Tracey Vieira: 'Hawkeye'

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coming up on reframed along with us today is our special guest tracy vieira and today we'll be

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discussing the tv show called hawkeye i don't know that there's many people doing representation

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really well you know that's the kind of representation that i think i really enjoy i think again you've got a

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fabulous answer and so much about knowing what you can be is being able to

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see it

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welcome back to reframed the podcast that reframes how disability is portrayed in film and tv

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i'm jason kleimer and i'm your host for today and my co-host today is the lovely stephanie dower

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along with us today is our special guest tracy vieira and today we'll be discussing the tv show called hawkeye

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which is a disney plus series but before i get too stuck into that one let's just say hello to tracy and get

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stuck into learning a bit more about her so thank you so much for joining us we're very excited to have you yo uh i

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feel like maybe perhaps we could say you're a bit like an industry insider for us um a lot of

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the time we have people disability join us i understand you're a non-disabled person who works in the industry so we're very excited to hear

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your perspectives um especially in hawkeye but just on the industry as a whole so thank you

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enough from me i guess did you want to i guess set the scene for everybody at home um and let them know about yourself

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sure so hi everybody at home and um hi you guys so tracy vieira

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i am the chief content officer at a company called hoodlum we make film and television shows so the um

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last year i can't believe i'm saying last year last year i did two feature films so one for

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netflix and one for stan one was a christmas movie for stan and my netflix film will come out later this year we're

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in the last week of post-production uh we also make a show called five bedrooms which is on paramount plus uh we did a

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show called harrow for three seasons on the abc here and it was um international on hulu

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and i don't know we do it we do a lot we also did a show called all my friends are racists for abc this year uh it's a

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fantastic very raw uh queer indigenous

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series and very proud to have been part of that and then um just as background before that i was

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with screen queensland for five and a half years as the ceo which is a state-based funding agency uh

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and prior to that i spent 10 years in los angeles working for a company called oz film and essentially my job

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was to help facilitate international production into australia so i did all the big deals on

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things like thor ragnarok and aquaman

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lots and lots of things about two billion dollars worth of production so i've been in the industry for over 20 years

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and then when i'm not doing my hoodlum job i'm also the chair of the president i love that title

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of the screen producers australia which is the organization that

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represents producers in australia and i'm the chair of griffith film school it's advisory board and the chair of the

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asia pacific screen um awards so i like i like to be busy

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yeah apparently that's amazing i think the end i think that you just the industry in brisbane

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knows how busy tracy is she is very impressive um

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i know you and i met when you were in your role as ceo at spring queensland um

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which you were very missed there i miss going into the office and not seeing you there but um you know you were in that role

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for five five and a half years you know we've talked on this podcast about the the push and the progression

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we've made around diversity and that kind of thing from your perspective what kind of

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progress has been made in the last you know five even 10 years

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yeah it's really interesting to me i feel like there has definitely been an acceleration and i wouldn't say it's

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been 10 years i would say it's been five years which started really in this country

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around gender representation on screen and

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like the rest of the world that sort of came off the back of the sony hack and the

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metoo movement out of the us and caused other places like australia to have to have a hard look at itself

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um that in terms of gender diversity um or i

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should say even before that it was really about female representation um in the industry

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and so that's really only been about five years and that quickly changed to

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be more inclusive around uh indigenous representation and i think

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it's really only the last two years that i'm starting to see that expand into other areas and

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but what i what i will say is that it is evolving and i think for a lot of the industry

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there's a lot of learning to continue to do i don't know that there's many people

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doing representation really well but i certainly think that

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you know there's a lot more commitment to doing better

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yeah absolutely definitely we have definitely got a long way to go but it's very interesting to hear i guess that we

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yeah a little bit like a snapshot of i guess a very rough snapshot of like a history where we've come from and where

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we're going now is yeah and there's so much work to be done and also like you know touching on the

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fact that it doesn't just happen overnight like you can't just be inclusive straight away there's a lot of work that obviously goes into it so

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um i think it is really important to talk about that as well yeah and i think also it's really easy to oh sorry it's

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just gonna say it's really easy to think that you've done it when you see people on screen and i think that that just

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doesn't go far enough either and i and for me in terms of the organizations i'm

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involved in and what we're doing it's really about changing it from leadership

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down um because i really think that you know it's fine to now have better representation on some of our shows you

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know and on screen but we're still not doing it very well behind um camera we're not doing it really well

