Diversity, Equity and Inclusion - in practice

00:04 Susan

Hi, my name is Susan Seipel. I'm a three time Paralympic medalist in the sport of canoe and kayak. And you're listening to Leisure Link with Peter Greco on the Vision Australia radio network.

00:40 Peter

It's just gone 5:00. And with the Ides of March, the only thing you have to do is be welcome to Leisure Link very warmly here on Vision Australia Radio 1197 AM in Adelaide, online at varadio.org ... VA Radio Digital in Adelaide and Darwin... through your favourite podcast or streaming service... our friends listening through 103.9 FM Hope FM, Esperance in Western Australia... and our other friends at Disability Media Australia - find out more about them at Powered Media, p o w e r d dot media... including. You can find the podcast of Leisure Link. Peter Greco saying wonderful to be here. Thank you for your company. This program coming to you from Kaurna land. 

Coming to you very shortly: we'll catch up with Susan Seipel, who's represented Australia at three Paralympic Games. World champion. Susan has announced her retirement, will reflect on her career - and what will Susan be doing next? We'll catch up with Ned Brewer-Major talking about the Blind Cricket Blast happening in Victoria later on this month - the answer to IPL or Gather Round. We'll also catch up with Julianne Bell, who along with Melissa Buchholz, will be touring New South Wales. The show is called Perfectly Imperfect - a chance for you to go along as well. 

Pam Mitchell talks about Diversity, Equity and Inclusion - what an important topic. Pam will cover that well. We'll meet Logan Hopper and Jess Syme, who invite you to the Heartbeat Club that's happening this Friday. Your personal invitation to attend is via the radio very, very soon. We'll also catch up with Jim Cooper from Continence Health Australia. Find out about... what they're doing. And Sarah Richardson will join us from Health Bright - talk about Telehealth for Mental Health. 

Well it's always been great over the years catching up with one of our finest Paralympians, Susan Seipel, who's won medals at World Championships and Paralympic Games. And Susan, I think it's called a time on her career. Susan, lovely to catch up with you again. And you've retired.

02:51 Susan

Yes. I've retired. Thanks so much for having me on the show.

02:56 Peter

What made you decide to retire at this time?

02:59 Susan

Mm, yeah. Well, I had a lot of reasons... but yeah, basically I have achieved kind of a lot in my career, and I'm really content with what I've done. And I think it was time to... yeah, hang up the paddle and... move on to other things.

03:16 Peter

Okay. We might come to that before we wrap up, but how do you look back on your career? Of course, it's an interesting one. It's always an interesting career, but you've had a couple of different sports that you've excelled at.

03:25 Susan

Yeah, it's been a really windy journey, I guess. And, starting out, I kind of found my Paralympic dream back when I was doing equestrian. And then of course, I didn't actually make it to the games in that sport, but I got very close and then kayak came along at the right time and kind of reignited my dream to go to the Paralympics. And then I managed to get to three. So it worked out really well.

03:55 Peter

And a great way to finish two in Paris with a medal. I mean, that must be very satisfying.

03:59 Susan

Yeah. I was so happy with my result in Paris. A few challenges to get there, and I got COVID when I was at the gate, so... yeah, but... so I was so happy to come away with a medal after everything.

04:14 Peter

Hiking with COVID wouldn't be a good fit for success. I wouldn't have thought.

04:18 Susan

No. Well, yeah, it just made things more stressful because you put in so much work over so many years, and then everything was kind of going to plan until right at the time of the games it all. You're not expecting to get sick, but these things happen and kind of, you just have to carry on.

04:36 Peter

Well, you certainly did, and in a fine way. An incredible career. You've won world championships. I mean, you went to Rio, then Tokyo, of course - with COVID, as in during COVID, and then you got COVID in Paris as well. So I guess part of the Paralympic journey is the fact that you get to so many different places in such a variety of places and a variety of circumstances which you're competing in.

04:58 Susan

Yeah, I feel actually really fortunate and lucky that I've got to experience so many different games. Like Rio was actually the first time that my sport was in the Paralympics, so that was really exciting and we were getting a lot of attention with having, putting our new sport on the map and kind of everything that we did was historical because it was the first time. So that was really special. And then Tokyo, of course, was a totally different experience because of COVID and it was postponed. And that was... a totally different Games. And then, yeah, to finish on Paris with kind of having crowds back again and the whole atmosphere... yeah, it was a wonderful games to be a part of and to, yeah, finish my career on.

05:43 Peter

And of course, that's the three Paralympic Games within the World Championships, which is you won gold at and again in different countries, part of the rich tapestry of what makes up your career.

05:54 Susan

Yeah... I've kind of lost track of how many world championships I've been to, but...

06:00 Peter

Not many people can say that. So you're, you know, you're... a company.

06:04 Susan

Yeah. You go to so many and you kind of...

06:07 Peter

If you're an athlete, you do.

06:10 Susan

Yeah. I feel very lucky, that I've been to so many that I've kind of lost count of... the ones that I've been to. But... yeah, I think I finished up with nine medals from World championships and three of those were gold medals. So yeah, again, just like, incredible experience.

06:27 Peter

Was the fact that you didn't make it to the Beijing Games, did that kind of stir up the passions to, for Rio even more and maybe make made making the team even more satisfying?

06:39 Susan

Mm, I would say yes. It definitely made it more satisfying because, you know, when you try at something and you don't succeed, it is quite crushing. And then it was kind of unexpected because I wasn't really expecting to change sports and do so well in a new sport. I just started in kayak just because. Well, for leisure, you know, for fun and fitness. And that's kind of why I've been in sport for so long, because I really do enjoy it. But yeah, it's been a bonus to actually get to achieve, you know, a long time dream, a childhood dream of being a Paralympian. And yeah, it does make it, I think, more satisfying. 

And I think you appreciate it more because you do know the other side of the coin. You have experienced not making a game. So so to experience both sides is, I guess, more unique. And it's more special when you do achieve what you set out to.

07:34 Peter

Just try to work it out. When you didn't make it in Beijing, you were, well, you're still young now, Susan, but you were a very young woman. I mean, that would be a hard thing to recover from. You could kind of toss it all in and say, Well, I'll go and do something else, or will you turn to a different sport? And three Paralympic Games later and nine medals later, you're... you know, you're looking back on it.

07:54 Susan

Yeah, absolutely. I think we get a lot of times in life where we have to challenge ourselves and yeah, it can go either way. I think depending on, I guess, your attitude towards what's happening and then also like the opportunities that come along. You know, I was very fortunate to come along at the right time in a new sport that it was just in the... Games. And so they were looking for athletes and yeah, I just happened to have some skill set from my equestrian that I was able to transfer. And yeah, the rest is history.

08:29 Peter

Is that balance that you talk about....I'm thinking riding a horse and kayaking... yeah, what are the similarities and I guess, balance?

08:37 Susan

Absolutely. I actually, now that I'm retired, I can actually say that I have never fallen out of a kayak, during my whole career. And I think that is definitely to... the times, the many times that I fell off horses learning how to ride horses. But then I eventually mastered my balance.

08:54 Peter

Is there a secret to balancing? I mean, I'm not sure. You know, like some people, they can kind of stand on a bus when it's moving and not have to hang on to anything. I'm not quite sure how they do that. I marvel at that. But is there a secret to being able to balance?

09:06 Susan

Mm, I would say practice is kind of the secret to everything, but I yeah, I don't know, some people are just a little bit more, more naturally better at some of these things, I think. And I'm kind of, I'm quite short and compact, and I think that helped me balance a little bit better then, as opposed to like someone who's really tall and lanky and kind of has a longer, a longer back, if you know what I mean, so that they're it's a bit harder to stabilise. But yeah. No, I don't know, practice I would say. Practice also.

09:38 Peter

Good tip. What's... the moment you're most proud of?

09:41 Susan

Oh, gosh... I would say in Rio, winning a medal - because that was, we were making history. It was the first time, as I said in the... Paralympics, I was the first Australian to win a medal in my sport at the Paralympics. So I would say that was definitely up there. And then also, I'd say winning my first gold medal at World Championships back in Milan... 2015. That was also very special because, yeah, before that I hadn't won any medals. So it was kind of like I went straight to the top after a lot of hard work. But those two stand out.

10:22 Peter

Yeah. Being the first Australian to win a Paralympic medal of kayaking, no one can ever take that away from you. There might be a million gold medal winners after this. There won't be. But you know what I mean - there will never be another first.

10:34 Susan

Exactly. Yeah. That's... yeah, it's very special.

10:37 Peter

What are you going to miss most, do you think?

10:39 Susan

Definitely the people. Definitely. You know, I've made a lot of friends with... actually my competitors. I'm a lot of friends, made friends with them and I think I'm going to miss them seeing them every year, and catching up with them. Although, you know, it's great that we can stay in touch over technology these days. So it's not like, you know, we're completely cut off. But yeah, definitely the people I think are the things that you miss the most, yeah. Just hanging, you know, seeing my coach every day and my support... staff, you know, we spent so much time together and, you know, you get become so close to them. My teammates, you know, we all become so close. And yeah, I don't get to see them every day anymore, which is definitely something I'm missing.

