0:00
coming up on reframed along with this
0:03
week's special guest Luke Christian
0:04
today we'll be discussing careers Vogue
0:07
which I'm so excited to do sleigh bells
0:10
ring are you listening the episodes that
0:13
we're probably gonna talk a lot about
0:15
which is aptly titled disabled
0:18
people you're quite skeptical about
0:21
something love the sex positivity all
0:24
about that yes
0:25
[Music]
0:26
okay
0:31
welcome back to reframed the podcast
0:34
that reframes how disability is betrayed
0:36
in film and TV
0:38
I'm your host Jason clymo and today I
0:40
have the lovely as ever Stephanie Dow
0:43
with me as my co-host along with this
0:45
week's special guest Luke Christian
0:47
today we'll be discussing careers folk
0:49
which I'm so excited to do but before we
0:52
do let's say hey to Luke and learn a
0:54
little bit more about them so welcome to
0:55
the podcast Luke did you want to start
0:57
off by just letting us all know a bit
0:59
about you and what you do
1:02
hi everyone so my name is Luke Christian
1:05
and death I was born deaf and the deaf
1:09
Gene in the family goes back at least
1:12
six or seven generations so it's me my
1:14
mum my sister grandma Uncle cousin so
1:17
it's a really strong Gene within my
1:20
family history on my mum's side
1:23
um and for me growing up I didn't really
1:25
know which sort of Worlds I fit into
1:27
whether that was the death world or the
1:29
hearing world and people would always
1:30
tell me how I should be how I should act
1:34
you know as a deaf person so about three
1:36
years ago I set up my own death fashion
1:40
brand called deaf identity and it was
1:42
just a brand that I wanted to sort of
1:44
like break down barriers and smash the
1:46
old stigmas and just sort of make
1:49
deafness fun modern and relevant in
1:52
today's society and just sort of raise
1:56
staff awareness in that cool sort of way
1:58
so that's what I do so business has been
2:02
running now for three years just moved
2:04
into my own office so it was great win
2:06
to study and it's been great so far
2:09
amazing
2:10
I know Jason over maybe doing a bit of a
2:13
scroll through your shop recently and
2:15
just loving the the shirts and like so
2:18
good love it Christmas Christmas list
2:21
sorted there were so many funny puns
2:27
I tried to come up with you know funny
2:30
sort of death related phrases and there
2:32
was um one that was like a bit
2:35
tongue-in-cheek and it was basically for
2:37
a Valentine's launch and it was the only
2:40
thing that's turned on and my hearing
2:42
aids and that was just like smash here
2:45
and everyone just loves that one so yeah
2:47
right I think there was one about like
2:50
it's a quote from a song and it's like
2:53
the sleigh bells are ringing or
2:54
something and you're like are they I
2:56
can't hear that yeah
2:58
sleigh bells ring are you listening
3:03
just like that pattern just straight
3:06
yeah no that's been a really good one
3:08
for Christmas as well do you come up
3:10
with all of those yourself
3:12
yeah so I it's weird because sometimes I
3:16
could just be like sat eating a bag of
3:18
Chris just watching TV and then all of a
3:20
sudden The Fray just pops into my head
3:22
and then I just get it out so and yeah
3:27
yeah I love it I love it I mean
3:31
obviously you know that's I think that
3:33
for me is what advocacy can do is you
3:37
know in that function I think will
3:40
relate to it and connect to it
3:42
um in a in a much better you know more
3:44
emotional way so I love that um I try
3:47
and Implement that into my own work
3:48
where I can
3:50
um but speaking of sort of you know how
3:52
we how we tell our own stories and I
3:54
guess like take charge of those
3:56
narratives
3:57
um why do you think it's so important
3:59
that we do see that authentic
4:01
representation in things like film and
4:04
TV
4:06
I think it's really important because
4:08
when I was growing up and you know I
4:10
don't want to like offend anyone but
4:13
when I was growing up people in
4:15
societies think that being deaf was sort
4:18
of related the people that were slightly
4:20
mature slightly old and it's something
4:22
that you just naturally get as you get
4:25
older and something that I was really
4:27
conscious of when I launched the
4:29
business was to make it so that it
4:32
appealed to all different ages like I
4:34
was born deaf and so many of their deaf
4:37
young people they were born deaf as well