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in terms of who are working in the agencies we're not doing it really well in terms of who's on board we're not

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doing it well at all in terms of who's commissioning content so i think that you know

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when i say you know we've come a long way in five years i still think we're at the bottom

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of the mountain yeah yeah definitely this is a you know it's no one has a

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an easy way of responding to this but what what are some things that do need to change like where does that change

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need to come from is it from the people seeking to enter the industry or is it from the inside out like where

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is that change or where should that change be coming from in your opinion yeah i

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actually probably really have a good answer on this and and that it has to start at the top i really do feel

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from a leadership perspective uh that and probably the best way to to answer

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this is actually to talk about um in elections where once upon a time we

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only had white men who were able to vote and we needed those white men

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to vote to allow women to be able to vote and originally that was just white women

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who then got the vote we then needed white women and white men to

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um enable and make that change for indigenous australians australians to be

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able to vote so like those things sometimes happen very far apart so it's the gatekeepers it's the people at the

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top who actually have to make the shift and you know i think about um i've only recently become the president of um

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screen producers australia and one of the things for me in terms of um going

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on to that board was looking at representation on that board and and really saying look we don't have enough

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diversity here and what can we do about it and the way that we were able to well we're starting to address that is um we

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announced an initiative that the board would mentor people in terms of from diverse and

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diverse backgrounds who are producers so that we can actually open the doors show

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them how the board works give them access into the meetings um i think demystify the process of what the board

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does so that people actually feel unable to stick their hand up for those roles and actually

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you know hold their hand into that leadership so that next time there's an election we have started to make that

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change and yeah and you have to do that from the top so i think that that's absolutely

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critical um and i want to see that in agencies like we still don't have anybody running a screen agency in this

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country um from any kind of diverse background or

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who you know has um physical um

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a physical disability like we just don't have that so that has to happen because people at the top open those doors

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yeah okay you proved me wrong there is a good answer to that literally

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and also i'm just like loving you and so glad that we have you on so thank you

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i think probably the fun thank you for inviting me you're so welcome um the final question before we jump over to talking about

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hawkeye is probably again like i think you'll have an amazing answer for and we sort of

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discussed it a little bit prior to recording is why you think representative

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representation is so important i guess you know with your specific lens as well talking about why it's so important

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for people with disability or people from diverse backgrounds so i guess be at the writing table and control their

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own narrative as well yeah 100 so i think you know again this it started for me personally

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um as a fee and i can go right back to early in my high school years where i wanted

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to be in film and television i didn't know a single person in film and television i didn't know a way into the

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industry i didn't know you know where you started i didn't know

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what anything about it what you did and so much about

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knowing what you can be is being able to see it and so it's much easier to know how to get into an industry if you've

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got other people around you who are in that industry who can talk about access can give you a hand up whatever those

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things are and i think it's so important you know when i had my son who's now 10 years old

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um and i would sit down with him and i'd watch shows and it just it really become very present for me in

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watching children's television um that even with animated characters that don't have

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genders that they were all male voiced and you know shows like paw patrol i

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love dogs but all the dogs for a long time were male dogs or the minions there

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was there were a little male minions or madagascar in terms of the voices of the animals and i started to really

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become have this awareness um and so for me that's where it started

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that's where i got really interested and then for me personally in my life um

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you're right i don't have a physical disability um i'm a straight white privileged female

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but i do have family and i do have friends that have not seen themselves on screen

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that aren't represented in stories and who don't have you know as i said i

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didn't know my way into the industry but they really have a lot they're starting much further back in trying to

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get where they want to be and so i realized that first of all

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we have to be able to see it to know that we can do those things um and then it's one thing again on the

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screen but then it's who has the right to tell those stories um and i think that you know it's it's

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so critical to getting those things right because it's really easy to um think that you're doing the right

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thing and put a character on and it may be for example a trans character um

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but if you're a white straight man writing that character you don't understand all the dimensions and

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all of the things about that person actually be able to bring them to the screen to be more than someone who is trans

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um in terms of having you know a complete

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they're more than that um and that authenticity and and how that's brought to screen um is so

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important to have inclusion and that's not through consultation it's actually through actually having people

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um who actually have that lived experience being able to

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bring voices to those stories and tell those stories and work behind the scenes on those stories and be in the stories

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have control and power i guess over the whole process and the story is the main thing like absolutely

