0:00
coming up on reframed along with your
0:03
sweet special guest Annie Sagara today
0:06
we'll be discussing dead end paranormal
0:08
Parks just like talking about it I
0:10
literally have a glossy eyes right now I
0:13
love that story I think it's so cool
0:15
like ableism is like everywhere and so
0:18
we're constantly like holding our breath
0:19
just to try to not scream oh I think if
0:23
we're reviewing it on like queer rep
0:24
it'd be like a 12 out of five tell us
0:27
how to live how do we do this what's
0:30
going on
0:31
[Music]
0:37
welcome back to reframed the podcast
0:39
that reframes her disability is
0:41
portrayed in film and TV I'm your host
0:44
Jason clymo and today I have my lovely
0:46
as ever co-host Stephanie Dao with me
0:48
along with this week's special guest
0:50
Annie Sagara today we'll be discussing
0:53
dead end paranormal Park but before we
0:55
do let's say hey to Annie and learn a
0:57
little bit more about them so welcome to
0:59
the podcast Annie did you want to just
1:01
start off by letting us all know a bit
1:03
about you and what you do
1:07
um my name is Annie segarra and
1:10
user handle Annie elainey
1:13
um I have been a digital Creator I guess
1:18
uh for about
1:20
17 years now mostly documenting my life
1:25
and
1:26
what my experiences are hoping that that
1:30
kind of visibility and representation
1:32
can be helpful to other people as well
1:35
as seeking community and
1:39
um I guess participating in online
1:42
community in that way
1:44
um I I think I started
1:47
um
1:47
being a lot more open about my personal
1:51
experiences maybe in 2010
1:56
regarding my mental health and
2:00
um that was very much about my body
2:04
image body dysmorphia eating disorders
2:08
and eventually came out on the internet
2:12
as a queer by 2013 I started getting
2:16
really sick I started being really open
2:18
about that on the internet and my and my
2:20
diagnosis Journey regarding my chronic
2:22
illness to later discover that it was
2:25
ehlers-danlos syndrome
2:27
um and it was causing me physical
2:30
disability I
2:32
went from using
2:34
um a cane to a wheelchair to a power
2:37
chair
2:39
and now I just kind of live on the
2:43
internet with all my open identities
2:45
being queer and disabled and uh just
2:49
sharing myself and my experiences hoping
2:51
that that resonates with people and
2:54
um
2:55
as as well as people who may not be
2:59
familiar with like queer culture and
3:00
disability culture to be kind of a
3:03
window and a learning experience for
3:05
them as well
3:07
we're all on this Mission I guess to put
3:11
the more authentic representation out
3:13
there right like we're all wanting to
3:16
see ourselves reflected on the screen
3:19
um you know Annie from your perspective
3:21
and obviously given the work you do
3:24
um you're very
3:25
um a great champion of this you know why
3:27
is it so important that we we do see
3:30
more authentic representation of
3:32
disability in film TV other screen media
3:35
uh just like talking about it I
3:38
literally have a glossy eyes right now I
3:40
have like water in my eyes because I
3:42
think it's such a um
3:43
it's very it's like an honestly an inner
3:46
child healing thing uh I think that like
3:49
so for much of my life right I'm I'm 32.
