Reframed - Mandy McCracken and Luke King

Jason Clymo 00:07

Welcome to reframe the panel show that analyzes all things disability in media. I'm Jason Climo

Stephanie Dower 00:18

and I'm Stephanie Dower, and let's meet today's special guests. First up, we have Mandy McCracken, who is a public speaker, writer and disability advocate, and she also founded and is chair of get started disability support Australia, which supports anyone who is new to being disabled. Welcome to the show, Mandy. Thank you for having me.

Jason Clymo 00:38

Hi. Awesome. We also have Luke king here with us today. And Luke is a multi disciplinary Deaf artist who makes paper based art, portraiture, dance and performance. He's an advocate for Deaf artists and collaborates with organizations like art house, chunky move and creative Victoria. So thank you for joining us today, Luke. Yeah, thank you. Before we take a look at today's media. Let's take a bit of time to learn more about our two guests. So let's start with you. Mandy, did you have an interest in disability representation before you became disabled? All

Mandy McCracken 01:12

right, the easy answer is no, I didn't have any connection to the disability community before I became disabled, so I lost my hands and feet to sepsis when I was 39 and before that, I was very able bodied. I had opportunities galore. I just was a comfortable white, middle class woman in Australia and disability hadn't played a part in my conversations before. So no, I never really looked for disability in media because it really didn't reflect my life at the time. Now, of course, things changed, and anytime somebody is in the media who's disabled, it looks like, ooh, love it. Yeah, exciting. Yeah, absolutely. And

Stephanie Dower 01:58

now that you are part of the disability community, I feel like we need to have a welcome party with welcome party. You know, seeing disability representation on screen. How important is that to you and your experience now?

Mandy McCracken 02:14

Yeah, one of the real key things that I've been pushing since I'm now disabled, is that disability should just be part of the general community conversation, nothing special or different. This is my opinion. You know, we just, should just be part of the fabric. So to see it as every day is really important, and it's so important just for our kids, like I've got three young kids, and just to be able to see people doing stuff that is just regular, whatever their situation is, for them, it's really important. So we're

Stephanie Dower 02:50

going to come to you now, Luke, obviously, when we think of including the deaf community, we often think of hiring Auslan interpreters, but they're in very high demand, and I know that from experience when I've been trying to organize them for my own film projects. So are there any other ways that arts projects or arts communities can still support and include the deaf community if for some reason an Auslan interpreter is not available?

Luke King 03:21

So if I'm creating or if I'm leading, I need to break things down as to what I can achieve, where I need to work with others in that process. And so in expanding my practice or expanding the team, we can allocate duties to each other in a collaboration so, but if I want to work with people who don't sign, I have to plan ahead. And, you know, I can use other mechanisms for communication apps. There's an app Convo, which, you know, has an interpreter on call, so I can have meetings over the phone, you know. So it's like an interpreter on the screen emails, writing things down, but again, writing things down, you know, language in that sense, and English not being my first language is my it's my second language. So, you know, the person that I'm collaborating with or working with needs to adapt or accept the way that I express myself in written text. So, you know, an interpreter really does enable it to be more concise.

Stephanie Dower 04:39

Yeah, I think that's something that I personally have learned recently. You know how you know, given that spoken English is not your first language, and how that can impact through written communication as well, or have impacts and, yeah, something to keep in mind, I think we just assume that you. Know written form is going to be accessible to everyone, and that's not always the case. So yeah, that's a really good point. All right, now it's time to test our knowledge at the desk here with Get your head in the frame. We'll be asking our panel a series of multiple choice questions about disability in media. So can we everyone have their hands on their buzzers? Okay? Question one from the Oscar winning 2021, film, coda, what does the titular acronym stand for a child of Deaf Ambassador B, child of disabled adult and C, child of Deaf adult, oh, Mandy,

Mandy McCracken 05:44

child of disabled adult, am I wrong? That

Stephanie Dower 05:48

is incorrect. Luke,

Luke King 05:52

deaf adult, child of a deaf adult, correct?

