Reframed - Episode 2 – Madeleine Stewart and Caroline Bowditch

NOTE:  Much overlapping of discussion, some interjections indistinct, so not all words included in the transcript.

(THEME MUSIC)

Jason Clymo 0:06

Welcome to reframed the panel show that analyses disability in media.  (MUSIC STING)   My name is Jason Clymo, and I'm one of your co-hosts. I'm a queer young person with disability. I am very passionate about the accurate representation of people with disability on screen.

Stephanie Dower 0:27

And I'm Stephanie Dower - I'm a filmmaker, I'm an access coordinator, and I'm a keen traveler, and I'm really excited to talk all things disability on screen today with our amazing panel of guests. First up, we have Caroline Bowditch. After 16 years of an acclaimed career as a performance maker and industry leader in the UK, Caroline returned to Australia in 2018 to take on the role as CEO at Arts Access Victoria, a big role indeed. During her six year tenure, Caroline's strong advocacy resulted in significant reform of funding programs for deaf and disabled artists.

Jason Clymo 1:03

We're also joined today by Madeleine Stewart. Thank you so much for coming on. Yeah, look at that. With over a decade of experience in stand up comedy, disability advocate and award winning comedian, Madeleine Stewart is a refreshing and exciting voice to the Aussie comedy scene. Madeleine recently won the Stella Young Award in 2024 and the AMP Tomorrow Maker Award in 2019 for her advocacy and production of inclusive, accessible comedy shows. Thank you so much for joining us, both of you. We're so excited to get into this.

Madeleine Stewart 1:35

We're so keen.

Caroline Bowditch 1:36

We are.

Jason Clymo 1:37

Yay! (MUSIC STING) Now it's time for our first segment. Get Your Head in the Frame - where I'll be asking these three wonderful people on the panel with me, three questions about pop culture media and possibly some little disability in media bits in there as well. Ready?

Madeleine Stewart 1:57

Yes.

Jason Clymo 1:58

Let's go - question one: in Australia, women account for what percent of quoted sources in news stories? A, 65%... B, 44%... C, 30%.

Caroline Bowditch 2:12

Caroline! I'm gonna guess. I'm gonna say 30%

Jason Clymo 2:15

Yeah, and you are correct. I heard the little scoff when I read out 65% Deb (LAUGHTER) - any words you want to show, want to share on that?

Stephanie Dower 2:23

No, it was more the question. I was like, it's not something I've thought about, yeah, but now that you say that, I'm like, Yeah, okay, no, that, that's a good point. Yeah, interesting. Yeah.

Jason Clymo 2:36

Yeah... much lower obviously.

Madeleine Stewart 2:36

Do you think it's because women often say very sensible quotes that aren't just kind of... newsworthy... (CROSSTALK) they're not gonna get you a headline? We actually make sense - dare I say, no offense, men sometimes say the most ridiculous shit ever, and that's what's in the newspaper. That's what's on the telly.

Stephanie Dower 2:53

That's true. That's true. Yeah.

Speaker 1 2:57

It could also be targeted with, like, leadership positions, because, like, if you think politicians...

Madeleine Stewart 3:02

That's the sensible answer...

Jason Clymo 3:02

I'm, like, taking your feedback, and I'm going with somethingsensible...

Madeleine Stewart 3:10

Women are too sensible, that's not newsworthy...

Stephanie Dower 3:10

We're too sensible, but we're kept out of high power positions...

Jason Clymo 3:12

Yeah...

Stephanie Dower 3:13

We don't have...

Jason Clymo 3:14

Somebody add that up - there's some fucking bad math there. Are we ready for question two? (Yes.) Righty-oh. Get Your Head in the Frame. In 2016 there were how many times as many disabled people in Australia as there were disabled characters portrayed on Aussie TV? A is 10 times as many Australians. B is four times and C is two times as many.

Stephanie Dower 3:39

Steph! A - 10 times as many.

Jason Clymo 3:41

Incorrect. (Hmmm.)

Madeleine Stewart 3:43

OK, Maddie! (Yeah.) B.

Jason Clymo 3:45

Yes, correct. Four times as many Australians lived in Australia or people disability lived in Australia as there were people with disability portrayed on Aussie TV. Yeah, I would have thought it would be more. (Yeah.) OK, are we ready for Question three? (Yes, yes) Which of the following is NOTreferenced as one of Timothy Chalamet's official nicknames on his IMDb - A, Timmy Tim... B, Timultuous... or C, Timmo?

