Reframed - Sam Drummond and Sara Shams

Jason Clymo 0:04

Jason, welcome to reframed the panel show that analyzes all things disability in media. My

Jason Clymo 0:16

name is Jason Climo, and I am one of your co hosts. I'm a young queer person with disability who has dabbled in some acting and modeling, and I'm also a business owner. I'm fiercely passionate about the accurate representation of people with disability on screen,

Stephanie Dower 0:30

and I'm Stephanie Dower. I'm a filmmaker, I'm an access coordinator, and I'm also a keen traveler, but I'm really excited to talk all things disability on screen today with our panel of guests. So let's meet who we've got with us today. Sara is a proud disabled woman of color. She is an experienced speaker, model, creator, actor and disability activist. Welcome Sara. Thank you so much. Welcome

Jason Clymo 0:53

Sara. We've also been joined today by Sam Drummond. Sam is a parent, lawyer, writer and disability activist. He specializes in discrimination and human rights law, and recently released his memoir broke when Sam is not parenting, writing or working, he can be found swimming laps of Melbourne's outdoor pools, tending to his native garden, or discovering parts of the world he didn't get to experience as a kid. We're both so excited to welcome you on and we can't wait to get stuck into analyzing some disability on screen.

Stephanie Dower 1:28

All right, now it's time for our first segment. Get your head in the frame. So what we'll do is, I'll be reading out three questions, all multiple choice, and if you want to buzz in, just raise your hand and say your name, and first one to the post gets to answer. The prize today is satisfaction. So All right, first question everyone currently, what percentage of free to air commercial TV stations must run local Australian content between 6am and midnight? A, 60% B, 55% or C, 20% I'll go B, Sarah, 65% you are correct. Oh, well done. C, sorry, in for the win. I love that. It's getting sassier. Okay. Question number two, what genre of TV in the UK has the biggest representation of disabled people in media, a, children's TV, B, comedy, C, current affairs. Oh, I think Jason just got it. Is it children's TV? Yes, it is, thankfully. And as

Jason Clymo 2:33

part of that, Australia's own Karuna stammel from Play School, I want to check out the research, but I know she went on to it for some other in the UK, yeah, as well. Yeah,

Stephanie Dower 2:51

someone's got to go on to other things. Representation needs to be everywhere. That's right, exactly. Yeah,

Jason Clymo 3:02

yeah. Children's TV is always leading the way

Stephanie Dower 3:05

it is, especially nowadays, I feel like it's taken a while, but

Jason Clymo 3:10

always, always, like also includes like

Stephanie Dower 3:15

animations as well. That's true. That's true. Yeah,

Jason Clymo 3:19

good point. But also, kids are more able to accept that's true outside Yes, what you usually see they haven't been inundated with 50 years of the same. Yeah.

Stephanie Dower 3:33

Ways, yes, yeah. Okay. Last question, 62% of internet users in the US use which media platform daily? A, free to air. TV, okay. B, YouTube, C, Spotify, Buzz, Sam, YouTube, correct, yeah, yes, it was between YouTube and Spotify, yeah,

Jason Clymo 3:56

Spotify, but Spotify costs. It

Stephanie Dower 4:00

does. Yes, YouTube's a bit more cheap, all right. Well, that was get your head in the frame. Well done. Everyone amazing. Yeah, I know. Breaker. We're all about diversity here. Everyone gets a point, right? Yeah, now we're moving on to show and talk. So this is where we're going to watch a piece of media that each of our guests have brought in with uh, with them today, and then we'll have a bit of a discussion about perhaps what's uh, good disability representation and what maybe could be improved on. So let's watch the first clip.

Speaker 1 4:35

She's the queen bee, a star. Those are the two. Are just her little workers. Regina, George, how do I even begin to explain Regina George? Regina George is flawless.

Speaker 2 4:45

She has two Fendi purses and a silver Lexus. I hear her hair is insured for $10,000 I hear she does car commercials in Japan. Her favorite movie is varsity blues.