Stephanie Dower 05:54

Yes, I was just too enthusiastic. Question two time for redemption. Mandy, it's okay, according to a report from the inevitable Foundation, Hollywood is leaving approximately how much money on the table each year by not having authentic and accurate disability representation. A, $125 million B, $125 billion and C, $125,000 Jason, I'm gonna guess 125 million incorrect. Mandy, billion correct, 120 $5 billion that is a lot. That is a lot. That's a lot of money Hollywood take notice just

Mandy McCracken 06:43

because they're not catering for the audience, I

Stephanie Dower 06:48

assume. So. I mean, if I see inaccurate disability representation, I tend to avoid going to see that piece of media. So I mean losing money here, so, yeah, unfortunately, yeah, get it right. All right, make the dough. Okay. Question number three actor, RJ MIDI is a spokesperson for the Screen Actors Guild for actors with disabilities. In which award winning television series did he play the son of the main protagonist? A, the sopranos B, hacks and C Breaking Bad. Jason Breaking

Jason Clymo 07:24

Bad, correct? Yeah, that was my redemption. That

Stephanie Dower 07:28

was your redemption. Yes, Jason needed a redemption. Yes. Next one. It's a very topical question. Hopefully you've seen it already. But question four in Wicked part one, the part of nessa Rose is played by actress Marissa bird. How many films had she appeared in before wicked? A, none. B1, or c2,

Luke King 07:51

Luke, zero, none.

Stephanie Dower 07:54

Correct. This was done that's our first film. What a massive film to be a part of, but also she is the first authentically, authentic wheelchair user to play the role of nessa rose in 21 years. So that's a bit sad, but good on the film for actually valuing authentic representation. All right. Well, that's all the questions. I think our winner today is Luke. Congratulations, well done, unfortunately. A lot of fun. No trophy, unfortunately, but just the satisfaction of beating. Well, particularly Jason, free coffee. We can organize a free coffee, I'm sure, yes. And I think that's cookies. Oh, cookies. If I hadn't known,

Mandy McCracken 08:40

I would have tried that.

Jason Clymo 08:43

Now it's time for show and talk. Both of our guests have brought a piece of media along for us to discuss. Each piece of media is representation of disability on screen, but will it be a positive representation or potentially outdated and harmful representation? That's what we're going to be discussing. So Mandy, what have you brought in for us today? So

Mandy McCracken 09:03

I found a film recently called Intouchables. It's from 2011 it's French, and I really enjoyed it. Sat with the kids and watched it, and yeah, it's it's a brilliant show of the importance of a relationship between a carer and a person with disability, and I use the word carer, I should say Disability Support Worker. That's, that's the professional term, and how, you know, bringing that vibrant relationship, can it be a make or break for somebody's life experience? Yeah,

Jason Clymo 09:38

cool. I'm really interested to hear what you thought about this, Steph, because I have thoughts on it. Okay, interesting, yeah. Well, obviously thoughts on it. That's what we're here for. But I don't use support workers regularly, but obviously you do, all right.

Stephanie Dower 09:53

Well, let's take a look at the clip. You.

Speaker 2 10:28

Orthodox I Some faces. Who pull Philly said, Yeah, Said,

Stephanie Dower 11:53

Okay, interesting clip to show it

Mandy McCracken 11:56

is, that's a great there's a lot in that little segment. You know, it's everything from the laughter that you can have with a support worker through to like, it even shows the fact that he's really quite physically stuck and he has to wait until his support workers go and do what, what he needs them to do. So it does give you a lot of you know stuff to think about, yeah. And for me, you know, support workers. I have support workers that come and go. I've had some doozies over the years. Yeah, I've had some absolutely brilliant people that just throw my disability out the window. It just doesn't come into the conversation at all. And, you know, you just crack on with life and have fun together, which I think this film really highlights,

Stephanie Dower 12:41

yeah, I think what I love about so I saw this film when it came out in cinemas in 2011 so it's going back a little while now. And what I think I really appreciated about it was it wasn't showing someone with a disability in a clinical setting, and it also wasn't necessarily someone who had just become disabled as well, like you saw them, kind of, they were already into their life. They had their you know, he's a very powerful man. He's very rich man, you know, you know. So it was really interesting to see that character, which I don't think we had seen much on on screen before that. And, yeah, you're right. Like, you know, when you have someone like a support worker, sort of day in, day out, you know, in really the more intimate moments of your life as well, you do have to have that fun, and you do have to have that, that friendship established there, otherwise it would just drain you so much so, like, I'm really lucky. I have a team of a number of support workers in my life now. And we're, I think we're, you know, sort of support worker, client first, but very quickly below that is friends. Because, yeah, they if you don't get along on a social level, yeah, it's just not going to work very well. So I think the only issue I probably have with the film, of course, not authentic representation, and I think that's probably going to come up a lot in Yeah, today's discussion, yeah, it was back in 2011

Mandy McCracken 14:17

like, Was this something that we all did back then, or is this so data that I think we forgive them?

