Reframed - Jen Hargrave and Nethra Raman

Speaker 1 0:00

Jason,

Jason Clymo 0:07

welcome to reframe the panel show that analyzes all things disability in media.

Stephanie Dower 0:17

I'm Jason Climo and I'm Stephanie Dower, and let's meet today's special guests. First up, we have Jen Hargrave, who is an advocate and researcher focusing on Safety and Justice. She's currently working at the University of Melbourne on a project about disability access to important information in emergencies, and is completing an internship at the ABC welcome Jen.

Jason Clymo 0:40

Also with us today. We have Natha Raman, who is a musician based in Sydney. Recently, she was one of the top 28 contestants on The Voice Australia 2024 welcome both of you. We're

Stephanie Dower 0:52

so excited. All right, so now let's get to know both of you a little bit better. Jen, you do a lot of research around disability access. What do you feel is the most promising thing you've discovered in relation to accessibility?

Jen Hargrave 1:09

I think in a recent project I did around how people recover from experiencing violence, we talked to a lot of people with and without disabilities, and a lot of the people with disabilities spoke about the power they get from peer groups and self advocacy groups, and just how much they share information and build up strength together. And that movement makes me feel so positive,

Stephanie Dower 1:33

nice. Yeah, people coming together. I love that. That's great. Yeah,

Jason Clymo 1:38

bit of a hope out there. Yeah, well, I've kind of taken a different turn. So I want to know from you, are there any bureaucratic roadblocks that can get in the way of progressing disability access? And then, if yes, which I imagine that there are? How do you navigate them? Well,

Jen Hargrave 1:54

one of the biggest ones, I think, of is that a part of bureaucratic processes is consultation. And all levels of government have gotten quite professional at doing fake consultations and even calling it co design now, and they're so good at that. And for people with disabilities, there can be lots of barriers to even participating in those consultations. And I've actually had people say to me, oh, there's only a couple of you disabled people here. So we didn't really hear much about disability access in our consultation.

Stephanie Dower 2:26

If you don't ask about it, you won't hear anything about it.

Jason Clymo 2:30

You don't seek out the people. They're not just going to come knock on your door.

Jen Hargrave 2:34

Yeah, and hey, we're 20% of the population. So did you want to wait your results a little bit accordingly and reflect on who's not in the room. Yeah, so to circumnavigate that barrier, bring on the revolution. Hey,

Jason Clymo 2:53

still a work in progress. Little longer. Yeah, keep me in the loop. Now, over to nathra, how does the intersectionality of your experience as an artist of color and an artist with a disability inform your perspective on your work? It's a juicy question.

Nethra Raman 3:11

Great question. I think, I think having or being part of two minorities, I'd say it makes me feel very special. It makes me feel like I have a lot of power to try and change the way people perceive us. I think it also means that I can try and reach a wider group of people and be able to represent so many more people who feel like they don't see themselves, that they don't feel included or part of everything like any other person does. I think it forms a very complex, complex situation in my mind, where I'm like, I have, I have this, I have this mission that I need to, want to accomplish, but I think it's very

Stephanie Dower 4:08

special. I'd say, yeah, yeah, awesome. Absolutely. I love that. So I'm really excited, because you were on the voice this year. Congratulations.

Nethra Raman 4:19

Thank you. Thank

Stephanie Dower 4:20

you so much. I'm really curious, because I actually, I think we've seen a bit of disability representation over the years on the voice, give us a bit of behind the scenes. Gus, what was your experience like in regards to, like, accessibility and inclusion behind the scenes?

Nethra Raman 4:35

Great question. I think I was very, very fortunate. Actually. I had, like, people always asking to if there ways that they could make situations easier for me, getting getting to set, on set wherever we were, there was always people to help out accessible bathrooms, like everything was there already set up and. And just the people itself. It wasn't, it didn't really feel like I was separated from the rest of them. It was all just like one big, happy family, which is which was really good. And I think I was really fortunate for that, because I know some some other people did have quite differing experiences, whether or not they had a disability or not, um, but I think my experience was actually really good. Oh, good, yeah.

