Special

Jason:

Welcome to reframed the podcast about disability and media in this series we shine a light on how people with disability are represented on our screens why is this important because authentic representation matters media is powerful and more often than not they get it very very wrong. My name is Jason Climo and I'll be your host. Join me my co-host and a wonderful selection of guests as we review, analyse and score disability representation in TV and film [Music]

0:34

So welcome to episode one of reframed podcast the podcast about disability in
media primarily we'll be focusing on the representation of people with disability in TV and film. 

This podcast series has been put together and is funded by Attitude Foundation - if you don't know much about Attitude Foundation you should definitely look them up, they're an amazing organisation that tackles all things about the representation of people with disability in mainstream media and I guess for me my personal connection is, I am a person with disability and I work in this space a lot and I'm incredibly passionate about representation of people with
disability because I feel like it informs the unconscious biases that we all hold for disability and for and about people with disability as well. 

So you know you hopefully when you follow along with this you get a greater understanding of why representation is so important... because I think before I came into this world I was like... Why does it really matter, like how people are shown or portrayed on TV and film? I didn't really have that great understanding. So I guess our mission here in this series is to teach you why that matters, to teach you about the power that our creative industries have, and also to teach you about how damaging it is that people with disability are either excluded or just misrepresented in these industries in general. 

So the idea is we're going to also have a bit of fun it's not going to be totally negative the whole time i hope. I've got two amazing co-hosts that join me each week which I'll introduce in a minute... each episode of this series will also discuss one TV show and one film, just so we can kind of dabble in a bit of both.

And there'll be lots to do with, like, Netflix and Stan and things like that, and we'll be criticising a fair bit, I imagine everything from like really big budget Hollywood films to like something a bit smaller that's been, you know, Aussie-made... which I think is also very important because it shows that no matter how big the scale of your production you should be inclusive of people with disability and representing correctly... 

And we'll also on each episode have an amazing guest so we have our special guest we've got some really cool people people like Jason McCurry, Nas Campanella... and I won't give away too much but just to get you excited and to keep coming back each time. But for now let me just introduce very warmly my two amazing co-hosts Steph Dower and Robin Lambird. Did you want to say hello?

Steph:

Hey hey, everyone, really good.

Jason:

Thank you so much for joining me. What's been going on, what's new? You excited to get cracking?

Steph? :

Yeah, it's going to be great, I'm excited having conversations, yeah yeah, get  analysing these different pieces of media. So to help you all at home get to know us a bit better we've actually prepared some questions for each other. Nothing too juicy i don't think or personal but uh i'm not sure what my questions are so we'll find out that.

Jason?:

Why don't we start with Robyn first of all did you just want to introduce yourself Robyn and tell us a bit about what you do and your career today?

Robyn:

Yeah sure, yeah my name is Robyn Lambird. I am a person with disability, I was born with cerebral palsy, so again i'm just super passionate about how people with disabilities are represented within our society - because you know I think that leads on to a lot of other things like you know job opportunities and education and all those those big things that we sort of look at as a minority group. 

I've kind of got my eggs in a few different baskets, I'm an athlete, also do a lot of content creation around sort of telling authentic stories of disability and sort of sharing my own experience to mentor other young people... but yeah just stoked to be involved with this podcast and to really delve into, you know, what representation means to people with disabilities .

Jason?:

Yeah we're excited to have you, very busy person so... we feel grateful to have a
superstar like you join us. Robyn, I've got a question: you know, I guess when you were growing up as someone with a disability, were there any TV shows or films that you found positive role models in, or was it sort of rare to come across that? 

Robyn: 

Yeah, I think I've always been pretty aware that that sort of space for people would just release in the media was pretty lacking. I don't think I ever really remember seeing someone like me represented on TV, I think obviously you have sort of like your your X-men, like you know Charles Xavier, I think that was like the first time I really noticed someone like in a wheelchair in a movie, but obviously I mean he was like a superhero, so not all that relatable to myself... 

And I think you know i think things are changing, I think more and more we're sort of starting to notice that there's you know characters with disabilities and people you know that have like CP for instance in TV shows, that's really exciting.

5:42

Jason?:

Definitely definitely. I mean I think you're a little bit of a superhero to be honest, in my view, yeah.

Yeah and I guess we'll be talking about, you know, different characters, and I think we've got a good cross-section in the different sort of media that we're going to be analysing as well... in terms of like if people are following along and they are you know possibly like kids like looking for those role models, I think maybe we'll introduce something exciting into their life where they can find that
role mode. 