Madeleine Stewart 4:15

All them are ridiculous.

Stephanie Dower 4:16

I want them all to be like things that he actually calls himself.

Jason Clymo 4:20

I feel like Timultuous could be, like, a rapper's name.

Madeleine Stewart 4:22

I think it could be C, simply because, like... he's French, no one's calling him Timmo... Timmo!

Speaker 1 4:30

Well, you'd be wrong. (Oh...) It's either A, Timmy Tim or B, Timultuous.

Stephanie Dower 4:36

Right, I think he doesn't call himself... Timultuous.

Jason Clymo 4:39

Correct.

Stephanie Dower 4:40

Damn it. I wanted that to be true.

Jason Clymo 4:41

It's the best of the three.

Stephanie Dower 4:43

Yes, it is.

Jason Clymo 4:43

Like what's Timmo?

Madeleine Stewart 4:44

We should send it in.

Caroline Bowditch 4:45

Yeah, we should.

Madeleine Stewart 4:46

We'll send it in as a suggestion. Timothy Chalamet, please call yourself Timultuous.

Jason Clymo 4:50

As soon as we finish here, we're sending it in to IMDb.

Stephanie Dower 4:52

You heard it here first on Reframed. (LAUGHTER, MUSIC STING)

Speaker 1 4:56

Now it's time for Show and Talk. So our two wonderful guests have brought along some pieces of media for us to check out and really just talk through what went right, what went wrong. So let's play clip number one... (MUSIC STING)

(media clip) 5:10

(Man 1:) Everyone, you know how we are always saying we wish we had a custom oil painting of our family. (Others:) No, we do not, nope. (Man 1:) Well, I lucked into a coupon. Please welcome... (Woman:) JJ, I just got off the phone with the Social Security office. I was complaining that you haven't received your checks. They looked at your file, and it turns out you have been receiving your checks. You've just been spending the money on flashy gifts. (Male teenager:) Oops. Well, I hope we can all laugh at this someday, huh? (Woman:)Oh, if you think that's funny, there's more. When they looked at your file, they saw that you haven't reported your earnings at the grocery store last year, you shouldn't have got any money, and now you have to return all of it. (Man 2:) Are you ready? (Man 1:) He can't pay you. (Ripping sound) (Others) Oh, ooh! (DOOR SLAMS. MUSIC STING)

Jason Clymo 6:06

(LAUGHTER) Too fabulous.

Stephanie Dower 6:09

All right... I mean, I'm just gonna put it out there that I absolutely love this show. It's just... anyway, but I will pass it over to Caroline first, because you brought this to the table. What do you like, or perhaps not like about the show?

Caroline Bowditch 6:23

I think when I was introduced to Speechless, I just thought, this is an amazing representation of disability. It's so authentic, it's and it's not just the representation of that young man, but it's of his whole family, and I think it's the interplay between the siblings, which are often left out of a picture regularly. No pun intended, but I just think there were so many funny moments in the show that felt so real to me as a wheelchair user... and I'm thinking specifically, in the first episode, he enters a school via the bins, because that's the only accessible way in. 

And I was like, I've spent quite a lot of my life by the bins, getting in the back doors of venues and various spaces. So I just think, I think it's, it feels real, and, yeah, it's funny. I think that's the really good thing. It's actually, genuinely funny. And I think so often stuff around disability isn't funny - or isn't, unlike you, isn't told by people who have insight, true insight, into things.

Stephanie Dower 7:42

Well, that's it. I think people, you know, because quite often, if we are seeing disability on screen, if it's not coming from an authentic place, people are too afraid to play into it and to realize and recognise the humour in it. So yeah, I think that's, you know, I love Minnie Driver as an actor, and like the whole ensemble cast. I think that's the other thing. It's an ensemble cast, so no one player sort of outshines the other. I think they all, you might look at it and be like, Oh, it's the show with the guy in the wheelchair. But no, it really the whole family plays such an important role. 

And you know, yeah, you do see, you know how disability impacts the dynamics of the family, which is beautiful, humorous, like all of the things. So, yeah, I'm a big fan. Yeah.

Caroline Bowditch 8:30

I think it also portrays him as a teenager, yeah? Like getting up to all the shit that teenagers get up to. (Yeah.) With an assistant. He just goes along for the ride.

