0:00
coming up on reframed along with this
0:03
week's special guest Michelle Roger
0:05
today we'll be discussing the L word gen
0:08
queue
0:09
bloody amazing and our lives aren't like
0:11
what's being depicted on screen but
0:14
they're like the most important parts of
0:16
representation I think you know they do
0:19
these things we have sex and I'm like I
0:22
don't know the last time I saw that
0:24
represented on screen
0:26
[Music]
0:30
hey
0:32
welcome back to reframed the podcast
0:34
that reframes her disability is
0:36
portrayed in film and TV I'm your host
0:39
Jason clymo and today I have the
0:41
wonderful Stephanie Dowell with me as my
0:43
co-host along with this week special
0:45
guest Michelle Roger
0:47
today we'll be discussing the L word gen
0:49
Q
0:50
bloody amazing but before we do let's
0:52
say Hello to Michelle and learn a little
0:54
bit more about them so welcome to the
0:56
podcast Michelle did you just want to
0:58
start off by letting us all know a bit
1:00
about you and what you do
1:02
I'm Michelle
1:04
um I'm a bit
1:06
of an Eclectic person
1:09
artist photographer model
1:13
um I'd do a bit of everything really so
1:16
it's sort of
1:17
a lot of it depends on what my body's
1:20
doing so at times I'm focusing on my
1:23
writing other times I'm focusing more on
1:25
photography doing
1:28
um
1:29
artist Retreats things like that
1:32
um or yeah modeling as well so it's sort
1:34
of I'm a little bit all over the shop
1:35
with what I do
1:37
um and I do a lot of work online
1:40
particularly on Instagram so I've run a
1:42
project now for seven years called up
1:44
and dressed which is basically exploring
1:47
fashion and disability but also just a
1:49
celebration of actually getting
1:50
physically up and dressed when you're
1:52
particularly chronically ill and it's
1:54
quite a challenge to be getting up and
1:56
dressed you know even just to get out of
1:57
bed most days it can be a you know a
1:59
real challenge but to get up and dressed
2:01
and celebrate that as something to do
2:02
and it sort of morphed into a much
2:04
larger project over the years
2:06
and gone from just taking photos in my
2:09
laundry
2:11
um or in my backyard with my chooks too
2:13
on the runway at Melbourne fashion week
2:15
so it's sort of yeah it's so good it's
2:17
been like a wild ride that I never
2:19
expected and here I am at 49 doing all
2:22
sorts of things so
2:24
and talking with my hand I bloody love
2:26
it it's so good though can I quickly ask
2:29
like do you have and I know I shouldn't
2:31
do this as a fellow model I hate it when
2:32
people ask this but surely you've done
2:35
so many amazing things do you have like
2:37
a favorite moment from your modeling
2:39
career so far
2:41
oh it's so tricky question really
2:46
I think
2:47
look to be honest I think last year when
2:50
I did the underground Runway
2:52
it was a favorite moment because it was
2:55
the first time
2:57
I'd been on a major Runway that actually
3:00
felt inclusive and diverse
3:04
authentically so the first time I'd been
3:07
particularly behind the scenes more so
3:09
more so than any visual aspect but
3:12
behind the scenes was a real sense
3:15
that
3:17
it wasn't a tokenistic effort like
3:19
everyone from stylist to makeup artist
3:22
to the crew behind scenes wanted it to
3:26
be authentically diverse I went to
3:29
authentically inclusive
3:31
and just welcoming like really
3:35
I yeah I think
3:37
that was
3:39
it for me
3:41
that was the moment yeah it was just
3:43
because it's so rare I think
3:46
yeah yeah yeah and we need more of that
3:49
and you know hats off to Melbourne
3:51
Fashion Week
3:52
I've done a little bit of stuff with
3:53
them too which is awesome and they are
3:55
amazing and they are doing the work
3:57
behind the scenes so
3:58
um you know all we can hope is that it
4:00
creates more opportunities for models
4:01
more opportunities for disabled
4:03
creatives behind the scenes as well like
4:06
we want disabled like directors
4:09
um you know stylists hair and makeup
4:11
everyone so
4:13
um yeah I love that I think that's so
4:15
true like for me audiences are so smart
4:19
nowadays they really know you can really
4:21
tell when something is that genuine
4:24
authentic representation and you can you
4:26
can see it build from the ground from
4:29
the initial seed along the along the
4:31
entire I guess artistic process
4:34
um or creative process
4:37