So like we don't just analyse the things like X-men, we have some relatable characters as well, so that's exciting for me... I think i'd really like to know from you though are there any kind of common tropes that you've noticed when people with disability are represented in TV and film?

Robyn:

Definitely, I think there's like sort of two major ones. It's... either you know people with disabilities are used as this sort of narrative tool to draw like inspiration, so they've like sort of you know like heroically overcome their disability to achieve something... or it's kind of this like whole narrative of Well, you'd be better off dead... 

And I don't really know which one is worse - because you know for a majority of people, like our disability is just part of who we are and it doesn't make us inspiring that the things that we do, you know, if anything make us inspiring and you know for a lot of people they're able to live like pretty, you know, ordinary... or even, you know, extraordinary lives with their disabilities... so certainly not Better off dead...

But yeah so sort of like either either the victim or you know the sort of the hero because they've sort of overcome as the two main ones I think I've noticed... and also, you know, using disability as a as a signifier of like being a villain as well, especially with the more visible disabilities. So yeah I'm really just looking forward to sort of delving in this podcast into you know people who just incidentally have a disability and, you know, the character is really revolving around that definitely...

Yeah definitely and I think especially with like the villain character a lot of the time it's people that have, like you said, that like visible disability or like, some sort of facial difference as well... and that is just such a harmful trope, because from like kids you can see as soon as they're like like there's so many horror stories people especially with facial difference where like, kids will just start crying because they've seen someone with facial difference... and then you know the parent might be like why are you crying and I'm like, Oh, because they look like this person, like yeah like a villain in a Disney movie or something that they've seen... 

And it's like that's so, I mean wasn't there a film recently called The Witches and
they had limb differences - you're just like, really, come on! I know it's like we're still going through this, yeah, it's like, surely we've got to the point where we can do better. 

Jason:

And that's like I guess the point of this whole thing is, some things are quite good - and we will talk about the good stuff as well, like I said, not just the negatives... but there's still so far to go - like we still need to have these conversations, which sucks because I wish that we didn't have to have these conversations, but we do... 

I mean I'm enjoying what we're doing here, but I wish that we could talk about, like I wish that we were just already into the future where we didn't have to talk about this and educate people all the time... yeah, anyway just quickly before we jump into asking Steph some questions, Robyn, just tell people where they can
find you on Instagram whatever it is?

Robyn:

Yeah Instagram's sort of the main one for me, it's where all of my sort of content is housed.. so yeah, just Robyn Lambird at Instagram is, would be a great place to find me... 

Jason:

Perfect, all right hopefully get an influx of followers or something

[Laughter] 

All right, Steph, now on to you - did you want to just introduce yourself tell us a bit about what you do, that kind of jazz?

Steph:

Yeah, so yeah, really excited to be on the podcast with you both, and really excited to chat to the amazing guests we've got coming on... but about me - I work as a filmmaker myself, so this is going to be some interesting conversations to have, you know critiquing and analysing other people's work when i'm trying to get my own work going... 

10:00

So yeah, but I run my own production company at the moment, Dower Productions, and I'm really interested in diverse and inclusive stories... I mean that's what we're all here for that's what we want to see, we want to see ourselves reflected on TV... because like Robyn I did not see myself reflected on screen, well...

As I was growing up... I use a motorised wheelchair for mobility, I like to think that I have a very full... life, I am a very social person, I love to travel, I'm, I try to be a positive person, and the stuff that i saw on TV or in film about people that use wheelchairs was so negative and so sad and depressing... 

And I remember literally seeing a character one day on screen and thinking Ugh, that life must be so sad, oh that I would hate that, and then literally like 10 seconds later I was like, Wait, that is kind of my life, but it's just not portrayed in the way that I think about my life. So yeah it was such a weird change, like yeah weird meta-moment kind of thing.

But like Robyn I also have a few eggs in different baskets - I also work as a disability consultant and a disability advocate at different times, so just, I guess trying our best to change the narrative literally, and to, you know, show the wider population that people with disabilities are literally people, we're not some mythical made-up creatures somewhere, we're literally just people living our lives just like anyone else, so yeah about 20 (%) of the population, people - like we're not unicorns... 

Jason:

Being a filmmaker you obviously, probably have a pretty keen eye for sort of critiquing film and television yourself. Have you seen anything that has sort of changed that narrative recently that you know you think is a great representation of people with disabilities, Steph?

