Tobi Green Adenowo: 'Luca'

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coming up on reframed along with this week's special guest toby and today

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we'll be discussing the disney film called luca so the intersectional uh queen

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there's some progress happening but we need so much more and it would be nice it would happen faster

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it's been a struggle um yeah i just like see pretty things that i'm like oh i love it

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okay big girl paddy's on you've got this

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welcome back everyone to reframed the podcast that reframes how disability is portrayed in film and tv i'm your host

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jason climo and today i have my wonderful co-host robin lambert with me along with this week's special guest

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toby and today we'll be discussing the disney film called luca but before we

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get into discussing luka let's say hello to toby and learn a bit a little bit more about them so welcome to the

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podcast toby did you just want to start off by uh introducing yourself telling everyone a bit about you

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cool hi hello um yep so i am a disabled woman who

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lives with uh osteogenesis imperfecta um i grew up in the foster care system

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and um i am a bisexual woman who is also muslim and i talk about it quite often

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um on tv um in podcasts like today

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and um i do lots of different like blogs and stuff like that to try and draw

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awareness and i call myself to the intersectional uh queen

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pretty much because i pretty much tick all the boxes not on purpose but

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that's how it kind of came about but yeah i was born with a muslim name all

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my family are muslim and i always like to talk about you know what what it was like being in the foster care system etc

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etc i'm also a dancer um i've been dancing for most of my life since i was

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about 13 years old uh i do contemporary afrobeats all kinds

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of different dances indian all kinds and i use a wheelchair um full time

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but yeah so that's me i mean i've also i've broken 78 bows

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and i am only 29 years old so yeah my experience has been a bit

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crazy and i also lived in 18 different foster homes as well so i've got quite a story

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that's got to be like one of the most in-depth introductions we've ever had that's like you got everything going

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yes literally and just to add i was the first disabled black woman to work with

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mtv uk as well wow yeah awesome let's get to that like

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very soon but very important question first does uh the intersectional queen roll does that

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come with like a really cool crown well i've got my own crown you see it's

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called an afro yeah so yeah i love that yeah

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um i hold it dear to me because it's it's like a badge almost you know a badge of honor i'm proud of it yeah you

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sound very proud about that that's awesome did you want to maybe explain a little bit more to our listeners about what intersectionality means because i

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think a few of them might not have really heard of that term too much sure so

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i don't know how it came about but to my knowledge intersectionality is when a person um

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kind of fits various tick box exercises as such so

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they kind of um cover all different um minorities that generally are not given

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enough opportunities and given enough chances to speak in

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professional settings i believe that's how intersectionality came about perhaps

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if you're disabled and you happen to be part of the lgbtq community that means

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you would be a you know an intersectional person because you have two um minority

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groups that you've kind of fit into so that's what it basically means perfect

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yeah and i guess why do you think it's so important that you know i guess why is it so important to you that people with disability are

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represented in general but i think you'll probably take a very a more in-depth lens and talk about

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intersectionality as well possibly i think it's really important because

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we're in 2022 now and um there's so much opportunity

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um create room in um these new markets that are

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coming out and trying to be inclusive um keyword trying um i think just adding

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disability to it actually adds a really like important

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um line there because anyone can be disabled at any point in their life

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um or they may have somebody that's in their family that they might not understand

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and they proudly say oh i've got someone who's disabled in my family but they don't truly understand what that means

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and so it's really important for representation to be out there for

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family members for children for elderly people for all kinds of people from different age groups to actually

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understand what it means to have a disability specifically yeah and i'm

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really curious you mentioned that you're a wheelchair dancer which is um very exciting i was curious though how have

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you found those spaces to be particularly inclusive or have you sort of struggled to gain representation in

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that area it's been a struggle i changed the national curriculum for

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gcse dance in the uk uh when i was around 14.

