0:00
coming up on reframed today we'll be
0:03
discussing Switched at Birth along with
0:05
this week's special guest Emily Dash the
0:08
Elephant Room here that I don't love d
0:14
as a character so I didn't want to sort
0:17
of speak for that community and say this
0:19
is an amazing representation and I
0:21
thought that was like groundbreaking
0:23
like I I've literally never seen that
0:25
before this is actually a pretty special
0:28
conversation for
0:30
be be
0:32
[Music]
0:38
Happ welcome back to reframed the
0:40
podcast that reframes how disabilities
0:42
portrayed in film and TV I'm your host
0:45
Jason climo and today I have Robin
0:47
lamberd with me as my co-host along with
0:50
this week's special guest Emily Dash
0:52
today we'll be discussing Switched at
0:54
Birth but before we do let's say hello
0:56
to Emily and learn a bit more about them
0:59
so welcome to theast podcast Emily do
1:00
you want to start off by just telling us
1:02
all a bit about you and what you
1:04
do hi my name's Emily Dash I'm an actor
1:09
writer producer and I work across um
1:14
theater and screen so film and TV I'm
1:19
very very passionate about
1:21
representation of disability because I
1:24
have lived experience of
1:26
disability um and I lecture at UN in
1:34
media representations on
1:37
disability and I'm excited to be here
1:40
today to discuss one of the best
1:43
examples of disability
1:45
representation that I've ever
1:48
seen and I should also say that I'm I'm
1:53
really excited to do this podcast
1:56
because every night um me and my best
2:01
friend Todd who lives in
2:04
Brisbane we watch television shows
2:09
together and have
2:11
commentary um while we're watching on
2:15
you know what's happening on the show
2:18
and he was the one that introduced me
2:22
first to switch at birth which is what
2:25
we'll be
2:26
discussing um so this is actually pretty
2:30
special conversation for me to be to be
2:34
having well I did a bit of a a deep dive
2:37
into Emily anyway and I gotta say just
2:39
blown away uh by your bio just you know
2:43
working in so many different areas
2:45
writing speaking film making producing
2:48
like what haven't you done um it's
2:50
amazing uh but obviously we can see
2:52
you're super passionate about disability
2:54
representation and making uh the media
2:56
more accessible so do you want to just
2:58
talk a little bit more about why that
2:59
means so much to you yeah I think FR
3:02
representation means so much to me
3:05
because as we know the Mia is a crucial
3:09
way in which we come to know understand
3:13
and participate in the world around us
3:18
so media is both
3:21
shaped um both shaped rather and is
3:26
shaped by society and it is a way in
3:31
which we come to sort of
3:36
conceptualize things um as diverse as
3:40
you know bodies or the self or
3:44
normaly or disability or health or
3:48
things like that so when you view it in
3:51
that sense I think disability you know
3:55
media
3:57
representations become crucially
4:00
important so one other thing I'm really
4:02
interested to hear from you Emily is you
4:05
know we obviously know it's important
4:07
for media representation like on screen
4:10
but why do you think it's important for
4:12
people with disability to be hired you
4:14
know behind the camera as
4:17
well yeah that's a really important
4:20
question um I'm really passionate about
4:24
having disability representation both in
4:27
front of and behind the camera
4:30
um because people with disability
4:34
are
4:36
um you know we can be artists and we do
4:40
have a rich tapestry of experiences to
4:45
draw from um and
4:48
particularly if someone is telling a
4:53
story around
4:56
disability I think that it will will be
4:59
a much richer story and you know much
5:05
better
5:06
received if it really connects with
5:11
that um community on an authentic level
5:16
yeah absolutely absolutely it's one of
5:18
those things where you know there's
5:20
nobody better to tell the story than
5:22
someone who's actually got lived
5:24
experience right yes and I think that um
5:28
you know I think we're still getting to
5:31
that because I think sometimes people
5:34
say oh look we cast this person with a
5:38
disability um in this role and that's
5:41
great and I'm not taking anything away
5:45
from that but you also have to make sure
5:49
that the
5:50
story and also the ways that you work
5:55
are backing up that
5:58
community
6:00
absolutely absolutely you gotta I don't
6:03
want to say walk the walk considering I
6:05
can't walk but you know what I mean talk
6:06
the talk at
6:13
least well I think it's time after that
6:15