Stephanie Dower 8:40

I love the assistant as well. That could have played into the, you know, the taking away his agency, you know, as an individual, but he's very independent. He's very much in control of the situation. And also, I love that the assistant is not someone who is a typical support worker, either,

Caroline Bowditch 8:58

He's a cleaner at the school - and the assistant that he gets allocated... the young guy doesn't like the sound of her voice, so he doesn't like her as his voice. So he's like, No, go away. I want him instead. So yeah,

Jason Clymo 9:14

So that's a lot of agency, then. That's great.

Caroline Bowditch 9:18

And his family doesn't like like that. His mum really struggles with it, making that decision, but obviously respects it. (Yeah, yeah.)

Speaker 1 9:26

Really interesting dynamics, I think, with that, as well as like, with, you know, teenagers, for people with disability and their parents and the whole like... which is probably a universal experience, as well with just parents letting... learning to let go and give their children more independence, but I imagine it's explored really well through this.

Stephanie Dower 9:46

And again, it's not just one perspective you've got, like the whole family's... individual perspectives to play into, which is, doesn't it means you don't fall into the trope of, you know, the person with a disability inspiring other people, or vice versa. You know. Words, yeah. They all, you know, feed off each other, which is great to see.

Jason Clymo 10:03

Because you get to see them from, like, every different character's, like, lens...

Stephanie Dower 10:03

Yeah, exactly, that's right.

Jason Clymo 10:05

And perspective. So it's like, you know, when the siblings are like, Yeah, you're a little shit.

Stephanie Dower 10:12

Exactly, accurate!

Jason Clymo 10:13

Yeah, true.

Caroline Bowditch 10:15

I also think it's not just about him. The siblings have their own story lines as well, and it becomes as much about them. (Yeah. Absolutely. Brilliant.)

Stephanie Dower 10:25

Well, should we get down to the next piece of media?

Jason Clymo 10:27

I think we should. It's gonna be a juicy one.

Stephanie Dower 10:29

It's gonna be quite different to what we just saw, I think.

Jason Clymo 10:32

I know, right. Let's roll it! (MUSIC STING)

(media clip) 10:35

(Woman:) I just thought I'd see if I could fix some of these. Or, you know, if you want to get new ones, I could go into town at lunchtime, or we could both go. (Man:) You know what, Louisa - me smashing those photographs was not an accident. (Woman:) Sorry, I didn't. I didn't think... (Man:) You thought you knew best. Well, I don't want those pictures staring at me every time I'm stuck in bed waiting for someone to bloody get me out again. Okay? (Woman:) I wasn't gonna fix the one of Alicia. I'm not going to do that. Stupid. (Man:)Spare me the cod psychology. Just go and raid your grandma's wardrobe or whatever it is you do when you're not making tea. (PAUSE) 

(Woman:) You don't have to be an arse. Your friend deserved it. I'm just trying to do my job as best I can. So it would be really nice if you didn't try and make my life as miserable as you apparently make everyone else's. (Man:) And what if I said I didn't want you here? (Woman:) I'm not employed by you. I'm employed by your mother. So unless she says she doesn't want me here anymore, I'm staying not because I care about you or particularly enjoy your company, but because I need the money. I really need the money. (PAUSE) (Man:) Just... put them in the drawer. (MUSIC STING)

Jason Clymo 11:44

It's Me Before You.

Madeleine Stewart 11:46

I hate that film. (LAUGHTER)

Jason Clymo 11:49

Absolutely fucking dumpsterfying in my opinion.

Stephanie Dower 11:51

I mean, yeah, it's... I don't know if there's much in the way of redeeming factors, except it shows people with disability can be arseholes too, yeah, and that's the thing. (INTERJECTIONS...)

Jason Clymo 12:04

There is romance...

Stephanie Dower 12:06

Possibly, there is the romance element, but I mean, for anyone who has not seen the film, the whole film is basically... the lead character Will, he's become quadriplegic from an accident and basically wants to die because of that, because he now has to live life as a wheelchair user. I will say, I saw this in the cinema... because I had actually read the book, and I liked the book better. There was obviously big issues. Still, I did like the book better. 