Steph:

I think this is a really exciting time in, I guess, in the the psyche of, you know, film and TV production because we are starting to have more diverse voices on screen. I think that's partly due to social media giving people more voices, and things becoming more accessible to people. So in recent years I have been very grateful to see some progress in this area... 

A few ones that stick out for me is, the Peanut Butter Falcon, I thought that was a great indie film they came out of America last year sometime, stars a young man with Down Syndrome... and another one that I really enjoyed was a sitcom also coming out of America called Speechless where it was just a family sitcom, it was it was really funny, great family dynamics, but the main character, an actor was a young man with cerebral palsy.

So just I don't know, just shows like that and films like that, I really felt that authenticity coming through - and that to me just adds more layers to the story. And I think audiences nowadays are really smart, so we can we can see when people are sort of faking it or lying to us, so I think you know producers having to be more aware of how to make things authentic. 

And of course the best way to do that is to get people with lived experience involved in the production, whether they're the actors, the writers, producers, directors, crew members anyone... So I think, yeah as I said, it's a really exciting time and I hope we see more of these kinds of portrayals going forward.

Jason:

Definitely, exactly what you've just said, and like you know, we're getting smarter but also we can look up, like everything's on Google yeah, and like exactly, someone's probably written a blog or an article that like I'll find the answer to.

So I think that you're like our resident researcher Steph, because I feel like any time I ask you about anything to do with, like well obviously, because you work in the industry, but I feel like I like talked to you about a film or a TV and you're like, I read the book and it was different because of this, and I'm like Ah, you are amazing, how do you have so much time, I swear, do you sleep? Because you're such a busy person but I swear you always know like 10 times more than me. 

So that's why I'm really happy to have you on, and given that you do, yeah, thank you, you're like my expert... given that you do work in that industry, I really wanted to get your insight and to sort of educate people who who are following along as well about what the main barriers probably are in that industry like you said like in front of and behind the camera for people with disability to be employed in in like film and TV so what do you think those are?

15:09

Steph:

From the barrier that I have come across [indistinct] is the stigma of disability still and I think that you know it kind of it's like a Catch-22, like we need to have more positive portrayals and more authentic portrayals of people with disabilities on screen... but to do that we need to get more people with disabilities behind the scenes as well. So it's kind of which comes first the chicken or the egg?

But absolutely, it's the stigma people people yeah just go with, but it's definitely people looking at me, like... I have a visible disability physical disability, and so people look at me and they make assumptions about what I can and can't do, and that's based on what they've seen or what they've been exposed to previously in popular media and things like that.

So that's the reason that I am doing what I do, it's the reason that I want to tell stories that show disability and people of diverse backgrounds in different lights, to try and change and remove that stigma as much as possible and have society see us for who we are, not who we're not, who we were portrayed to be in historical settings.

?:

Wow could not have said it better myself, that was amazing, you just really smashed that home there

Jason:

So happy to have you - and just quickly before you two get to jump in and grill me, where can people find you Steph, follow you - yes, and maybe employ you for different things, because you do freelance...

Steph:

Yeah, yep, so i have a website Dower Productions-dot-com. D-O-W-E-R. That's probably the best place to go for me. I do have Instagram as well which is just steph11 - so feel free to check me out and send me a message if you'd like to have a chat, and yeah, I'm always keen to collaborate and co-design with people so uh yeah.

?:

Exciting. Well i guess it's my turn... so Jason, can we ask you some questions now?

Jason:

Yes get to it. 

?:

So do you wanna start with telling us about yourself, introducing yourself.

Jason:

Yeah, so hi, i'm jason, This feels like like a dating thing, I'm like... you two are so natural and I'm like, No... I'm Jason, I'm 25 years old and I am, my experience is in tourism and marketing. I studied medicine for two years, which was kind of random and didn't love that, and then jumped over into marketing and yeah, tourism, and then from there just sort of got a bit more passionate about disability um and representation.

I am a model, so I think that's where that all kind of started from for me in terms of where we are now talking about representation in TV and film is... yeah, in the fashion industry, things are moving, and what I find really interesting is, it's moving in a really like kind of tokenistic-fed type way I guess, like I feel like we see a lot of models that are like manual wheelchair users, but I very rarely see  people with disability you know modelling that are power wheelchair users and or like quadriplegic or something and it's that to me just screams tokenism.

