0:00
coming up on reframed along with this
0:03
week's special guest Maya Dove today
0:06
we'll be discussing Dairy girls I love
0:09
this show it's super fun I am obsessed
0:12
with this show although I feel so old
0:14
sometimes you don't need to have a
0:16
moment where someone bees like I am me
0:19
and this is my disability
0:28
welcome back to reframe the podcast that
0:30
reframes how disability is portrayed in
0:32
film and TV
0:34
I'm your co-host Jason clammer and today
0:36
I have Stephanie Dow with me as my
0:38
wonderful co-host along with this week's
0:40
special guest Maya Dove today we'll be
0:43
discussing Dairy girls but before we do
0:46
let's say hello to Maya and learn a
0:47
little bit more about her
0:49
so welcome to the podcast mayor did you
0:51
just want to start off by letting us all
0:53
know a bit about you and what you do
0:56
yeah so hi my name is Maya Dove I'm 23
0:58
years old and I'm a model and actress
1:01
based in Melbourne I've been modeling
1:04
and acting for about four years now um
1:06
and I also have a physical disability
1:09
I've had a spinal cord injury since
1:11
birth and that's why I'm really
1:14
passionate about seeing disability
1:15
reputation in the media but I also like
1:18
to advocate for people with disabilities
1:22
just because from my own lived
1:24
experience I feel like that is a
1:28
cause that I'm really passionate about
1:29
and I like especially working with young
1:32
people I find that due to having a
1:35
disability since birth
1:38
um pediatric care and those that kids
1:41
that live with disability is a really
1:44
passionate area of mine because I feel
1:45
like that's what I experienced and I
1:49
like to be a voice for yeah people that
1:51
can't really speak to themselves
1:52
sometimes
1:55
yeah absolutely I mean it's it's
1:59
um so important to
2:01
um like that experience that you've had
2:03
and you know to use it to try and help
2:05
others along the way
2:07
um so I think that kind of Fades into
2:10
my question for you is why is it so
2:12
important for film and TV and other
2:15
screen media to
2:16
represent disability on the screen in an
2:19
inclusive accessible
2:21
well I think
2:22
in Australia
2:24
there's amount around four million
2:26
people that are currently living with a
2:28
disability and I think that if you're
2:30
not including that in your re in your
2:33
representation in your in the media
2:35
you're missing out on a large portion of
2:38
the population and it just it's not
2:41
accurate representation really if you're
2:43
living if you're leaving out such a
2:45
large portion of
2:47
society and I think also if you don't
2:50
include disabled people in your
2:52
representation then you're you're
2:55
product on form of media it's not
2:57
diverse and if you're excluding to help
3:00
people from that then it it's it's
3:03
exclusion but also it's not accurate
3:06
yeah I love that like how simple that is
3:09
too yeah I don't think I've heard that
3:11
before Stefan but just being like
3:13
it's just not accurate yeah
3:16
and if you don't even include one of us
3:19
it's just not actually the way the world
3:21
is I really like that like I always bang
3:24
on about which is important but like
3:26
always being about it is like the
3:27
business case of it all too which I
3:29
think you know tying in you know there's
3:31
four million of us that's a lot of money
3:33
an untapped Market that they're just
3:36
leaving on the table I guess
3:38
um you know it's not it's not all about
3:40
money but I think a lot of the time in
3:42
these industries as well a lot of it is
3:44
about money
3:46
um and you know I don't know how else to
3:49
make it clearer and I think there's a
3:50
lot of people out there sharing the same
3:52
message too that there's a lot of money
3:53
on the table like you know representing
3:56
us really well like we're gonna start
3:57
spending money with you so yeah and
4:00
there's so many
4:02
people that uh that you could employ you
4:05
could there's so many disabled models
4:07
and actors that you could be giving work
4:11
to so again that benefits Society
4:13
because you're giving people a job also
4:15
if you're not including disability
4:18
representation then what message are you
4:20
sending out to Young disabled people
4:23
I know for me definitely not seeing
4:26
people that had my body shaped because
4:28
we will talk about body positivity and
4:31
accurate representation of different
4:34