Seeing it on screen, obviously a lot of context was taken out as well, but I remember seeing it at the cinema. I was sitting at the back of the cinema because that's where the accessible seating was, and honestly, I swear at the end, when the credits were rolling, everyone's having to walk past me to exit the cinema, I felt like saying to each and every one of them, like, I don't want to die. Like, it... not everyone that uses a wheelchair is miserable. Like that is so true. It was just, it was very uncomfortable.

Madeleine Stewart 13:09

Also, like the character of Will, he's so privileged, his family is so rich - Let's just pop off to Switzerland! (Yeah, really, yeah).

Stephanie Dower 13:09

Yeah, like, you know, Oh, let's hire a full-time support worker as well. Yeah, I hated that as well, because... like, your mother, how old are you man, like, and your mother is hiring your support worker for you.

Speaker 1 13:31

Like, I really hated that moment in that clip as well, though, because, like...

Stephanie Dower 13:35

I don't work for you...

Jason Clymo 13:36

Yeah, and like, he has no choice and no agency. And I really hate that, pretty much I hate everything about this movie.

Stephanie Dower 13:42

He would be such a capable individual. He has all the resources he would need to live an incredible life, a different life to what he lived, absolutely but an incredible life. And he just throws it away because the world has told him that the disabled experience is not worth it. Yeah, it's you'd rather be dead. (Yeah...)

Madeleine Stewart 14:03

Not to mention how non disabled people are, like, I can do anything... at least, you know, it's very disabled inspiration. Also, nobody's questioning the fact that his support worker is hooking up with him. (LAUGHTER)

Stephanie Dower 14:03

I mean, yeah...

Jason Clymo 14:04

Not great. Is she still being paid? When does that stop?

Madeleine Stewart 14:26

Is that the NDIS, like sex worker thing that they were talking about in the media?

Stephanie Dower 14:30

No wonder the NDIS is going broke. I mean... (Yeah!)

No, actually it's... what you said before Caroline... Liz Carr's documentary.... Better... was it Better Off Dead?

Caroline Bowditch 14:44

Better Off Dead.

Stephanie Dower 14:45

Yeah, like, that just rings like, you know, that's... how it's seen. And it's so traumatising, I think you know, to, yeah...

Speaker 1 14:53

Here's my problem with it, though. Is like, okay, there's, that's the story of... (LAUGHTER) fine, right? And that's some person out there, or a group of people out there, will have that, of course, as their like, ringing true, as their experience and their current feelings. It does nothing to try and, like, explain the nuances of why someone with disability might feel that way, because we all have probably experienced times where we felt, of course, everyone... absolute garbage, because of a lot of the time things that are going on in like wider society, in the community...

Caroline Bowditch 15:26

The joys of ableism, yeah?

Jason Clymo 15:29

Yeah, and inaccessibility...

Stephanie Dower 15:29

I will say, that's where I think the translation between book versus film, some of that context is taken out, yeah, so... which is unfortunate, but...

Jason Clymo 15:40

I mean, it's not very sexy and entertaining.

Stephanie Dower 15:42

No, well, that's it, and you've only got, you know, two hours in a film, a book has a lot of detail, but it's still not great, even in the book. So yeah.

Speaker 1 15:50

Right. On that note, let's move on. Third and last clip. Let's play it. (MUSIC STING)

(media clip) 16:13

(WEIRD MUSIC, ECHOING FX) (Man:) If you don't want my protection, then off you go. (FOOTSTEPS) (MUSIC STING)

Jason Clymo 16:26

(LAUGHTER) Bye Felicia! (INTERJECTIONS)

Madeleine Stewart 16:28

I love that little girl. She's got a little sass. (Yeah...) So I brought this one. Yeah. Well, obviously, Bond is a classic. It's classic. We have all experienced a Bond villain that either looks like us or is very connected to our disability, because, let's say there's a lot of diversity and disability represented in bonds. Such a pity. No disabled people play them. You know what I mean? What a shame. Yes, and they're always villains. They're always villains or victims. (Yes, yeah, true, yeah.) I think if you haven't seen, No Time to Die spoilers - all I'm saying is we have this, like, history of Bond that we hate. You know, terrible representation, terrible.

Like, as a child, Bond villains were the first representation of me that I've ever seen and or like, people with disability. So I was always grew up being like, Okay, disabled people are villains. Yeah, yeah. It wasn't until Star Wars that I was like, Oh, we could be heroes. It could happen... not going into that. But I've been watching this film, and it was something about Rami Malik's character, Safin, that I actually weirdly devil's advocate connected to in a surprising manner. He's a very naughty guy. He's doing a lot of naughty things. He wants to ruin the world. Maybe not then, I don't have, like, a diabolical plan to destroy the world. 