4:38
so I think it's really important in the
4:42
media to see people like yourself and
4:45
then you can relate to them and then it
4:46
feels like you're included and that
4:48
you're just not the only one
4:50
on planet Earth you know just doing your
4:53
own thing like there are other people
4:54
out there and what I love about social
4:57
media and I know that some people find
4:59
it negative and it can be quite dark
5:01
space for some people but for me it's
5:03
allowed me to connect with so many
5:05
different deaf people all around the
5:07
world so yeah no it's been great but I
5:10
think that definitely more needs to be
5:12
done in terms of deaf characters on TV
5:15
and I'm gay
5:17
and I think it's important that
5:21
you know film and director or whatever
5:23
push more of a narrative of different
5:27
intersectionalities within the deaf
5:29
world because I think some people think
5:31
there are their death and then that's it
5:33
but it's like for me I'm deaf and I'm
5:35
gay and then there's lots of other
5:37
intersectionalities as well so I think
5:40
just keep it growing and keep expanding
5:43
yeah it's so important to see
5:45
intersectionality and also those complex
5:49
characters like we're not just disabled
5:52
people or deaf people like we are
5:55
interested in things we have issues we
5:58
are sometimes we're terrible people like
6:01
there's so much
6:04
it's almost like we're human beings it's
6:06
weird right right
6:08
it's like we actually have lives
6:13
oh
6:16
all right well thank you so much for
6:18
joining us we're so excited to review
6:20
queers folk now with you Steph did you
6:23
just want to kick us off and give us the
6:25
rundown on career as Folk
6:27
um yeah so the show which is actually a
6:30
reboot of a 90s British and human us
6:34
series with the same name the show
6:36
follows a group of Club Going friends in
6:39
New Orleans who are dealing with the
6:41
aftermath of a shooting at a queered
6:44
nightclub so we're definitely throwing
6:46
back to some real world examples back
6:48
there
6:49
the reason that we're actually talking
6:51
about it today on reframed is two of the
6:54
ensemble cast are actually disabled
6:57
characters played by thankfully disabled
7:00
actors
7:01
um Julian who has cerebral palsy he's
7:03
played by Ryan O'Connell who you may
7:06
know from the Netflix series special and
7:08
then we've also got Marvin who's an
7:10
amputee and wheelchair user and he's
7:12
played by Eric grassy Grays I hope I'm
7:17
saying that right
7:19
um we'll find out but um yeah I have a
7:22
lot of interesting thoughts about the
7:24
show sort of as a whole but also the
7:27
representation so I'm Keen to hear what
7:30
you both think but Jason do you want to
7:32
kick us off
7:33
yes and I'm interested to hear your
7:36
interesting thoughts because I feel like
7:37
you're quite skeptical about something
7:39
like you've got some sneaky going on I
7:43
might play devil oh well I'm not
7:45
necessarily sneaky but I yeah it's it's
7:49
an interesting show
7:50
yeah it's an interesting show to talk
7:52
about but we'll get to my thoughts let's
7:55
hear your thoughts first well first up I
7:58
think it's amazing that we have
8:01
a disabled main character a disabled
8:03
recurring character and then we also
8:05
have Nao DeMarco who appears in one
8:09
episode as well so we have three
8:11
disabled characters throughout this
8:13
season of the show
8:16
um we also have intersectionality
8:17
obviously that each of those characters
8:19
are queer
8:21
um and disabled obviously but we also
8:24
have a queer disabled person of color so
8:26
I think that's also like a whole other
8:28
you know a whole other thing that we can
8:30
kind of celebrate and talk about
8:33
um because you know as I like to say a
8:36
lot of the time the representation that
8:38
disabled people get is usually the like
8:41
most palatable version of a disabled
8:45
person being that it's like a straight
8:47
white guy or a straight white girl
8:51
um and you know a lot of the time it's
8:54
quite two-dimensional too like they're
8:56
not complex interesting characters
8:58
whereas in this they were like very
9:01
complex I think the word messy was used
9:04
in interviews which I thought was quite
9:07
quite funny and quite true and I was
9:09
like I can get a bit messy so can relate
9:14
um so I think there's a lot to kind of
9:16
celebrate also worth pointing out that