Speaker 3 4:55

One time she met John Stamos on a plane and he told her she was pretty. One time she punched me in this. Nice. It was awesome.

Stephanie Dower 5:03

Okay, so for anyone who doesn't know this is Mean Girls, the OG Mean Girls. Sarah, I believe you brought this to the table

Jason Clymo 5:11

before you like, go. I just want to say, like, this is so amazing that you've chosen this. It's probably one of the most important things that anyone has ever done on this show for the queer community in the entirety of anything so like I just,

Stephanie Dower 5:25

just for anyone who loves a good one liner as well. Perfect choice. Yes,

Sara Shams 5:29

means a lot. Thank you. No. It was honestly, when I was sent that question, I thought, oh my goodness, what am I going to go with? Because then I looked through all the different podcasts and the episodes that you had, and I thought, I wonder if this has been done yet or

Jason Clymo 5:41

not, and I'm ashamed of myself that I

Sara Shams 5:45

haven't I was like, I really hope no one's discussed this movie already. But you know, honestly, growing up in mean, it was 2004 when it was first released, 20 years ago, 20 years ago, which is wild. When it was first released, it was something that I grew up with. I was still in high school, and it was something that I, you know, when I first watched it, I thought, actually quite interesting. There's actually people with disability in this movie, even it's just fleeting moments, but they were still there. And, you know, we'll go, we'll talk about the negative aspects of the movie, because there are plenty, but at least that this component of the representation, for me was almost it was just normalized. They were just one of the kids at the school. It wasn't about their disability. It was just Regina. George, yeah, so for me, that was quite interesting, and it was a movie that really shaped high school growing up. And to have that representation, at least there at the time, was a big thing for you, but there was a really tiny aspect of the movie, at least it was there. Yes, so that's why. And also, I just love the movie when

Jason Clymo 6:51

you say it shaped High School. I was in high school at the time as well. Yes, but isn't it just a reflection of what high school is?

Sara Shams 6:58

Oh, absolutely, and all the bad parts of it as well. But, and I guess a part of that is a bit sad, because for me, at least, there was representation of disability in it, because everything else there was all the other movies at the time, and even, interestingly enough, there's been a 2024, remake of Mean Girls, but the end, which is really quite inclusive with all the other things, but not disability. So disability is just completely

Stephanie Dower 7:23

glossed over. Absolutely bizarre that the new one has just erased disability completely, completely and like, again, like, as you were saying, like, you know, as much as like, you know, it's not necessarily perfect representation back into but at least it was there. At least they were seen in the fabric of the school community. So yeah,

Jason Clymo 7:44

give a bit of context about the character that we're talking about.

Stephanie Dower 7:49

I mean, is there much context there?

Jason Clymo 7:51

Honestly, there's minimal context that is

Sara Shams 7:53

available for the there's basically two characters, yeah, one is in a wheelchair, yeah, and one person is of short stature, and I think that's one scene with the one that we just watched. And then the next scene, I believe, is a trustful scene. And I can't remember the line, but basically they're having a trustful scene where they're bonding with the other students and

Jason Clymo 8:15

wheelchair using the one that says, like, You're not fat. Oh, you're not. I don't hate you because you're fat.

Sara Shams 8:20

You're fat because I hate you. Yes, she's the one that says that, and then she trust falls backwards in your wheelchair, crashes. Yeah. So that's really, that's the only character building,

Jason Clymo 8:30

yes. How the fuck did they get her up there?

Stephanie Dower 8:33

You know, that's, that's something that is a ramp. We don't know. We don't know. But that's something I always hate. I think we've talked about this on a previous episode. Is when people, particularly wheelchair users, magically get, like, you know, they approach this building, and all it seems like is stairs to get inside, and then magically inside, or up, like five levels. I'm like, How did you do that?

Jason Clymo 8:53

Yeah,

Sara Shams 8:56

that I want, yeah,

Jason Clymo 8:58

I mean, I agree. Like, it's, it's kind of amazing that there was disability representation. I think, on the other hand, it's like, so small Regina uses the R word multiple,

Sara Shams 9:12

yeah, and all that are negative, obviously, yeah, definitely

Stephanie Dower 9:16

not a cool thing to

Jason Clymo 9:18

say. Yeah. It's used intended as an insult.