um you know it's richer it's Fuller it's
4:39
it just is a deeper representation
4:42
um and I think that's the same when it
4:44
comes to film and television
4:46
um you can really tell when that genuine
4:47
representation is happening behind the
4:49
scenes as well as in front of the camera
4:52
um I guess for you from your perspective
4:55
why is it so important that we see more
4:58
of this out there and audiences are
5:00
exposed to more authentic and genuine
5:03
representation of disability
5:04
particularly on screen I think it's both
5:06
for disabled people themselves and for
5:09
the general Community as well because I
5:11
think
5:12
I know myself I became really unwell in
5:16
my early 30s I'm 49 now so it's been
5:19
nearly two decades up in crook
5:21
there was such Limited
5:24
anything that wasn't pity depressing
5:28
horrible you know every movie that came
5:30
out you know where you killed yourself
5:32
rather than
5:34
continued Life as a disabled person like
5:36
that was essentially it and then you got
5:38
an Oscar for it and whatever
5:40
there was you know no no hope for the
5:45
future no sense of possibilities or
5:47
anything like that so
5:49
but so much of our culture the way we
5:52
think about the world around us the way
5:54
we think about the people that are in it
5:55
is framed by what we see on TV what we
5:59
see in our movies what we see in our
6:01
advertising all of it and we see it over
6:03
and over again and as disabled people we
6:06
internalize that as much as The Wider
6:08
Community does And if every
6:09
representation we get is just these
6:12
pity horrible narratives about our
6:16
existence or or the inspirational book
6:19
that we get as well wait
6:21
it doesn't give us
6:24
any sense of I know hope or possibility
6:27
for the future or how our lives can be
6:30
and I think that's particularly
6:32
important for young kids to be able to
6:33
see you know what's their future going
6:36
to hold and their value and their place
6:38
and
6:39
in society what they can achieve as
6:42
someone newly disabled
6:44
you know I used to work in neurological
6:47
rehab before I became unwell so I used
6:51
to see a lot of people who'd had new new
6:53
Strokes or brain injury things like that
6:57
and the change in life and what the
7:00
future held for that again what we see
7:02
what we're seeing in our movies and TV
7:05
was so incredibly negative
7:07
that's what people think the only future
7:09
can possibly be and then the people
7:11
around us internalize that as well and
7:14
they their role around us is depicted by
7:18
Hollywood as these savior roles or where
7:21
the burden they have to care for or
7:25
and that's not what reality is and what
7:27
our lives are and I look around at all
7:29
the people that I've been lucky enough
7:31
to meet and get to know the disability
7:32
community
7:34
and our lives aren't like what's being
7:36
depicted on screen you know they're
7:39
incredibly diversed and nuanced and
7:42
wonderful and it's not that things
7:44
aren't hard at times or
7:46
depressing or things like that but
7:48
there's this whole other world of joy
7:50
and
7:51
I know life like we have lives we don't
7:55
just it's at all sad bubble in the
7:57
corner you know yeah and I think as well
8:00
like you know
8:02
I think a lot of the time when there is
8:04
representation of marginalized
8:06
communities it's like the most palatable
8:09
version of that marginalized community
8:11
so it's like a white person that is
8:15
heterosexual
8:18
um and cisgender
8:20
but then they're disabled and then
8:22
there's still like a bunch of like
8:23
crappy tropes that are probably like
8:25
thrown upon them too most of the time
8:27
but I think it's really interesting to
8:29
unpack the fact that it's like
8:30
intersectionality is still something
8:32
that's not done very well at all
8:35
um we'll talk about this later because
8:38
you know probably the L word is an
8:41
exception to the rule there but
8:43
in general you know there's
8:46
nowhere near enough representation when
8:48
there is representation it's usually
8:50
played by non-disabled people as well
8:52
and then when there is representation
8:54
it's usually like I've said you know the
8:57
most stereotypically palatable
9:00
um you know not intersectional not like
9:02
multi-complex version of you know a
9:06
disabled person being shown
9:08
um and that's a huge pity because it's
9:11