3:54
and um so I guess at least like
3:57
two-thirds of my life I was like a queer
3:59
person in a closet and a person with
4:02
undiagnosed uh disability uh in multiple
4:05
ways undiagnosed uh autism undiagnosed
4:08
physical disability that like I I was
4:11
able to get around without a wheelchair
4:14
but I like had really immense difficulty
4:18
and so like what would have helped me as
4:23
someone that like you know didn't feel
4:26
solid and who I was or what my identity
4:29
was it would have been helpful to see
4:31
people that looked like me that were
4:33
like me
4:35
um in the media to make me feel less
4:39
freaking strange and isolated isolated
4:41
is is the like the bigger term right
4:44
because you feel so alone if you don't
4:49
what you've touched on is like it's not
4:52
like representation isn't not isn't
4:54
sorry is it not that doesn't make any
4:56
sense isn't just about like
4:58
all you know we want characters that are
5:01
disabled on screen full stop like it
5:03
there's all these things that are
5:06
happening because of the lack of
5:08
representation because of like the
5:10
systemic discrimination ableism in all
5:12
of our Industries but especially like
5:14
screen media because we literally cannot
5:18
even see ourselves out in the world and
5:20
yet we're here and we're like well how
5:23
the do I fit in out there
5:25
well that's it I mean I know like you
5:28
know growing up
5:30
um in our household uh one of our
5:32
favorite models was you know talking
5:34
about myself like you can't be the first
5:36
one like you can't be the first person
5:38
using a wheelchair to go to university
5:40
you can't be the first one to want to go
5:43
out with friends at night in the city
5:46
you can't you know but because you don't
5:48
see that out there it does make you feel
5:50
like you are the first one or the only
5:52
one and that is isolating yeah and
5:54
there's zero guidance there's zero
5:57
guidance and like uh something that gets
5:59
talked about a lot is like especially in
6:01
disabilities like the idea of like a
6:02
disability mentorship like and that's
6:04
kind of like that is kind of what I I
6:07
think I try to do in a way I like uh I I
6:10
find myself in the DM sometimes talking
6:14
to people who are newly disabled or just
6:16
younger disabled people not necessarily
6:18
newly disabled um and uh about the
6:22
different experiences they might be
6:23
going through and I don't always have
6:25
the answers I feel very like
6:26
ill-equipped sometimes like I wasn't
6:29
diagnosed as a child so like I really
6:31
roughed it I don't know this specific
6:33
experience and
6:35
but my point being that there's so many
6:40
parts of these marginalized experiences
6:43
disability and queerness very uh equally
6:48
if I'm speaking for myself that you know
6:53
you have no parent no Mentor no guy to
6:56
like teach you how to do things we see
6:58
these like
7:00
um visuals these representations and and
7:03
film and in sitcoms of like parents
7:06
teaching their kids how to flirt or how
7:07
to like ask someone out on a date as a
7:11
queer person you think that we were
7:12
freaking taught that no not well if
7:15
you're lucky you did if you're lucky you
7:17
did but no so so we're out here floating
7:21
around like how the hell do I talk to
7:23
someone in a flirty way of the same
7:25
gender how do I do that no one taught us
7:29
that yeah so especially as an autistic
7:32
person you're like
7:34
how give me script please I don't know
7:37
how to do it yeah
7:40
when we need more diverse representation
7:43
on the screen we need those moments just
7:45
like that I mean like tell us how to
7:47
laugh how do we do this what's going on
7:50
it's so true like as much as we're like
7:52
giggling about it a bit it's like so
7:55
true though like we don't have it's
7:57
almost like that like visual Playbook
8:00
that all these like terrible rom-coms
8:04
but they are and like they're terrible
8:05
but they still help like they inform
8:07
certain parts even if they're like very
8:10
unrealistic
8:11
embarrassing fact about myself that like
8:19
that like of like social scripts that
8:21
I'll like pick up uh either from Media
8:23
or like there's people who you know
8:25
create scripts for you now online like
8:29
how do you talk the corporate way and
8:31
like how how oh I love especially like
8:34
therapy internet like that will give you
8:37
scripts on like how to set boundaries
8:38
and and things like that and I'll see
8:41
those things and I'm like I'm putting
8:43