Stephanie Dower 14:24

I'm Yeah, and that's the thing you know. It's don't forget. Don't forget exactly. I think that's it. It's something that you know. I'm sad to say that 2011 like it's a product of its time. I'm sad to say that about 2011 because it doesn't feel like that long ago, 2011 was probably just before the conversations around authenticity really started to come out of the woodwork and the importance of that. So can

Mandy McCracken 14:50

I ask a question? Yeah, this film, I know you guys have already talked about you before me. Oh, me before you, before you. Whatever that is. Yes, it would be me before. You. Where do you see this film fit with that narrative? Like I know, Jason, you hated that me before you,

Jason Clymo 15:09

because it's absolute trash,

Mandy McCracken 15:13

like this. This, the main thing the conversation with this film is he says, I don't want pity. I don't want your pity. So you know, the fact that he's become disabled through an accident really doesn't come into the conversation at all.

Stephanie Dower 15:28

That's the difference for me, with me before you, versus the untouchables me before you. Harps on the negative experience of becoming disabled. Obviously, as we were saying before, there's a journey in that, in that experience, but we've seen the negative side of that time and time again, whereas with The Intouchables, we get to see someone who's already kind of established their life. They know what their life is, and they're not wanting to die. They still see the value in life, and they can still have fun, and they can still have, you know, go out on dates, you know, like it's just, it's a very different sort of focus, I guess, you know, similar experiences, but a very different sort of part of their experience to focus on

Mandy McCracken 16:18

one thing with that clip. He says, you know, a swift cut will do me, will finish me off. So the conversation about, you know, questioning your value of life and whether you want to keep going is still just below the surface. It

Stephanie Dower 16:33

is just below the surface. And I think, you know, and also, as you said, like the vulnerability that he has now, you know, this rich, powerful man now having to rely on, you know, another man to do things for him. I'm sure that's always just under the surface, you know, those thoughts. But again, it's not the main focus of the film. And I think whereas me before, you, that was the main, I guess, driver, of the film. So, yeah, also on,

Jason Clymo 17:01

like, the comparison to me before you, because it's funny that you brought it up, because that's literally how I wrote all my notes about this one was comparing it to me before you, which everybody knows that I hate so much. But anyway, in Me Before You has no choice, no agency, over who I guess his support worker is going to be, and there's a purpose behind that, obviously, in that film's plot. But in this one, he does, and I found that really interesting for them to sort of show that in this film, do think also, when people are creating this kind of content, they need to be careful and be mindful of what's the purpose of it, who does this serve, and what's the potential cost benefit afterwards? Because for me, why I hate me before you so much is that it serves fucking no one, and it doesn't actually for people watching it, yeah, well, we'll have to agree to

Mandy McCracken 17:53

disagree. Agree. For me, fresher in hospital with my amputations, just done, Paralympics were on the screen. And it is, for me, the Paralympics is so far up the food chain in where I was at the time, and I found that incredibly confronting, yep, and I was desperate for the conversation around where I was with the, you know, the mental journey that you get there.

Stephanie Dower 18:19

But that's what we need the variety. That's what I'm saying. We need the variety. If we only see this or the Paralympic journey, there are so many varied experiences in the middle, and that's what we need more of to create a more well rounded understanding of what having disability is. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Luke, over to you now. So what have you brought to the table for us today? Okay,

Luke King 18:44

so, so it's an indie film. The director is hard of hearing person, and they wanted to produce a film that was sort of a narrative style doco, and it's a symbol or metaphor of the entire film is on a person's journey through a world with sound and without sound.

Jason Clymo 19:12

Brilliant. All right, we've got the trailer here, so let's take a look. You

Speaker 2 20:40

are unbelievable. I

Stephanie Dower 20:49

also just want to clarify, Luke, because we see signing in the film, is that in ASL, American Sign Language? Yes, it is. That's right, yeah. American Sign Language, yeah. So is that? Are you able to read those signs or understand them? Yeah,

Luke King 21:04

yeah. Because ASL is, I guess, commonly used sign language globally through, I guess, military occupation or colonization, missionary occupation or colonization. So Hollywood in representation. So there's an Americanization of, you know, of an influence, you know, in fashion, and you know what we see. So I can't sign ASL fluently, but I can read the alphabet.