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i think again you've got a fabulous answer well i think it's just you know i have

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been in the industry of really um i've been in a long time and

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i think for me i've always come at it from the perspective that [Music]

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i've got a lot to learn and i'm always very keen to learn more and

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to listen and and understand where we do things wrong and i think through doing that and seeing

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where things have gone wrong and seeing the damage that that can do um to a community or you know to the kid

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at home watching a character and we're gonna talk about um hawkeye you know if you're a

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deaf child at home and the representation on screen is so wrong that it's not their lived experience of

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course they're gonna know that um and then you do more damage than you do good so we've got to get it right

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and on that let's uh head over and start discussing hawkeye steph can you just

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give us a bit of a synopsis so hawkeye is a disney plus series based

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on the character of hawkeye who we're all familiar with from the avengers films but in this adventure hawkeye

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whose name is actually clint barton has a seemingly simple mission to get back to his family for christmas

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but when a presence or two from his past threatens to derail far more than his festive spirit clint must team up and

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accept the help from kate bishop a 22 year old archer who was growing up idolizing hawkeye but the real reason

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that we're talking about hawkeye on reframe today is the character of maya

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lopez who's actually the antagonist of the film or one of the antagonists she's

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also known as ekko who i believe we're going to be seeing more of in future series so ekko is actually a character

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who is deaf and has a prosthetic leg as does the actor portraying her a la

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claire cox i hope i'm saying her name right tracy what what were your initial thoughts of hawkeye

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well this is so funny so when uh i was thinking about what show to do and

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you know jason very kindly sent me a list of shows and hawkeye was on there and it was the only one i'd watched and

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i know and then i'd seen and so i went home and i was saying to my son oh you know i'm going to do this podcast it's

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on hawkeye and i said but you know it's about um representation of people with disability and

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i don't remember anyone with a disability in it and he was like oh mom and i was like i have to watch it

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again and so it was so interesting to me that it just hadn't registered i just really enjoyed

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it as a series um and then coming back to it and looking at it

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through the lens you know beyond story i actually thought um

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it was interesting because it's not just maya the character either who um is deaf but the character hawkeye in

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this he is not deaf but he has um uh loss of hearing and so he's wearing

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the hearing aid so there is that as well which i thought was really interesting because and i know that if

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you're a huge comic book fan or a marvel fan that there's history to that story and

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how that all happens um and there's references to that in in other

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parts of the the marvel storytelling but i thought it was it was interesting but because you've got these

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two characters coming together and they both have interactions that relate to that but

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more important to me um that's not all their story is and i

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thought in in terms of having characters that are really well-rounded um i love the fact that maya particularly the most

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interesting thing about her isn't that she's deaf and that's why i didn't remember yeah i think that's

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you know that's the kind of representation that i think i really enjoy is when you have to really think

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about it you're not thinking about it oh yeah that's a disabled character you're just like that's a cool character

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it's part of the story you know it's she's not serving a disability purpose which is you know exactly what we're

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we're on about on on reframed um i again also love that

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you know as you mentioned clint hawkeye himself is hard of hearing or has

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hearing loss and so not only do you get that deaf and that hard of hearing

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representation you get a scope of it you get a spectrum of it it's not just one

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person's experience you get um a much more accurate you know portrayal of

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different experiences of it so i think that was really um really smart and really well done

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yeah i agree and that was probably one of my favorite scenes where they were in it together um very early on and

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uh and she's she sort of is trying to communicate with him and he doesn't read sign

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language because he um never learned sign language he's hearing losses much later in life and so

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how that plays out and her frustration with him um around needing to lean on this sort of new technology i i thought

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that that was such a great interaction um in terms of actually going not everybody who has

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um a hearing disability is the same and they come they have different issues with it and i just i really enjoyed that

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scene in terms of how that played out um and and yeah i just i thought that was a

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really great moment i loved and i agree yeah no i fully

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agree with everything that you're both saying i loved it it is definitely for me

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um mostly it was incidental representation and i love that and hawkeye is like very well loved in uh

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the marvel universe um and i think the way in which they have actually tackled

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disability provided those you know different experiences as well um they've got sensory disability in

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there they've got physical disability in there um we have an antagonist kind of like anti-hero

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character because i mean we all loved echo didn't we like just what a badass

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um and we have both hero and anti-hero as a person with disability in the one series