brilliant introduction uh to you Emily
6:18
um to start analyzing our TV show for
6:22
today which is Switched at Birth um
6:25
Emily I know you are basically the
6:28
world's best expert on this show let's
6:30
say that um so I thought to switch it up
6:33
we might actually get the guest to
6:35
introduce the show and tell us just a
6:37
quick synopsis of what the show is about
6:39
and why we're reviewing it I love this
6:41
show um Swit bir is a drama
6:47
comedy um that look is about two
6:53
families um whose daughters spoiler
6:58
alert gets which
7:00
sh and
7:03
um what makes that kind of interesting
7:06
in some ways is that one of the
7:09
daughters um
7:12
actually is deaf um and so a lot of the
7:19
and she uses sign language and so a lot
7:24
of the
7:26
um dialogue in this show is done in
7:29
American Sign Language and you do get
7:34
quite
7:35
a um a rich exploration of of of
7:41
um disability pride and death culture
7:45
and and things like that and it's really
7:48
quite
7:49
extraordinary yeah and to that point
7:51
there was a whole episode I think it was
7:53
in season 2 where the whole episode was
7:56
in American Sign Language um and and I
7:59
thought that was like groundbreaking
8:01
like i' I've literally never seen that
8:03
before I've seen like scenes I think it
8:06
was um a quiet place might have opened
8:09
the film with like a scene that was all
8:11
in Sign Language um I could be getting
8:14
that wrong but I think that was right uh
8:16
H but I've never seen like a whole
8:18
episode that's in Sign Language I
8:19
thought that was really like an
8:22
interesting an interesting way to I
8:23
guess like be really inclusive in their
8:26
portrayal of De people absolutely abely
8:29
and I think the episode that you're
8:32
thinking of the silent episode is
8:35
actually the episode where the students
8:39
are engaged in student protest to
8:43
protect the you know to keep their Death
8:46
School open I thought it was a really
8:50
strong um episode and a really strong
8:53
way to do the episode yeah I was just
8:56
going to back up what Jason said uh did
8:58
a little bit of research and yeah this
8:59
is the first time uh in American
9:01
television that there was an episode
9:03
completely in American Sign Language
9:05
with no spoken dialogue so yeah is a bit
9:08
of a uh yeah a leader in that sense I
9:12
wonder if it's ever happened again since
9:14
as well that's pretty yeah I'm but is
9:17
literally
9:18
groundbreaking
9:19
yeah and as Emily said obviously the
9:22
reason where rev viewing switch to birth
9:24
is that one of the main characters um is
9:27
De um Daphne I think like the best thing
9:31
about the portrayal of Daphne which is
9:33
something we like always talk about
9:35
right is that df's experience of
9:38
deafness hasn't isn't this all consuming
9:41
thing to the character it isn't the only
9:43
thing about her um she's a multifaceted
9:47
person she's got lots of interests you
9:49
know she's got um like dreams of being a
9:52
chef like there's lots of things about
9:55
DNE that make D DNE that have nothing to
9:58
do with her deafness and I think that is
10:01
the most important thing but by the the
10:04
same token as well the show still
10:05
manages to cover so many topics that are
10:07
relevant to the uh the de Community such
10:10
as you know cckar implants and all those
10:12
kinds of things so I thought it was
10:13
great that yes it's not all-encompassing
10:16
but it is still you know a very
10:17
important part of her experience uh like
10:20
with the world absolutely and I think
10:23
those arguments about coo infant or
10:29
speaking or not speaking or into a
10:32
dating or ableism and education and
10:35
things like that I think it's really
10:38
well done in a way that um is not
10:44
lecturing to an
10:46
audience
10:48
um it's done really seamlessly I think
10:53
um what I always say about switch at
10:57
birth is at it's
11:00
po it is a really smart complex
11:05
thoroughly
11:06
entertaining Dr you know comedy drama
11:10
about adolescence and young adulthood um
11:14
the fact that DNE and the people around
11:18
her happen to be deaf as you say is just
11:23
one facet of their experience and it's a
11:26
facet that's played out really well and
11:29
really
11:30
respectfully but at the end of the day
11:32
it's just a great example of that kind
11:36
of to yeah and I couldn't find any
11:40
information we like to try and find some
11:41
information about if there were any um
11:44
Consultants or writers or producers that
11:46
have the same lived experience but I
11:48
know um the actress who portrays stanie
11:51