Stephanie Dower 5:26

So glad to hear Yeah, amazing, yeah.

Jason Clymo 5:28

I was like, I'm interested to know, like, what? Yeah, stage setup would be like,

Stephanie Dower 5:32

yeah. They also just their attitude towards it all, yeah,

Nethra Raman 5:36

yeah. Like, whenever we had to, like, for the sets and things like that, they always were checking and making sure that I was comfortable, like, with the types of shoes and, like, firstly, I suck at wearing heels, like walking on, like, steps and things like that. They were always very mindful, and they kept making sure that I felt comfortable. Which was great, which was really great. Yeah,

Stephanie Dower 5:56

amazing. Oh, well again, congratulations.

Jason Clymo 6:00

It's time to test our pop culture knowledge with Get your head in the frame. I'll be asking our panelists multiple choice questions about pop culture and disability. So let's get into it. Question one, Michelle and Barack Obama's production company, higher ground produce which award winning film? A, crip camp B, coda, or C, the peanut butter Falcon. Steph, yeah. Speedy, yes. Crip camp Yes, correct,

Stephanie Dower 6:32

yay, which is a great I think that was one of my speedy suggestions on a previous episode. So, yes, yes, go watch it.

Jason Clymo 6:40

One point for Seth, finally, we ready. Yeah. Okay. Question two, which American actress and Broadway star sang the American anthem during the 2024 Summer Paralympics closing ceremony? A, Madison Ferris B, Ali Stroker or C Marissa, Bode

Stephanie Dower 7:05

Steph, I have no idea. Uh, Ali, stroking, yeah,

Jason Clymo 7:09

really good. Guess. I know

Stephanie Dower 7:16

I'm redeeming myself.

Jason Clymo 7:17

Still, two points up for grabs. We could have a draw still question three, singer, choice of on has, which connective tissue disorder? A, Ehlers, Danlos Syndrome, B, Marfan Syndrome, or C, rheumatoid arthritis? Jen, this is a guess. See, no Nether a no. I

Stephanie Dower 7:52

knew it wasn't rheumatoid arthritis, because that's what I am. So I'm like, I don't think we share that. Um, yeah, I didn't know that at all. Yeah. There you go. I know I thought it was a as well. I thought it was eating Yeah. So there you go. There you go.

Jason Clymo 8:14

Love it, all right. Final question, Steph wins by default, three

Stephanie Dower 8:18

points, but uh, by hard work, what do you mean?

Jason Clymo 8:22

Yeah, I guess too much research, too much research, I'm guessing. But someone can still redeem some pride by getting this point Question four, comedian Hannah Gadsby talks about her late autism diagnosis in which of her stage shows a Douglas B, Nanette or C. Body of work.

Nethra Raman 8:51

Wild guess. Nanette,

Jason Clymo 8:54

incorrect. I'm afraid Jen Douglas, yes, well done. Somebody had to get one point.

Stephanie Dower 9:04

I wasn't, yeah, because Nanette was the one that blew up everywhere. But yeah, I do remember Douglas kind of was like the follow up maybe, or think so. I think so, yeah, yeah. Anyway,

Jen Hargrave 9:16

too fast on crip camp, yeah.

Jason Clymo 9:19

Sometimes it's like stealing from me when I play. I've got, like, my hand amazing. Well, congratulations to everyone for giving it your best shot, and then congratulations begrudgingly to staff.

Stephanie Dower 9:35

That really pains Jason to say

Jason Clymo 9:36

that. Yeah, well done.