So for me I'm trying to battle from the inside as a model, and trying to also get a little bit more work behind the scenes like assisting with, like you know, creative direction or photo shoots or...of a campaign. So sort of trying to move in that direction, so we have more power over the narrative as well. So i'm also now here doing cool stuff with the both of you, and with, yeah, being a superstar producer and posting a podcast! Look at me go!

No, I'm very very grateful to Attitude Foundation for... having me on - and obviously letting me have two co-hosts that are incredible um by my side. So that's where I'm at, and I'm excited to get into this with the two of you.

Robyn:

We're so excited to get into it with you too... and I mean your passion for sort of promoting diversity and inclusion within, you know, the media within fashion, beauty, everything, it really sort of shines through . And i was just wondering, we know you have an acquired disability, so you might have a little bit more experience I guess with the perspectives of the non-disabled community than say myself and Steph. How much do you think the current lack of authentic representation impacts the formation of ableism, I guess both you know internally and and externally within the wider community? 

Jason:

Massively... like in a short answer it basically informs, like, I would say, everything... so our creative industries, whether you realise it or not, the advertising you see on TV, the the show that you're watching, the movie you go to see, even the music you listen to, all that stuff informs you subconsciously as well as consciously about stuff, so of course, like, about everything... 

So of course it also informs about disability and people with disabilities... so, and that people disability aren't immune to ableism either - as in like, I have  internalised ableism as well as externalised ableism, so like I'll accidentally be ableist towards someone else, and it happens and like, I'm someone who I would like to say I'm quite conscious about my biases and I want to unpack that... so you can only imagine that, like, people who aren't really ready to start unpacking that or even know about unconscious biases or about how our industries like that inform our mindsets and perceptions of things, you can only imagine how far they've got to go.  

21:10

?:

I think that comes from people with disabilities being lumped into a group together, and it's such a diverse minority... well minority is probably maybe not the right word, but you know, I don't have the experience of yourself, Jason, who is a, you know has an acquired disability, who's a paraplegic just as you don't know the experience of someone who is vision impaired, or yeah, or hearing impaired, like I think... so that's where, that you know, we can easily fall into the same traps as other people.  

But I think maybe what we're more conscious of is checking ourselves, perhaps... yeah, check yourself before you wreck yourself, Steph?

Steph?:

[Laughter] good advice. So I guess Jason, in a dream scenario where you've created your own movie or TV series, what does the ideal representation of disability look like in your eyes?

Jason:

Well, people might get a little bit of a snapshot of that throughout this series because I've got a bit of control over who I can and can't invite on here, so that's quite good... but just, you know like you've pointed out already, each person with disability has different experiences, different viewpoints, different upbringings, all that kind of thing... and then there's intersectionality as well, where two different marginalisations will cross over and there'll be interaction between those within the one individual. 

So there's so much to, I guess, consider and represent. But the easiest way to do that is just keep inviting more marginalised communities in - and so that's exactly what I would do, I would just do my absolute best to make sure that everyone feels represented, that everything is as inclusive as possible. And the best way to do that is to just bring them in in front of and behind of the camera or whatever you're working on so that would 100% be what I would do. Yeah,  I love it - an ideal world I know, give me all the power and control!

?:

[Laughter] We need someone to check, Jason's dad, yeah...

?:

Well that was really good... and I think people will get a good understanding of who we are, what we're doing, what we've been doing and what we hope to do as well, on this... and i think now it's time to stop talking about ourselves, like we're not that interesting... and just get straight into our first ever media analysis which is on... we picked a good one, the Netflix series called Special by Ryan O'Connor.  

So let's get straight into it. Special is a comedy series on Netflix. It's a Netflix Original that's got a commission for short 15 minute episodes. It was created and stars a person with disability - a queer man named Ryan O'Connell. It's very interesting series because it's the first that I've noticed that has that intersectionality of being queer and disabled as well.

The series follows Ryan as he goes through some honest real experiences coming out of the disabled closet and learning about ableism and internalised ableism. You can watch it on Netflix and we're excited to review it. So there we go, there's Special, very interesting TV series indeed, and i think quite good. Steph what were your main thoughts about special?

Steph:

I think I was really excited when Special was announced, and came onto Netflix because it's not very often as we've all kind of pointed out already, that you get a person with a disability having control over their own show, producing, directing, writing it, starring in it. So Ryan was, kind of like, ticking all the boxes, which is amazing... and it felt really, because it was based on his own memoir, his own book, it, you felt that authenticity.