11:26 Peter

This might be a bit strange, but what about the kind of routine or dare I call it, the regimen of being an elite athlete? I guess you might miss that in a way, but not miss it in another way, if I can put it that way.

11:37 Susan

Yeah, definitely. I don't really miss it yet... getting up really early in the morning and going out with a, you know, illness, it's raining and it's, you know, terrible weather. I haven't actually started to miss that yet. So yeah, I'm kind of enjoying a bit of freedom and it's... yeah, it's kind of unusual because normally we're planning, everything's planned and you kind of always looking forward, looking towards working towards something. And I haven't been doing that. So I'm kind of letting myself enjoy some freedom at the moment.

12:09 Peter

Because often you hear elite athletes talk about that, that they're kind of almost lost. I mean, you know, they've virtually had their life almost arranged minute by minute. Then all of a sudden they retire. And what do I do now? Or, you know, it's kind of feeling a bit lost or a bit, dare I say, almost irrelevant.

12:26 Susan

Exactly. Yeah. It is a big change. It's definitely a big change to kind of your identity as well, because we spend so much time as athletes. And then when that stops, it is kind of like you have to work out, Okay, who am I without my sport kind of thing? But I guess I've... had the luxury of preparing for this and I, I'm really happy with my timing and everything. So I'm not forced into retirement. So yes, I have had a lot of time to kind of think about this stuff and make plans and yeah, so so it's been it's been fine for me. But yes, it's definitely... challenging kind of having to work out what you do.

13:12 Peter

Now, well you predicted my next question because I was going to ask you what... what's next for Susan Seipel?

13:17 Susan

Um, well yeah, I'm just being, getting back into uni. That started last week, so yeah, I'm gonna do the student thing now for for a while and see where that takes me.

13:30 Peter

What are you studying?

13:31 S1

I'm studying Psychology.

13:33 Peter

All right, well, of course you've done, like, equine... study. And I guess that that's maybe some sort of foundation for Psychology, I guess. Yeah. Animal behavior in more ways than one.

13:45 Susan

Yeah. Well, yeah. Animal therapies is... a big interest of mine... so yeah, I, it would be awesome to kind of link in that together. And of course sport is hugely beneficial to... mental health and wellbeing. So I feel like I have a lot of interests in a lot of different areas towards psychology and sport or animals.

14:09 Peter

And apart from that, what do you like to do to kind of relax or, you know, you got some spare time? I'm going to fill in the blanks.

14:17 Susan

Mm, hang out with my friends and my family that, you know, unfortunately kind of neglect them, you know, during my career because I had to be overseas and training all the time. And so, yeah, I've been really enjoying catching up with just friends and going out for coffee and stuff like that. And yeah, I want to make sure that I don't miss any more kind of birthdays or weddings or things like that which you do end up sacrificing a lot... during my sporting career.

14:47 Peter

Yeah, two S's, they're Sacrifices and also Selfish. I've heard athletes talk about lots of sacrifices, but also becoming very selfish. All they do is worry about what they've got to do, which I guess can be to the exclusion of the stuff that you've talked about there that you might like to enjoy.

15:02 Susan

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely it is. You have to be very selfish as an athlete because, you know, you've got your goals that you want to get to and you have a support team around you trying to help you achieve your goal is it's, you know, a really unique kind of situation. But yeah, you do also make a lot of sacrifices along the way.

15:23 Peter

And you had a website that people can get lots of good information from as well.

15:26 Susan

Yeah. My website is... www.susanseipel.com - that's kind of details my whole sporting journey and... yeah, I'm looking I'm looking for opportunity. I'm open to opportunities and kind of... doing other things. So, yeah.

15:44 Peter

Maybe public speaking, that sort of thing. Motivational speaking.

15:47 Susan

Yeah. And I've signed up to do a few... school talks as well... with Paralympics Australia to kind of... talk about... disability within schools and sport as well. And yeah, like I've also been doing some other sports. I recently started doing... wheelchair cricket just for fun.

16:10 Peter

Okay. I have to leave that for another time and talk about that, because that sounds very interesting as well. A topic all for itself. Susan, congratulations. Thank you for being available, a number of times when we requested to speak to you. We've really enjoyed and appreciate it. Congratulations on all you've achieved. And you're still very young, so still plenty more chapters to write in the Susan Seipel story.

16:30 Susan

Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. It's always a pleasure to talk to you.

16:35 Peter

There's a sample three times Paralympian and... well, certainly world championship record holder as well. Now retired, but still much more to come. 

What about beginning towards the end of the cricket season? But fly cricket has got something pretty cool happening at the end of the month. Let's chat about it with Australian player Ned Breqwer-Magai. Great to catch up again and thanks for your time.

16:58 Ned

Yeah, Peter, always great to have a chat to you, mate.

17:00 Peter

Now this sounds pretty amazing. Tell us a bit about it.

17:03 Ned

Yeah. So... I've been doing a lot of work in the back end of the Victorian Blind Cricket Association. It's an idea that's been been cooked up for many, many years from a lot of different people in the in the blind cricket scene, but very similar to our... I guess, our national cricket inclusion and championships where we get..., anyone who really wants to come up and play cricket... up to Brisbane, we're getting everyone to come down to... Melbourne. So... over the weekend of the 29th and... 30th of... March, we're getting a whole bunch of people to come down and play blind cricket. And it's yeah, it's going to be a really great weekend. And and showcasing the the amazing community that we have in blind sports. So yeah, we're really looking forward to it.

17:47 Peter

Is it kind of a little bit like an IPL, if I can say that?

17:50 Ned

Yeah, I guess you can you can put it in that that way. I think it's sort of a franchise model. So it's going to be four teams... at the moment, with the registration still open at the moment, we've got about... 48 people who have signed up and... flights are booked. So there'll be four... teams and... potentially even more numbers coming through hopefully in the... back end of registration timelines. But yeah, definitely similar to your Big Bash or your... IPL. There'll be a, four teams, a few games over the weekend and a couple of other fun things. So... yeah, really, really looking forward to it.

18:27 Peter

Sort of thing where... obviously you've got to balance out the different categories to make sure that the teams are fairly evenly matched that way.

18:34 Ned

Yeah, definitely. So what will happen? There'll be a bit of a draught. So that'll be... fun to be a part of. And... out of the pool of players and people be be drafted into... a team. And obviously within that there'll be a balance within their B1, B2 and B3 categories. And we've got great numbers across all three categories. So it should be very even. And obviously participation... is at the... forefront of... what we want to do. And yeah, everyone, everyone will come down and have a hit and have a bowl and... be around our wonderful community. 

So yeah, absolutely pumped. It's been something that... has been talked about a lot within the blind cricket team for as long as I've been a part of it over the last ten years. So to have, I guess, the first sort of instalment of something that we've worked on and, and try and try to actually give it a go, it's really exciting. But yeah, it's... something that we're super pumped to... hopefully execute and execute well.

19:31 Peter

But just judging by the early numbers, obviously a lot of people are thinking the same way: I'd like to be part of this.

19:36 Ned

Yeah, definitely, I think, well it definitely exceeded our expectations, obviously. You know, working, just on a... volunteer board of the VCA, we just thought, Look, we'll give it a crack and see how many people we can get down. We often get, you know, the states to... come down and play against, you know, Victoria or anything like that. And you know, we can add those weekends, but... we thought we'll try and change it up a little bit and... see what was... the go. And yeah, heaps of people signed up initially on the expression of interest... and even, I guess to see the retention of those numbers coming through to now, it's really, really exciting as well. 

So yeah, to have this many people coming down is... such a a good indication of where cricket really is across the country. And it only will, in my opinion, and it definitely felt, our expert perspective will only help grow the sport. So yeah, it's... phenomenal really to see the buy-in and input from everyone else.

20:30 Peter

I... having a bit of a draught, that might give the these guys a bit of a massage. You reckon?

20:35 Ned

Yeah, it's... going to be interesting. They're a bit of... brain pretzelling I think will go on it and trying to work out how to... really go about the best teams. But look, it's... an exciting thing. We, you know, obviously within... blind sports, a lot of the time it's... we do this type of stuff anyway, really, but to have sort of a more structured way of... setting up teams and... having multiple different... people involved in the sport. And then we've got a few new people who haven't played before and obviously really experienced players. I think it's going to be a really good melting point... and a melting pot, sorry... and... of different people and... just that connection piece. 

So a lot of people around the country as well, as it's something that we're really excited for and, you know, with... a relatively small community in the blind cricket space and the blind sports space as a whole to bring people down and... be a part of, you know, a sport that we all love and feel connected to, I think that is something that I'm most excited for.

21:35 Peter

Where will the matches be played?

21:36 Ned

So it's going to be, um, held at Fawkner Park. So that's. Yeah, in South Yarra in Melbourne. So not too far away from the CBD. Um, we've got a great relationship with Melbourne City Council there for getting us some turf. Turf grounds in there. So and we play the majority of our, our, uh, our state and um, I guess local programs in, in Victoria down there at Fawkner Park. So yeah, it's... awesome to have two turf wickets and to have the access to... yeah, some pretty sought after grounds. So it's, yeah, it's a great spot to be in and close to a lot of things in the city of Melbourne. So yeah, really really excited for that.