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so it was it was hard because i really had to like

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i had to fight a lot for myself for my friend uh he is he used electric

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wheelchair and my other friend who has an intellectual disability so before instagram or before social media i've

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always been really really um passionate about like inclusion and um especially in the dance

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world because i think dance is what i love about dance is you can

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literally move uh in dance with just your eyes or your head and that was one of the things that

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my friend was doing in his exam and i i we fought for that especially myself i

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fought for that um so i just i think dance is getting there

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but it's still very very um linear in terms of um opportunities to

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be in broadway in um you know in big shows that are across the country um

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it's really hard to see representation uh still

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um but yeah i think i think it's getting better but it it needs work definitely like most of our

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industries i feel like there's some progress happening but we need so much more and it would be nice

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it would happen faster exactly hurry up literally and on that did you want to um

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i love that you were one of the first black disabled women women to work with mtv did you want to tell us a bit more

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about that yeah so do you know what it kind of happened by accident

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um a friend yeah like a friend of mine we kind of been working

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together with a it's a project called the tope project um it basically

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came about because a young person from the foster care system sadly took their life and

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around christmas time so around christmas time they created a place a space

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of love and acceptance and um where care leavers of all walks of life

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could come on christmas day and not be by themselves what we would do is go to different

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companies and share our stories and and give people

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an understanding of what it means to be actually intersectional um and what does that look like and

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because often what happens when people want to include disabled people or black people or

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or the lgbtq community they do not think about the crossover of living in foster

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care or something like that and not coming from such a privileged life

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so um basically a day we all went out on a day

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out to empty no in what's called in viacom that's it to viacom so viacom is

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like it's like it covers uh nickelodeon channel 5

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mtv bet all that so we met with all the kind of like

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top directors producers etc etc and we literally sat

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there and we did a few games and stuff like that and we went round in the table there was like different tables

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and you'd get a certain amount of time to speak to them so

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essentially i was the only person who had a visible disability

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and i wanted to make sure that i represented it well

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not just because i'm a black woman but because of the fact that i am disabled and there are lots of people who come

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from the foster care system who get forgotten from the disabled community so um

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i sat down um and spoke to this lady who works for bet

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and mtv and stuff like that and i was scared however i knew that this was my

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chance to make you know make a real difference so i was like okay

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big girl paddy's on you've got this literally

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okay it's fine it's fine i'm good um

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but yeah so i just sat in front of this lady and she looked so at first she was so stern and serious

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and i kind of just made a bit of a you know i just made a bit of a joke of it and just kind of told you i gave her a

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rundown of who i am what i do blah blah blah why it's really important to be inclusive and that um beyond today i

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would love to like work with you guys on real inclusivity

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um and there was some pushback you know a few other other people in other departments um

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i can't say what just other departments were very they were very like yes well we you know

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we've we've hired disabled uh um inclusion people and and i'm like okay

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but is that inclusion person able-bodied because often able-bodied people speak

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for us and i have a problem with that because those who actually live with

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disabilities have the skills and they're not being hired and they are living below the poverty line and you're taking

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up their space so uh anyway eventually she was like do you know what i like

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and i said i like you too so she was like you've got to come back

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so i came back and i dressed all night i had my afro out i was giving

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i

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so i was like really ready for it and um i really just explained everything i

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showed um the inclusion team and this lady

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you know different people who are on instagram at the moment and making lots of changes and differences from all

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different walks of life and that if they sort of had me on i would be able to

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include these people um and essentially i want to create my own like

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tv network or tv channel for disabled actors singers dancers and producers and

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so on to give them proper um representation rather than a little snippet of like a documentary

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or something because we're more than documented and we're more than just two minutes of

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um a clip so yeah essentially she then said you know okay we'll get back to you and then

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that yeah the rest was history i came back and i filmed lots of times it was

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so much fun the first thing i did was um was about fear

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and um it was with a young man who he contracted hiv his first time having um

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you know a relationship and um he talks about his experience being a

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gay man and he uses his poetry so well i love him to

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pieces and i i then spoke about my experience being

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in the foster care system and how both of us we use our art um here's his

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poetry mine is dance how we use our art um to be our power and our strength

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and to overcome those fears you know um being part of the lgbtq community and

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being you know disabled and blah blah so um you you know feel free to look it up

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it's on just put mtv toby or something like that and it'll come straight up and

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you'll see um it's there but yeah it was it was so much fun and uh hopefully this year

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we'll be able to do some more stuff that would be amazing definitely let me know as well because i'd love to share