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and i just went this is the future of tv like this is what i want to see more of and it just bloody excites me

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than when you like you know we've already talked about eternals as well the um is it the most recent no i think

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spiderman's the most recent possibly but one of the most recent marvel films to come out

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and there's also disability representation in that and so it very much excites me that this is the kind of

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path that they're taking and i really want to encourage them to continue taking that path um and also taking a

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note out of eternals and hawkeyes or hawkeye's book i guess um

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in that they have tackled it in this really great incidental way and whether they've had someone behind

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the scenes which i don't know i'm looking at you steph you're usually the one that looks behind the scenes to see if there's someone with disability

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involved i actually did do a little bit of background research and a really interesting thing was they

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um marvel hired deaf consultants and interpreters who actually

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made up new language in asl to cover terms and references from the

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mcu that otherwise didn't have sign language already developed for it so i

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thought that was you know they're making up their own language now yeah that is cool that's very james

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cameron who made up the whole language and avatar as well as no like yeah actually wow that that's

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incredible yeah literally you know the other thing that i saw i saw an interview um and

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where um the woman who plays and i don't want to get her name wrong either

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um who plays maya both jeremy renner and hayley um

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steinfeld actually made an effort to learn some american sign language so that they could communicate

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and at least be able to say their names when they met to try and make her feel comfortable as a new actor coming in and

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i have to one of the things i do want to do is give a shout out to marvel because um she is a i believe a first-time actor

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and is also native american which is the same as the representation um in the comic books and i can't

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imagine that when they started that you know whether they even thought they could find this

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an authentic actor to do this on screen and not only have they done it um

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she's absolutely stellar and i think is so believable as the character um

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in every way and you know does deserve to have it her own show so it was also interesting um

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to because at the beginning of the uh the series you see a young maya um whose

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um sign language um speaking sign language with her father and the young girl who plays young maya

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is actually the actor's cousin in real life so there is a family not only are we

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getting more authentic representation for native americans but um the young

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woman you know is has that experience with asl she i don't think she spoke it

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fluently before the series but she made an effort obviously to learn it for for the series and and got to play

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her cousin's younger self which is another little weird and exciting behind the scenes

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tidbit yeah that's awesome i love that but i also think it just goes to show that um

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the effort that can be made in terms of um and when i think about inclusivity it

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is about making people um actually feel that that they should beat it

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because they should be there and when everybody else actually steps up

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and you know doesn't expect everybody to be speaking the same language have the same abilities as they do and and you

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actually reach out and actually make yourself a community it's it's such a um

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i think amazing experience and transformative and that i think comes through in terms of story on screen so

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you know understanding that that was something that happened behind the scenes actually makes me enjoy it even

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more when i go back and watch it that's it we can we can look beyond the usual avenues of casting and things like

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that and when we do open ourselves up i mean i've said it before we work in the creative industries you know when we get

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creative with our processes like that look what happens something amazing so

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yeah definitely and it translates and it works like yeah absolutely i was going

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to say if you if you had written down the list of everything you needed for that character i can imagine a lot of casting directors would have said we'll

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never find this but the truth is that absolutely pretty much anything you

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wanted to want to cast in terms of character probably is out there um

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and it it just takes a bit more work to figure it out and the the to get this right is so

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important that it's worth doing that piece of work and i think going back to sorry stephanie what you were saying too

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about having consultants um in terms of that work i think the interesting thing for me around that is does that mean

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that um we need to do more work in terms of deaf writers as well

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and being able to give access and making sure that you know they're supported to get to that level where they should be

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writing their stories and be you know where it comes to those characters

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absolutely should be providing that voice as well i think marvel have obviously done a great job in terms of how that representation is on screen

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um but wouldn't it have been great to say it was also a deaf writer that's the thing and like i think

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there's this expectation as well like we have touched on it before that often like the actor or actress will

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become like a consultant as well and it's happened with me like in work that i've done before where i've been talent

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and you're also talent and also kind of i guess not co-directing to that degree but kind

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of providing you know further information rather than just being able to go in and do your job

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as talent you're sort of also required to do some behind-the-scenes work whereas i guess what you're saying is

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why is it so difficult for you you know casting to have i guess inclusive casting as

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well as inclusion behind the scenes like do both and it will be even better to both and um

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i think that's exactly it and i do think that it's so important because you

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know it shouldn't be it shouldn't be the talent's job actually to have to consult for themselves because that puts people