bodies but if you're not seeing a
4:35
disabled body what message are you
4:38
giving to disabled kids and especially
4:40
disabled young teens who are already
4:42
feeling so insecure and going to school
4:44
where you're different and if you're not
4:47
seeing okay it's okay that I'm different
4:49
because that person looks like me and
4:52
they're doing really well so if you
4:53
don't show that then it just it just
4:57
hasn't flown of flown effect really
5:00
absolutely yeah it's you can't be what
5:03
you can't see and you know if you're not
5:06
saying that positive reflection of
5:09
yourself on screen in any capacity then
5:12
how does that affect your self-worth
5:14
your self-value it's um it's a big issue
5:17
and one that I think is only just sort
5:20
of I guess being talked about more now
5:23
from a disability perspective and having
5:26
you know businesses like yourself and
5:28
hopefully you know this podcast and that
5:30
is is shaping that sort of better yeah I
5:33
think like taking that like one step
5:34
further too just before we wrap up is
5:37
that it's also informing the perceptions
5:39
of everybody else in society like yes it
5:42
is informing like internalized ableism
5:44
in people with disability especially
5:46
probably young people who are probably
5:48
more like like us like we're young
5:50
people still I guess
5:52
um although I feel so old sometimes uh
5:54
but you know we are very like
5:57
um impressionable from mainstream media
6:00
and TV and film and like music industry
6:02
all of those creative Industries where
6:04
we live we spend our time there so but
6:07
everybody else I guess like non-disabled
6:09
people their perceptions of us are also
6:12
informed from all those places so
6:15
for me I think that's also like probably
6:17
one of the most important parts about it
6:19
is you know creating that positive
6:22
change in people's perceptions of
6:24
disability and people with disability
6:25
because
6:26
you know I get questions sometimes about
6:28
like ah but what what difference is it
6:30
going to make to someone's thoughts of
6:32
you or what differences it make for you
6:34
is in me as a disabled person in the
6:36
real world if you see someone like you
6:38
represented I'm like
6:39
every time I go for a job interview or
6:42
like any time I'm out in public I can
6:44
assure you that a non-disabled person
6:47
has preconceived ideas about what I can
6:49
and can't do in that space and that will
6:52
affect you know the care I get you know
6:55
the work opportunities education all of
6:57
it so
6:59
um yeah that's my TED Talk sorry
7:01
yeah definitely and Society is societal
7:06
behavior is influenced by what they
7:08
consume so if you're consuming
7:11
um
7:12
meet any form of media That's not
7:15
including or that's portraying some form
7:17
of ableism even if it's not
7:20
blatant but if you're not including that
7:23
then you are sending out a message that
7:25
people even unconsciously are going to
7:29
act on or believe
7:35
cool I think we're having great convo
7:37
but let's spend some time now uh
7:39
discussing Dairy girls so to kick it off
7:42
Steph do you want to just give us a
7:44
little bit of a descriptor of dairy
7:46
girls
7:47
yeah so Dairy girls is a British uh teen
7:51
drama comedy comedy drama uh that
7:54
follows a group of uh young girls and
7:58
one boy one English boy that you know we
8:01
won't mention that he's English
8:03
um but uh following them um basically on
8:07
their uh you know hijinks and Adventures
8:10
and
8:12
um it's uh very Irish
8:14
um it's set in the 90s so it's looking
8:16
at the rebellion and all of those sort
8:18
of troubled times back then
8:20
um but this group of girls and boy
8:23
um uh just having fun and being typical
8:26
teenagers and I'm just getting by you
8:29
know as best I can so
8:31
um I love this show it's super fun I
8:36
just I it's it's been a while I feel
8:39
like since I've watched The Comedy where
8:40
I'm literally laughing out loud like
8:43
consistent about the entire show
8:45
um so I guess you know that's that's one
8:48
aspect
8:49
um my uh mayor like what are your
8:51
thoughts so you know
8:53
um do you enjoy it I am obsessed with
8:56
this show I've rewatched it twice I've
8:58
watched it before the final season came
9:01
out and I've been just watched the whole
9:03
entire last season I think in a day
9:06
and I I just think it's so funny and
9:09
because I went to a Catholic School it's
9:11