like you know that's just not even a
9:13
real person most of the time like like
9:15
you've said Michelle it's like
9:17
we live you know interesting complicated
9:21
complex lives and we're not just
9:24
disabled we have a lot of other things
9:27
going on in our lives like you know a
9:29
lot of us work a lot of us are you know
9:31
pursuing our own kind of careers or
9:33
Hobbies or whatever it is and
9:36
you know to just kind of show a group of
9:39
people in this completely
9:40
two-dimensional way
9:42
is
9:44
I think you know we spoke about it in
9:45
another episode but it's just inaccurate
9:47
which is wrong like we should actually
9:49
be striving for better accuracy in the
9:53
way that we actually represent people
9:54
anyway
9:56
um but two it's super harmful as you've
9:58
you know really said really really well
10:01
earlier like the way that it people are
10:03
represented is the way that we think
10:05
about ourselves and the way that I think
10:07
others think about us so
10:12
let's get on to analyzing The L Word gen
10:15
queue so to kick us off Steph did you
10:18
just want to give us a bit of a synopsis
10:21
with this show we're returning to the L
10:24
word which was a groundbreaking series
10:26
for its portrayal of the lgbtqi
10:30
um plus Community back in the early
10:32
2000s so the L word generation Q which
10:35
is the new show the new revamp show uh
10:38
reacquaintance us with original
10:40
characters bet chain and else as they
10:43
continue navigating the trials and
10:45
tribulations of life and love with a
10:49
whole new generation of diverse queer
10:51
characters
10:52
um particularly
10:54
um making special mention of the
10:56
character of Maribel
10:57
um who is played by actress Jillian
10:59
Mercado and Jillian like her character
11:02
Maribel is actually a power chair user
11:05
that lives with muscular dystrophy so
11:09
from me and my perspective as a female
11:14
power chair user I am super super
11:18
excited by Jillian's portrayal of
11:20
Maribel um but let's go to Michelle
11:23
first
11:25
um Michelle what are your thoughts on on
11:27
how generation Q has handled disability
11:31
uh I'm another power chair user and I'm
11:34
equally excited because it's just so
11:37
rare to see a power chair user
11:40
in these contexts like it's just you
11:43
know it's I realized by the end of
11:46
watching it how much
11:49
I've needed to see a character
11:52
like that
11:55
and I
11:56
and I almost don't care if it's got
11:58
faults because I'm so starved for that
12:01
kind of representation
12:03
that it's just I could feel myself like
12:07
at the start I was a bit like not quite
12:09
sure
12:10
like
12:11
I hope it gets you know more lines more
12:14
lines please more character development
12:16
and then because I was watching it so
12:18
quickly and it was happening so quickly
12:20
it was I could feel myself getting
12:23
excited by seeing this character
12:26
just little Snippets of life
12:29
where it's obvious that Jillian's had a
12:32
say
12:34
in the character and just things there's
12:38
a little scene
12:39
it's early on
12:41
um she's sitting at the table after the
12:43
oh can we do spoilers yeah God yeah yeah
12:46
yeah
12:48
after the wedding's blowing up and Finn
12:51
came in and yeah
12:53
sitting at the table and all the
12:55
presents are there
12:56
and she goes to get a whisk just a whisk
12:59
off the table it's like a nothing sort
13:01
of moment
13:03
and
13:05
now I'm gonna lose his name
13:07
the boyfriend Monica Micah goes to reach
13:11
for it and she's like no I will tell you
13:14
if I need you to do that and it's just
13:16
like yes get it yeah
13:20
it is such a nothing small moment
13:24
but so much of life I go and I
13:28
particularly notice when I'm out not so
13:30
much at home with people who know me but
13:33
you go to get something and someone is
13:35
instantly going to help you to do it
13:37
without asking and it's just a tiny
13:40
moment of
13:42
reality and I was just like
13:45
they're like the most important parts of
13:48
representation I think and like like
13:51
you've said most likely that was because
13:53
they had genuine casting I'm gonna throw
13:56
this stuff in a minute because Steph's
13:57
like our resident nerd who does all the
13:59
research to see like what what other
14:01
kind of cast and crew were involved that
14:03
were also disabled and I love it
14:06
um but you know there may have been like