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in a really difficult position and it also you know

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puts them in a position where they're having to think about access um you know depending on

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what the physical um disability is you know toilets rams

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for someone who has no sight like being able to read a script is you know

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there's so many different things that need to be thought through and then you have if you have people um in the room

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from early on who actually can contribute and provide those answers then you get those things right from the start and if

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no no actor should have to be advocating and saying this is wrong when they're

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actually there to do a job which is to be that character on screen did we think there was anything that was

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like possibly negative about the representation i can't really think of anything from the top of my head steph

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you're usually the more critical mind of the two of us

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you know the one thing um it was interesting because my my dad has a hearing aid and so we were talking about

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hearing aids and he did say to me because he yells about it all the time he often doesn't wear it because he has problems or whatever and um i will say

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the hearing aids seem to work really well compared to other people i know so

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yeah i know it squeaked a bit when he put it in initially but um my experience is especially when he's dealing with all

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those explosions and um fights and yeah like

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he whatever brand he's using i think we need to get on to that because

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i actually i honestly i can't really think of any criticisms i actually have another

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example of something i actually really loved and there was a small moment in i think episode four

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where clint is watching um haley steinfeld's character who is

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what's her name kate uh watching her through a window keeping an eye out for

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maya to arrive keeping us safe and he's like wait kate you gotta get out of

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there now she's like why he's like that light that's flashing is a silent alarm for people who can't hear alarms you

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have to get out now i was like even that for me i was like that's great because some people don't think about that like

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if you can't hear an alarm then you know how does that work so again just sort of sort of throwing that bit of that extra

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information in there to give a given more of a hint as to a different experience to that of what we typically

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are aware of definitely it was like a little educational piece while being super entertaining

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yeah but how much does that add to the story and that wouldn't that could only come from having people in the room in

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terms of that creation who actually know that and i think it does it adds so much value to the story when you actually

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have people who can contribute those bits that people who aren't deaf wouldn't know like i would

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never know that so yes we get an education but you only get that because you've got the right people in the room to start with to help

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that's it exactly making it you know making it much more believable and if someone

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you know if that is their personal experience that we all know that's such an amazing feeling when we see our own experience

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on screen like it just it's yeah it's hard to explain that

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feeling but yeah and sometimes it's the really small things like that like we've spoken about i think in like our sixth

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episode of something about sex education when he gets to the stairs and he's a wheelchair user

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and it's like there's no way he's getting into that house and it's just like sometimes the small things where you're like i feel seen by this this is

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so good like and they're also the small kind of educational bits that i think can be really impactful

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for non-disabled people to really pick up on and and learn from i think i honestly before we give our scores tracy

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i think i just have one other like quick question for you and i think it's about you sort of touched on it before when

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you're explaining why um representation and inclusion is important but it's about um allyship for

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not like i guess allyship specifically for people with disability in the industry and i guess

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why do you think it's important or do you have a bit of a call to action for anyone else that's non-disabled in the

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industry to kind of try and uplift disabled creatives to get opportunities

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you know i i feel like i'm still learning every single day about what i can do um better and that

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challenging my own notions like wanna you know we all i most of us know these

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days about our pronouns that we share our pronouns so that we um are

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respectful of the people that we're talking to and how we're talking to them um but i think one of the things i've

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learned is that people with disabilities have different ways that they'd like to

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be referred to like some people don't want to be referred to as having a disability

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um they may have you know a physical challenge and so part of my

31:47

learning has been to um understand when i'm working with people how

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they would like me to refer um to them and to you know their access issue or their

32:00

ability um and so you know i'm always learning and trying to get it right but

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and i'm very happy to be called out can i say that and i think more of my peers should be willing to be called out like

32:13

in please be respectful and nice to us because we're we're learning but um but i do think

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i do think we should be very open to that because we are going to mess it up if you don't have

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that experience you don't have that lived experience you don't have those people um you know around you and so you might be

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working with people who have you know someone who's deaf or someone who's

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blind or someone who's in a wheelchair or as an amputee um they're all very different things

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um and so sometimes you've gotta ask questions but you have to do it

32:49

respectfully and sometimes we're gonna get it wrong and i wanna learn so i wanna be called out um

32:55

in a way that enables me to learn so i get it right and and i do better like i think probably just like two little

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things is like one absolutely like we are all learning like nobody

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is some like perfect inclusion person advocate thing that you know he's going