22:14 Peter

824 match, all the matches.

22:16 Ned

Yep. So yeah there will be yeah two T20 matches um on the Saturday. And I think at this stage, one maybe even more so on the Sunday as well. So yeah, each team will will have a heap of games to play. There are a lot of cricket there. We're going to put a whole bunch of different things in there for match conditions, to make sure that it says participation and led as possible, but also making sure that we get really good quality cricket happening as well. So yeah, a lot of work and time has been put into it to try and making this the most impactful weekend as possible. 

So yeah, I really have a lot of faith that it will be... yeah, a real watershed moment for... blind cricket over... the years to come, I guess. But yeah.

23:00 Peter

But then how do you go to as far as umpires go in blind cricket? You know, often in sports, those sort of volunteer areas can be a bit, you know, hard to... get people involved. What about umpiring in blind cricket? How do you go and I guess the sort of ancillary people around that, scorers, etc.. Are you pretty well catered in that area?

23:17 Ned

Yeah. It's always I mean, it's always an area that... requires a lot of... support. And in particular, as you mentioned there, Peter, with the volunteer aspect of it, you know, we're really lucky that in Victoria and I know in multiple different states there's, it's normally a group of usual people who who always turn up. And we're really, really grateful for that. But we've... done a few initiatives in the past of... actually getting into umpires groups and... going into different avenues of trying to find more volunteers. It's always on the agenda.

But we're really, really lucky that that we have a really solid base of... particularly umpires and scorers that come down on a regular basis for a lot of the things that we do, and they're going to be there in the weekend, but definitely always trying to find more. So yeah, it's a big it's a big part of our sport. And I guess all, all blind sport really is having volunteers to come down and be be a part of of that. And the best part about having volunteers is once you once you come down and do it, once, you automatically become a part of our community as well. So you're more than likely will come down. It's a great bunch of people and and yeah, we're always looking for more. But yeah, really lucky to have the the crew that we do at the moment.

24:29 Peter

Well, if you like that kind of team sport, that kind of... locker room camaraderie, as you say, even though you might not necessarily be playing, it's still a great, a great way to be involved in a sport like that. There's that certain sort of, you know, enchanting thing about it, when you can get a few people involved that love the cricket and love talking cricket and a bit of nonsense as well.

24:50 Ned

Oh, definitely, man. We're... no different in... the blind cricket group to any others, there's... a lot of banter and a lot of great cricket chats and... but as I mentioned before, being a part of this community, it's such a unique thing. And if you haven't been a part of it before... it's such a beautiful spot to be. It's, there's so many people with amazing stories and amazing things that they've... gone through... and experiences. And just like any new sort of group that you can be a part of, and it's always, I think more so, though, for the blind community, it's as unique as it can get. And yeah, I would highly encourage anyone who wants to come down and be involved just to come down, and you'll fall in love with it and and stick around. So yeah, it's a... wonderful place to be.

25:34 Peter

Have you got people coming from most states, as far as kind of putting their hands up go?

25:37 Ned

Yeah, yeah. Pretty much nearly nearly every state that's has been... blind cricket played in it. So we've got - I don't have the numbers straight off the top of my head of... where they're coming from - but a lot from WA, from... SA, from Queensland, a lot from New South Wales, and then obviously a good contingency from... Victoria as well... I think even... Tassie and there's a few coming from there as well. So it's... a really good indication of where cricket can go to with... at least blind cricket. So you can go to, with... these types of initiatives and seeing the input and the buy-in, I'm sure a lot of people will be... heavily interested in making it a regular thing. So and that's definitely our goal. 

So...yeah, we're... thrilled with we're seeing the... input from, particularly from interstate, our players from a Victorian lens, but it's... just, it's been remarkable. And on top of that, the volunteers as well. So a lot of those states, there's people who are coming down to volunteer for the weekend as well from from those states, not only to... play or just to volunteer solely as well, which is such a huge thing for us. And making sure the weekend goes... well as possible. So yeah, it's been absolutely brilliant seeing the buy-in and just can't wait to to get the ball rolling. And we could have... a bit of a hit. It will be, it'll be really great.

26:53 Peter

March 29th and 30th. If people want to find out more, what's the best place to go to? Is there a website they can go to to get some more info?

27:00 Ned

Definitely. Definitely get it onto their Victorian Blind Cricket Association website. And there's, through there, there's a lot of different ways of actually finding out more about the weekend itself and everything else that we're doing. And then yeah, from there you'll be able to find all, all the information about registration and whatnot. So look, yeah, I think registrations are closing pretty soon. But... we'll love... anyone who wants to be involved to, jump on and... have a crack at some cricket down here.

27:30 Peter

Alright. We'll put those details up in the show notes now. Always great to catch up. Good luck.

27:34 Ned

Thank you very much, Peter. Always good to talk to you.

27:36 Peter

There we go. That's the curious answer to the IPL. And gather round - the Blind Cricket Blast coming up on March the 29th and 30th. All those details up with our show notes.

27:49 Program ID

You're in elite company, listening to Leisure Link, here on Vision Australia Radio, VA radio, digital varadio dot org, and through the TuneIn radio app.

28:01 Peter

For Julee-Anne Bell and Melissa Buchholtz. Have they completed their Adelaide Fringe tour? But the tour has just begun, because they're off to other places. Greener pastures. Dare I say? Julee-Anne Bell is on the line. Julianne. Great to catch up and thanks for your time.

28:15 Julee-Anne

Thanks, Peter. I don't know about greener pastures. We'll have to see. Depends what the cyclone's done for three.

28:21 Peter

She said, I was going to ask you about that, because that's sort of where you're heading off to, isn't it?

28:25 Julee-Anne

Well, kind of. I mean, I was... we were in the path of the cyclone when we flew home. We were just lucky that Alfred took his sweet time getting here. So, yes, but we were... I had my family very worried that I wouldn't get back to Brisbane and that sort of thing, but, yeah, I think New South Wales is sort of past the worst of it now. So that's... I mean, I'm sure there are people who are still without power, and people, you know, who are suffering, and that's really tough. But I think the actual weather event has probably ended.

28:53 Peter

So where are you going and where do you start?

28:55 Julee-Anne

Look, we're heading basically up and down New South Wales in a bit of a crisscross. We're starting on the 21st of March in Glen Innes. And we're going to and I've got to see if I can remember all the city, all the towns actually we're going to. Glen Innes, we're going to Armidale, Tamworth, Narrabri, Parkes, Dubbo, Aubrey, Goulburn, Junee, Ballina, Casino, Grafton and I think I've got them all. I'll just...

29:24 Peter

You've done very well, even if you haven't, that's an outstanding performance. So.... at the end of the show, will you do a I've Been Everywhere duo?

29:32 Julee-Anne

I think we will. Please. We would have been everywhere that matters, you know.

29:38 Peter

Yeah. That's right. All right. And just that, we'll repeat it before we wrap up. But people can book via Try Bookings.

29:44 Julee-Anne

They can. People can book by Try Booking. So if you search for Perfectly Imperfect and, if you even just type my name in, Julee-Anne Bell, I'm a tricky one. I'm a double E, but if you type Perfectly Imperfect, you should find us. If you have any troubles at all, we're going to send a Perfectly Imperfect email address to the show, but it's pretty straightforward. It's Perfectly Imperfect news, news at gmail dot com. So that's Perfectly Imperfect news at gmail dot com. Any queries or problems booking, write to us there.... and Melissa or myself will answer that. We're so involved with our fans that we answer our own emails.

30:24 Peter

Fantastic. Now, I was lucky enough to be at the concert, or one of the concerts that you did in Adelaide at the Fringe, at Garage International, which was a great setting. It's really good. I mean, for those people who weren't there and obviously hopefully in New South Wales, they'll be able to get there, give us a bit of a snapshot of what the show is about.

30:42 Julee-Anne

So the tagline on the show is Perfectly Imperfect songs and stories of life, love and laughter. And essentially what we do is, we sing, I sing, and Melissa plays the piano, and we perform songs that were as significant to us as we were growing up, and songs that mean something to us and represent different aspects of our lives. And in between those songs, I tell a fair few stories. Melissa talks a little bit, but I generally talk more, which anyone who knows me knows that that's just kind of a given. 

But we tell stories about our lives. Some of them are funny, some of them are serious, and we basically try to leave audiences with a really nice feeling after they leave the show humming along tunes that they probably know. There's nothing that's unknown or inaccessible in this show. It's a very comfortable show.

31:29 Peter

I think you've made a great point about the fact that the songs are all well known. They are. They were all hits.

31:35 Julee-Anne

That's what we've tried for. We've really aimed for songs that people will recognise. You know, there are some different genres, so if it's not your particular genre, you might not recognise it. One of those is Janis Ian's At Seventeen. There are a few people who don't know that song, but Janis Ian is is still a very renowned artist. She... manages her own Facebook page. So even if you're famous, sometimes you do your own stuff. And she's, yeah, she's still going. And... her songs were really important back in the day, and it's a really beautiful song, actually.