Stephanie Dower 9:20

Also, I don't know. Does anyone know if the person like playing the wheelchair user? Did they actually use a wheelchair in real life? I don't

Jason Clymo 9:30

know. Actually, I'm not sure, no, but from memory, I feel like the wheelchair is like, so not the type of chair that you will actually be going to school in. It's like, this hospital, yeah? Like, it's so clunky.

Sara Shams 9:44

A higher which would make me think that she's probably not an actor that is in a wheelchair,

Jason Clymo 9:48

because I'd be like, you're not fucking putting me in that thing. Yeah,

Sara Shams 9:52

exactly. And another aspect of the film that I realized was quite insulting, slash. Negative for people with disability is when Regina gets hit by a bus and she has to wear that brace, yes, yeah. And then all of a sudden, disability is almost cool, because she everyone else wants to be Regina, yes. And so previously she was this cool, popular white blonde girl, yeah. And then she gets hit by a bus, has to wear a brace, but she looks she's rocking it. Yeah,

Stephanie Dower 10:21

she was pretty cool, doesn't the wheelchair user, she puts a brace on, I think at the end as well, like to be cool, like Regina. I think could be wrong, but yeah, probably true. Yeah. I think the other issue that I have with the disability representation is the wheelchair user and the personal short session. They're friends with each other, yeah? And they're always seen together. And, like, Wouldn't it have been amazing if, like, one of them was in the art group, one of them was in the music group, one of them was in the job group, like, just to spread it out a little bit,

Sara Shams 10:51

yeah? And also, in the lunch room, they're grouped as the wannabe table, yeah? Like, you know, wanna be normal, wanna be this wannabe. Wanna be like, yeah, it

Jason Clymo 11:00

but, I mean, I'm glad they didn't make like,

Stephanie Dower 11:02

the table, yeah, the special needs, the special

Jason Clymo 11:06

needs table, yeah, imagine, yeah. Oh my god,

Stephanie Dower 11:10

yeah. Not great. Not great, yeah.

Jason Clymo 11:12

Anyway, I feel like Mean Girls is a very I'll be a Mean Girls loyalist to the day I die. Oh yes. I'm like, and that's love the movie.

Stephanie Dower 11:19

We can enjoy these things. But also, you know, we know that not everything is going to be perfect with these. Yes,

Jason Clymo 11:26

you can enjoy something, but still call it out. Yeah, I

Stephanie Dower 11:30

think what I'm sorely disappointed by is that they didn't do any better 20 years later, that is it went backwards. Astounding to me.

Sara Shams 11:39

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. All right,

Stephanie Dower 11:43

yeah. All right. Me, the third remake of Mean Girls is going to be all disability, nothing else.

Sara Shams 11:48

You guys probably should have a start thinking about that.

Stephanie Dower 11:52

Yeah, I think we should. Any investors out there want to, you know, bring money to the table, yeah, perfect. All right, well, now we might move on to Sam's piece of Media. Let's roll the clip.

Unknown Speaker 12:12

We represent the lollipop.

Unknown Speaker 12:17

Yeah, your name,

Stephanie Dower 12:31

okay, The Wizard of Oz.