just so accurate I remember in one of
9:12
the First episodes she's complaining
9:15
about being like having to wear her
9:18
blazer and saying oh I'm going to be
9:19
individual today and I just remember
9:21
that was like a really big point when I
9:23
was in high school and had to wear like
9:24
no full Blazer and tie and tights and
9:26
everything so I just think the societal
9:29
representation is quite accurate and
9:31
quite true to the times and to the life
9:34
of a like a group of teens which I think
9:37
is really funny
9:39
um and the characters they're all just
9:41
so good in their own right I didn't
9:43
audition a couple weeks ago and
9:46
um the girl with clearly the cousin of
9:50
the name is
9:53
no the cousin of the boy
9:56
oh um Michelle Michelle yeah I was like
10:00
watching clips of her to try and like
10:02
kind of replicate that character for
10:05
this person that I was auditioning as
10:09
um and because it's just just the
10:11
writing and the acting is just so good
10:13
because all of the characters are so
10:15
different it's just it's just really
10:17
well son yeah yeah it is very very funny
10:21
um I guess like the reason we're talking
10:23
about it
10:25
um is disability representation
10:27
throughout the series
10:30
um you know I know as well which is like
10:32
the main one that you brought up with me
10:34
Maya is that um there's some like Cameo
10:37
appearances I believe of an actor with
10:40
cerebral palsy in season three is that
10:43
right
10:44
yes there's it's funny I I have um I've
10:48
missed a few episodes in season two but
10:51
there's peppered disability
10:53
representation in season three
10:56
especially towards the end of the season
10:59
um was there Maya was there more that in
11:02
than in season three or was that sort of
11:05
where it really kind of ramped up a bit
11:06
more the season three the last season of
11:09
the series yeah yeah I think that was
11:11
the season that had the disability refer
11:13
station in it um they had two so they
11:16
had a um a
11:19
um a person with short stature
11:21
as a news anchor and then they had
11:24
another boy as a student which I and
11:28
both was quite well done
11:31
yeah I believe the um news anchor was
11:33
was that Sinead yeah yeah
11:36
it was yeah I've seen you around yeah
11:40
yeah
11:42
hang on a second I know I know you yeah
11:46
um and yeah there were a couple of
11:48
um there are even a couple of other
11:50
um uh short statured people
11:53
um I think in our episodes as well um
11:56
which is great to see and yeah one uh
11:58
one I saw one wheelchair um and I think
12:00
that was a his name is Eamon in real
12:04
life and he has cerebral palsy yeah
12:07
um
12:09
that one was just for a very like
12:12
literally two seconds in a funeral
12:14
processions so I'm not sure that really
12:18
I guess like incidental representation
12:19
which is something we've talked about
12:21
where you know like they're not a
12:24
character per se with speaking lines but
12:25
they're they're you know you see a
12:27
wheelchair in amongst the crowd kind of
12:29
thing so incidental representation was
12:32
there but um
12:34
um yeah yeah and I think like as
12:36
important as I think like those parts of
12:39
representation are I think as well like
12:41
we're so ready to see lead characters
12:44
with disability and like somebody with
12:46
disability taking on like
12:49
this like nice chunky like fun role um
12:53
and we need one interesting thing I
12:56
think I've seen is that like people are
12:58
debating whether or not
13:00
um all are the main character is
13:03
autistic
13:04
um and I didn't know what the two of you
13:07
thought about that like I have some
13:08
thoughts and I'll share them but I'm
13:10
gonna give the microphone over first
13:14
I think
13:16
there are definitely
13:18
character traits that do pop out to me
13:22
but
13:24
um I don't know it's really hard to tell
13:26
but I do know that the character is
13:29
non-binary so when the characters the
13:33
skirt that they all wear she's wearing a
13:35
squat or they're wearing a skort
13:38
is non-binary which I think that's
13:40
another bit of cool representation that
13:42
they don't they never say it but it's a
13:44
different that this character is
13:46
non-binary because even I think they do
13:49
say it though because um
13:51
I know James says I'm a boy like I'm a
13:55
boy like I'm a boy and although goes hey
13:57
I wouldn't attest to that like that's