9:19
Ryan O'Connell
9:21
um was listed as an executive producer I
9:23
don't know like how much of a role that
9:25
was and he also wrote an episode or
9:28
co-wrote an episode so yeah I've got a
9:31
lot to celebrate yeah there's a lot to
9:34
he um as far as I'm aware from my
9:37
research that I did
9:39
um he wrote two of the episodes
9:42
um I believe so one was
9:45
um I think the episode that we're
9:47
probably gonna talk a lot about which is
9:50
aptly titled disabled people and
9:55
um and I believe he also wrote
9:58
just episode seven sorry
10:01
um so it's great to see that that was
10:04
you know he's not just there to play a
10:06
character and he's not there Consulting
10:08
as an actor but he's actually a main I
10:11
think he was actually brought on to
10:12
write first and then the show runner was
10:14
like I want you in the show as well yeah
10:16
right that was interesting yeah yeah
10:18
yeah it's good to see like on both sides
10:21
of the camera that there's that
10:23
representation for sure yeah yeah what
10:26
did you think first up Luke
10:29
but I thought you know um episode four
10:32
so disabled people I thought it was
10:34
interesting because Ryan did an
10:37
interview and he was sort of talking
10:39
about you know sex scenes with nail
10:42
DeMarco who's obviously deaf and he uses
10:44
ASL in the show that
10:47
um Niall had to sort of rely on lip
10:50
reading and Ryan said that lip reading
10:53
is only 33 accurate which I think a lot
10:57
of people sort of think oh he's deaf or
10:59
he can just read my lips and you'll be
11:01
all right but there's a lot of you know
11:04
concentration that goes into it it's not
11:06
that straightforward so I thought it was
11:08
really good that Ryan was very aware of
11:11
that and there was constant
11:12
communication between Niall and Ryan
11:15
when you know sort of filming the
11:16
episode and just making sure that
11:19
the communication was there and the
11:21
understanding was there so I thought
11:22
that that was really really good yeah
11:24
some important like that the sets are as
11:28
accessible as they possibly can be so
11:30
yeah I think that's really awesome
11:33
Steph I'm really interested to hear
11:35
these skeptical thoughts yeah look I
11:39
might I mean look there as you said
11:41
there was a lot to celebrate about this
11:44
show and representation I mean anytime
11:47
we see any disabled
11:50
um or deaf characters in you know being
11:52
full sexualized human beings
11:56
um I think that's that's a win because
11:59
we do not see that regularly in
12:02
mainstream media
12:04
um which is a shame but
12:08
um so that was great I do have a problem
12:13
with the so the two um sort of endless
12:18
Ensemble so Julian and Marvin
12:22
um the the first instance that they kind
12:25
of have sex on the show both of both
12:29
characters are having sex with sex
12:32
workers and the sex has been paid for
12:35
which to me missed a very big
12:39
opportunity because it's driving home
12:42
that people with disability the only way
12:44
we can have that we will have sex or be
12:46
you know we're not seen in that way we
12:48
have to pay that kind of attendance
12:51
yeah I I just found it so really
12:54
interesting that it wasn't just one
12:56
character and like that would have been
12:57
one thing but it was both which really
13:00
really surprised me so yeah it's really
13:03
interesting because I think there's like
13:04
a lot to unpack with like the sex worker
13:09
representation in the show as well as a
13:12
whole and that's like a whole other
13:14
conversation but I get where you're
13:16
coming from because the storyline with
13:19
Julian is that his brother actually sort
13:22
of like tricks him into having sex with
13:26
a sex worker because so he pays which is
13:28
now DeMarco's character which is kind of
13:31
interesting because the sex worker is
13:33
the deaf character so it's kind of like
13:35
there's representation on both sides
13:38
there which is interesting yeah like
13:41
again tricked into yeah having someone
13:44
else pay for sex for him so that was
13:46
interesting and I actually kind of like
13:48
the storyline because I like that
13:51
they've like unpacked this whole idea
13:54
that Society thinks that disabled people
13:57
just can't have sex and that the only
13:59
way they're going to be able to have sex
14:01
is to pay for it
14:03
um
14:04