Stephanie Dower 21:36

Okay, that's really interesting, yeah, because I've always wondered, and I think a lot of people just assume that when you see sign language on TV or in film or wherever, that if you are an Auslan, you know, sign up, then you just be able to understand it. But that's not always the case, is

Luke King 21:52

it? Yeah, you're right. There's an assumption that sign language is universal, yeah, which it isn't, you know, like spoken languages globally, right? Yeah. But funny enough, just what you were saying before about the previous film, like disability representation, yeah, it's that they're not real or acting like it's like with the deaf person. You can see whether that's a deaf actor or not, it's really obvious, yeah, how you know they look their facial expressions, just the little, little, little idiosyncrasies that they have, you can tell their fluency, yeah, yeah, yeah, things like

Stephanie Dower 22:31

that. No, 100% audiences are smart. I think filmmakers need to be very aware of that we know, and clearly, from our multiple choice questions, we know that we're missing out on a huge market if we don't address that and authentically cast and have authenticity behind the scenes. So yeah, I was

Jason Clymo 22:53

just gonna ask you, Luke, like, why, why you chose this film and what you liked the most about it?

Luke King 23:04

So the feature itself is good, yeah, but I'm just really interested in how they, you know, considered everything that elements, the text, the description of sound, the words, the signs like so for people who are vision impaired or blind, how, you know, describing a color to a blind person is like impossible, right? And so for a person who can hear, describing a sound to a deaf person, like it's meaningless, but, but if you include facial expressions, vibrations, physical expression, you can start to get it. But those words, the text. It's really literal. And so the text maybe, you know, could change. Maybe could change the font, the color, the movement of the font, the way that the font sits on the screen. You know, anything is possible. But how, I guess, you know, we can push the boundaries of how we provide information on a screen. Yeah. Yeah, but again, you know,

Mandy McCracken 24:02

so what is the value of you seeing, you know, described that we can see helicopter blades pulsing like you've never heard that. So why? Why does it make the experience better for you,

Luke King 24:18

right? Yeah, it's great, right? Because when you watch that, you feel the vibe. Do you felt the vibrations? Yeah. So when a helicopter is flying overhead, you can, I can feel the vibrations, and so you can see it vibrating, so you can connect to that if, if it's vibrating, if it's not. So, you know, if I'm out, you know, having an experience, you know, in the wild world, you know, experiencing feelings of whatever you know, encapsulating those experiences to what watching on screen. So what I've learned can then translate to what I experience through text. So it's based on your personal experiences. So some of those things are described. I don't have the. Experience of but it's interesting to consider, you know, did you know the most popular, you know, like most popular TV streams like binge or Netflix or Disney plus or whatever, they use AI to generate their captions, and then they're done, right? So they never, at all describe background sounds, right? So someone knocking at the door, or a phone ringing, or whatever is going on, so that detail is becoming less and less, which is really disappointing. So that's like a refresh, right? That we need to consider that, yeah, but in the deaf community, you know, half the community don't really care for that, or they don't like it because it's just too much noise, too much information, right? But I love it. But would I watch that every day and that much information every day? I don't know, right? I

Mandy McCracken 25:51

so this isn't best practice for you,

Luke King 25:58

every day, every day, I'm torn to be honest, because, you know, as an artist, I love conceptualization, seeing information, learning, so looking at that every day, yeah, I mean, I'm watching, I enjoy watching TV shows, but watching it in that much detail every day, it might be a bit distracting, you know,

Stephanie Dower 26:18

but I think what you were saying before is really interesting. You know, it's kind of asking like, who is the film made for? You know, Who is the intended audience? Is it people from the deaf community, or is it I loved what you said before, how the film creates that uncomfortableness for those who are hearing watching it where? And, you know, we have to sit in that, whereas that's sort of an uncomfortableness that people in deaf community sit in every day. So I think it's, I think for me, the film is just, it's an experience more than anything. It's not something that you're going to binge watch over and over again, but it's an experience.

Luke King 27:00

Yeah, that's it, yeah. It's beautifully said when you say, you know, sitting in that uncomfortability within yourself, yeah, like for people who are deaf, that uncomfortability is an experience, an everyday experience, it becomes normalized, right? But when you're sitting in a cinema and you're having that experience which is new, and you're having that experience again. I guess you need to put, you know, put that bias aside, experience it, and then learn from that. And I think it brings up really healthy discussions, you know, in how the elements are used, whether it's right or wrong, it's in, it's about pushing, you know, broader audiences to, you know, consider how much information we're provided.