32:08 Peter

I think that was a really interesting story around that. You want to share that with us? Because I guess there'd be a lot of people that maybe might be young or, you know, sort of going through adolescence now or people who are older and could reflect back to those times. I think a lot of people could identify with maybe not being one of the cool kids.

32:24 Julee-Anne

Absolutely. Melissa and I both talk about our high school time and why Melissa didn't really have the same sort of bullying that I did, because I had quite a lot of bullying at high school. Both of us, as musicians, really didn't fit into what was the cool group back in the day. And I think when you are musical and you were clever, I think those things were not celebrated when we were younger, and I think it was really tough for us to sort of find our way. And I think it's made me a much stronger and more resilient person. High school was really the beginning of life in terms of really learning about what a struggle was, I think. 

And I do think that resilience doesn't come from having, you know, having easy times and good times. Resilience is something that's built from struggles. And, you know, I read something somewhere the other day where I also... just a Facebook post, I think, and someone was sort of talking about, you know, being resilient. You know, people celebrate it and they go, Oh yeah, resilience is such a good thing. And it is. But in the actual act of being resilient, we are terribly uncomfortable. It's a terribly uncomfortable place to be because you are working against diversity. You're working against something really tricky to manage to function and get through life. And anyone who says that resilience is easy has never really tried it.

33:42 Peter

Yeah, that's very, very true. Yeah. I mean, in a sense, you shouldn't find resilience easy. If the... if you do, then you're not experiencing it.

33:49 Julee-Anne

Absolutely right. That's absolutely right. And it's a good feeling afterwards. I think once you can sort of say Yep, I was resilient and I got through that, I think that's a wonderful feeling. And you can't bottle that feeling. It's fantastic. But the actual act of being resilient is really, is really tricky and and can be quite trying. But it is worth it - because there's so much learning in that resilience. At least there has been for me. I can't think of a tough situation I've been through where I haven't learned something.

34:18 Peter

That's a very positive message, and we don't want to give the whole show away, Julee-Anne. But one thing I thought was really good. And you've actually mentioned that with me on the program before, was your approach, if you like, when you're on The Voice and like you were going to be your own person and we're going to kind of fall into any stereotypes you want to share that for those people who might not have heard that before.

34:37 Julee-Anne

Well, yes. When you go on to reality television, it's really managed by producers. And the thing about reality television that a lot of people don't realise is that there is a script, it's just that the contestants don't know it. So that script is really very well managed by the producers. And basically what we are is characters in... a drama, and we use our own name and we use our own personality and we are unpaid, but essentially we are providing characters for the drama, and the producers move those characters around and manipulate those characters to get what they need. Now they're just doing their job. 

I actually, I think I think you have to go into this situation with the knowledge and you have to understand what you're going into. And I... don't think that any of them do it with any sort of malice, but that's their job. And so when they do, you do a lot of interviews on the show. They don't air, you know, most of what you say. You can do hours of interviews and they try to lead you to the answers that they want you to give to questions. And so I... they would say things to me like, Oh, you know, being glowing, it must be really challenging. You must... I would imagine that at times you get very emotional. And I sat there and I just sort of had a little pause and a little smile, and then I just said, No, not really.

35:57 Peter

That's not what they wanted.

35:59 Julee-Anne

I was really unhelpful in that regard. I was really unhelpful. And I do think it possibly had an impact on why I didn't travel a bit further, but I just couldn't in good conscience, present or present something that wasn't true. Of course, blindness is hard at times. We know that. But... it's not hard all the time. And, you know, everybody's got something that's hard. You know, I haven't met a person, you know, in my life that doesn't have something that they struggle with. And so we're not really any different. And I just didn't want to be the weeping, sort of sad, blind person painting the picture that blindness is terrible.

36:41 Peter

And on behalf of every blind person in Australia and probably the world, we thank you for that, because that's because that sort of image could then carry through to the general public who kind of think, well, all blind people like that, that that must be the way we treat them or that must be the way they want to be treated.

36:57 Julee-Anne

And look, I think I mentioned to you last time I was talking that I saw some footage of Regina from Big Brother.

37:03 Peter

Yeah.

37:03 Julee-Anne

She's recently on I'm a Celebrity, have and... look. She had handled it slightly differently. I think she was really brave because she was out in the jungle, you know, supposedly doing all these scary things. And she did have some... sadness and things. But Regina was in a very different situation because she is losing her vision. And I think it's really important to separate those two things out, because losing one's vision is a very different thing from being congenitally blind. And so I certainly wouldn't want to detract from that experience or diminish those feelings of people who might feel differently about it, because vision loss is quite different.

37:47 Peter

Julee-Anne, great to catch up with a good chat for hours. It was great meeting you the other day. Now you're touring New South Wales starting March the 21st. If you want to find out more, what's the best way to do that?

37:57 Julee-Anne

You can search for Perfectly Imperfect on Try Booking. You can have a look at the show notes for this show, because I'm going to send Peter a whole list of our dates and times And or you can write to Perfectly imperfect news, news at gmail.com and let us know what town or city you're in and we can hook you up with tickets.

38:17 Peter

Terrific. And also with that email address, will also be able to get you a copy of the CD if you offer it. To you and Melissa, have a great time. As I said, it was great catching up with you and great to have been at your show and I can highly recommend it. So two of us think it's good, you and me. So that's 100%.

38:34 Julee-Anne

Absolutely. Thanks so much for coming Peter. We really appreciated it.

38:37 Julee-Anne

Julee-Anne Bell there with the with Melissa there appearing at Perfectly Imperfect in New South Wales. Go to our show notes and we'll give you all the details. If you can't get there, give us a call at the radio station and we'll pass them on. 

All right, at this time the third week of each month, we catch up with our resident counsellor, Pam Mitchell. Pam, welcome.

39:03 Pam

Hello, everybody. What a warm and very hot time we are having. And the contrast, isn't it? Being aware of this vast land we live on from from just being here with no, no rainfall, our farmers in terrible drought circumstances to being up in Queensland and... northern New South Wales and the devastation, it's just extreme. It just reminds you about the vastness and the... variance in our land has just been incredible.

39:37 Peter

Okay. Now, Pam, you've never shied away from tackling a tough topic, and... you've chosen one this afternoon just for fun.

39:44 Pam

I was just trying to fill in some time there.

39:46 Peter

This feeling, though, you're like...

39:50 Pam

This is... one of those topics that possibly other people do the same thing when they're... faced with this issue that they might decide, Do we really want to get into this? Do we really want to talk about this? So as always, I'm aiming to give a fair and reasonable Geneva discussion here today. But we are speaking about the topic of Equity, Diversity and Inclusion, which has been very published in our papers and in the opinion columns of journalists, etc., with their take on what's happening in our in our world.

Because it's not just us here in Australia, but just the difference that people are placing emphasis on to ensure that they cross over all possible variants to provide something for these people. And I guess in talking about this today, I would say we need to explore that. We need to make sure that people are not being ostracised or left out or discriminated or bullied, and there's no attention to it, and I believe that possibly we need to remind ourselves of whether we actually have that in perspective and whether that's relevant and current, or are we putting other suggestive means into people's minds that may not have had them otherwise? 

And I think there is a fine and real balance. I'm seeing it in my work. I'm seeing it in conversations with others when they tell you about their experiences with their kids at school, or particular people that have been discriminated against, where the stories are real. And I'm just wondering what it's like in all of our listeners listening today. How does that affect you? What view do you have on this? How do we manage this in an effective way?

I have a glossary here that I've downloaded. It's from a great big, scholarly PDF from Canada that it is of some of the terms. And I will try not to take eight minutes to say them all, but it's it staggered me when I downloaded this. We are currently looking within the realm of equity, diversity and inclusion and social justice. These are some of the terms a glossary term. Ableism. Ageism, accessibility. Anti-oppression. Cultural safety. Decolonization. Diversity. Equity. Homophobia. Inclusion. Intersectionality. Meritocracy. Racism. Sexism, Genderism, Social Justice. They are some. 

There is an organisation at the moment in America. It's a big organisation. And they're... science people. So said, these people are bless their hearts, but they do amazing things. They are fairly left, left brain oriented because, you know, things have to line up. You have to have a bridge that meets in the middle. But they are placing emphasis because they have so many staff on these areas in their organisation. So they don't overlook anyone, and they seem to be doing the right thing. And this is where this glossary came from that I downloaded. 

So they're dividing their staff, who are scientists up into little subgroups over these areas to discuss. You know, how they can do that better and be ready for that in their organization. Now I wonder whether that's their real role... whether it's not, Oh, we had this person coming this morning and they definitely need support and we need to be able to direct them to the right person because they're struggling at the moment. We can see they're struggling and we can see there's a problem at home or away. By all means, have that support ready for them to be able to not have these people fall through the cracks. 

But are we planning for something that is not there? But because of their vastness and spread of social media and engagement to be providing everything? Are we doing a sweep of the broom? I wonder that is too shallow and too wide and potentially dangerous. By giving emphasis to something that doesn't possibly need that level of emphasis? I don't know, and I'm sure people listening to me today will have a difference of opinion of... what I'm actually saying here in my studies in counselling. 