them into this word doc and like so I
8:45
can do control fine command find
8:48
depending on the software you're using
8:49
and be like I'm looking for how to set a
8:53
boundary how to flirt how to whatever
8:58
and like it's gonna be in this word
9:00
document that I have
9:04
because talking is hard
9:07
and we like need that representation
9:09
like we need that shown because you know
9:12
I'm sure there's like plenty of
9:13
non-disabled people out in the world
9:15
that just have
9:16
absolutely no idea like they're never
9:18
gonna have like a full comprehension
9:21
like I'll never have a full
9:22
comprehension of your experiences or
9:23
stuff experiences and vice versa but
9:26
you know we have that level of
9:28
relatability because we are all blending
9:31
like as much as possible into the
9:33
society that is just not built for us or
9:36
inclusive to us and it's that's that's
9:39
like yeah that's why I just love talking
9:41
about this for hours and hours
9:43
because I'm like I actually really
9:44
genuinely feel that like getting this on
9:47
screen is what is going to actually
9:49
create the real change 100 I mean that's
9:52
how I feel like we we owe media
9:55
representation a big debt and just how
9:58
much Society has progressed period it
10:00
literally is such a
10:02
it's it's both I always want to
10:05
emphasize that it's both it is about
10:07
representation for uh the people who can
10:11
resonate with these characters and with
10:13
these stories but also such a teaching
10:16
tool that will
10:19
will soften any kind of hatred that
10:22
ignorance can bring about
10:27
let's get stuck into uh analyzing dead
10:30
end paranormal Park Steph did you want
10:33
to um kick us off with a bit of a
10:35
scenario yeah this one's certainly a fun
10:37
one so dead and paranormal Park is an
10:40
animated fantasy horror series that is
10:43
now streaming on Netflix the series
10:45
follows two teenagers Barney and Norma
10:48
along with a talking pug and a demon as
10:52
they discover the world of paranormal at
10:55
their local theme park Phoenix parks
10:57
while learning all new things about
10:59
themselves uh this is a series that's
11:02
being celebrated online for its
11:05
inclusivity of diverse characters we've
11:07
got lead character Barney who is uh
11:10
transgendered um teen boy we've got
11:13
milma who is autistic
11:16
um and that's probably the reason we're
11:18
here to talk about this um quite bizarre
11:23
um super fun kind of like jump scary at
11:27
certain times and he kick us off what
11:30
what are your thoughts what are you
11:31
thinking about this just off like the
11:34
character list alone I was really
11:35
excited to read the so I have not
11:38
watched the whole thing so disclaimer
11:39
like I just just a taste of it is all I
11:42
got
11:43
um but I was reading the character list
11:47
and somewhere along the lines there's
11:48
going to be a non-binary ghost and I was
11:51
squealing
11:53
squealing crying
11:56
so excited I could not believe that
11:58
someone had created a show uh with like
12:01
transness queerness and they're both
12:03
queer they're both queer she is bisexual
12:05
and he is gay and and oh my God and our
12:10
autistic Queen is a brown and and I was
12:13
like
12:14
wow wow this is so overwhelming
12:19
um so delicious
12:21
and on top of everything else
12:24
I I I know horror especially when
12:27
talking about disability representation
12:28
is a tray problematic
12:32
um but I love horror and still like the
12:34
fact that this is spooky on top of
12:36
everything else
12:38
I was like did this person this person
12:40
snuck into my dreams at night and was
12:42
like this is gonna be Annie's cup of tea
12:46
specifically it's funny I was reading
12:48
about like
12:50
um how people have reacted to the show
12:52
and that and um I was reading I think uh
12:55
an interview with the Creator
12:58
um Hamish steel I think their name is
13:00
and
13:02
um they had so many people
13:04
um with autism writing to them saying
13:07
like oh my gosh like this character
13:09
Norma so relatable like oh but then it
13:13
turns out during the production of this
13:15
series they themselves Amy Steele the
13:18
creator of the show received an Autism
13:21
diagnosis which is exactly where that
13:23
was going
13:28
and that but that just shows like the
13:31
the authenticity behind the scenes makes
13:34
bring so much more to the character and
13:37
it makes it so much more relatable and
13:39
real oh I just yeah I love that story I
13:42
think it's so cool
