an organic part of a cover model that Interview magazine would ever have as a celebrity.

Jason Clymo 26:31

And probably like the artist that it's paying homage to, is that they're just using it to be controversial, to get eyeballs and probably sell their shitty magazine. So...

Stephanie Dower 26:40

look, they've achieved that. I now know what the heck Interview magazine... I still don't know what the heck they are.

Jason Clymo 26:44

It's worked to some degree, hasn't it?

Alistair Baldwin 26:46

Yes, if they're provocateurs, we are talking about it.

Stephanie Dower 26:49

Will I go and look at Interview magazine or ever touch it again? No, definitely not. Yeah. Anyway, just when we thought we were going to revive print media, we've just torn it apart. Yes. Anyway...

Jason Clymo 27:00

Okay, so I think we're all in agreeance that this ad is definitely Askew.

Stephanie Dower 27:05

Definitely Askew.

Jason Clymo 27:05

Absolutely. (MUSIC STING)

Stephanie Dower 27:07

All right, I think that's almost the time we have for you today. But before we leave you, we're just gonna go around the table and get our Speedy Suggestions. So Kaed, what do you have to share with the audience?

Kaed Dawber 27:18

if you have a chance? I'd like to shout out the movie The Station Agent. I think that's with Peter Dinklage. Also, I think that frames people with dwarfism in a positive light, this time, just the basic everyday experiences of a person with short stature... and yeah, I think it represents the short stature community in a positive light. Another suggestion I'd like to make to broader society is... Come over, ask respectful questions, converse with me. I'm just a regular person, just a little bit shorter. I'm happy to have a chat with you, if you want to learn more. I'd like to learn more about you, but, yeah, feel free to have a chat.

Jason Clymo 27:57

I love that - because, like, curiosity is so fine...

Stephanie Dower 28:00

That's it. Everyone's curious. And to be fair, you know, I get curious about other people as well. And, like, sometimes you do want to, like, strike up a conversation, but it's just the the feeling comfortable to ask respectful questions, yes, and to not be afraid to have those conversations. Yeah, so, and I'm also hearing have a Peter Dinklage marathon. That's thesuggestion I'm hearing...

Alistair Baldwin 28:22

Yeah. Station Agent, the new Hunger Games movie...

Jason Clymo 28:26

It all fits in really like perfectly, some of the...

Stephanie Dower 28:28

Amazing. Alistair, what about you?

Alistair Baldwin 28:31

love to recommend the album Prosthetic Boombox, by the musician Colaboy. Unfortunately, he passed earlier this year, but just a great album by a great disabled musician. And particularly, there's a song featuring the Avalanches, which is really great, Don't Forget Your Neighborhood... but yeah, just a primo. He branded himself as, like the Disabled Disco Dancer and... stunning. anyway...

Jason Clymo 28:58

I love that.

Stephanie Dower 28:58

I love music suggestions. So good, too. Jason?

Jason Clymo 29:02

Mine is a TV show suggestion. It is Heartbreak High - because I'm re watching at the moment, and I just think it does a really great job of representing the experience of autistic people.

Stephanie Dower 29:12

Amazing. Yeah. And my final Speedy Suggestion is actually Latecomers, which Alistair directed on, didn't you?

Alistair Baldwin 29:19

Oh, I did, yes, we won an ACTA Award. Yes.

Stephanie Dower 29:23

Yes, amazing, starring the lovely Hannah Diveny, yeah, Angus Thompson, yeah...

Alistair Baldwin 29:31

And directed, apart from me, by Madeline Gottlieb, who also directed Bound.

Speaker 2 29:35

Ah! Full circle. I love this.

Jason Clymo 29:39

It's a bit incestuous there.

Stephanie Dower 29:41

But you know...

Alistair Baldwin 29:41

It's a nepotism-based

Jason Clymo 29:42

Yeah, exactly.

Stephanie Dower 29:44

It's all about... But on a serious note, with a comment... like for me as a woman with disability, physical disability in particular, it was amazing to see the character that Hannah plays... you know, go through that experience... and actually seeing it on screen - we don't, we very, very rarely see that played out on screen, so it was really a great representation of that. So yes, thank you. Yes, yeah, thanks to the whole team for that.

Alistair Baldwin 30:10

Oh yeah. (LAUGHTER) Noted.

Stephanie Dower 30:14

Thanks everyone. That's all the time we have for today. But before we finally leave you, Kaed, where can our audience find more about you and what you do?

Kaed Dawber 30:23

Kaed Dawber on Instagram and Facebook, and you can find me there, posting my everyday life. Thanks. Alistair?

Alistair Baldwin 30:30

Baldwin, Alistair on Instagram and X, formerly Twitter. You can find me there.

Stephanie Dower 30:35

I love when, I love that we still have to say formerly Twitter. We're never gonna not say that.

Jason Clymo 30:36

It just sounds weird saying X.

Alistair Baldwin 30:41

The platform formerly known as Twitter.

Stephanie Dower 30:45

(LAUGHS) All right, well, thank you both for coming on the show today. It's been great chatting with you. And if you'd like to see more on Reframed and what we've spoken about on today's episode, head to our social media channels and stay tuned for more Reframed coming up soon. (THEME MUSIC UP AND OUT)