Carl Rogers, who is the creator of person centred counselling, is probably one of the main things as a modality I use, and I keep remembering him as I speak with this about today being there for all of his students as he came forth with his modeling of person-centred counselling, which is still used very much in today's world. But that's about being there, focused on the person that's with you and their need. What is it that they need from us? So if we take our focus off of that person's need to spread it widely and to into all these other areas, are we taking our eye off the people that are indicating they need help? 

I have, um, someone I supervise in my capacity as a supervisor who works with people in a very discriminatory sector. Those People are often ostracised because people find them extraordinarily weird, if you like, because their bodies don't function properly and so they can't mix in society. And what happens? They fall through the cracks because they're not getting the right focus, because someone might think they're weird or giving weird advice to somebody because they don't know how to have their bodies function properly and they are starving from knowing. How can I live with all of these things in this limited capacity? 

And there are very few people that have a desire to work with these people. But that's, that's that's a person-centred need. If that need is there, we need to be ready to be able to embrace and be compassionate about that and help those people and have people with the skills to do that, but to make up extra things that Distract from that. Focus on the person and the and the needs that are out there into these other obscure areas. I wonder if that's where we're meant to be. 

I have clients currently whose teenagers have gone from being a female to being a non-binary person, to then being wanted to be called a boy, where they are also partaking in that process because they just are so confused. They're talking. They're stealing money, borrowing money, whatever you want to call it. And then they're into drugs because they don't know. And I'm not being extreme here. This is actual. And two of these people are in the opposite sex private college of what they're pretending to want to be. And so how does the school deal with that? How does the school think? 

Well, I meant to have a boy or a girl here and now they're telling me they're the opposite. What do we do in the curriculum with that? How do we provide change rooms and enough welfare and care for these people? How can we have people trained enough to do that in this sphere? When these issues are there, we need to focus on them. But again, in all the glossary I read out this morning are, some of these are little beyond where we need to be reaching, I wonder. It is a broad sweep.

And I'm also looking at things like we're spending this money on changing street signs, districts, because if there's been a feminine gender name given to it or something, or a male gender name and not a non-specific name, we've changed the street sign, is that the best use of our money? Is there not room for a a Doris, a Dora, a David, [?a are done]. Is that not okay? Does that have to be taken from us for this new approach? I don't know. I just wonder. 

I seriously wonder whether we have stretched a little far in the issues that we face financially war torn areas, hurricanes on our own shore, tornadoes, the need we have in the balance of how we live and what we face in the generations we are. Have we moved the focus away from where that's meant to be? Have we moved the federal budget too far and stretched too far? Are we at every ceremony that we attend? Are we needing to go through? Whether you're a non-binary, whether you're a fluffy, whether you're a him, whether you're a her, whether you're a they, whether you're someone that needs to be treated as just different without any emphasis on how do we help that particular case, I'm wondering whether this could be dealt with better. 

This Carl Rogers I began with, I'd like to finish. Obviously I'm a fan, even though he lived a long time ago with his students. They said to him at one stage, How would you like to be remembered? And he said, I want to be remembered as a piece of transparency paper. And they looked at him and he said, I want people to be able to see that in my care, that you can see right through me to know that what you say I hear and what I give is what I want you to receive. And that's what I would hope our world could do better.

50:48 Peter

Oh, Pam. Wow, what a crescendo. Thank you so, so much for that. And thank you for Carl Rogers's little piece at the end there. That was really wonderful. Pam, as always, you never let us down. You have it today. Now, you're a counsellor by profession. And thank you for giving us a bit of an insight into some of the work that you do. If people want to come and contact you: 0418 835 767.

51:11 Pam

As always, thank you for having me. Take care of yourselves out there.

51:15 Peter

We'll catch up next month.

51:16 Pam

Yeah, Peter.

51:16 S2

Pam is our resident counsellor If you want to contact Pam, and I think you know her by now, very much worthwhile contacting if you need support in that area. 0418 835 767.

51:32 Program ID

On the Vision Australia Network through your favorite podcast service on 1190 7 a.m. in Adelaide, you're listening to Leisure Link.

51:40 Peter

One of the big events coming up later on in March is the Heart Beat Club. Let's find out all about it. And from Tootie, speak to Tessa. Tess, lovely to meet you. Thanks for your time. First time we spoke. It's so great to have you with us.

51:52 Tessa

Thanks so much, Peter. Super excited to speak to you today.

51:55 Peter

Tell us about the Heart Beat Club. When and where is it all happening?

51:58 Tessa

So the Heart Beat Club is a really special disability led club night in Adelaide that we run four times a year. It is run by the Beats Crew here at Tooty Arts. Incredible artists. Leading it for this club night is extra special because it's part of the Adelaide Fringe, so we're super excited. We've got ten DJs playing, we've got a photo booth, we've got Teddy Station, we've got food, we've got a bar. It's going to be a really, really exciting night out for the fringe. Yes. We can't wait.

52:30 Peter

And where is it?

52:31 Tess

The Heart Beat Club is playing on Friday, the 21st of March from 7:00 till 11 p.m., and it's at Mod at the Uni SA on North Terrace in the city.

52:44 Peter

I will give those details before we wrap up and also put it up with that tonight. Yeah. Tell us a bit about the club. Then we'll speak to them a bit more about it as well. But just about to kind of your involvement with Tutti and the Heart Beat Club. And then we can chat to local about what Malcolm's involvement is.

52:59 Tessa

Yeah, sure. So my role at Tutti, I am the artist development coordinator. So in my role I provide and seek professional opportunities for artists here at Tory. Tory is a multi arts organisation, working with well over 200 artists across many different programs... including music, visual arts, dance, hip hop, radio. And the Heart Beat Club is a really special event run by the Beats Crew, which Lorcan will be able to speak to you about. And I am producing the Heart Beat Club and representing and supporting the amazing artists. And yeah, one can't wait to meet new people coming through the door to be part of Heart Beat Club.

53:46 Peter

Who should be coming along? Apart from everyone.

53:48 Tess

Heart Beat Club is a... well, it's an accessible club night, but it is run for and by people living with intellectual disability or who are neurodivergent, their friends and their allies. So it's a fully accessible nightclub. It's... really... something that's incredibly unique in Adelaide, and we're here to promote it, and we'd love to... meet more people.

54:15 Peter

You've been going for a while, as you said. Have you been part of the Fringe like this before? Is this the first first time?

54:20 Tess

I believe this is our first affiliation with the Adelaide Fringe. We tend to run for Heart Beat clubs a year at different venues in the city and venues also that are that are accessible. So not only... we try and make the club as a fully accessible... in its... building and also in the offerings to our community. And yeah, this is a really big, exciting splash as part of the Adelaide Fringe.

54:46 S2

But when you say accessible, you mean as far as kind of wheelchair accessible goes, that sort of thing.

54:49 Tess

Wheelchair accessible also in terms of the experience as well for patrons. So for example, there won't be any smoke machines, there won't be any strobe lighting, there will be some sensory experiences. There'll be some quiet spaces, there'll be some other offerings and experiences for people as well. So as I mentioned before, there'll be a photo booth, which will be really sociable and fun. People can have their photos taken with their friends. We also have a tattoo station, so we have some short term tattoos that you can apply her skin to. 

And this is all to promote the Heartbeat Club. We also have some merchandise, t shirts and hats. We also have stickers. So people who really love music really love DJs, really love beats. This is the club night for you. And so for anyone who's 18 plus. But it's a really special club night and Lorcan's really gonna be able to... yeah, share... with everyone exactly what that is.

55:50 Peter

And... people need to book.

55:51 Tess

Yes. If you can, please book through Adelaide Fringe tickets. So go to the Adelaide Fringe website. Also go to the home page as well and we have some information there. But if you go to Adelaide Fringe tickets, it's $15 general admission, and companion cards are also available as well. You can get your tickets at the door, but we ask people to book ahead.

56:17 Peter

Because they're probably going to get booked out. So you don't want to be left at the door without a ticket.

56:20 Tess

Yeah. So if you if you can, if you love music, if you love to dance, if you love to meet new people and and hear the incredible DJs of the Beats Crew at Tutti, please book through Adelaide Fringe tickets and doors open at seven and it's going to get busy, so please book.

56:38 Peter

All right. Good to talk to you. We'll speak to you in a second. But thank you for your time and good luck.

56:43 Tess

Thank you so much, Peter, and we look forward to meeting you. Making new friends at the Heart Beat Club.

56:48 Peter

It's tough to sign there. Who's with Tutti? Let's meet one of the stars of the show for the Heartbreak Club. Welcome, James Hopper. Welcome. Good to meet you. And thank you for your time. Thank you. How much you looking forward to it? Oh, good. How long have you been involved?

57:04 Lorcan

Since... when I first started. Back in 2018.

57:06 Peter

What made you get involved?

57:08 Lorcan

The love of music. I make music with people with disabilities, like the Hopper Club.

57:13 Peter

What sort of music are we talking about? What sort of music are you talking about? What sort of music can we hear at the Heart Beat Club on March 21st?

57:20 Lorcan

So I it's all different colours of music that I like. So it's for me, I like a dubstep bass and dance music and house music and only one performance on the deck. So where I make my own music with the people that I love with friends.

57:41 Peter

Okay, so this is all your own music that you'll be playing. Is this stuff that you've got in your collection?