Stephanie Dower 9:40

Okay, so now it's time for our favorite part of the show, show and talk. Both of our guests have each bought a piece of media along for us to watch and discuss. Each clip will show disability in the media or on screen, but you know, we'll find out whether it's positive representation or perhaps it might be a bit higher. Harmful and, you know, out of date. So nethra, we might start with you. What have you brought for discussion today, I have

Nethra Raman 10:07

brought the greatest showman. It is a musical film, I think, released about 2017 so about seven years ago, kind of talking about the story of PT Barnum, who was this showman, I think, in about the 1800s or so, and he put together this show of, I guess, the weird ones, the outcasts of that time. But yeah, I'm excited to share my thoughts about this

Stephanie Dower 10:36

film, amazing. All right. Well, I'm also keen to discuss this one, so let's take a look at the clip.

Speaker 1 10:47

You must be Gertrude Stratton, I'm looking for your son.

Speaker 2 10:51

I don't have a son. The

Speaker 1 10:53

hospital record says you do. Charles, right, age 22

Speaker 2 11:02

Charles, Charles

Speaker 1 11:20

PT Barnum, at your service, I am putting together a show, and I need a star. You want people to laugh at me? Well, I've been laughing anyway. Kids might as well get paid.

Speaker 1 11:42

I see a soldier, no a general, riding across the stage with a sword and a gun and and and the most beautiful uniform ever made. People will come from all over the world, and when they see him, they won't laugh,

Speaker 1 12:02

they'll sue salute.

Stephanie Dower 12:08

Okay, so the greatest showman starring one of my favorites, Hugh Jackman neithra, what is it about this film that sparked your interest in bringing it to us today? Yeah,

Nethra Raman 12:18

definitely. I think this is a very, very for me. It was a very interesting sort of prominent scene in the film, because it was like the first time, I think probably ever, because when I went to watch this film, I was very I was pretty small. It was like one of the first times I saw someone, another little person, on screen. And this scene, although I think they started off talking about how, how he would have felt, I guess, like that, people were going to laugh at him if he was going to be part of the show. And the way that Hugh Jackman's character tried to turn it around and showing or trying to, I guess, convince the character, the little person, that people would come around to respect him and salute him, although, although I think that could have just been in this particular scene to try and convince, to convince the other character. I think for me, that was that was pretty moving, because I felt like someone who looked similar to me in some aspects, was going to try and be respected as a person and not just made fun of, and not someone who was just going to be ridiculed like I saw myself like I said I saw I felt like I saw myself on screen, portrayed in a way that wasn't ridiculed as as people would let people with short stature have been in so many other films. Yeah,

Stephanie Dower 13:49

yeah. No, 100% Yeah. It's um, I have to say, I think I saw this film three times in the cinema. Yeah, everyone to a sing along version, which was like a religious experience. It was great. I love the music in it. But no, I think you're so right. I think this particular scene, I think obviously this is a fictional film of, yes, they use sort of real historical figures, but it's not a documentary. Unfortunately, this is probably not the way it went in real life, but I think from a story perspective, yeah, I agree. I think it's, you know, he's giving him an opportunity to, you know, stand on his own teeth, own two feet as well, and have his own independence. And I think he was giving that, you know, the other characters in the film were also being given that opportunity, which is something that, you know, we don't often see, you know, sort of giving people the spotlight. And, yeah, but, um, yeah, I know there's a lot of, there's a lot of discussion out there around like, you know, is this sort of ignoring the real realities of what this was back in the day. And I, I. Yeah. Again, I think, you know, it's important to keep in mind that this is a fictional version. It's not a documentary, yeah, but yeah. I mean, it's just yeah, I have fun,

Nethra Raman 15:10

yeah. I think building upon that for for something that is fictional, I think the way that they did it, in my opinion, was done really well because, like, as as a child, as someone who's younger and very impressionable, seeing something even if it's even if it's not actually what was, what happened, like 200 years ago, seeing something that was that is empowering, is really exciting and inspiring for younger people to watch more than, I guess, just like harping upon the harsh brutalities of how it actually happened,