Jason Clymo 12:33

So this is 1939 America. The rest of the world's at war, and America is sort of pretending that it's never going to happen, and they're producing these classic films like The 1940 Oscars was dominated by Gone with the Wind, but also dotted with the Wizard of Oz. And it's very early filmmaking. It's a big moment where she steps out into Oz in this color, but it's also in the context of of Nazi Germany as well. And there's 124 munchkins, and many of them have come have fled from Europe because they were at risk of being killed, because they weren't the perfect being, and it's not a lot. We don't often talk about disability in the Second World War in the context of genocide, but yeah, but that's the context that the mansions came to be. Yeah, yeah. And so a lot of them couldn't even speak English and were dubbed over by Americans because they didn't wanted a German accent, or they wanted someone to speak speak English in the film. And they've they've come up, they've been essentially rounded up and weren't making a living. It comes from a long history of people of short started people not being able to make a living and traveling around in circuses as the only means of doing that. Yeah, and so as a representation, it's not great, because that is one of the first films I ever see. I ever saw and and for a lot of people, it is, I don't think it's as problematic as films after that, particularly in the context of being made in 1939 in the wake of though, that history of it, I don't think it's the worst out there, but those stories that came out of it have followed people for the decades to come, And so they were locked up in a hotel and ferried in a bus to and from the studio and then given alcohol at the hotel. They were paid $50 a week, which is about $900 a week these days. Would you have some context as to how much the dog. Was paid, so it's about half of what Toto was paid.

Stephanie Dower 15:03

That just blew my mind when you said, I was like, are you okay?

Jason Clymo 15:10

So that's how much they're valuing these characters. They weeded out what they referred to as achondroplasic, achondroplastic midgets, and they use the term frequently, so they wanted them to be proportional. And child,

Stephanie Dower 15:27

I did wonder about that, because, yeah, typically achondroplasia is what you would see most. Is that? Right? That's the most common form. Yes, yeah. And I, you know, was looking at this clip again. I was like, Yeah, you don't see that, which is really interesting, yeah, yes.

Jason Clymo 15:42

And they one thing that you might have noticed as well as they also weeded out the people of color. So there was a dancer, an African American dancer, who was just by, like out and out, the best dancer of any of them. And they pushed him away, and he ended up living a horrible life after that, and because they wanted white people in this fantasy land. And what we saw after the Wizard of Oz was Julie garland, who played Dorothy, came out and said on a talk show, a talk show, that they're all drunk. They they had to be rounded up with butterfly necks at the end

Stephanie Dower 16:20

of the night. Judy Garland's not one to talk about that,

Jason Clymo 16:23

exactly, but she's, she's allowed to, because she's able bodies and she's human, yeah. But suddenly, this idea of these people who are locked up in a hotel with booze for months at a time, what are you going to do? And there are a few problematic ones, but of course, they were going to be there's always problematic people, yeah, exactly. Yeah. There's always a few. And so once, once, Judy Garland said that, then they've been story after story of making this myth of what the Munchkins got up to in 1938 during the filming. And one of them later said, it's five minutes of entertainment for you, but it's dynamite for the rest of our lives. Yeah, and I think that's right, of any portrayal that's problematic, of any disability, but particularly dwarfism, is that it follows us down the street with calls of midget, or it might be like filming or whatever, anything is a very good example of that. It's like, you know, it's very easy, light humor, poking fun for non disabled people watching, or, you know, possibly even myself watching, like, I could easily take it that way, but for you, like that would follow you. Yeah,

Stephanie Dower 17:28

I think the one little not saving grace terms of representation, but more behind the scenes, like, as you were saying, like this was, like, probably one of the first times that people of short stature got to see other people with short stature and actually have that like environment around them, and that community, which I think is probably the only saving grace to that entire story,

Jason Clymo 17:50

and actually the what's now, the Little People of America. It started. Organizations started from this film, because people from all over the country, in different countries, from around the world got together and said, there are other people like, yeah, yeah. Let's organize, yeah. And that's a really powerful thing.

Stephanie Dower 18:09

One good legacy out of

Jason Clymo 18:12

and now it's time for ads askew, where we will be checking out a TV ad for the first time. It's a surprise for all of us on the panel and just be really giving you our live reactions to work out if this ad has gone askew in terms of disability representation or if it has nailed it. So let's roll the ad

Stephanie Dower 18:36

already on my car. Oh, not feeling good about this.