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that stuff on my own instagram which speaking of um before we head over to

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analyze luca the film the disney film i just wanted to give you the opportunity to uh let all of our people following

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along our reframers know where they can find you on social media how they could

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possibly work with you if they wanted to or if they just want to follow you yes so i have a page on instagram and

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twitter and i believe facebook called tough cookie tea t-o-u-g-h

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cookie t-e-e um and i believe i've also got a youtube

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channel as well where i talk about being in care and stuff and i also have created something called

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disabled black power tv uh we haven't launched anything at the moment but we're hoping to this year um

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to share some more information about different people who are out there who are disabled and black

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cool if it sounds awesome again definitely let me know when that launches that sounds really cool

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and everybody go follow toby she's obviously amazing and so much fun [Music] [Laughter]

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now i think it's time to analyze luka robin did you just want to give us a bit of an overview of luca so luca is an

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animated disney film it's a little bit of a coming of age story i think with a bit of a fantasy twist um and it follows

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luca who's a sea monster um that discovers he has this ability to

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take human form and he then goes and explores the french riviera with his friend alberto and i guess

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of interest to us uh he he meets a character named julia along the way i think while he's trying to escape from a

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bully or something like that um and julia's dad massimo uh has a disability he is an amputee um and that is

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portrayed in the film and i love this so

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um toby did you want to kick us off and just let us know what you've like felt and thought about the disability

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representation in the film yeah i liked that they didn't make it like a

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big thing um there was a moment that i

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realized um i can't remember who it was but they were scared of of him but i don't think it was based on the

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arm on his arm missing i think it was just the face that he's quite big uh he's quite bored he's kind of a scary

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looking guy he's massive like like it's pretty scary-looking

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yeah so i liked i liked that for some reason i liked it because it humanized

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him it made him more human you know what i mean and he he told you know he told the story that shark or something bit

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bit him or whatever yeah it was just funny i don't know i liked how he just didn't make it a big thing

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you know what i mean and the kids just accepted it yeah i love them yeah yeah i think um one of the um main

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characters asks or sort of looks and looks like at his arm

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um and then he notices and then he says to them oh i see monster took it because like

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obviously spoilers the whole thing is that like the town hates the sea monsters and then

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they like make up at the end um and he makes this joke that a sea monster took out and then he says no i just came into

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the world this way and i really loved that because it was just like this and then the kids were just like okay like

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it was just this perfect moment where i was like that's how it should be i loved yes and also like it just reminded me of

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like my experiences of like talking to kids about like my physical disability as well because i'm a manual wheelchair

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user um and kids are just so much more like you're inquisitive but as soon as you

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tell them they're just like okay that's what that is moving on can you push me on the swing now

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yeah literally yeah but like as long as you can like entertain me and like get me

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food or something i'm fine but i feel like adults are the ones that have like all the hang-ups attached but

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yeah i loved it too because i think like the media so often focuses on like some

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kind of tragic backstory and for like so many of us it's just how we were born like everyone

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asked me oh my gosh what happened to you and it's like well my mom had me and then here i am like

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so also like you know you could say that i had like a tragic story because i

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acquired my impairment but like i don't want to talk about it all the time especially not with strangers

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in those films yeah even like animation films like if they were like explaining what happened

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and like how did this happen i'm like this just instills in people watching that it's like okay to ask because

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they're going to get an answer whereas like when people ask me i'm like it's not a business yeah so as i'm not

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telling you yeah

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i feel good on that one yeah but i'm glad like you guys both agree i've loved it so much um and

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i feel like for me it was all about i guess the way that there was like no

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reaction as well from anyone else in town like they just all knew him as massimo and that was just it

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like it wasn't like yeah there was no like i guess no hang-ups about the fact that he was a person with disability and they

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respected him as well they respected him it that's what i liked i and he made the

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final decision when at towards the end spoiler towards the end um literally

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they were gonna kill the sea monster the luca and his friend and literally he he

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kind of like stepped up and like was kind of like the leader of the town as such

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and i love that like yes come on leadership yeah i'm here for it

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they just showed like really interesting ways of how he kind of had adapted to life without making it a big deal as