13:44
that brings up for me like it the
13:47
harshness the disability Community can
13:49
have with in terms of like whether it's
13:52
writers or even actors and like whether
13:54
or not their diagnosis matches the
13:57
character and like I I
14:03
completely understand like disabled and
14:06
I and I'm root for disabled actors
14:09
disabled roles
14:10
um but I also have in within myself this
14:14
Nuance of like but sometimes actors have
14:16
to be in the disability closet or
14:17
they're not going to get those jobs you
14:19
know what I mean
14:21
um and and I see that a lot because I
14:23
can see especially with neurodivergence
14:24
like I can see traits and like plenty of
14:26
celebrities and like but they're not
14:29
gonna tell people that they're
14:30
neurodivergent
14:32
um especially like established actors
14:34
now who might be in like their 40s or
14:36
50s for example because like you know
14:39
now it would still happen like
14:42
discrimination of course we know that it
14:44
would still happen but probably not to
14:45
the same degree as like 20 30 years ago
14:47
when they were like
14:48
becoming famous like back then it would
14:51
have been like oh well we can't work
14:52
with you how do we do some people just
14:53
don't know also like like this like this
14:55
writer in this in this show
14:57
me about in dead end like
15:00
no so they couldn't identify and a lot
15:02
of people if they struggle with you know
15:05
getting the diagnosis professionally
15:07
struggle with identifying as it also and
15:10
this can happen so much I see it happen
15:13
so much with autism specifically
15:16
um and especially that's why it's so
15:18
important to me that the autistic
15:19
characters also a person of color
15:23
people of color tend to have a lot more
15:26
difficulty getting their diagnosis
15:29
um because whether culturally it'll
15:31
present differently because the because
15:33
the diagnostic criteria is really
15:35
bizarrely rigid like like like oh they
15:40
have to like line their toys up in a row
15:42
and like okay that's so like
15:45
that's that's that's that's little five
15:48
five-year-old autistic white boy you
15:50
described him cute uh but the one that's
15:53
one of them
15:55
um and there's so many different kinds
15:57
and especially with like fam presenting
16:00
people
16:02
um like
16:04
they are not going to present autism the
16:07
same way that happens to them a lot uh
16:09
there's uh and if you're looking for
16:13
um what can be seen as like feminine
16:16
autistic traits there hasn't been a lot
16:18
of representation I'm glad we're talking
16:19
about dead end now but people have
16:21
looked at like autistic coded feminine
16:24
characters a lot my favorite one being
16:27
um L Woods from Legally Blonde
16:30
um and like at that someone I didn't
16:33
come up with that one someone said I
16:34
think Elwood's is autistic and then I
16:38
like what a cool lens to like watch
16:42
Legally Blonde from that like pink is
16:45
her special interest
16:47
um and like her her like ability to like
16:50
memorize things so quickly like she got
16:52
like into Harvard and like one summer of
16:55
like you know digesting textbooks like I
16:58
was like okay okay her uh this one is
17:02
ouch autistic naivete of like
17:05
um well the name of say I don't even if
17:07
that's even the right word just
17:08
sometimes socially and uh
17:12
informationally processing can be a
17:15
little slower
17:17
um I think I saw that even in the pilot
17:20
episode of dead end too like like that
17:22
they were gonna be they were gonna be
17:23
like uh abducted or I don't know what
17:26
the word is I possess they are gonna
17:29
lose us and she's still there like okay
17:31
but this job interview though like it's
17:34
taking her a while
17:35
it's really interesting though that you
17:38
mentioned like the um
17:40
you know that they're like outwardly
17:42
identified as autistic because I haven't
17:44
watched season two so I'm like putting
17:46
my hand up saying that too but
17:47
throughout season one I don't believe
17:50
that Norma is like identified as being
17:52
autistic although we have already
17:54
identified you know in behind the scenes
17:57
of his interviews with Hamish steel that
17:59
they've identified
18:02
no but like in interviews Hamish steals
18:04
like the creator has actually said
18:06
normally is autistic
18:07
um and I think that was the intention
18:09
you know the whole time like once Hamish
18:13
um was diagnosed as well so they're like
18:15