Stephanie Dower 15:47

I agree. I think I sort of see this as a aspirational version of what it could have been like. Instead of rehashing, you know, what went so horribly wrong back in those days, you know, can we show a reimagining of, like, how it could have been, yeah, and how it could be, you know, moving forward. I think that's a really cool way to look at it, yeah, yeah. What about you guys? Did you have any thoughts on

Jason Clymo 16:10

it? There is a lot of discourse around this film, and, like, it's been happening the last seven years it came out. I know that when I first watched it, I wheeled out of the theater and I was like, I just feel conflicted because, like, yeah, part of you expects that we're not going to ignore history. But then at the same time, I feel like I always bang on about how I want films that just depict the way things should be as well. So and I know that we probably need a mix of both. And as we've been discussing this season, a lot like we need content that kind of covers off an array of different experiences of people with disability, whether they're actually fully inclusive, like shown to be fully included, or not. It's it's important to actually show what life really is like for people with disability as well, because we're not included.

Stephanie Dower 17:05

No, no, that's it. One thing I really want to know behind the scenes. So the character of Charles that we just saw in that clip, played by Sam Humphreys, I believe his name is, yeah, they, they changed his voice and his Yeah. And I've always been curious why they decided to do that. Do you have any insight into that? Or I

Nethra Raman 17:32

don't really have any insight into that, like, I I'm not too sure why they would have done that as well, because I know, like, like you said, he is actually taller, so I guess it may have just been to emphasize the difference. I That's the only way that I can think that they would have done that for and just to create more of that contrast. Because potentially, if he's a bit taller. It might, it might have blended too much with the rest of the characters. I, I that thing. I

Stephanie Dower 18:06

mean, I say he must have blown them away in his audition. Because, you know, we're like, we're gonna bring this guy on and we're going to, you know, make alterations to, you know, so that he's the one that fits this character. Like, yeah, he must have been invaluable to them. So yeah, for sure, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Jen Hargrave 18:23

I don't know. I must have been under a rock in 2017 so I first heard about this film from you very recently, and I went looking and reading all about it, and some of the things we've been saying about how it didn't match true history is seems to come up in the critique tour around race and Zendaya character in the film as well. So that's really interesting parallels there. But hearing you speak, I think, is a good reminder for everyone about those in first impressions we have when we're young, and how powerful they are. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Stephanie Dower 18:55

that's it. And I think it's also important, like everyone's gonna take something different from these films, like, if you have an issue with the film, you know, don't take away from others who get something really meaningful out of it. And I think we all have our own perceptions of it, so let's just all you know, if you enjoy it, great. If you don't enjoy it, you don't have to watch

Nethra Raman 19:15

it. Yeah, easy. Yeah, yeah,

Jason Clymo 19:17

absolutely. Well, on that note, I think we'll hand over to you now, Jen, to talk us through what you brought in.

Jen Hargrave 19:23

I'm so excited to share this. So this is a video clip by singer songwriter and many other things, including bookmaker writer Eliza hull. So this is called running underwater, and this is an amazing introduction to her, because first of all, you hear her voice that's got so much depth and emotion in it. One of my friends says it sounds like Kate Bush singing Stevie Nicks. I'm not sure, but I hear like so much depth and emotion in the voice. And then you see my favorite dancer of all time, who I've learned about through this clip, who's called Roya the destroyer. Does a lot of hip hop dancing, but in this film, her clip her dancing really matches the song. It's got a lot of strength and depth in it as well.

Jason Clymo 20:08

Brilliant. All right. Well, let's check it out. I

Speaker 3 20:18

remember when I was five to walk in a straight line.

Speaker 2 20:27

Growing up, always, always trying to feed, trying to be pretty thin to me, I'm not

Speaker 3 20:36

somebody who I

Speaker 3 20:50

got it

Speaker 2 21:00

show My bones for you to see.