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well i was just like a dad at the end of the day too like yeah yeah yeah yeah

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yeah it was super dope yeah i'm so glad i'm so glad they they

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made that and literally i'm gonna suggest it to anyone who

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who has kids because even if they don't have kids i think that it's a good movie to watch you know i mean because yeah

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it's a feel good as well as it's quite a good lesson to learn yeah um i think i kind of wrote because

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i wrote some notes and um i felt like

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even with the whole like stigma about like sea monsters and people being afraid of sea monsters

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um i think that that's that's so poignant like with the times

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that we're in right now because it's them and us kind of thing you know

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what i mean yeah everyone's very much

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fear does not get you anywhere it doesn't it doesn't get you anywhere and i think

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um them highlighting that i mean even um luca's parents were fearful of him you

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know going on land and she they forbid him to go and

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you know i loved oh what was the i think i wrote it down there was

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um you said silence oh i did i did silencio something

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before they do stuff like before because basically bruno yeah yeah that's it's valencia

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bruno that's it yeah yeah before like literally he wanted both luca and his friend garcia was it

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garcia or something alberta i don't remember anyway yeah alberto that's it there we go

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i don't know where i got anyway um uh i liked that when they wanted to

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build their bike and they wanted to go down the hill with the bike you know he was luca was really scared and

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he was like just say salazio bruno and then he just did it and again another

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lesson to learn um about just being fearful and scared like

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once you overcome those fears it really it it's

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i don't know like your your body is at ease as such and you become much more accepting of people which is what we

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really need right now you know with so many different groups it would have been really easy for them

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as well to like fall into a bit of a trap where like massimo was like really

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um you know related to the sea monsters because he was different too and i loved

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that they didn't do that like i really felt like they would well i really felt like at one stage

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they were going to fall into that trap and be like i'm different too that's why i relate to

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them or something i think like we um we talked about shape of water last season and they really did that in that yeah it

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was like i thought that's where yeah where it was like yes disability is not the same as like a monster like

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yeah exactly yeah yeah yeah yeah so yeah and i like love the overall themes

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of acceptance so i love what you're saying there toby about like the lessons that we take away are so important

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especially with kids movies there's always hidden lessons in there so i love that like disability was was throwing in

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there as well so yeah i did i did a little bit of digging actually and i found out that one of the uh one of the

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guys from the camp documentary uh actually did a bit of consulting on the film so that's i think one of the

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reasons why it was such a good portrayal is because as always when you have people with that lived experience behind

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the narrative it tends to come out a little bit better hey the only thing i actually also didn't look up was whether

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the person who voiced the character was a person with disability i didn't either i know i think i'm gonna have to look

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that up guys and then i'll do we'll make sure we put it out on social media and let you guys know yes um because that's

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always such an important thing it's like our two things that we always bang on about is that like genuine representation is so important hire

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disabled people in the role but also hire them behind the camera as well so um yeah i love that they've they've got

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that consulting yeah that's so good yeah i do have one criticism we love it

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we love it let's hear it yeah get it um

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i felt that there wasn't enough diversity in terms of um race

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that's my only criticism other than that i really liked the film um but i just felt like you know there

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are people um in that town that are people of color so i think you know it

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would have been good to you know sprinkle that in but again

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at the same time um i think as people say change happens very slowly

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and so we have to be patient so i am grateful that it's even come out and

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there's a part of that you know i mean but that's my only other than that i'm ah but i

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think we have to we have to talk about those things right because that's how things get better so you know there could have been other characters with

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disability as well because like surely he wasn't the only person with a disability experience in that whole town

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so you know there's it was nowhere near i mean not nowhere near but it wasn't perfect and i think we should definitely

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you know reign it in because i think sometimes when we see something that's good we're like this is amazing when actually it's like no this is good what

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we're actually striving for is a bit more than that um and i think that's really important and i guess on

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affecting change like i love seeing disability representation in kids films like i love it because

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sort of on this like similar i guess um pathway is like inclusive education is i

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think the most effective way to actually create change into the future is actually like changing the perceptions that our

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children have why young people have of disability because you know obviously the youth is the future and all of that