Katie L cler um also experiences hearing
11:53
loss so you know possibly that's the
11:56
reason like or part of the reason why
11:57
it's um such a real
11:59
accurate and genuine portrayal yeah yes
12:02
I sorry I happen to know the answer to I
12:07
Love It Go For
12:08
It birth was created by a person who's
12:12
death there you go I should have done
12:14
more research get on it
12:17
J it's a really um interesting example
12:22
of of allyship yeah in that a lot of the
12:26
C and through Leed as far as I know
12:30
learned American Sign Language cool in
12:33
order to participate in the show Y and
12:36
on that as well they they made sure that
12:38
they had um Consultants that would sort
12:41
of make sure that their signing was on
12:43
par with how the character that they're
12:45
portraying in the show so for people
12:47
that were just learning sign language in
12:49
the show their signing was like a little
12:50
bit sluggish whereas you know the people
12:52
that were supposed to be fluent they had
12:54
to have really good good sign language
12:56
and then there were sort of like people
12:57
in the middle you know who were by
12:59
picking it up more and more as the show
13:00
went on so it wasn't just a fact of like
13:02
let's make everyone completely fluent in
13:04
Sign Language it's like let's develop
13:06
these skills as the character develops
13:08
which I thought is really cool how
13:10
interesting that's like some really cool
13:11
attention to detail there isn't it yeah
13:14
absolutely and I
13:17
think something switch at birth again
13:20
does really well is shows people making
13:25
mistakes you know the relationship
13:28
[Music]
13:29
between emage who is a death character
13:33
who's played by a death actor who
13:36
doesn't speak and is fluent in American
13:40
Sign Language
13:43
um and ba who at the side of the show
13:48
doesn't sign at all you know you do
13:52
really see that
13:56
learning and that making mistakes
13:59
even simple mistakes like speaking for
14:04
someone that I I think every disabled
14:08
person has had experience in is really
14:12
well shown int but absolutely I think
14:16
we've all experienced a range of
14:19
different things where people think they
14:21
mean well or they might mean well and
14:23
think they're doing the right thing and
14:24
they speak over us or they push our
14:28
wheelchair for us or you know even
14:31
opening doors for us when we might not
14:33
necessarily need it you know without
14:35
asking permission or actually
14:36
acknowledging what we really actually
14:39
need in terms of support and I guess
14:42
that's why authentic representation is
14:44
so important because otherwise people
14:46
are just going to have those assumptions
14:48
and it doesn't mean they're ill meaning
14:49
people like they're just trying to be
14:51
helpful and trying to be kind most of
14:52
the time but without having that
14:54
knowledge and that authentic
14:56
understanding of what disability is and
14:59
that's like the main thing I think like
15:00
real authentic representation as well
15:03
you know based on like current times is
15:06
also portraying you know other disabled
15:09
people you know showing ableism or you
15:12
know non-disabled people just
15:14
accidentally getting things wrong even
15:16
when they mean well um you know I think
15:18
we in heartbreak high that we spoke
15:21
about that um in a previous episode as
15:24
well and we spoke about the similar
15:26
thing where it was like it was such good
15:27
representation because other people
15:30
disability could identify with the
15:32
experiences because it really showed
15:36
people who meant well like n deed people
15:38
who meant well but still just kind of
15:40
got it wrong and and that's really
15:42
probably the main forms of ablism out
15:45
there at the moment like there are still
15:46
very know aggressive forms of ableism
15:49
out there but I think the main ones are
15:50
those kind of subtle um unintentional
15:54
forms of ableism that really just stem
15:57
from you know society's misconceptions
16:00
around disability and what people
16:02
disability want or need or can do I I
16:05
just love it when when a show really
16:07
represents that like that's when I'm
16:08
like oh that was good I think
16:12
that what's really interesting about s
16:15
birth as I said um is that there are two
16:20
main very very different experiences of
16:24
deafness you know DNE is a person who
16:29
um
16:31
speaks you know uses ASL but
16:35
also um verbally speaks English whereas
16:41
EMT for example is a person who doesn't
16:45
speak who uses ASL who grows up with a
16:51