Stephanie Dower 21:22

You so cool. Yeah, no. I mean, we're all big fans of Eliza hull on this show, but Jen what really, I guess, spoke to you with this clip,

Jen Hargrave 21:41

just watching it now, it's actually helping me get words for what I remember thinking subconsciously when I was seeing that because I grew up and my mum was a wheelchair user, and I've got low vision, so we weren't always moving in the way people expect bodies to move, and Seeing that represented on screen feels really powerful in combination with those vocals, it's amazing, and it motivated me to see Eliza. So I've seen her live quite a few times as well, and then seeing that on stage, accompanied with always lots of different instruments and really beautiful instrumentation. It's so amazing, and a place, a lot of people with disabilities come together in the community to come to the live shows, but also a lot of other people, because there'll be hundreds of people there, and they'll be looking up and going, Who are all these people? I don't know, all these people. They've come because they love music, and they're there enjoying the music, but also hearing messages about disability. And at the end of one really big, crowded gig, it had been amazing. And I was shocked, no one was looking at their phones. And I was like, I can't remember the time last time I was in a room full of people, yeah, no one was looking at their phones was probably 1999 I reckon I've just riveted. And then towards the end, Eliza said that she was feeling some pain that day, and you could feel like so much empathy in the room for people who felt chronic pain, having that validation, and then for their partners and friends and family that were there that were like, oh, okay, yeah, pain's a thing, and amazing singers can have that too.

Stephanie Dower 23:14

Yeah, that's the thing. I think it's just being open about that stuff and hearing other people experience that. It's like, oh, my god, we're not the only one. Like, you know, it's so it that's the power of representation. For me. That's just it gives you that feeling of belonging, accepting, understanding all of that. I think that's really powerful, yeah. And

Jason Clymo 23:37

it like builds up the understanding of people around you as well, like, as a whole community, I think we all need to learn to better understand each other's experiences and keep striving to do that.

Stephanie Dower 23:49

But also, like, how interesting is it to watch, like, that dance routine? Like, that's just the

Jason Clymo 23:55

upper body strength, yeah.

Stephanie Dower 23:58

And also, I think showing the power in her, like mobility aids, like with the crutches, like, again, I think on a previous episode or another episode, we were talking about how there's a lot of stigma around mobility aids, like wheelchairs and crutches and all that, seeing as a limiting thing. But I think that routine shows just how much power, and, you know, strength that, you know, using crutches like that. It's really cool and really interesting to watch.

Jen Hargrave 24:26

There's one other thing about Eliza, I have to say. And she did a performance once, and I'm gutted I miss this. She did a duet with Nether ah, amazing.

Nethra Raman 24:37

Cool. Eliza is incredible. Amazing. I think all that emotion that she was able to put through just through this small clip. It's literally just like that times 10 on stage and performing it there. It's just, it just is so much love and so much, I guess, that sense of like embracing. Think that that feeling and like empowerment in whoever's disability, like whatever abilities anyone has, it just feels it just feels so warm, which is really cool.

Stephanie Dower 25:14

I love that our women coming together.

Jason Clymo 25:19

Thank you so much for bringing in those two pieces of media. I know I loved watching them, analyzing them, and I hope everyone at home has loved watching them, or if they haven't watched them yet, go and watch them now and let us know what you think about the greatest showmen and Eliza Howell's brilliant video clip. But before we do wrap up, I'd love for all of us on the panel to give our friends at home some speedy suggestions. So these suggestions should be things about positive representation in the media about people with disability. Could be like a new app that you're using, a great book that you've read, or even just like a tip about like daily life for other people with disability. So we'll go around. We'll start with Netra,

Nethra Raman 26:01

yeah, of course. So one of one of my dear friends, is actually creating documentary at the moment encompassing, I guess, the lives of people with dwarfism like myself, different types of dwarfism, and their experiences at the World dwarf games, which occurred last year, and basically it's, it's coming out in a couple years, so not, not yet. But stay tuned for that, because he's, thus far I've seen what I've seen, he's done a great job in showing, I guess, the behind the scenes, pretty much of lives for people like myself, the good things and the bad things. So it should be very exciting. So yeah, stay tuned for that

Jason Clymo 26:43

brilliant. That sounds amazing. What about you, Jen,

Jen Hargrave 26:46

I am looking forward to something I feel like is coming up. So over the last 40 years, there's been this campaign to get transport accessible in Australia. Public transport is not fit for our public and people have been sustaining that campaign for decades, but I feel like the energy is starting to really bubble up again, and we're going to be seeing a lot in the media more about that.