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kind of can't be what they can't see right so they can't be these accepting people they don't get exposed to that

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yeah but that's why i think like it's so awesome to see disney like get on that and do a solid job of it and

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also like you've said robin hire disabled people you know i guess not behind the camera

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but behind the scenes i guess we'll say to actually like steer that narrative correctly because

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i think it's like you know i think like if i could choose like one type of film

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that would be like perfectly inclusive right now it would be like kids films because we will see the impacts like in

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10 years time it'll just make a huge difference but also like

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adults learn so much from disney films yeah and we all let's let's be all honest like we do have that inner child

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in us it doesn't ever go away um as much as you know there's lots of things that

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we have to deal with as adults we are really all still you know children at heart um when we

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get the chance to be children we you know we we fully dive in and have fun with the kids so

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you know it is important um it makes it a lot more fun it's a good

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um conversation if they wanted to have it later on they could because they what

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sat down and watched the movie um together as a family that had something

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slightly different i don't know though if i'm gonna i think what i'm gonna do i'm gonna ask a few of my friends to

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watch the movie i wanna see what they say because i'm not sure whether they would have even

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recognized like um how do i explain like i don't think

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because like how you said it wasn't um it was subtle yeah that way yeah so

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yeah i don't know whether it will be kind of like a subliminal for them which would be

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good you know what i mean because sometimes when it's too obvious like we said before it's just a bit like cringe

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so i want to know like what other people um who are able-bodied

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um think when they watch it are they taking that lesson in i hope

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i hope they are not lesson but um just appreciating it there we go like

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appreciate yeah and possibly not but i think like even when they don't i guess like consciously

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register disability and consciously register and appreciate it it's the subliminal messaging as well behind it

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all it's like if we saw in every single um disney movie like a disabled character like that that was included

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incidentally and it was like subtle enough that it wasn't like this big hoo-ha

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um we would all eventually like subconsciously just start registering that as like normal like because we know

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that it is normal that it would actually start actually normalizing i think that's that's even more powerful right

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like if we can just watch something and not even pick up disability just appreciate the character

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like that's what we want we want to just be appreciated as people not necessarily just as disabled people so

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yeah literally yeah it's a good blueprint i think it's a good video and

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it is definitely it makes it easier for like myself for example when i go into

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um rooms that i have to speak to specific producers and directors and stuff and

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they're like okay so give us the ideas and i'm like well so it kind of helps it kind of helps to

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have something that i can kind of refer to and get them to do some homework of their own and actually

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make you know a conscious effort right we like giving people homework it's not all our responsibility

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[Laughter] literally literally you go do it okay

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i think it's time to give our scores out of five on the inclusive disability representation scale robin did you want

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to kick us off yeah i gave it a four and a half i thought it was it was pretty good maybe it is because we're getting

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excited because it's adorable and whatever but yeah i thought it was a really good opportunity for kids and and

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you know the adults who are forced to watch alongside them to just be exposed to disability in a way that i would want

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my disability to be seen just as part of who i am um and yeah i love that and then obviously when i did a bit more digging

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and i found out that you know disabled people were consulted and it kind of made sense so yeah i loved it i think

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for me it's a four out of five because i think there was still that opportunity for a bit more

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depth in there um he was an amazing character i loved that so much um love that he was a father

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loved that he like had his own job like his own business like as a fisher like all of these amazing things and that it

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was incidental and i love that you've brought up to me about the consulting behind the scenes robin um but i think that there was an

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opportunity to probably have like other characters with disability as well because i feel like you know

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that character itself was a five out of five but the representation the film um was a four because i'm like we can't

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just have one anymore like i've had enough like there's not just one disabled person in every single town

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that's not how i believe the world works nice so it's a four out of five for me

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what about you toby toby

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i don't know if i might be like really hard i know i'm like oh

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whatever whatever you got says my guts is 3.5 sorry guys

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uh just because um so like kind of like halfway i think

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like i said i think there's some wiggle room to do better however i did really like it i really

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really enjoyed it honestly i could watch it like 100 times i love the movie um but

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yeah i think 3.5 i love that yeah no