and there's nothing wrong with sex work
14:06
obviously
14:07
but I do think that there's something
14:09
hugely wrong with this idea that
14:12
disabled people can't just have you know
14:14
normal healthy sex lives like
14:17
non-disabled people can and I will say
14:19
like they both characters do go on to
14:23
have you know relationships with other
14:26
people on the show but
14:29
um I guess I've read a lot of like
14:31
articles and and sort of reviews on the
14:34
show as well and
14:36
um across the board a lot of people were
14:38
saying that these two characters their
14:40
story lines they could have gone further
14:43
but they were a little undercooked like
14:45
after the initial kind of getting with
14:47
these two characters that they do
14:49
eventually sort of have relationships
14:50
with there's not there's kind of like it
14:53
kind of goes a little flat there's not a
14:55
lot of you know obviously other
14:57
characters are more prioritized in the
15:00
series and it's difficult with an
15:02
ensemble cast you can't prioritize
15:04
everyone but yeah it's just I don't know
15:07
it just missed a few marks for me but
15:10
again like love the sex positivity all
15:13
about that yes
15:14
um but yeah it's it's different and this
15:17
is to be fair it's nice to be talking
15:20
about
15:21
sort of these complexities because again
15:23
we don't usually have the chance to talk
15:26
about these complexities because they
15:28
don't usually exist so it's nice to be
15:30
able to talk about it this way and you
15:33
know pick apart
15:34
what is you know pretty good
15:36
representation but you know just we
15:39
always want more right we always want it
15:41
to be just that little bit better
15:42
exactly better and more
15:46
yeah
15:47
um I think one thing I also wanted to
15:49
point out is there's a part where Marvin
15:53
says to Julian how can his heart be
15:56
accessible when the world around him
15:57
isn't I thought that was really
16:00
interesting and I I hope this isn't too
16:02
personal of a question though because
16:03
you can obviously just say skip it and
16:05
we'll edit this out but I don't know if
16:07
you have faced a lot of
16:09
discrimination within like the queer
16:12
Community being a person who's deaf
16:14
because I know as a disabled person
16:16
myself I have
16:18
um and a lot of the time it's not super
16:20
aggressive or blatant
16:23
um but it's interesting to see that
16:25
within marginalized communities like the
16:28
queer Community there's still a lot of
16:30
discrimination
16:32
I think um I've definitely like sort of
16:35
gone through the mail with the whole
16:37
apps thing you know like grinder Tinder
16:40
and all of that
16:42
um and some guys you know they've said
16:43
to me
16:45
um are in your photo you wear a hearing
16:48
aid what's that about and then I'll sort
16:49
of explain and I'll say that I'm deaf
16:51
but what I've used to do was I used to
16:54
sort of um over compensate so I'd say
16:58
stuff like I'm deaf but don't worry I
17:00
can still talk and I can still wear
17:02
hearing aids so I can still hear what
17:03
you're saying I wonder where hearing
17:05
aids and it was almost like I was trying
17:07
to reassure them that you know I can
17:12
still sort of like
17:14
be normal and stuff like that and then I
17:16
just sort of had like Turning Point
17:18
image sort of Switched and I don't
17:20
explain my deafness to anyone because
17:22
it's I don't need to do that I don't
17:25
need to justify it I am deaf and that's
17:27
that and then on the flip side I've just
17:29
had some guys who you know be talking to
17:32
them quite bit and then they found out
17:34
that I'm deaf and I've just been
17:35
instantly blocked and I think a lot of
17:38
I'm not saying all of them but I think
17:40
the majority of the queer Community
17:42
unfortunately do think that if you're
17:45
not a 10 out of 10 like you know you're
17:48
a Ken doll you're perfect six-pack this
17:51
that and the other any sort of like
17:54
difference it's just seen as now and I
17:58
think for them they just rather block
18:00
and just move on to the next one rather
18:03
than look behind the disability and look
18:05
behind the photos and things like that
18:07
so it has been difficult when it you
18:10
know dating and hookups and all of that
18:13
when my deafness is coming to play then
18:16
weirdly
18:18
um I've also been like fetishized and
18:20