Speaker 4 18:38

I am autism. I'm visible in your children, but if I can help it, I am invisible to you until it's too late. I know where you live and guess what? I live there too. I hover around all of you I know. No color barrier, no religion, no morality, no currency. I speak your language fluently, and with every voice I take away, I acquire yet another language I work very quickly. I work faster than Pediatric AIDS, cancer and diabetes combined. And if you are happily married, I will make sure that your marriage fails. Your money will fall into my hands and I will bankrupt you for my own self gain. I don't sleep, so I make sure you don't either. I will make it virtually impossible for your family to easily attend the temple, a birthday party, a public park without a struggle, without embarrassment, without pain. You have no cure for me. Your scientists don't have the resources, and I relish their desperation. Your neighbors are happier to pretend that I don't exist, of course, until it's their child. I am autism. I have no interest in right or wrong. I derive great pleasure out of your loneliness. I will fight to take away your hope. I will plot to rob you of your children and your dreams. I will make sure. Every day you wake up, you will cry, wondering who will take care of my child after I die. And the truth is I am still winning, and you are scared, and you should be I am autism. You ignored me. That was a mistake.

Unknown Speaker 20:20

And to autism, I say I am a father, a mother,

Unknown Speaker 20:23

a grandparent,

Speaker 5 20:23

brother, we will spend every waking hour trying to weaken you. We don't need sleep because we will not rest until you do. Family can be much stronger than autism ever anticipated, and we will not be intimidated by you, nor will the love and strength of my community. I am a parent riding towards you, and you can push me off this horse time and time again, but I will get up, climb back on and ride on with the message, autism,

Speaker 6 20:50

you forget who we are. You forget who you are dealing with. You forget the spirit of mothers and daughters and fathers and sons.

Speaker 5 20:58

We are the United States, Russia, European Union. We are coming together in all climates. We call on all faiths. We search with technology and voodoo, prayer and herb genetic studies and a growing awareness you never anticipated. We have had challenges, but we are the best when overcoming them, we speak the only language that matters. Love for our children, our capacity to love is greater than your capacity to overwhelm autism is naive. You are alone. We are a community of warriors. We have a voice. You think because some of our children cannot speak, we cannot hear them, that is autism weakness. You

Speaker 6 21:40

think that because my child lives behind a wall, I am afraid to knock it down with my bare hands,

Speaker 5 21:46

you have not properly been introduced to this community of parents and grandparents,

Unknown Speaker 21:55

pediatricians and

Speaker 5 21:56

scientists autism, if you are not scared, you should be when you came for my child, you forgot

Unknown Speaker 22:05

autism. Are you listening?

Jason Clymo 22:15

That was a journey, by the way, like horror movie like taken vibes at the start and then to like,

Sara Shams 22:26

I'm still gathering

Jason Clymo 22:28

love and family will defeat autism, like I'm just

Sara Shams 22:31

what? And also sorry the date at the bottom was 2006,

Stephanie Dower 22:35

oh man,

Jason Clymo 22:36

yeah, okay. I feel like was laughing at the most inappropriate times, I was like, if I don't

Stephanie Dower 22:42

laugh, I think absurd, like that. Ah, it demonized autism. It like made it a villain. It did all the disability tropes, just through narration, literally. And then, I'm sorry, I can't say it's just I'm I'm astounded by that entire thing. I don't know

Jason Clymo 23:03

what that was. Usually the in and out, you're trying to sell something. I

Stephanie Dower 23:07

don't know what their message

Sara Shams 23:09

was at all. I think they're trying to sell the fact that you need to gather together and fight this new war. Well, it sounds like, which is

Jason Clymo 23:16

which would then also, then be like, donate money, probably because of the

Stephanie Dower 23:20

space. Yeah? Like, so I there, you know, it's like, no, like, my favorite part was, autism will destroy all

Unknown Speaker 23:31

the marriage.

Jason Clymo 23:32

I think the marriage was, marriage was, they seem to have faced the start of the ad off the AIDS ad from the 80s, worse

Sara Shams 23:45

than childhood cancer and

Jason Clymo 23:48

AIDS, where people that fucking data from like, worse how I actually

Sara Shams 23:53

generally didn't know how to react. I'm like, and also just wouldn't finish what was going on

Jason Clymo 23:58

forever. But who do I think is watching it like I think they think autism is watching,

Sara Shams 24:03

yes, it's autism watching, for you, autism, the sentient being.