But he had some good points, like, there were some moments in this film where I was like, Do you know what actually kind of feel like? Yeah, I agree. Who's the villain, who's the hero? Because, like, there was a great moment in this film where saffron says to bond something like, wear the same you are constantly killing. And there is constantly like this fallout, these, you know, people who are around who just happen like innocent victims who are dying. He's blowing up cities. He's ruining these beautiful architectures, homes like he's blowing up cemeteries. He's shooting up Italian villages. This man needs to be stopped. And thank God someone stopped him, like... he was killed at the end, thank goodness, because someone had to do it. (MURMURS, AGREEMENT)

James Bond has killed more disabled people than any other hero. He's killing more disabled people than ever, and he may as well work for NDIS with the amount of disabled people he's killing. But all I'm saying is bond and saffon, who is the villain. Bond is a terrible man. He needed to be stopped, and I'm glad someone did. Yeah, and saffon is like, I've got my little isolated island. I've got my little garden going. Yeah, he was isolated. You know, he's got this weapon that he's like, based on DNA, so it's not like a virus where chronically ill people are going to be, you know, affected. He's like, No, I'm specifically killing people I want to kill.

Stephanie Dower 16:30

He's really thought it through.

Madeleine Stewart 18:46

Disabled people get things done efficiently, and I can't help but admire that.

Stephanie Dower 19:36

We're the best problem solvers. I say this all the time, yeah.

Jason Clymo 19:39

That was the underlying message of this whole, they're gonna be, like, really learnt hard.

Madeleine Stewart 19:45

I just wanna be devil's advocate...

Stephanie Dower 19:46

You pulled us into your side now, yeah, you are right.

Madeleine Stewart 19:50

Yeah, like I watch every Bond film being like, Okay, here we go. Disabled people are gonna ruin the day and, like, Cyclops, obviously, with this eye exploding. I mean, yeah, one. Foresight for his parents, calling him Cyclops.

Caroline Bowditch 20:03

Before that even happened.

Madeleine Stewart 20:04

Yeah, but it's so it's a wild ride, Bond, yeah. Mostly dislike it, but it can't help but admire.

Jason Clymo 20:11

They do love to fall into that trope of just hiring non-disabled people to play disabled people, and also making disabled people the villain all the time.

Madeleine Stewart 20:11

We need a disabled Bond.

Stephanie Dower 20:21

I was just about to say, Where's our Bond? Yes, yeah.

Madeleine Stewart 20:25

But I want like a smart Bond, like a Safin Bond. (Yeah!)

Jason Clymo 20:29

Like a precise Bond. Stop blowing up Italian architecture, yes. (LAUGHTER)

Madeleine Stewart 20:35

Blow up the ugly building. Yeah. (LAUGHTER)

Stephanie Dower 20:39

Love it. I love it, (STING) All right - and now we're going to get it into our next segment, Ads Askew. So we're all gonna watch an ad for the first time together, and you'll see our in-the-moment reactions to it. I'm assuming there will be some sort of disability representation involved. So we'll see how on point it is, or perhaps how askew it is. So let's roll a clip. (MUSIC STING)

(media clip) 21:15

(FOOTBALL GAME NOISES) (PANEL LAUGHS) Paddypower can't get Tiddles back, but we can put the smile back on your face! For the first televised Premier League match every Saturday and Sunday back a team to win and get a free bet if they're losing at half time. Now that'll set the cat among the pigeons. (MEOW!) Paddypower. You're welcome! (MUSIC STING)

Jason Clymo 21:34

(ALL LAUGH) I don't understand.

Stephanie Dower 21:35

I did not know where that ad was going. I was like, What are we, what are we talking about here? I'm also a bit confused about the whole like...

Jason Clymo 21:43

Why do they have things on their faces?

Stephanie Dower 21:45

Like, they're not...

Caroline Bowditch 21:46

Blind football.

Stephanie Dower 21:47

Yeah. So like, are they blind themselves? Some of them are.

Madeleine Stewart 21:51

Are they advertising blind football games?

Stephanie Dower 21:55

So they should play... like...

Madeleine Stewart 21:58

I'm confused!

It's a gambling, a gambling app.