14:09
a writer with disability as well but if
14:12
not that was purely due to the fact that
14:14
they cast Jillian in that role and
14:16
Jillian had that knowledge because she
14:19
has the lived experience so she could
14:20
bring that to the show and that creates
14:24
moments like like you had whilst
14:26
watching it that creates moments like
14:29
that for the audience and that is what
14:31
makes shows work when they actually have
14:33
genuine casting and it's not some person
14:36
who's like gone to a rehab center and
14:38
done this really superficial
14:40
like research where like
14:43
literally you can tell that they just
14:45
probably did a lap and spoke to a few
14:47
people who probably Starstruck because
14:48
it was like Eddie Redmayne or someone
14:50
like that came through and they didn't
14:52
actually get real you know in-depth
14:55
amazing information I mean I'm
14:56
speculating here but the way that those
14:58
kind of portrayals generally work out I
15:01
think we can deduce that like genuine
15:04
representation and genuine casting
15:06
almost always like trumps that so
15:09
Steph do you know if there was any other
15:12
tidbits exciting things of behind the
15:15
scenes
15:17
um I'm not I'm not aware of any any
15:20
other people with disability behind the
15:23
scenes necessarily I did read some
15:25
interviews with Jillian and
15:28
um she spoke about how she was uh you
15:31
know the writers and that would reach
15:32
out to her and discuss with her
15:35
um which is obviously great because she
15:36
could bring that lived experience to the
15:39
role and I'm she wouldn't have it any
15:41
other way
15:42
um again it would be I know we spoke
15:45
about this on another episode you know
15:46
it would be nice if as an actress she
15:49
didn't have to also necessarily you know
15:53
consult or provide that perspective but
15:56
the thing is
15:57
you know when you are building a
15:59
character when an actress or an actor is
16:02
building a character they do bring their
16:05
own experience to the table and they do
16:07
consult so I guess you know that that is
16:10
there as well you know it's not an
16:12
unusual
16:13
um or ex you know um exclusive
16:17
um thing for an actress to do but
16:20
um what I you know what I loved most
16:24
about the character and this is what
16:27
we've sort of already touched on was
16:29
she had agency she was her own person
16:31
she had a job she was in a relationship
16:34
I get like I don't know if we're going
16:37
straight I'm going straight to the sex
16:38
scene because that
16:41
that was
16:42
like I almost wanted to cry and this is
16:45
really it's really sad that that you
16:48
know small moment you know it was just
16:51
like a short scene that had such an
16:54
impact I can imagine if I had seen
16:56
something like that when I was a
16:58
teenager growing up or in my more
17:01
formative years like it would have had
17:04
such an impact on how I saw myself and
17:07
what you know how I thought other people
17:10
should see me as well
17:12
um so that that was really I've never
17:15
seen anything really like that done in a
17:19
positive way as well I know there has
17:21
been a
17:23
other portrayals out there but it's
17:26
sometimes done in like a weird not
17:29
necessarily in a loving relationship
17:32
kind of way
17:34
um you know that again like the
17:35
character has agency and choice and she
17:38
she knows what she wants and I think
17:42
even there was one small little moment
17:44
where she like moves his hand like when
17:47
they're in bed together like to wear and
17:49
it's just yeah it was just so so well
17:52
done
17:53
um again this is the kind of stuff that
17:55
I want to see so much more of because
17:57
again it shows not just people with
18:00
disabilities themselves but the like
18:02
wider society that this is what happens
18:05
this is exactly what this is how people
18:08
with disability live you know they do
18:11
these things we have sex it's not yeah
18:14
and like we have sex and most of us know
18:17
what we want when we're having sex and
18:19
that's something that needs to be
18:21
portrayed a lot more
18:23
so yeah I love that and she was so clear
18:26
from the outset like she's as he's
18:28
carrying her up the stairs she's like
18:30
you can't break me like you know just
18:33
and it's just that it was also as you
18:36
say it was she had agency she knew what
18:38
she wanted