Jason Clymo 24:10

Well, I think we can pretty confidently say that one was

Stephanie Dower 24:14

that was the most askew thing, I think I've seen across all episodes that was

Jason Clymo 24:19

rescuing that. But they achieved their aim.

Stephanie Dower 24:24

We're talking about

Jason Clymo 24:27

autism, yeah, well, to they've cured it, it's done. They've cured it.

Stephanie Dower 24:33

We've taken away its voice. It's all good.

Jason Clymo 24:36

Autism is dead.

Stephanie Dower 24:42

We're almost out of time after all that. But before we go, let's just do our speedy suggestions. So Sam and we might start with you.

Jason Clymo 24:50

There's been a lot of talk about sport recently. Paralympics. Don't just let it be a flash in the pan. Keep supporting community. Disabled. Sport, starting with the Victorian wheelchair Football League. Get on their Instagram, follow them. And yeah, it's great. Yeah, it's fun,

Stephanie Dower 25:08

amazing, awesome. And Sarah,

Sara Shams 25:10

well, it took me some time to find something that was a positive representation of disability that I thought, and it's an animated film that How to Train Your Dragon, which, yes, it showed disability in a positive light, but also just as a part of life, and it wasn't just the be all and end all of the characters. So

Jason Clymo 25:27

again, like trust like a kids movie too. Yeah,

Stephanie Dower 25:30

absolutely. Children's TV is where it's at, yeah? Currently, yeah. I

Jason Clymo 25:34

thought I'd take a bit more of, like, a serious suggestion for like, all the employers out there. I think there's a lot of, like, stigma around asking questions for people when you're hiring them, especially, or, like, conducting interviews. I'm an employer. I'd like to think I'm an inclusive employer. I do everything I possibly can think of, and, you know, stay up to the standards. But honestly, the best thing that you could be doing when running interviews, when considering hiring people, is just ask them what they actually would need for the process to be accessible so and then, obviously, implement those accommodations. You don't just ask and do nothing, ask and implement,

Stephanie Dower 26:09

yeah, for sure. And for my speedy suggestion, I'm gonna do a little shameless plug here a series that I worked on last year called game changers. You can find it on Tiktok and Instagram, I believe. And we follow 13 young athletes at the top of their fields, and three of them para athletes who I got to work with. So I, you know, the Paralympics have just been on. You know, I feel like para sport is really in the zeitgeist at the moment. So check out game changers and other para sport related content, or go see a local game. I saw wheelchair basketball recently, and it was cutthroat. It is terrifying to watch. It is so much I remember the smell of the burning rubber. Oh my god, yeah. And even, like, their chairs hit so hard, sometimes sparks will fly out. Like it is, like, yeah, check it out. It's it's really fun and really impressive. So

Jason Clymo 27:03

also, people at home, when you ask someone like me, like, Oh, are you gonna start playing wheelchair basketball, wheelchair rugby? Like, fucking No. And that's why

Stephanie Dower 27:10

scary. It's too

Sara Shams 27:12

scary. And honestly, people with disability, we're not all elite. That leads,

Stephanie Dower 27:17

no, very much. Not. We really are not. No, we can appreciate it. Yes, absolutely, any people can. Yeah, we are not all athletes. We are not all Paralympians. Also,

Jason Clymo 27:27

that's not the only thing that we can probably do that's meaningful with our lives.

Stephanie Dower 27:31

We can do other things sometimes. Yes, yeah, yeah,

Jason Clymo 27:34

before we jump off, where can people stay up to date? Book you for jobs, whatever, follow you follow on Samuel G Drummond at Instagram, and there's a podcast coming out on Powerd media spaces. You can follow that as well and buy the book. Broke Yes, absolutely

Sara Shams 27:58

follow me on Instagram on no legs, no worries. And I love that. And yes, send me messages if you want more information. Yeah, great.

Stephanie Dower 28:07

Thank you. And if you'd like to see more of reframed and discuss anything that we've talked about on the show, check out our social media channels and stay tuned for more episodes. Thank you. Bye.