we'll continue to build on that which
18:17
will be great but it'll be interesting
18:19
because I think you know there's
18:20
probably a lot interplaying into that
18:21
like you've already touched on like you
18:23
know feminine presenting people
18:26
often aren't like identified or
18:28
diagnosed as autistic you know earlier
18:30
on in life like it usually takes a bit
18:32
longer there's a whole bunch of issues
18:34
around that as well
18:36
um and I think like one thing I found
18:38
interesting as well is that like
18:40
before Hamish was actually identified as
18:43
autistic I believe they also had
18:46
um consultants and crew members on like
18:49
set or on set on the production that
18:52
were also autistic from all corners of
18:57
our lived experiences there is ableism
19:00
every time we turn on the TV every time
19:04
we we uh run into a car that's parked on
19:07
the sidewalk when we're going on a on a
19:10
walk around the neighborhood like
19:11
ableism is like everywhere and so we're
19:13
constantly like holding our breath just
19:15
to try to not scream all the time
19:18
because it's it's constantly in our
19:20
faces so when it's so being friends with
19:22
one another and talking to each other it
19:25
constantly ends up kind of feeling like
19:26
a support group and feeling like therapy
19:28
because because you're like wow you're
19:32
being gaslit by the entire planet to
19:35
think that like
19:36
you don't belong here
19:39
um and and that you're not wanted here
19:41
and then you find people who are
19:45
not just like you but but identify with
19:48
you and have shared life experiences
19:53
um and you're like oh no no no no the
19:56
world keeps trying to tell me that I'm
19:57
crazy and I'm not wanted but we are here
20:00
for each other
20:03
um and and like in our community if no
20:07
one else loves us we can provide that
20:09
love and support for one another I think
20:11
that's what you know not everyone has
20:14
access to that in their real life so I
20:17
think that's what having like characters
20:19
like normal and you know um the rest of
20:22
the Paranormal Park crew like I think
20:25
having seeing those characters on screen
20:27
more characters like that it gives us
20:30
that opportunity for connection and
20:32
feeling like oh cool someone else gets
20:34
it they might be a fictional character
20:36
but it feels like someone else gets it
20:42
I think it's time to do our IDR scores
20:46
so I completely made up inclusive
20:48
disability representation scale five
20:51
being the absolute best representation
20:53
we've seen on screen and zero or
20:56
negative numbers if you feel so inclined
20:59
um is the worst so Steph did you want to
21:02
kick us off out of five what did you
21:03
give dead end paranormal so I am giving
21:06
it a four out of five
21:09
um because I really did think the
21:12
representation of what's what disability
21:16
is in there
21:17
um of Norma's character
21:19
um I thought it was done very well and I
21:22
like that there was a lot of evidence of
21:25
behind the scenes authenticity
21:28
um obviously that was reflected well on
21:29
screen
21:30
um what I do want to see more of is more
21:34
diversity of disability in the show like
21:37
there's quite a cast of characters
21:40
um all different more mortal beings and
21:44
paranormal individuals you know all of
21:47
these kind of things
21:49
um you know there's definitely room to
21:51
throw in some more
21:53
um different types of disabilities I
21:55
think we can definitely see more of that
21:57
in there so um that's yeah four out of
21:59
five for me I'll sprinkle on a little
22:02
extra because I'm so excited about it so
22:04
I'll give it a 4.5
22:07
um I I want them to say the word first
22:09
of all like I really only have like the
22:13
truly the pilot in my memory under my
22:16
belt and from the pilot I'm like we're
22:19
not using the words and I would like us
22:22
to I would like us to use the word trans
22:24
I would like us to use the word autistic
22:28
um so that like there is no argument
22:32
among viewers right like like let's
22:35
let's go I had to we have to look in the
22:36
Wikipedia we have to look in like the
22:38
behind the scenes stuff to get the info
22:40
and I'm like no
22:42
tell them and and that's kind of like a
22:44
harsh but I just I would prefer it
22:45
because because I know we don't have to
22:48
I do say transgender later in the series
22:51
yeah okay good yeah
22:54
um
22:55
but I I haven't seen I haven't heard
22:57
autism yeah I haven't seen or read