Stephanie Dower 22:03

Yeah, so, like, I appreciate that a gambling like platform is bringing awareness to a disabled sport, but it's also saying, like, they might kill your cat as well. So...

Speaker 1 22:17

Oh, I thought like they had, like, right? I thought that was part of the bit...?

Stephanie Dower 22:23

No, well, I mean, I guess it is kind of, but, like, they wear the blindfolds to even the playing field. (Yeah, yeah.) It's like Goalball. (Right, yeah.) And so I honestly, I thought this was gonna be a Specsavers ad. So you know, should have gone to Specsavers. (LAUGHTER)

Madeleine Stewart 22:42

I think it's fine. I don't know. I don't know. I think it's okay. Like, as a comedian, yeah, I'm thinking about, like, what is funny about this? Like, what is it that we're laughing at? We're not laughing at the football players. We're laughing at circumstances.

Jason Clymo 22:46

The cat.

Madeleine Stewart 22:46

We are - because it's not like, yeah, it's like, the ball just happened to go out and the cat just happened to come in... it's like, yeah, it's not punching down on anyone. Except maybe the ref.

Stephanie Dower 23:08

And they're all sort of kind of looking around a bit like they all kind of look like they're not used to that environment. They all can look like they've been dropped into this game and put Blindfolds on. I'm not getting like, lived experience from them, but I also could be reading too much into it as well. So I'm not really sure what I feel like.

Madeleine Stewart 23:28

We can't assume someone's disability. (Exactly, right...)

We don't know, they could be blind.

Stephanie Dower 23:38

Someone we know, yeah.

Jason Clymo 23:40

Because we're all... really into sport.

Madeleine Stewart 23:30

This could be like the Olympic team for the UK, and we'd be like, Oh, they're definitely non-disabled people. That's... they look too good at that sport...

Caroline Bowditch 23:57

I'm relieved that we see the cat up a tree.

Stephanie Dower 23:59

Yeah. The cat survived. Thank goodness.

Jason Clymo 24:01

Yeah, ten out of ten for the cat. (Yes. Yeah...) Good effort.

Speaker 2 24:03

Do you think that added that in just from like, audience response being like, We need to know the cat's OK.

Stephanie Dower 24:08

Please don't let the cat die, please.

Jason Clymo 24:11

I'm so on the fence about this. Like, I don't know what it is about it. I just feel like I don't know if it's right or... it's not right.

Stephanie Dower 24:19

To be fair, we're not scoring it. So we don't have to have a conclusion... but yeah, I mean, I'd be curious to know if anyone else has any thoughts of this....

Caroline Bowditch 24:27

I also don't know what the general public would make of this. Whether they'd all watch it going, Why have they all got blindfolds on... ?

Jason Clymo 24:27

I mean, that was my initial reaction because I was like, Surely, like a massive gambling company in the UK isn't actually including a disabled...

Madeleine Stewart 24:46

Okay, you just don't know...

Jason Clymo 24:47

But to me, I'm like, The bar is so low that you don't assume... inclusion...

Madeleine Stewart 24:47

The UK, but it's the UK!

Caroline Bowditch 24:55

That's what we said.

Jason Clymo 24:56

I was waiting for them to take them off, and We kicked the cat or something, and it was, yeah, Specsavers or... I feel like, in conclusion, we're not quite sure if it's askew or not. I feel like I'm askew, on this one.

Stephanie Dower 25:10

I feel like we're a bit askew. Our reactions...

Jason Clymo 25:12

anyway, it was kind of entertaining, and I'm glad the cat's okay. (MUSIC STING) So that's about all we've got time for. But before we do leave you, we wanted to just get some speedy suggestions from everyone on the panel for those watching along at home. So this could be things like great TV shows or movies with good disability representation. It could just be some like, general life advice. It could be some accessibility and inclusion advice, whatever.

Madeleine Stewart 25:43

I would probably say my first piece of advice, if you want to see some good representation of people with disability, I find, personally my my favorite representation of people with disability is out in the fringe, like the little indie films, unknown disabled comedians, you know, like, if it's coming straight from the source, it's golden. You know, it's like a privilege to hear these stories. 