Jason Clymo 27:10

Yeah, brilliant. I'm excited. Nice.

Stephanie Dower 27:13

He's hoping it actually, you know, yeah, does have those outcomes. We can catch the tram to

Jason Clymo 27:20

work really nice.

Stephanie Dower 27:23

All right. And Jason, how about you?

Jason Clymo 27:25

Well, mine is a bit different to sort of what we normally do. But I went to a concert at Northcote theater recently, and I was really, really happy with the accessibility of it all. Had, like, pretty much the best seats in the House, to be honest. So yeah, it was like, all standing room, but they had like, a nice, kind of comfy section for us.

Stephanie Dower 27:44

Cool, awesome. I love when I get to go to a concert, and they actually just have it all set up, ready to go.

Jason Clymo 27:51

Yeah, and it was really easy. I literally realized probably 20 minutes before I was leaving that it says, like, give us a call and let us know you're coming. And I was like, shit. I didn't do that thing that I was supposed to, and then I called them, and they're like, so fine, we've got it all set up. You'll be good. That's

Stephanie Dower 28:07

it. I dream of the day when we don't have to put the extra effort into calling ahead or giving people a heads up. You know, just, let's just be able to rock up like everyone else, and it'll just pan out exactly, yeah, one day, one day, one day, one day we can dream. What about you? What's your suggestion? So I'm gonna jump on the Eliza hole bandwagon today and promote a kids book come over to my house. It was actually the first book I ever bought my nephew, Freddie. And I went into the bookstore and was looking in the kids section, and I saw this wheelchair on the front cover. And I swear, if I go into any shops nowadays, whether it's like toys or like marketing material or anything like that, if I'm like wheelchair, I swear I'm like the dog, the dog in up being like squirrel. I'm like wheelchair. And I saw like a witch on the front and I was just like, oh my god, cool. What's this? I What's this? So I start reading it, and every page, or every like story is about a different type of disability. But it was so just like, oh, like, you know, me and my mom. Like, you know, we use this, and it's, yeah, a bit different to what you might have in your house, but like, this is how we do it, and it's just, so it was just a very smart way of introducing young people to different types of disabilities and just the way, you know, it plays out in day to day life. So definitely recommend for all kids out there come over to my house. Yeah, it's a good one.

Jason Clymo 29:36

Brilliant, awesome. All

Stephanie Dower 29:39

right. Well, I think that's it for today. Thank you, Jen and nathra, for being here and joining us today. So before we let you go, our audience might want to know where to find out more about yourselves and your work. So nathra, where can audiences go to find out more

Nethra Raman 29:56

about you? You can find me on Instagram and Tiktok. At. Nara Singh, so that's n, e, t, h, R, A, S, I N, G, s, but yeah, mainly on Instagram and tick tock, that's where I post all my content.

Stephanie Dower 30:09

Awesome. I'll definitely be checking that out. And Jen, how about you? You'll

Jen Hargrave 30:12

see a little generational shift, as they say. I'm on blue sky and LinkedIn, and I quit that thing that, whatever that

Stephanie Dower 30:21

was, Oh yeah, yeah.

Jen Hargrave 30:25

And yeah, I'm gonna have research and some articles for the ABC coming out over the next few months, which is

Stephanie Dower 30:32

exciting. Stay tuned to BBC for sure. Awesome. All right. Well, thank you everyone at home for watching. Thank you, Jason, as always, thank you, Steph and yeah, be sure to check us out on social Media, and until next time, have a good one. You