18:39
there was it was a built up relationship
18:43
that had come to the point it was like
18:45
the other characters on the show it
18:47
wasn't
18:48
tokenistic it wasn't a
18:50
fetishized but I can't say the word
18:55
yeah
18:57
and reading interviews between both of
19:00
them they were so conscious of that as
19:03
well like the sitting down and the
19:06
Angles and what was going to be showing
19:07
and making sure that for both parties
19:11
the scene felt authentic and
19:15
was comfortable and was something that I
19:17
could be proud of as well and I think it
19:20
really just comes across
19:22
so strongly
19:25
I think quickly as well like one of the
19:27
as I touched on earlier really important
19:29
parts of this character is that they are
19:32
intersectional
19:34
um it's not this 2D ridiculous character
19:38
that doesn't actually exist in the real
19:40
world it's also somebody with you know
19:42
that's multiply marginalized you know
19:44
with real life experiences
19:47
um you know they're not just this I
19:50
guess
19:51
realistically like I said like that you
19:53
know Ultra palatable version of a
19:56
disabled person so you know it's a woman
19:58
of color who's also queer and they're
20:01
disabled and I'm like I don't know the
20:04
last time I saw that represented on
20:05
screen which is one something to be
20:09
celebrated it's amazing that they've
20:11
done this
20:12
to something to just be like distressed
20:16
and disappointed about that it is not
20:18
happening elsewhere like what you said
20:21
earlier Michelle we talk about this so
20:23
much where it's like even when there's
20:25
like faults with a disabled character
20:27
we're still so excited to see them and
20:30
when we like started scoring I feel like
20:32
in our first few episodes when we
20:34
started scoring on our inclusive
20:36
disability representation scale which
20:37
we'll get to soon when we first started
20:39
scoring we were scoring like so high for
20:41
stuff that I look back on and I'm like
20:43
that wasn't that good but it was just
20:45
because the bar was set so low
20:48
um and I think the bar is still set so
20:50
low because we still don't get that much
20:52
representation even with the show like
20:55
I'll play devil's advocate here
20:58
um but you know like there is only one
21:00
from what we're made aware of there is
21:03
only one disabled character
21:05
um in the in a diverse mix of characters
21:09
um and you know so we are sort of
21:11
placing all the representation onto this
21:13
one character
21:14
um the intersectionality is great I love
21:16
that I think that's great
21:18
um but yeah one character and I think
21:20
something else I would like to see a
21:23
little bit more of
21:25
um is her interacting with the rest of
21:28
the cost a bit more
21:29
um a lot of her scenes are just with
21:33
Micah the the boyfriend now
21:36
um or with the sister
21:38
um or her mother like in the family
21:40
setting I would love to see her interact
21:42
have more of like a friendship with like
21:44
the other
21:46
um women and um people in the mix
21:49
um and I think lastly what I would like
21:52
to see a bit more of and this is just
21:54
possibly for selfish reasons I'd like to
21:57
see her like how she accesses some
22:00
things like she magically like gets
22:02
inside these places I'm like is that
22:04
accessible is there a Rand post to get
22:07
in this place I don't know about that uh
22:09
just like and it doesn't have to be much
22:11
just like a little thing here and there
22:13
like just you know let's see how
22:16
actually no I will say we did see her
22:18
come through I think it was Micah's
22:20
front door
22:21
um said that was something but again
22:23
like was that like yeah just more of
22:26
that kind of little thing to be like
22:28
okay that's how she gets inside places
22:31
or that's how like she catches bosses or
22:35
she drives or she anything like that
22:37
just again I think this is the sad part
22:40
is that we're just clamoring on to like
22:43
whatever representation we can and be
22:46
like can you do it all can we and she's
22:48
a supporting character like I guess
22:50
where we're probably going is that like
22:52
and Julian Mercado probably would not
22:54
you know be angry about this but we want
22:58
her to be a main character like she is
23:00
an amazing character we're so ready for
23:03
more main characters that are people