stuff so I've had comments and they've
18:22
sorts that are you know I want to have
18:25
sex with you but um I want to take you
18:27
hearing aid that and stuff like that and
18:29
it's just really weird and I just find
18:31
it so inappropriate and I'm just like
18:33
why why would you even if that I don't
18:36
even really know who you are and you
18:38
start saying stuff like that I just
18:40
didn't sit right with me so then I've
18:41
ended up blocking them so it's
18:43
definitely like swings and roundabouts
18:45
but I think
18:46
as I've got an old time because I'm a
18:49
bit more like cut throat and just I'm
18:51
more stronger with my deaf identity and
18:54
I don't explain myself to anyone now
18:57
if they want to get to know made them
19:00
that's that do you know what I mean I
19:01
don't need to explain yeah
19:04
100 yeah I mean sadly I mean yeah those
19:09
issues are not exclusive to the queer
19:12
Community I think you know every
19:14
disabled person or person with some sort
19:17
of difference
19:19
um you know sadly faces this kind of
19:23
um weird you know
19:26
uh in interactions reactions all of that
19:31
um you know when we are sort of out in
19:32
the dating world or you know trying to
19:34
make that human connection with other
19:36
people you know because we are capable
19:38
of doing that and we want that so but
19:41
again this is why it's so important to
19:43
see more people with disabilities and
19:46
you know some sort of difference in you
19:49
know
19:50
um sexual romantic all kinds of
19:52
relationships in um film TV mainstream
19:56
media because until more people are
19:58
exposed to the possibility of that
20:02
um and that that is a reality
20:04
um sadly these assumptions and misguided
20:07
thoughts are going to continue
20:09
permeating society which is really
20:12
frustrating and really such a shame
20:14
because yeah we I think you know we can
20:17
bring a lot to a relationship people
20:19
just need to find out exactly yeah
20:22
exactly I think it's funny as well
20:24
because I think we're supposed to say
20:26
earlier it's almost as if Society think
20:28
that if you're disabled then you're just
20:31
in the house and you haven't got a life
20:32
and you just sort of sit there you're
20:35
doing nothing you know what I mean to I
20:37
think it's really refreshing and really
20:38
important that we do see in mainstream
20:41
media disabled people actually having
20:43
lives you know everyone's having fun
20:46
because that's everything that we do and
20:48
it's like important to get that message
20:50
out and not show that
20:52
the old stigmas and stuff like that I
20:55
thought it was really interesting with
20:56
Marvin's character which is kind of why
20:58
I brought up that quote before
21:00
he was very strong and Sassy to begin
21:05
with and then as the season sort of went
21:08
on there was a bit of like a breakdown
21:09
in that that character in that they
21:12
revealed a bit bit of insecurity and it
21:14
was all kind of around sex and the way
21:17
that they were treated by you know the
21:19
rest of the queer community so I just
21:21
thought that was like a really
21:22
interesting way to show
21:25
how ableism externally becomes internal
21:30
and it affects us ourselves and the way
21:33
that we do view ourselves no matter how
21:36
strong
21:37
we actually put up a wall kind of around
21:40
us
21:41
it does like permeate through and it
21:43
does affect you and it's only like you
21:46
can't control that
21:47
I think that's interesting because Ryan
21:49
O'Connell
21:51
um he's talked about like and special
21:53
deals a lot with it
21:55
um you know that internalized ableism
21:58
um and he's talked a lot about how he
22:00
has lived with that a lot um so I think
22:02
it's interesting that that is like
22:04
coming through quite clearly in the
22:07
writing of it as well so
22:10
um yeah no we're not immune to you know
22:13
all of that feedback that we have
22:14
throughout our lives certainly weighs
22:16
heavily on us and you know we start to
22:19
you know that's obviously gonna come
22:22
into our own thoughts about ourselves
22:23
and self-worth and that so yeah
22:28
stop doing that
22:29
so I wanted to touch on the
22:32
disabled people episode again just
22:34
because like there were some really
22:35
interesting things that I picked up in
22:37
interviews with Ryan
22:40
um and that is apparently in that
22:42