23:00
anything where
23:02
um Norma as in the character in the show
23:06
is identified as autistic but perhaps in
23:11
short capacity I guess but then I guess
23:13
yeah like I I again I would like to say
23:16
it in the show I'd like to see the
23:18
characters sort of say the word at one
23:20
point
23:22
um it's like I don't know where else
23:24
you could say that officially be
23:26
pronounced kind of thing it's like okay
23:28
we now decree that no more autistic like
23:33
it's not easy like uh I I I'm like I
23:37
said I'm writing something that has like
23:39
diverse queer and neurodivergent
23:41
disabled characters and
23:43
um
23:44
like trying to find places to say it is
23:48
is not so easy but there will be times
23:51
because like I I have
23:54
um some of the conversations that I'm
23:56
writing are like just pulled off of like
24:00
my text messages with my friends and
24:02
like we'll throw it around like oh this
24:04
is this an EDS thing like like asking
24:08
each other right so like we'll we'll
24:10
casually throw it around it's not
24:11
unrealistic too especially among other
24:14
uh disabled people because like we have
24:16
that disabled humor that's right so so
24:19
like we're gonna call it out I'm gonna
24:20
call out the Eds I'm gonna call out uh
24:23
I'm gonna call out the autism and like
24:25
Within Myself and and all right I better
24:28
give uh my score as well before we wrap
24:31
up so I gave denim paranormal Park a
24:34
four out of five as well Stefan over the
24:36
same and for very similar reasons so
24:38
like I really loved like pretty much
24:41
exactly what Steph said but just to add
24:43
on a couple of other things that I
24:44
really loved is I never really felt like
24:46
when I was watching the show that Norma
24:48
was like considered like a burden to the
24:50
people around her
24:52
um there was like some moments where
24:54
they unpacked them like instantly which
24:56
was really good
24:57
um and I think that's like super
24:59
important because I feel like as we've
25:01
sort of discussed that kind of like
25:03
General representation of autism is from
25:06
this like external View and it's like
25:08
how does everybody function around you
25:10
know this autistic person kind of like I
25:13
think of like really good example of
25:14
that is the good doctor
25:16
um and that's a terrible show uh and
25:19
then yeah like I agree I think the one
25:21
thing that kind of like I subtracted
25:23
points off is you know and I always say
25:26
this is that like
25:28
when there's so many characters
25:30
one experience of disability is just
25:32
never going to be enough for me and the
25:33
gold standard is also always just going
25:35
to be like seeing a variety of
25:37
disability experiences and
25:39
intersectionalities
25:41
um we've got a really good start in
25:42
Norma
25:44
um but I think yeah even if it's like
25:46
another one of the staff that works
25:48
there or like the million Side
25:49
characters that are like demons and
25:51
ghosts and stuff like whatever I don't
25:53
care who it is I just think
25:55
yeah make it more disabled we're a very
25:58
queer show make it more disabled we just
26:00
like oh I think if we're reviewing it on
26:03
like queer rep it'd be like a 12 out of
26:05
five for me that's it for this week's
26:07
episode so I want to say a massive thank
26:09
you to Steph and Annie for joining me
26:13
um it's been amazing chatting to you and
26:15
just the insights that you both have had
26:17
on I mean representation in general like
26:20
we could talk for hours and hours and
26:22
hours obviously uh but we've got to wrap
26:24
it up at some point
26:25
um and thank you for everyone for
26:27
following along from home as well we
26:30
really want to hear your thoughts um
26:31
about the analysis that we did about the
26:33
representation
26:35
um in dead end paranormal Park you can
26:37
reach out to us through social media so
26:39
if you search reframe podcast or podcast
26:41
reframed you'll find us on Facebook
26:44
Instagram and Twitter if email suits you
26:47
better and you want to um just sort of
26:48
like slide us a bit of a longer form
26:51
analysis or review where hello at
26:53
reframefodcast.com
26:55
and lastly before we sign off just want
26:57
to say a huge thank you to the community
26:59
broadcasting foundation for helping to
27:01
fund this series
27:02
bye
27:08
[Music]
27:12
all right
27:23
this has been a production of attitude
27:25
Foundation
27:30
[Music]
27:31
[Applause]
27:34
[Music]