deaf mother played by the incredible
16:55
Marley
16:56
Matlin um who who I just think is
17:00
extraordinary and so you just you see
17:05
these two very different ways of looking
17:08
at the world even though even though
17:11
both characters are death but there any
17:14
moments that either of you noticed
17:16
throughout the series that you
17:18
didn't think did a good job of being
17:21
inclusive yes kick us off Emily let's go
17:27
so one of the things
17:30
that I don't like about switch of
17:34
birth is um so D speaks for the death
17:41
actor that actress Katie L doesn't
17:45
actually have a death accent um she's
17:49
coached to speak that way um so for all
17:54
the great stes that it made in terms of
17:58
presentation it does fall down that way
18:02
even though I'm a great lover of swi but
18:05
it's one of my favorite shows of all
18:08
time um you know there are still things
18:12
that I can critique in it and be and say
18:16
you know that's not
18:18
great the elephant in the room here is
18:22
that I don't love DNE as a
18:27
character um
18:30
but I'm glad that she's there and I'm
18:33
glad that she's representing the de
18:36
Community but I don't love her as a
18:38
character but I don't
18:42
necessarily think that that's a bad
18:45
thing because I think um so often we
18:51
see disabled gries on screen that are
18:55
likable and you know that are sort of
18:59
the heroes and all that sort of thing I
19:02
don't believe that is the case here I
19:04
think D is you know can be selfish and
19:10
self-absorbed and ungrateful and just
19:15
like um yeah I don't love de she could
19:18
be a little more complex actually I
19:21
think and I think the thing that I would
19:23
like challenge anybody you know
19:26
especially non-disabled people when
19:27
they're watching show where they like
19:29
have a moment where they go I don't like
19:31
the the way this disabled person is
19:34
acting and I feel uncomfortable for
19:36
saying I don't like them like question
19:38
yourself why you feel uncomfortable
19:40
about that because I think there's this
19:42
thing where you know non-disabled people
19:45
feel like they can't actually not like
19:47
disabled people they can't not help them
19:49
or they can't and I'm like maybe
19:51
question your beliefs around that
19:53
because you know we have all those same
19:56
moments and we will will be terrible
19:59
people sometimes and we will be really
20:00
selfish sometimes and we'll be
20:03
sometimes like all of that stuff is just
20:05
the real human experience I think we
20:08
also have this idea like in our society
20:11
that every disabled person has to be an
20:12
advocate like for the community and has
20:14
to be the best representation of like
20:17
disability and a great spokesperson and
20:19
know exactly what the community wants
20:21
and maybe that's what they're I don't
20:23
know if that's what they're trying to
20:24
say with with Deany like hold up should
20:27
should this person like be you know the
20:30
representation like for for the
20:32
community like is them going to Mexico
20:35
and handing out hearing AG like the
20:36
right thing or is that just like you
20:39
know her version of deafness I don't
20:41
know maybe it's not that complex but
20:43
like that's sort of like got me
20:45
questioning yeah it's so hard when we're
20:48
like analyzing this stuff because
20:50
sometimes I'm like that didn't feel
20:52
great but then I'm like maybe there's
20:54
like a deeper like
20:56
story you know yeah exactly what I also
21:00
think is kind of interesting is like
21:03
DNE is quite
21:06
conservative in her political views like
21:10
she is pro life for example which comes
21:15
into play sort of
21:18
later
21:20
um where she really steps up when when
21:25
Toby is about to have a child Down
21:29
syndrome and I thought that was a
21:31
beautiful story line um that was really
21:35
well
21:36
treated um to see that family really
21:40
challenge themselves and come to terms
21:44
with
21:45
that um I thought it was really
21:47
beautifully
21:49
done um and I didn't think it was
21:52
overplayed at all but yeah I think it's
21:55
kind of interesting that DNE
21:59
at various points is is quite a
22:03
conservative um person in a lot of ways
22:08
it's interesting because a lot of the
22:10
time I guess you know the assumption is
22:12
that all people with disability are also
22:13
going to agree on everything too that we
22:15
all have like similar political views
22:17
and you know we all agree about you know
22:20
even like like I said before we all
22:22
agree about like language and we're all
22:24
going to be like advocating for the same