Stephanie Dower 27:43

And again, it's a different perspective that we're not used to seeing. Yeah, I love it. It's yeah. Thank you for bringing that to our attention. All right. Well, thank you both for bringing such awesome pieces of media to discuss today. We could talk about them for a long time to come, good days and days, but we do have to end this at some point. But before we leave you, we'd love to give everyone at home watching some speedy suggestions. We're going to go around to each person on the panel, and we're going to suggest something that in the media or in your day to day lives, that represents disability in a positive light. So Mindy, we might start with you. Yeah, I went and saw

Mandy McCracken 28:28

the theater play cost of living just recently, which I know has gone around the country, and I loved it. It was the most amazing vulnerability of disabled actors on stage, even to the point that there was a shower scene where the actor and their disability support worker did a full shower on stage, water and everything, and it was like, wow. And I just loved it, because the audience were all very comfortable, able bodied people. And I thought, This is my life on a plate up there on screen. And I thought it was absolutely magic. 100%

Stephanie Dower 29:09

I got the chance to see it in Brisbane recently, up at Queensland theater. And, yeah, same thing. I thought it was quite the insight into those two experiences that they were following. So, yeah, if you get a chance, everyone at home, if it's playing in your area, go see cost of living on stage. Yeah, weather and

Mandy McCracken 29:31

then Jason, we can have days of discussing that as well. I think

Jason Clymo 29:35

we could, yes, yeah, yep, yeah.

Stephanie Dower 29:37

I see a future podcast in the

Jason Clymo 29:38

making of what's the purpose? I think that. I think that's yeah.

Mandy McCracken 29:41

I think opening the eyes to the general public on what life's like for people,

Stephanie Dower 29:45

letting you know, giving them a sneak peek, right? Yeah, for sure, yeah.

Jason Clymo 29:49

My speedy suggestion is that I'm still obsessed with wicked part one. If you haven't seen it yet, do yourself a favor and do see that. I couldn't help but sit there. And start analyzing it with my reframed hat on. Basically,

Stephanie Dower 30:05

I think, I think everyone went into that movie ready to be because we know that the storyline that deals with the wheelchair user in Wicked is not always the most positive. I think everyone went into seeing this movie for the first time, a bit like backs up, ready to go. And I think we were all quite, I don't know, pleasantly surprised by it, or just, yeah, more context. What happens in part two coming soon? It's a musical, isn't

Mandy McCracken 30:34

it? It is a music, love a musical. Love a music, love a musical. Bingo, we love

Stephanie Dower 30:39

musicals on this show, what's yours? Steph, mine is not a piece of media. I'm actually going to highlight an experience I had recently at ability fest. It was the first, my first time going to ability fest up in Brisbane, and I loved my experience there. It was so easy. I felt free. Everyone was there to have a good time, both people with disabilities, non disabled people, it was just the festival experience I wish I was able to have when I was a teenager or in my early 20s. You know, which so many people get afforded that opportunity. So I was glad that I was able to recapture my youth a little bit and just just have a really Yeah, just exciting fun day with friends and yeah, I think watching, seeing what they were able to do with that event, it wouldn't take much for other festivals to do similar things. So if that could be used as, like a like a future plan for other festivals, I think that would be incredible and create that bringing experience in more places. So

Jason Clymo 31:55

yeah, nailed it. Awesome.

Stephanie Dower 31:57

And then finally, Luke, do you have anything you want to share.

Luke King 32:01

Yeah, yeah, I do. I was pretty excited to, you know, I guess forecasting, you know, some events that are coming up, and the mid summer festival, you know, they have a new program, and that's also the launch of the program was, and it was amazing. They have a lot of disability inclusion in their festival and performances and in comedy shows, yeah. So it's broadening inclusion. And so there's a there's a queer imaging part of the festival, and it's really has broad representation. So it's next year, and there are two deaf shows, collaborate, collaborative collaborative pieces at arse house in North Melbourne that are coming up next year. So yeah, keep your eyes open and your ears open for that. I

Stephanie Dower 32:50

think we're always on the lookout for more disability representation in all art forms. So yeah, great suggestion. Thanks, Luke.

Jason Clymo 32:57

All right. Well, that's pretty much all we've got time for in this episode. So thank you so much to everyone for watching reframed. Thank you to Steph for being my amazing co host, and thank you so much Mandy and Luke for coming in and being our guests in this episode. And

Stephanie Dower 33:11

Mandy, if audiences want to find out more about you and your work, where can they go to find more information?

Mandy McCracken 33:16

Yeah, go to our website. Get Started disability.org.au, and you can always shoot me a message. And, yeah, come join the party. Awesome. Sounds

Jason Clymo 33:25

good, brilliant. And Luke, what about yourself?

Luke King 33:29

Yeah, so my website has, you know, I've been delaying it, to be honest, for seven years, so I'm terrible, yeah, so check out my Instagram, and it's my full name. Yeah, check it out.

Jason Clymo 33:39

Thanks for watching, and be sure to Check us out on social media.