57:46 Lorcan

Yeah. So I'm on my I'm doing a duet with my brother and... my... brother. And the name is called the Coco Brothers, where we mix our different cultures with my Irish culture, with Aboriginal culture put into music. Yeah. I mean, it's a great sound.

58:07 Peter

I was going to say it sounds fantastic. Yeah. Now I ask this of tested before you tell me in your words, who do you think should come along? Who's going to enjoy the Heart Beat Club?

58:16 Lorcan

So I think all people with disabilities to get the hand to... perform with us and to make music.

58:26 Peter

Anyone that likes any sort of music, you're going to come on. And I guess, look at the sort of thing that maybe if you want to maybe experience some different kind of music, maybe they've chosen before. That would be a pretty cool thing to do as well.

58:37 Lorcan

Yes, yes.

58:38 Peter

Tell us a bit about your setup then. Have you got, like, a mixing desk and have you got... stuff on... your device? What do you use?

58:47 Lorcan

So I use the iPad where I put my music into one iPad and just just to just to perform with our friends that are out there to have fun. Yeah.

59:01 Peter

What's the, what's it like when you're up there kind of commanding the room? What's that like?

59:04 Lorcan

It feels good. It feels like I'm... I have a lot of heart in music, because every time when I create music, it it helps for all people with disabilities, like people, to be a friendly nightclub where we catch up and to have fun on the night.

59:26 Peter

It's very important. Do you... kind of get the crowd involved? Is that part of your shtick as well? Do you kind of like afford to get the crowd involved?

59:34 Lorcan

Yes, yes. So people, when they come to the club, they find ourselves in our own shoes to get the chance to perform with the best crew and... get the hang to... perform with us.

59:51 Peter

That must be obviously a good feeling as well.

59:53 Lorcan

Yeah.

59:54 Peter

Did you get involved with music? Can you remember the first time you heard music, or how you got sort of the love of music? How did that happen?

1:00:00 Lorcan

Since I was a kid, I've been growing up with music all my life, since when I was a kid. And music is a good method for me, as I have terrible anxiety because for me, as a person with disability, I get anxious a lot. So when you go to music, it's just I had to get out of my comfort zone. With live music, rave music and pumping music to get everyone jumping and bring the house down.

1:00:32 Peter

Now there's only me and you here. Looking so no one's listening. You get a little bit nervous when you're up there sometimes.

1:00:39 Lorcan

But I got friends up there, okay?

1:00:41 Peter

So they helped you kind of relax?

1:00:43 Lorcan

Yeah.

1:00:44 Peter

Did you do, like, breathing exercises or do anything to kind of relax yourself as well?

1:00:48 Lorcan

Well, when I'm performing with just on myself or the crew, for example, it feels like I'm not the only one who makes friends. So to make friends is to be with the crew, stay with the crew. We come up with great music, catching up with friends. So that's why the cover is about you.

1:01:09 Peter

Like to listen to other people's music as well?

1:01:12 Lorcan

Yes.

1:01:12 Peter

Have you got... favourite other artists apart from you? Of course. Have you got a favourite artist that you like as well?

1:01:17 Lorcan

I like the Havana Brown. So... there's a lot. So I feel the inspiration of taking other people We're not thinking about other people's music. But... in terms of the the they asked a lot because Havana Brown, she makes her own music, which I do. So that helps me think about...

1:01:42 Peter

I've interviewed her, I reckon. Would it be fair to say, like when you're up there doing your music, doing your stuff, it's kind of your safe place?

1:01:50 Lorcan

And that's my safe place because it feels like home. Yeah, because the Harvard Club. Because for me, as a as a person with a disability that I... used to go to real nightclubs when I was a kid and that got, pushed me back. I got discriminated four times for that reason because I have a disability. And all he said was, No, you're not allowed to be in this room... like I transform the other way around to make the club happen here in Adelaide.

1:02:25 Peter

The terrible thing. Discrimination, isn't it? Unless you have a long, long-term effect on you, which is not a good thing and totally unnecessary, we should all be very inclusive. You probably, but not common, I don't want to get you into trouble... so for this time, it's coming up on March the 21st. Yeah, it's part of the Fringe Festival, which is cool. First time that's happening. So that'll be really good. Yeah. All right, so what do you say for people out there listening on the radio? If you could say what you could say about coming along. Send them your invitation. What do you want to say to people listening about the Heart Beat Club? What should they do?

1:02:59 Lorcan

Oh, they could come to take part of the club so we can actually make music for them and to listen to us. So all the people with disabilities in Australia, all around the world, that we are powerful, strong artists that make music for one Fringe Festival because the other like [?Frank]. And I want the people to come and be a part of the the environment of the club.

1:03:34 Peter

It doesn't matter where you are in the world, you're invited.

1:03:37 Lorcan

Yes.

1:03:38 Peter

Make a special trip to Adelaide just for the Heart Beat Club.

1:03:41 Lorcan

Yeah.

1:03:42 Peter

Lorcan, great to catch up with you. Thank you so much. Have a great night. I'm sure you will. And more importantly, or equally importantly, those that tend to have a good night as well. You can find out by going to the Fringe website. We'll put those details up with our show notes. Thanks so much for speaking to us. Really appreciate it.

1:03:58 Lorcan

Thank you.

1:03:59 Peter

That's James Hopper, one of the stars of the Heart Beat Club. Coming up March 21st.

1:04:05 Lorcan

Thank you.

1:04:06 Denise

Hi, I'm Denise Wood from USC. One of Queensland's universities with a strong commitment to accessibility and inclusion. And I enjoy being with you and talking about accessibility in technology. Each month on Leisure Link with Peter Greco on Vision Australia Radio.

1:04:27 Peter

Well, we're going to talk about an organisation that we spoke about in the past. They've changed their name, but I'm sure their work is probably even better than ever. Continence Health Australia. Their CEO is Jim Cooper. Jim, great to meet you. Thanks for your time.

1:04:39 Jim

Thanks, Peter. It's good to be on your program.

1:04:41 Peter

Now you've had a name change, but a lot of things still stay the same.

1:04:44 Jim

Yes, yes. Well, the name change to which is Continence Health Australia. And... if you ask what do we do? We're the lead organisation for managing and promoting... good continence health for all Australians. And... it's not just an older person's affliction. It's... can affect Australians of all ages. So, Continence Health Australia looks at... young children and getting into teenagers and adults and then of course older Australians as well. So we're a very busy progressive organisation.

1:05:23 Peter

And putting the word Health into it, it's kind of got a nice positive connotation to it.

1:05:28 Jim

Yeah it does... and we put a lot of thought into that. So, you know, I think one of the... main stories is that if you get the right advice, incontinence is manageable and in some cases curable. And I suppose that's that's the reason for Continence Health Australia's operations is is getting out and letting Australians know that we exist. And if you come and talk to us, we might actually be able to help you improve your situation and your quality of life.

1:06:00 Peter

Often we talk about early intervention being important. I guess it's kind of... equally important if for quality of life, if you're kind of getting attention, getting support early, then you might not have to be putting up with stuff that otherwise you might be putting up with.

1:06:13 Jim

Yeah. It's... an interesting question, Peter, is if you're new to the sector, you might look at it and say, Well that's something that affects older Australians. But we've been doing a lot of work internally on younger children in particular, and if we can get in and get really good advice for parents with their young children and you can address their continence issues early, they don't carry those problems through their embarrassing teenage years and into early adulthood. And it does not just improve their lives, but it really cuts down on the management and the costs required later on in their life.

1:06:52 Peter

If you're talking about kind of, you know, being sort of more accepted, sort of being, you know, part of the crowd a bit easier rather than feeling isolated.

1:07:01 Jim

Yes, yes, yes. It's about well, for particularly for younger Australians, they don't like being singled out, do they? And... so if we can make their lives more manageable with proper assessment about what's going on... yeah, it definitely makes things a lot easier for them to mix with their peers. And, you know, we don't want people with continence issues being isolated at home, which leads to all sorts of other problems. So yeah, I think by addressing the continence, you're enabling them to get out and really enjoy life.

1:07:38 Peter

I guess by the nature of the condition in quotes, it's probably something difficult to raise with your doctor or even with your, you know, close friends, etc. - is that kind of one of the challenges that you face?

1:07:49 Peter

You should be on our strategic planning team, Peter, who we've... just I've just led a discussion this morning on this exact topic, and we like to use the words that we'd like to normalise the conversations within households about continence issues and then not be embarrassed to go to your doctor and say, Look, I've got an issue, and then start the process to work it out. So in the old days, we might have used the word, you know, reducing the stigma. I think our more modern approach is that we'd like to normalise it so that it's not awkward or embarrassing, kicking off or initiating the process to to get it sorted.

1:08:33 Peter

And probably, I mean, not probably, I'm sure easier said than done.

1:08:37 Jim

Yeah, that's a long term task for us. And the question is, how do you, how do we go about normalising it? Well, one of the big things that we do, we're a very... a scientific organisation. So we've got a lot of across our team of staff, we've got a lot of very highly qualified medical experts who are our staff and also our board members. But then the big question is, how do we publicise our knowledge and our help? And so communications is a really big part of what we're doing. And I think how to remove or to normalise the conversation is, we just need to start talking about it more often. So we're a big user of social media in particular. And I think we need to we're determined to actually step up the discussion across Australia so that we start to tell people it's it's normal and it's okay to talk about it.