And I think what I really liked about it was, I think I got some things out of it that
perhaps I felt maybe ashamed - maybe the wrong word, but - like I didn't want to tell people about or i didn't want to talk about, it's like, it is that internalised ableism, and you know, trying to, I guess, blend in... because that's what we've kind of always been taught to do, is just like, do your best to blend in with the crowd, and to you know, not be too disabled kind of thing.

So I think I really liked watching Ryan's journey, sort of I guess... navigating his new life and taking those steps to reinvent himself. And I guess slowly become more comfortable with who he is - because I think that's a journey that we all go through, and not even just people with disabilities, but we all do that - you know, that's what 20s are for, right? But yeah, so I think for me that really came across quite strong, it was a different perspective that I haven't really seen before. So that was interesting. 

26:13

Jason:

Yeah, cool. And Robyn, i'm very interested obviously to hear what you think about this, because i think - yeah correct me, but I would think you would relate quite a lot?

Robyn:

Yeah, yeah. No, I loved this show - I think for me it was the first time that I'd really seen cerebral palsy... reflected in a way that i could completely relate to and felt very authentic to my own experience... you know, even you know tackling that, like Steph said tackling that... internalised ableism in that way, sort of coming out as being disabled, was a really interesting, you know way to put it.

And yeah, just like, even from the small things - like the relationship with his mum - you know, it felt felt pretty similar to what I've experienced in my own life a little bit, you know, a little bit of co-dependency happening there... and just, yeah, like the way that he sort of managed to sort of reflect the humor as well - I think that comes with living with a disability... you know, we find ourselves in some pretty funny situations sometimes, and I don't think it's wrong to sort of laugh at that, or to you know, to sort of exploit that for comedic value.

?:

Yeah literally, yeah absolutely, as long as we're the one doing the exploiting it's all good - exactly, exactly...

?:

I love that so much but you're totally on the money - and i think as well, Steph, like I felt the biggest thing for me was that Ryan, I mean Ryan was representing himself essentially, but the character Ryan was a person with disability that was so real, like he was layered and flawed, like wasn't this perfect one-dimensional or even just like two-dimensional... 

Like it was, like we got to see like all of the different things interacting and like the intersectionality was obviously amazing as well like being a queer person as well as being a person with disability, like that intersection is so important, especially for me because like I personally relate to that... and I have literally never seen that before - so that was a big moment for me. 

Jason?:

Was there anything... because i've got some stuff, though I'm kind of, like I'm not sure if that was great, like was there anything that you two probably would have taken points off on your score for Special? 

?:

Yeah, there were certain things that I think, you know, if they were to happen within you know our everyday life they would have been seen as, you know, a
little bit problematic - but I also think they were reflective of real experiences. 

So you know, like like you said, like Ryan's own internalised ableism, where he's sort of like, you know, I think he sees another character at one point and it's like, Oh I'd love to be like that disabled, that must be so much easier... 

?:

Oh my god, that's one of the opening scenes, it's up... yeah, yeah, which I mean isn't a great thing to say, but you know as, myself you know being sort of like an ambulatory wheelchair user, I have sort of felt a little bit stuck in the middle sometimes, I'm like not able-bodied enough to keep up with my able-bodied friends but also like my disabled friends seem to have things a lot more figured out because they've had a bit more experience perhaps... 

But i think it's also like the ableism you experience as well, like it's almost like you would ex... I feel like you would probably experience so many more micro-aggressions, because it's not so, like blatantly obvious as Steph and I with our wheelchairs, like... and that's yeah yeah yeah yeah, itself like so, yeah, so I think it was a tricky one in that in that sense because like yeah, there were certain things where I was like, Oh... but then I was like, well wait a minute, you know, that has been my experience, and is that something that we need to unpack.

And I'll be interested to see sort of when they go into a second season, when the episodes I think are going to be a little bit longer, just sort of where they take that - and whether you know that sort of is able to be looked into a little bit more, yeah. I think that was my thing because, as we we should probably point out, the episodes in season one were only 15 minutes each, so which is a very short time frame, yeah, to really get into these layered stories and all of that.

So i think that's where I felt the show fell down a bit was, the format didn't allow for the the writers and the creators to really flesh out the stories - and I think, yeah, as as you pointed out Robyn, you know having that internalised ableism or
that ableism shown on screen, is great for us to sort of understand what ableism is. However if you're someone watching it and you don't have a good understanding of what ableism is, you may see it and be like, Oh he's trying to hide it because it's something that he should be ashamed of, and we're like, well no, like yeah you know he's actually saying the opposite but you have to i guess have a bit of an understanding to understand that point that he's making.