episode it's the
22:44
It's the episode with the most sex
22:46
scenes which probably isn't that
22:49
surprising considering they have like a
22:52
disabled disabled sex orgy I think they
22:54
called it a Rave yeah yeah I
22:57
thought that was so cool
22:59
that there was like accessibility
23:01
features explored
23:03
they talk about Hoyer lifts they're like
23:06
we needed to move this out of the way
23:07
for the Oilers to come and I'm like oh
23:09
my God
23:11
actually thought about this yeah
23:15
I just thought that was like really
23:17
interesting and obviously something that
23:19
I've never seen before in any other show
23:23
um which just makes me even more sad
23:26
that it got axed and that it's not
23:28
coming back
23:30
oh
23:34
that's enough really unpacking Queer as
23:37
Folk I really enjoyed chatting to both
23:39
of you about it and now it's time to
23:41
give our score on our completely made up
23:44
scale called the inclusive disability
23:47
representation scale
23:49
five being the absolute best disability
23:52
representation you have ever seen and
23:55
zero or negative numbers if you want to
23:57
be really harsh looking at you Steph
23:59
uh is the absolute worst disability
24:02
representation so we'll start with you
24:04
Steph what was your score out of five
24:10
three school that I give I preface it by
24:13
saying this is really tough up
24:15
um but this one especially because like
24:19
again I love seeing people with
24:21
disabilities in this sex positive light
24:24
because we don't see them usually
24:28
um so for that I want to give it a high
24:29
school but again I had a lot of I did
24:31
have a lot of issues with the with the
24:34
story lines with the characters
24:36
themselves
24:38
um I did find the show also as a whole a
24:41
little bit preachy at times
24:43
um there was a there was a particular
24:45
instance with a straw that I found a
24:48
little bit preachy but anyway I'll leave
24:50
you guys to watch the disabled
24:52
people episode
24:54
um long story short I'm gonna give it a
24:57
two and a half out of five so halfway in
24:59
the middle Luke
25:03
I'm gonna get down the middle I'm gonna
25:06
give it a three just because I feel like
25:08
with the story lines and stuff like that
25:10
like what Steph said I feel like they
25:12
could have pushed it and they could have
25:14
gone a little bit further with it so it
25:16
wasn't bad but it wasn't amazing so
25:20
halfway down the middle right now
25:22
I was a four I don't know why but I just
25:25
bloody loved it
25:34
that's interested I'm like okay
25:35
interesting so and so you just naturally
25:38
had to pick it to Pieces
25:42
literally literally no I'm just sad that
25:45
it got axed because I also think that
25:48
with
25:49
you know Ryan as a executive producer
25:52
and a writer they would have had more
25:55
space to really unpack a lot more and go
25:58
further
25:59
um and I think that's a big shame it's a
26:02
shame that I don't have the opportunity
26:03
to expand on what they said because it
26:06
was obviously there were a lot of
26:08
Beginnings to these characters that
26:10
could have been expanded on but yeah
26:13
sadly we won't get the chance
26:15
yes and then until they make another
26:17
reboot yeah all right well thank you so
26:20
much to both of you for joining me this
26:22
week it's been an absolute pleasure to
26:24
have you on Luke so so happy that you uh
26:27
made some time for us and anybody who's
26:30
looking for the best Christmas shirts or
26:33
Jumpers ever head over to uh Luke's
26:36
website we'll
26:37
we'll have to put the link when we share
26:39
this on social media that's what we'll
26:41
do yeah because they're iconic honestly
26:44
all those puns I love it uh thank you as
26:48
well to everyone who is watching along
26:50
or listening along we want to hear what
26:52
you thought about the careers folk
26:54
reboot
26:55
um you can let us know your thoughts
26:56
your IDR scores
26:59
um on social media if you search podcast
27:00
reframed or reframed podcast or on
27:04
Instagram Facebook and Twitter and you
27:06
can also email us at hello
27:09
reframedepodcast.com and just before we
27:11
finish I just want to say a huge thank
27:13
you to the community broadcasting
27:15
foundation for helping to fund this
27:17
series thank you again Stefan Luke bye
27:39
thank you
27:41
this has been a production of attitude
27:43
Foundation