22:25
things and that's not necessarily true
22:27
either and that's also I think something
22:29
that needs to be broken down in society
22:31
is that diversity in beliefs um you know
22:34
political views religious um beliefs all
22:37
of that is you know all that diversity
22:40
still exists within the disabled
22:41
Community
22:43
um but I think there is an assumption
22:45
that we're all like on the same page
22:47
about everything whereas like I'm sure
22:49
the three of us have a lot of like
22:51
differing views and beliefs as well
22:53
which we won't get into because that's
22:54
not what this podcast is
22:56
about I am I think that
23:01
um you know the good thing about Swit
23:05
birth is that it doesn't just explore
23:08
disability it explores like things like
23:12
cultural
23:14
appropriation and white saviorism and
23:16
black lives matter there's a beautiful
23:19
sexual assault story line um that
23:25
happens in later seasons
23:28
um and it it just really doesn't shy
23:32
away
23:33
from the hard conversation you know it's
23:37
an ABC Family Show and I like to think
23:41
it's a real talking point
23:45
for families to watch it and be like
23:48
okay so what do you think yeah
23:50
absolutely I think that's 100% probably
23:53
you know I think we could be pretty
23:55
certain that that's what it has achieved
23:57
as well
24:01
unless anybody else has any other
24:03
burning talking points I think it may be
24:05
time for us to give our scores out of
24:08
five on the inclusive disability
24:10
representation scale for Switched at
24:14
Birth Emily did you want to kick us off
24:16
with your score four please points off
24:20
for Dy and
24:23
c I just love that everything's like hey
24:31
hey no you've explained yourself very
24:33
well it's it's great all jokes aside uh
24:36
Robin out of five what did you give
24:38
switch to birth yeah I give it a four
24:40
two um because of some of the issues
24:42
we've spoken about but also because I am
24:44
not deaf and I I must admit I'm not uh
24:47
too in tuned like with Deaf culture just
24:49
because of a lack of exposure uh so I
24:51
didn't want to sort of speak for that
24:53
community and say this is an amazing
24:55
representation um when argu I need to
24:58
learn more about that myself too yeah I
25:01
was also a four so we're all on the same
25:04
which doesn't surprise me um we've
25:06
already talked through a lot of it but I
25:07
think you know the fact that they had
25:10
like many different um betrayals of
25:12
disability like wearing disabilities um
25:16
the fact that they had like the kind of
25:18
diverse experiences of deafness was
25:20
really cool um because often when there
25:23
is a disabled character there's only one
25:24
and it's just very like one very
25:26
palatable vers
25:28
of what disability looks like um and
25:31
then yeah I I guess I took points off
25:33
moments that probably just didn't land
25:35
very well for me like they're handing
25:37
out the hearing aids in Mexico but you
25:39
know there could have been a a more
25:41
complex narrative at play there um but
25:44
that's why we get on and why we talk
25:45
about this and why we analyze and
25:47
critique and praise all the good things
25:49
and bad things and inclusive things and
25:52
maybe non-inclusive things because we
25:54
need to get the word out there about
25:56
like why represent presentation is so
25:58
important what inclusive representation
26:00
looks like and that's the whole point of
26:02
us being here right um so just want to
26:05
take moment to thank you both for
26:07
joining me on the podcast um really
26:11
appreciate you giving your time
26:13
especially despite some technical issues
26:15
um that is it for this week's episode so
26:18
thank you Robin thank you Emily for
26:20
being our guest thank you everyone for
26:22
following along um we really want to
26:25
know your thoughts so you can jump on
26:28
Twitter Instagram or Facebook to um
26:32
engage with us there leave comments on
26:33
our posts let us know what you thought
26:36
about switch at birth let us know what
26:38
you thought about our um analysis of it
26:40
if we kriged moments that you disagree
26:43
with or if we praise moments you
26:44
disagree with if you disagree with our
26:47
IDR scores um you can also email us at
26:50
href frame.com um and lastly I just want
26:54
to say a huge thank you to the community
26:55
broadcast foundation for helping to fun
26:58
this series and that's it
27:05
[Music]
27:19
bye this has been a production of
27:22
attitude
27:26
Foundation
27:28
[Music]
27:28
[Applause]
27:31
[Music]
27:39
I