So I think if they do go for a second, or they are going for a second season and if they are going for longer episodes I hope that there's a bit more contrast in there, a bit more context provided for audiences to better understand what is going on in his world and the point he's trying to make, otherwise we'll just keep doing what we're doing and we'll just tell everyone what's going on.

?:

It'd be really good to have Ryan on actually, that would be quite interesting.

31:20

?:

Yeah, I think I had like a bit of like internal argument with myself about stuff because I was like, Oh that's a little bit like not great... but then I was like, But he's controlling the narrative, like he's controlling his experience, also trying to be like as honest as possible, I think to be educational as well - like that was my interpretation of it anyway, so i was kind of like, No, I don't think i can criticise that because that's his real experience and that's his real, you know, thought process.

?:

So that's actually something that happened, so you know, the one for me that sticks out is the time when he goes on a date with someone and he basically said I can do better than someone who's deaf, and I was like, That's not great - but then I think again, on that flip side it shows that like, one, people with disability can be ableist, and two, we can sometimes just be like, it just shows that we're not like just disabled people, like we are people with our own going... people and prejudices going on... 

Jason?:

Yeah, exactly right. I think we've rambled on enough about Special - it's time to give our scores. So for all of you at home we have come up with this fake scoring system, so don't try and google it or anything, it's not real - there's pretty much no structure to it, it's just our own beliefs - which you know, probably there's a structure to that... but anyway it's called the Inclusive Disability Representation Scale - it's a bit of a mouthful but I think it explains itself.

It's basically just how inclusive we think the representation was in this particular piece of media - which today is Special. So Steph, on the IDR scale, what did you give special out of five?

Steph:

So I gave it a four out of five - for the reasons that we kind of already talked about. I think the format let it down a little bit, and whether that was like restrictions from Netflix or funding or whatever it was... so I'm really looking forward to what they can do in the second season because I think that's going to be the story that I'm really excited for sort of where he's flourishing as his true self and really more comfortable with who he is. So i think that's the story that I'm really looking forward to and it'll be the great following from season one yes he's out of the disability closet so hopefully 

Jason?:

Yeah exactly, living. Robyn?

Robyn:

Yeah, I...  look, I felt like this was almost perfect - again, just really looking forward to that second season, what they can do and just sort of seeing Ryan, yeah like you said, living his best life, just shining as a beautiful disabled man.
But I gave it four and a half, so I was a little bit more gracious perhaps [indistinct], I gave it a four and a half out of five as well [indistinct] amazing, like a harsh one...

?:

Yeah we have to have one...

Jason:

Yeah it's okay, yes Robyn and I like good cops and Steph can be the bad cop... no and very similar reasons, I think, you know, there wasn't enough, almost, time in each episode for those complex conversations to happen, so you know that internalised ableism in my mind,  I was like, Oh, how would like a non-disabled person who might not be as educated about this misconstrue this and think that this is like an okay thing to do or say... 

Whereas you know in in the future episodes I hope, I also hope that like, the character of Ryan - whether it's real or not - actually connects with some other people with disability and maybe the disabled community as a whole - but that that was me...

So: four, four and a half, four and a half - that's pretty good to start with, I didn't want to start on a negative note, so that's why we started with Special. We also wanted to start with something that was, you know, starred and directed by a person with disability, so... and produced by a person with disability I mean, so that we could set the bar i guess... 

35:08

So four and a half's pretty good... there'll definitely be some negative stuff, yeah, there'll be just some negative stuff coming up - though I know on the schedule we've got the movie Me Before You coming, so that's probably going to get ripped to shreds I'd imagine... 

But that's, potentially we want to know from you guys at home what you thought of Special and we want you to tell us each week what your scores are on that made-up Inclusive Disability Representation scale - so jump onto our socials, if you literally just google not google search Reframed Podcast on Facebook and Instagram you'll be able to find us. 

And if email's better for you you can email us at hello@reframedpodcast.com - tell us your score for Special, tell us if you any like experiences you felt was similar, if you agreed with us, disagreed with us all of the things we want to know what you think about this, and we want some like good conversation happening because the whole point of this podcast is to reframe how people think about disability and reframe how we're represented as well.

So to do that we need you to come on board and be our reframers - you're like helping us to do this and that's...we want you to be involved. So anyway, enough from me - thank you so much Steph and Robin, and we will see you all next time. Bye!

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