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we need to be harsh we need intersectionality we need all of those things so

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yeah yeah i need to invite them guests that are like harsher than us like sometimes where too yeah i just like see pretty things that i'm like oh i love it

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it's beautiful i love it that's a five out of five for

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uh me it is i think like you know just to sort of finish off like disney have been

33:43

doing disability representation i guess for a while now like when you think about like finding nemo kind of days like

33:50

that's disability representation and it's kind of cool to see like how different it is now verse then like it was so like

33:57

dramatized in finding name i feel um without like naming it as disability it

34:03

was like quite dramatized and then i think you know something more modern like luca it's really cool to see

34:09

although not a main character something that is incidental and not dramatized and not like hi look at this

34:15

like yeah so i think there's some real opportunity for them to keep growing

34:20

going up why do you think that they are sort of delaying the main character to be disabled because i just think

34:28

at this point it's like it's like the whole disney princess thing that's like when are we getting a disabled disney princess right

34:36

yeah yeah i just think no no for sure like i wish i wish that

34:42

they would just bite the bullet go ahead and do it like yeah yeah what are you waiting for i don't

34:48

don't understand and do you know how many kids could benefit from that because

34:54

they probably have friends that are disabled they probably have a mum that's disabled i think that would make

35:00

someone's yeah like seeing that and just like literally could you imagine if i was a kid and i saw that i would cry

35:06

like and i'm gonna cry i was just gonna say like i swear

35:11

disabled barbie must be like the highest selling barbie of all time like every single person that i know i mean this is

35:18

kind of like a whole side thing that's like can sometimes be irritating it's cute but can sometimes be irritating

35:24

when people like send you photos and they're like oh my kid really want a disabled barbie because they know you and they love you and i was like that's

35:30

really cute but i swear like so many at least like 20 people sent me like a photo of

35:37

disabled barbie and was like we bought this and i was like okay that's cool but like

35:43

i swear they must have sold like bajillions of that like so even like when you come from a

35:49

business case i guess that's where i was going without just like rogue thoughts going everywhere the business case of

35:54

actually representing disability as well in disney films i think they'll see like once they actually do it really

36:00

well and have a main character like sales will probably just skyrocket like you said you know like they will biggest

36:07

minority and then all of the people that love and care for that minority like that's a lot of people that's a lot of

36:13

dollars yeah i think exactly recent stats i saw like 18

36:18

of like most first world countries are people with disability and then around 60 of those populations it's

36:25

usually around 18 to like 20 are people disability and then usually around 60 to 70 percent

36:31

have like a direct connection to disability which makes sense like it's like friends family members loved

36:37

ones like yeah colleagues even so yeah i think we make it happen like

36:44

the dollar reviews perspective it's like come on disney hurry up we're waiting

36:51

yeah well

36:58

[Laughter]

37:05

do you guys remember like disney channels yes yeah and they were always like

37:12

and then it was like yes this is the mouse

37:19

yeah yeah all right i think that's enough talk for one episode that was so much

37:26

fun thank you so much for joining us toby and obviously thank you robin for being my wonderful co-host for today

37:32

thank you everyone as well at home who joined along um and listened or watched

37:38

this episode um definitely go give toby a follow on all the social medias and if you wanted

37:44

to work with toby with some consulting work reach out and we want to hear what you thought

37:50

about luca as well and obviously this episode there's some a bit of talking there but that's always fun jump

37:55

on our social media if you literally search reframed podcast you'll find us we're on facebook instagram and twitter

38:02

and we want you to retweet share your story on instagram comment on stuff and let us know what your scores were and

38:08

let us know what you thought of luca as well even like tag disney and some stuff will get their attention hopefully start

38:15

a little bit of a trend uh get some make some noise i guess like get some attention and hopefully we can get this

38:21

message spread far and wide and create some more change um and lastly i just want to say a big

38:26

thank you as well to the community broadcasting foundation for helping us to fund this series very grateful

38:32

because we love jumping on here and having these chats it's lots of fun and other than that we will see you next

38:38

week so thank you again thanks robin thanks toby

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hello [Music]

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[Music]

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thank you to the community broadcasting foundation for funding this podcast