33:12

to get absolutely everything right about every marginalized community or oppressed person like it's nobody is

33:17

perfect yet and i think we all need the room to learn and get better at being

33:23

more inclusive and i think that's a really important message for us to share on this series is you know we can be

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quite critical about certain representations and certain portrayals or things that are done or said whatever

33:36

but the main thing i guess is that we are trying to educate and that part of that is creating the room in the space

33:42

and the forgiveness almost to actually let people then go okay cool next time

33:48

i'll do better because that's the most important part is that we're just consistently trying to do better all of us though

33:53

um and then i love the other point about like yes not everybody like has the same

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language that they like to use around their own experience yeah no matter what experience it is disability sexuality

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like you know gender expression whatever it is like gender identity it's you know

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everybody has different language um some there's there's a big difference between um disabled person and person with

34:17

disability but i think the main thing really is that you actually either ask or listen to how somebody is actually speaking

34:24

about themselves and then adopt that same language so thanks for raising those points i love

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that now are we ready to give our scores out

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of five on the inclusive disability representation scale for hawkeye steph

34:42

did you want to kick us off sure okay well i i think given that i didn't really have any criticisms from

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my perspective and i loved last week um when we spoke to carson schuler um that

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when he gave his score he said in the context of where we are in our journey

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this for me was five out of five representation um i think you know it was incidental

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representation that her disability or her deafness was not the point of the

35:13

story um and it was authentic she actually was able to bring that personal experience

35:19

to the role so yeah um five out of five for me amazing and tracy look i'm gonna go five out of

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five for what was on screen and i'm gonna go four or maybe three and a half

35:32

out of five in terms of the creative process um but i will caveat that with that i

35:38

don't know everything i wasn't there so i would love to know more about um how

35:43

that worked in the room did they even try to get a death rider and if they did you know great and if if they haven't been able

35:50

to find one what are they doing about that going forward um so that you know they're about to do another they're

35:56

about to do a series with echo so how are they going to do that so yeah as i said we can always do better

36:03

so i hope marvel are doing so too i love that i'm exactly the same god we're a little bit boring this week but

36:09

it was such a strong and positive and just fun representation of disability

36:14

you know there was multiple disabled characters um they cast inclusively mostly um and

36:21

i just thought it was yeah it was just a really great incidental representation that i think broke is will hopefully

36:28

continue to break down barriers and the fact that it's you know echo is already sort of

36:34

being hailed as having its own how their own um series is amazing and tracy i think you're in the money it'll be about

36:39

what happens from here um what i think as well is like maybe a bit more transparency is needed as well

36:46

throughout these processes because if we've looked up and if we've researched but we can't find if there was a deaf

36:51

writer perhaps that's something that the whole industry needs to look at too so i think that's interesting but i was

36:57

also a five out of five so i think that's a perfect five out of five across

37:03

the board i don't think we've ever had that i think we need to have like a little celeb celebratory wine or

37:08

something look out sounds good and the funny thing is as i said i couldn't even remember there was disability in it when

37:15

i like first picked it i was like i have to go back and watch it again but you know it's so interesting isn't

37:21

it but to someone else that's going to have such big value in terms of seeing themselves on screen

37:27

so um so yeah thank you thank you for um letting me be

37:32

part of this hawkeye party you are so welcome and thank you for joining us that is it for this week's episode

37:38

everyone i want to thank you steph i want to thank you tracy and i want to thank everybody who has watched or

37:44

listened to this episode i was so grateful for all the support we've been receiving it's very exciting we want to

37:50

hear your thoughts on this week's episode as well as on hawkeye and we want to know what your idr scores are so

37:57

you can grab us on email it's hello reframedpodcast.com or jump over to our social media on facebook instagram and

38:04

twitter if you literally just search our reframed podcast or podcast reframed we

38:10

will show up um you'll be able to find us jump in our posts um and you'll see tracy's lovely face in those posts and

38:16

you'll be able to just give us your opinions your scores we really want to hear what you thought because it's the

38:23

whole point of this is to continue the conversation continue breaking down those barriers and continue creating opportunities as

38:29

well in the industry so my final thing i want to say is a huge thank you to the community broadcasting

38:35

foundation for helping to fund this series without funding obviously these amazing conversations can't happen so

38:41

we're very grateful and that's it for this week we will see you again next week with another

38:46

wonderful episode of reframed bye

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you

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