1:09:31 Peter

You've talked about the professionals that are involved. What about the kind of consumer or those with lived experience?

1:09:37 Jim

Yeah, we do a lot of this is a theme in in the health promotion industry, as you know, is that the importance of actually getting consumers involved, who particularly have been in these situations and make sure they're part of our operations and we deliver our information and our services, taking all of their advice into account. So the so-called lived experience is incredibly important. It's integrated into what we do. And it's I mean, it's a modern approach to health management across all sorts of situations, but very, very important, Peter, to... integrate the lived experience into what we do.

1:10:19 Peter

We go around Australia on the Vision Australia radio network. What about for people who are kind of not in the metropolitan area? We're very city-centric sort of country. You know, there will be people that would be, you know, needing support in this area who are not in the city. So how do you go about getting messages to them? And indeed, I guess having professionals in those areas that can help as well.

1:10:39 Jim

Yeah. Again, you must have been listening this morning, Peter, but the way that we get out to regional parts of Australia is, first of all, it's a big issue because it doesn't really matter where you're located in Australia, if your child or if your elderly spouse is in trouble, or if you're a young mum and you've had a baby recently, so-called postpartum mothers, and you live remotely a long way from a centre, your first question is, What do I do? 

One of the biggest services we provide is we've got a telephone line and the National Continence Helpline. It's called and the number's on our website which is continence dot org dot AU. But... our telephone line is available. It's staffed with lots of very experienced nurses and other experts. And if your regional the calls are taken from all around Australia. And that's a really good starting point if you work remotely. The nurses and other experts who man our telephone lines, I've been speaking to them in the last couple of weeks, and more than half of them are located regionally around Australia, so we've got them in far Western Australia, not in the capital cities. We've got them up in Queensland where we've been experiencing the cyclone recently... New South Wales, Far East Gippsland in Victoria. 

So they're very alive to the regional issues because they live regionally and then, but they're nurses and and medical experts first. So it's a really good starting point if your regional is to get on to the National Continence helpline, it's free and really importantly, it's confidential. But they're the best in terms of pointing our consumers in the right direction to start getting help. And there are there are regional services and but it's important to be pointed to them.

1:12:37 Peter

The confidentiality would be very important as well, because it's probably something that, you know, you don't necessarily want to be broadcasting to the world.

1:12:43 Jim

Well, not until when we look back in 5 or 10 years, hopefully, if we've been successful and we've normalised it. But you're right, at the moment we are also focusing on groups that need more attention. So First Nations peoples and people from culturally and language, um, diverse groups. It's important for us to actually also talk to them because there sometimes might be cultural issues. That means it's doubly awkward for them to raise this as an issue. So we need to be alive to all of those sensitivities.

1:13:20 Peter

Yeah, we're out of time for this time, but I think we might have to get you back. We've got your details, so I think we'll have to get you back to chat in the future, because there's so much more we would have covered. In the meantime, where do we start if we'd like to get in touch or find out more, or even kind of in our own time, how can we kind of find out more? You got a website as you touched on?

1:13:38 Jim

Yeah, yeah, I've mentioned the website which is continence dot org dot AU. And then the, we're very active on Instagram and Facebook. So if that's your thing, go and have a look there. And then if you actually need help the National Continence Helpline is a really good start there. It's 1800 330 066.

1:14:01 Peter

Well that's pretty easy to remember - one 800, double three, double zero, double six. Jim, we will put that information up with our show notes. So if people have missed that they can go there and check it out. Again, thanks so much for your time. We wish you well and thanks for speaking to us.

1:14:15 Jim

My pleasure Peter. Thank you.

1:14:16 Peter

That's Jim Cooper. Jim is the CEO for Continence Health Australia -and thanks today. But obviously their services, as important as they are a great team is trying to normalise it, and we wish them well with their work. And I'm sure we'll speak to Jim in the future. 

Let's meet Sarah Richardson, who's a pioneer in the area of telehealth and particularly in the area of mental health. Sarah is with HealthBright. Sarah. Great to meet you. Thank you for your time.

1:14:42 Sarah

Thank you very much.

1:14:43 Peter

What set you on this path?

1:14:45 Sarah

Yeah. Look, I predominantly my my career was in general practice, mainly in rural medicine. And I really saw that need for, you know, providing those services that don't get out to the bush very much. So it was about, how can we actually service the bush a bit more effectively and efficiently? And that's really where I went down that telehealth path, really trying to help those people out there in rural locations that don't get services like we do in the city.

1:15:06 Peter

So... demand and trying try to kind of fill that demand.

1:15:09 Sarah

Yeah, absolutely. Demand. And just it also just gives them a little bit more of an opportunity and around different clinicians rather than just being, you know, whoever comes to the town, that's who you have to see. So giving them those opportunities around who they wanted to see was a really big important thing as well.

1:15:23 Peter

What about logistically, Sarah, how difficult was it to set up? Because I guess you can have a good idea, but then you've got to kind of consider all the nuts and bolts and all the stuff that goes to make it happen.

1:15:32 Sarah

Yeah. Look, in the very early days of telehealth, it was difficult to set up. There was a lot of negative... sort of thoughts around telehealth and how productive and effective telehealth was. But as we've sort of gone through many things, COVID being one - telehealth is a much easier platform now to really push and promote from from a telehealth perspective. And there's a lot of really good systems and processes out there to really help users. So look at the moment, it's quite, quite good and quite simple. But in the very, very early days, like back ten, sort of 15 years ago, it was certainly a challenge to make sure that we navigated the security and also built the confidence of the clients using telehealth.

1:16:08 Peter

That's a great point. I haven't thought much about security, but it was probably more important than ever in a sense, isn't it, in terms of stuff that can go wrong?

1:16:14 Sarah

Yeah. Look, 100%, I think, you know, all of the systems that we have in place is at the highest security level that we possibly can, which has all been completely audited as well off the back of our status of being accredited. But that's really important. I think people sort of look at the whole virtual aspect and go, well, can they see this? Can they see that? And it's all very strictly confidential and... completely secure from that perspective. Everybody receives very individual meeting room links to the actual clinician. So there's no way that a client can step in to your consultation with your client, with your clinician.

1:16:48 Peter

No crossed lines here.

1:16:49 Sarah

No.

1:16:51 Peter

What about in terms of I guess COVID, did that kind of mainstream, this kind of approach, if I can put it that way...

1:16:56 Sarah

Look, to a degree, to a degree it has, but there still is a little bit of perception out there that telehealth can't provide as effective, you know, health care to face to face. But when it comes to mental health in particular, there is no difference. When you're when you're dealing with mental health, you don't have to physically touch somebody to be able to help them with treatment. It's more about having that connection. So as long as you have a good visual connection and a good internet basis, then you can really connect with that person through video. 

And I think also given that there is that stigma around mental health, people feel more comfortable doing it from from an environment where they are comfortable, like their own home. Or we have clients that maybe go out to a park and sort of sit under a tree and do it within a park. So wherever they feel comfortable, then they can actually open up and talk about their mental health concerns.

1:17:42 Peter

Okay, this is probably more a parrot question than a question around even understanding what I'm talking about, but can AI kind of play a role in this, particularly going forward?

1:17:52 Sarah

In some cases, AI has its place. Yes, we certainly use AI for some of our psychiatry offerings to help us write our extensive reports, but the actual treatments and the actual consultation with the patients or with the clients is certainly not AI-driven. That's still driven by our clinicians. I'm not sure that AI is at a point where it can really sufficiently help treat and understand somebody's mental health conditions at the moment. There's certainly areas where it can navigate and help you sort of navigate those areas. But I think when it comes to solid treatment and solid effectiveness, I think that that connection with the clinician is still really important.

1:18:29 Peter

Yeah, that makes good sense. As you say, maybe if it's to kind of make the note writing a little bit easier kind of one thing, but actually the actual treatment of the individual, it's probably somewhere it's probably a good thing because I mean, I think we want that kind of human empathy, don't we?

1:18:45 Sarah

Surely we do. I think, you know, again, connection with with people is incredibly important for for our mental health, wellbeing. So I think if you're just connecting via AI that that's not good. If you think about young people today, they're on their phones and, you know, on social media way too much. And that causes a lot of mental health problems. So having that connection with an actual person is incredibly important to make sure that they're, you know, driving that. I also can't read facial expressions or watch what you're doing with your eyes or how you might be looking. So they're not going to pick up on those facial cues that somebody will from a face-to-face perspective.

1:19:17 Peter

I guess maybe more in the old days, if you like, you used to see your family, GP and your family saw him, and probably your parents saw him and your kids see him and so on and so forth. What about in terms of the way HealthBright works in kind of establishing a relationship with your practitioner?

1:19:32 Sarah

Yeah. So continuity of care is incredibly important for us at HealthBright. We're not the sort of organization that you come in. You see John Smith one day and then the next week you see, you know, Mary Smith. That's not how we operate at all. It's very much about getting that established relationship. So the first sort of normally a couple of sessions is where you start to develop and understand each other from a clinical and a client perspective. Obviously, there's going to be times where the client doesn't feel comfortable or they feel that it's not a good match, and we can help them navigate and find that that appropriate psychologist for them as well. 