I think Emily Dash makes excellent films. Every single one of her films are brilliant because she's part of the whole thing. She's not just like in well, she's in some of the films, but she's not just like an actor in them. She's also like, writing them, directing them. You've got to be like, not just on the front of the camera, you've got to be behind the camera, and that's when the good tone comes through the work. And I think that's where a lot of these shows go wrong, because we watch it, and we can straight away clock if a person with disability was part of the decision making, yeah, and the producing of the film.

Jason Clymo 26:44

And just like the creative, yeah, the writing, all of it.

Madeleine Stewart 26:47

Exactly. And so it's so refreshing when we do find things that are like, created and like, it's important to have more inclusion behind the camera. Absolutely. That is my hot tip.

Stephanie Dower 26:58

Love it. Amazing. Caroline?

Caroline Bowditch 27:00

I would say, if you're in a new city, find a disabled person to orientate you to transport. I was thinking about this the other day, and I was like, Wouldn't it be great if visitors, if we could have disabled visitor guides, almost, that would kind of meet up with you and go. It's been an afternoon together. What can I show you? What do you need to know? You need to know how to go on train. There's rules in Melbourne and all those things. So it's, I think disabled mentors or travel companions in cities, I think would be great.

Speaker 1 27:32

On a bit of a... really quick side note - I'm like, I feel like I really need to find, like, a disabled travel agent.

Caroline Bowditch 27:38

Oh yeah, that's one of my aspirations, is to be a disabled travel agent.

Jason Clymo 27:41

Well there you go.

Caroline Bowditch 27:42

Yeah, I haven't got there yet.

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know...

Jason Clymo 27:45

I'll be your first client.

Caroline Bowditch 27:46

I want to have a website at some point called Crip Hacks, yeah, all of those things to kind of go, yeah, that's fun, yeah. Can't reach the tap in your bathroom. Get a stick, put a thing on the end, and you can pull it with a... great problem solving, things that we do all the time. Actually, we don't often always have an opportunity to share them with each other.

Jason Clymo  28:07

Mine is just going to be, because I don't think I've done this much so far, but mine's a little message to the non-stable people of the world, do not touch somebody's wheelchair or assistive device without their permission and explicit permission you can definitely ask if they need help. So for me, for example, I always get asked for help when I'm like, getting in and out of the car, and I'm sure, like, sometimes I'm, like, being really rough, and it looks like, Oh my God, his wheelchair is going to go flying away in the wind or something. 

But like, Wow, no, I don't need help, by the way, usually, but it's nice if you ask. It's not nice if you ask, and then, as I'm saying, No, you've already touched my wheelchair, and I might get out of the way. So that's my little piece, eh. Steph?

Stephanie Dower 28:51

Yeah. I'm also going to follow on a little bit for the non-disabled crowd out there. Just around, because we were talking about in Speechless, how the Michael Fowler character, he has a support worker with him most of the time, and I often have a support worker going around with me at different places. And... never greet the support worker first. Never direct conversation to the person that, the person with disabilities with, whether it's an interpreter, a support worker, whoever they may be, you know, keep your eyes on the person that you're actually talking to, which is the person with disability, because, you know what, we're actually great conversationalists, and if we're not, we'll let you know. So yeah.

Jason Clymo  29:34

Before we do log off, I do want to just give you guys the chance to let people know at home where they can keep engaging with you. Follow you, check out your work. So Madeline, why don't you just let us know first?

Madeleine Stewart 29:45

Well, I'd probably say Instagram. Follow me on Instagram and send me messages. You can see my work a lot on Instagram, or you can just come to my shows.

Jason Clymo 29:54

Caroline?

Caroline Bowditch 29:56

I'm a bit crap on the old socials. (LAUGHTER) So...

Jason Clymo 30:00

Look me up in the Yellow Pages!

Caroline Bowditch 30:01

Yeah, absolutely. You can find me on Facebook, just under Caroline Bowditch - or I'm Agent Bowditch on Instagram, but I'll start populating again...

Jason Clymo 30:12

Bond themed again, Agent...

Caroline Bowditch 30:14

Agent Bowditch. It's because I was an agent for change, but I never got any special weapons or a long leather coat, which is what I really wanted to hide them in. But anyway, I got the title.

Madeleine Stewart 30:23

Next film, next film! You don't know who the next Bond is, could be you.

Stephanie Dower 30:29

The next Judy Dench.

Jason Clymo 30:33

That's all we've got time for. So thank you so much for watching along, and we'll see you next time on the next episode of Reframed. (THEME MUSIC OUT)