23:05
with disability like it needs to happen
23:11
okay I think it's time to give our
23:14
scores on the inclusive disability
23:16
representation scale so for those who
23:19
are just joining us on this episode go
23:21
back and watch the rest but if you are
23:23
just joining us on this one inclusive
23:25
disability represent representation
23:26
scale if I can get the words out is a
23:30
made-up scale doesn't actually mean
23:31
anything in the grand scheme of the
23:33
world but five out of five is the best
23:35
ever zero or you know negative numbers
23:37
are tremendously bad disability
23:40
representation and we will start off
23:42
with Michelle so out of five what did
23:45
you give the L word gen queue
23:48
I'm going to be generous and I'm going
23:50
to give it a four love it
23:52
I just because it yeah as I said it was
23:55
just that moment of so many things that
23:58
have been missing in my life that just
24:01
sort of came together but I can still
24:04
see aspects that I want more of I want
24:07
as you're saying before I want more
24:10
dialogue I want more interaction with
24:12
other characters
24:14
and I think Jillian as an actress and
24:17
her character can definitely carry that
24:20
more staff
24:23
I mean
24:25
if you thought you were being generous
24:27
I'm gonna be extra generous I'm gonna
24:28
give it a four and a half oh my God out
24:30
of five
24:33
and like I just love her character
24:36
person with disabilities being shown in
24:39
a positive light in a romantic
24:42
relationship that's something that
24:45
um in an interview that Julian did
24:47
um you know she she did say she needs
24:50
she wants to see more
24:53
um disabled people being represented in
24:56
or shown in a positive light we want to
24:59
celebrate the joys of our lives and
25:01
because we we're well acquainted with
25:03
the negative narratives that we've all
25:06
been exposed to
25:07
um let's see the joy let's see the
25:08
positive let's see
25:10
um let's bring more of that to maybe
25:12
balance the scales a little bit more so
25:14
I gave it a four out of five so pretty
25:17
damn good score across the board I would
25:19
say for the web gen queue and for me
25:22
like pretty much agree with everything
25:24
the two of you said
25:26
um and for me it's just I am sick of
25:29
just one character like I think we can
25:30
have more than one disabled character on
25:32
a show
25:34
um I want to see the same character as
25:36
one of the main characters like we we
25:38
need that now we deserve that now like I
25:41
think shows can see that it's working as
25:44
well like when they do it right it works
25:46
and people respond to it really well I
25:49
would hope that they see you know the
25:50
more that Julian and Maribel are in in
25:53
the show the you know the ratings
25:55
improve and all that kind of stuff as
25:57
well but even because the whole business
25:59
case is very important as we talk about
26:01
but for me we just need more
26:04
um and and we can do more than just one
26:06
character so it'll be really interesting
26:07
to see if that happens in in season
26:10
three or Beyond so
26:13
well that is it for this week's episode
26:16
I want to thank you both for joining me
26:19
so so much and thank you everyone at
26:21
home who has listened and watched along
26:24
um we've loved having you we really want
26:26
to hear what you think about the L word
26:28
gen queue do you agree were we too
26:30
generous
26:32
um you know did you pick up on things
26:33
that we missed throughout the seasons um
26:37
and you know what are you excited I
26:38
guess about like us are you excited
26:40
about more representation in season
26:42
three and Beyond like are there little
26:44
tidbits that you want to see
26:47
um in maribel's I guess life as well
26:49
like I really want to see her at work
26:50
being a boss
26:52
um let us know so you can find us on
26:55
social media
26:56
um you can find us on Twitter Facebook
26:57
and Instagram if you just look up
26:59
Podcast reframed or reframed podcasts
27:02
um you'll find us and you can also send
27:04
us an email if that's better for you
27:06
we're hello at reframepodcast.com and
27:09
lastly I just want to say a huge thank
27:11
you to the community broadcast
27:13
foundation for helping to fund this
27:15
series
27:31
foreign
27:35
this has been a production of attitude
27:37
Foundation
27:43
[Applause]
27:43
[Music]