Through our systems, you can go in and sort of have a look at all of the profile of our clinicians and look at when they're available, and try and match up what you think is going to be the best fit for you, and then sort of go down that path and journey. But we do try and make it as as easy and as seamless as we possibly can.

1:20:17 Peter

And if it doesn't kind of work, if there's not kind of understanding what I'm getting at, I can kind of say, Look, thanks, Sarah, but can we try, you know, go to another practitioner?

1:20:27 Sarah

Absolutely. Yeah. So you can certainly reach out to us and exactly say that Sarah is not really helping me with the direction I need to go. I really feel that I need someone with, you know, X, Y, and Z type of skills and treatment options, and then we will help them navigate through to that. Absolutely.

1:20:41 Peter

So I guess that's... kind of, you know, that that's part of life, isn't it? You're not necessarily going to click with with everyone you meet.

1:20:46 Sarah

No, no, this is exactly right. So it's really important that you've got that flexibility to try and find that... right person that's going to help you in that pathway. Because unfortunately, if you had the wrong person and you sort of stick with them, it's not going to help your mental health and your mental health will get worse over time.

1:21:00 Peter

What about in terms of kind of referrals? Or how do people get to see you or your... team?

1:21:06 Sarah

Yeah. So we still need a mental health treatment plan and or referral. We need that more so that so that you can actually obtain obviously bulk billing through our bulk billing brand and or rebates through our premium brand. So that's really important. We do have GPS available through our service as well. If you're unable to get into your regular GP or don't have a regular GP, which is fairly common these days, so we have GPs available that can help you navigate the complexities of getting those treatment plans, to make sure that you can then still receive the service that you need from a mental health perspective that we should get to.

1:21:39 Peter

Because there... that sort of GP or that... care plan, that treatment plan and the kind of role Medicare can play, that's probably something that has become more prominent since COVID.

1:21:51 Sarah

Yeah. Look, definitely - like mental health treatment plans have always been in place, even even prior to COVID... but certainly the push now to make sure it's gone from like sort of ten sessions to 20 sessions during COVID and back to ten sessions. So it's really important that we have those mechanisms in place. And we actually can't submit anything to Medicare without a GP registering that first initial mental health treatment plan. So that's a really crucial part of the start of your journey for mental health sort of fix.

1:22:17 Peter

And you (quote unquote) "specialise" in any particular area of mental health?

1:22:20 Sarah

Not really specialised. We have, you know, over 356 clinicians that work across our network. So I feel that we are able to really... look at most concerns from a mental health perspective. Certainly, you know, anxiety and depression and stress. They're areas that most psychologists really specialise in. But we do have a couple of niches around relationship counselling as well that we that we do specialise in and we do provide support. When you're going through a worker's compensation, which is always a difficult challenge as well. So we do have some niche areas that we can help you navigate.

1:22:52 Peter

How do you think you're going as far as what you sort of set out to do originally, and how it's sort of turning out? I guess you can have ideas, but it's kind of a a live document, if I can put it that way or live projects, it probably changes as it goes along, and maybe you go in different directions that you not necessarily foresaw.

1:23:08 Sarah

Yeah. Look, definitely, you know, since since I've been the CEO of HealthBright, I've made a few changes, which is really having quite a positive trajectory, really cementing that we have our our really premium bulk billing brand, which I think is really, really important for clients to, to to make sure that there's no barriers to access. So that that's going really beautifully. We have our more premium service around our relationship counselling and our workers compensation as well. So cementing those brands and the delineation between those brands has been incredibly important to make sure that clients understand where they need to go and how they navigate between all of these. 

So, you know, look, we feel we're heading in the right direction, and we certainly service a lot of clients every week and receive positive feedback from those clients that's helping on their mental health journey. We also track the clinical outcomes of our clients as well through our clinicians to make sure that what they're... actually receiving is actually helping them on that journey as well. So, so far, positive trajectory, which is great. But we're certainly here to help as many Australians with their mental health as we possibly can.

1:24:06 Peter

We hear about the health system being under a lot of pressure. What about in terms of either recruiting or maintaining your staff, or indeed, do you have sort of an oversupply, if I can put it that way, are there opportunities in the sort of area for people who are looking to... work in this area?

1:24:22 Sarah

Yeah. Look, I wouldn't say we have an oversupply in psychologists. I feel that we have an adequate number of psychologists. But certainly, you know, again, we are wanting to grow to be able to serve... as many Australians as we possibly can. So certainly willing to take on more psychiatrists, sorry, psychologists. Where it does become a little bit more challenging is in the psychiatry space. It's very hard to find psychiatrists sometimes. So certainly if there are psychiatrists out there that want to step out of, I suppose, what they're currently doing, and trial telehealth in more of a private capacity, we are more than willing to take on more psychiatrists.

And that's probably one of the biggest barriers at the moment, is that just purely isn't enough psychiatrists out there in the mental health world, and that's where one of the biggest barriers are. So for not just us, but for everywhere.

1:25:03 Peter

Would that be fair to say, you know, a bit of a shortage of psychiatrists at a time that they're probably needed most?

1:25:08 Sarah

Yeah. Look, yes, I think also if we can put better early prevention methods in place again, while we are really pushing that bulk billing. So if we can get to clients in a much earlier state before they escalate so far that they need specialist support, I think that's where, you know, government and sort of other agencies need to put a lot of effort into early prevention or early intervention, and at the moment we do a little bit of that, but I don't think we promote it well enough to really, really break down those barriers and really break down those stigmas attached to mental health. 

So I think if we could do that better, then potentially we can ease the burden a little bit. On the need for so many psychiatrists from from an early intervention perspective.

1:25:48 Peter

It's almost a form of preventative medicine in a sense.

1:25:50 Sarah

100%, 100% and we don't we don't do that well enough.

1:25:53 S2

No, probably a lot of doctors would probably argue that. Hopefully that gets better as we become more aware of it. And I guess people kind of become maybe more accepting of it. If people want to find out more about HealthBright - it's a great name, isn't it? Health, Bright?

1:26:06 Sarah

Like, it is.

1:26:07 Peter

Says it all, doesn't it?

1:26:08 Sarah

It certainly does. It certainly does. You can certainly go into our website, like Health Bright dot com dot AU - and that lists all of our brands there for you to have a look at. And you can reach out to our team and we can help you navigate through your mental health journey.

1:26:18 Peter

Sure. It's been great talking to you. Thank you for your time.

1:26:20 Sarah

Thank you.

1:26:21 S2

That's Sarah Richardson, who's the CEO for HealthBright. And as always, all those details are for our show notes. 

Just a late night through from Julee-Anne Bell, who says the only place she forgot to mention was Cowra. So if you live in Cowra or know someone that does and would like to go and see Perfectly Imperfect with Melissa and Julee-Anne, get in touch or consult our Facebook page or consult our show notes or the information is there. 

Speak about an entertainment club. Cool. Tomorrow at the Gov, the Governor Hindmarsh Hotel 10:30. Doors open through to about 2:30. Entertainment. Music. Food. Dancing. Great company. If you want more details, get in touch with Amber Kyprianou. 0408 848 649 ... 0408 848 649 - Club Cool at the Gov tomorrow. 

Just a quick note, a bit of a note to the Minister for Energy, Chris Bowen federally, and Tom Koutsantonis locally here in South Australia. Talk about the pending price rises for power. They say shop around. Easy for them to say. Not so easy for some of us to do. So just thought I'd point that out. 

A couple of quotes before we go. Terry has sent to quite through talking about a new word that's being used these days called Frenemies. A bit of a combination between friends and enemies. Frenemies, I think. Sorry for that. His quote is, never interrupt your enemy when they're making mistakes... and Chris sends his quite through, a bit of a dark one from Chris. He says, The powerful will do what the powerful will do, while the weak will suffer. So thanks, Chris, for sending that through. 

Some birthdays. Before we go, Amy Winters having a birthday dominated in Atlanta and also in Sydney on the track. Happy birthday Amy. Also, Jason Leeson having a birthday did so well in Paris and the sport of boccia. We also say a very happy birthday to Eliza Wooden, coach of the South Australian women's team for the Oliver Birch Championships. Happy birthday to you Eliza and Lily Durkin having a birthday from JFA. Purple Orange - a fine, fine advocate. A very happy birthday to you, Lily Durkin. 

Thank you so much for joining us today. Really appreciate your company. If you like the program, or even if you don't like the program, If you'd like to become a fledgling town crier and spread the word about the show, we'd really love that. Sam. Rick, thanks so much for your help. Pam Green, thanks so much for yours. Reminding you that Leslie is available on that favorite podcast platform of yours. If you're listening through 1197 AM in Adelaide, coming up very soon is your favorite Vicki Cousins with Australian Geographic. In the meantime, be kind to yourselves, be thoughtful and look out for others. All being well, let's link back at the same time next week on Vision Australia Radio. This is Leisure Link.

1:29:26 S16 (MUSIC)