13:59
like yeah yeah yeah it's such an
14:02
incidental life yeah
14:06
yeah there's a lot of there's a lot of
14:07
gender jokes in the series with James
14:10
obviously being an honorary Dairy girl
14:14
um
14:16
um I think she was really fun um but all
14:19
is all is such an interesting character
14:22
um as you said Maya like there are
14:25
certainly
14:26
traits in that character that could I
14:30
could be identified with um autism or
14:34
um a condition like that but
14:36
um yeah I don't know for me that's when
14:39
I was watching the character that's not
14:41
what came to mind I just saw a bit of a
14:44
an uh an eccentric character
14:47
um that was being
14:50
exactly the mom is the mom is you know
14:53
in her own world as as well so
14:56
um however I did you know yeah this is
14:59
where my my background research comes in
15:03
um I did I did do a little bit of
15:04
reading and
15:06
um from season one
15:08
um the actress that plays
15:11
um the role Louise Holland she got quite
15:14
a lot of
15:15
um
15:16
um people writing to her that live with
15:17
autism or
15:19
um other
15:20
um conditions like that thanking her for
15:22
her portrayal because they felt seen on
15:25
screen and it was it was interesting
15:28
because they also said you know that
15:30
it's something that while it's not
15:31
identified in the show
15:34
um this is obviously set in the early
15:36
90s and a lot of women and girls back
15:40
then
15:41
um you know it wasn't identified in them
15:43
back then they did they were masking or
15:46
you know it just you know autism was you
15:49
know something for boys it wasn't
15:50
something that girls you know
15:52
acknowledged having so
15:54
um yeah they had a lot of people writing
15:56
um to her about that kind of like they
15:58
weren't seen back then but they feel
16:00
seen now so and I feel like
16:02
yeah I think that's yeah that's because
16:05
I that's so interesting that's so I'm
16:07
really glad that that
16:09
um the audience felt like
16:10
they could do that but I also think that
16:12
in
16:13
film and TV you don't need to have a
16:16
moment where someone bees like I am me
16:18
and this is my disability like I feel
16:21
like you don't need to do that like if
16:23
you had a wheelchair user it would be a
16:26
waste of time to be like hi I'm me and
16:28
when I was four I was in a car accident
16:30
so now I use a chair like I feel like
16:33
that's just they did it in Glee and I
16:34
was like it's a bit unnecessary like we
16:36
know you're in a wheelchair you know for
16:38
disability like just have the person be
16:41
there as it is and just move on
16:44
yeah it's an interesting one I think
16:46
with like invisible disability though
16:49
um and I guess like I was asking because
16:50
of Steph I know that in the past we've
16:52
had conversations about like
16:54
representations of autistic people
16:57
um so let's throw back to that one
16:59
example which is the Big Bang Theory
17:01
um and it's never actually identified
17:03
throughout
17:04
however many seasons of The Big Bang
17:07
Theory and all the kind of I guess
17:09
you know trials and tribulations the
17:12
characters all go through together and I
17:14
guess what I would say is I think the
17:18
issue comes in when there's a main
17:21
character who provides comic relief
17:23
because of typically autistic traits
17:27
but then the other side of their whole
17:30
like you know there was no other facet
17:32
to their lives
17:35
um that's where the problem comes in or
17:37
you know there's no opportunity to
17:38
actually unpack any of the kind of
17:40
unableism or
17:42
um you know hardship that they actually
17:44
experience like The Big Bang Theory it's
17:46
all just made into comedy
17:50
yeah and when a lot of it when you look
17:51
at it actually and think about it he's
17:54
not treated well at all a lot of the
17:56
time people don't typically treat him
17:58
well
18:00
that is something that I will say that
18:02
Dairy girls did well with the all our
18:04
character is I don't I don't feel like
18:07
she was ever infantilized like perhaps
18:10
children was in The Big Bang Theory
18:12
um she was one of the one of the like
18:14
they looked at her oddly occasionally
18:16
because of she'd say something a bit
18:18
bizarre or she would do step aerobics
18:21
you know in front of the whole school or
18:23
something like that and they were
18:24
considerate of her sensitivity to you
18:27
know arguments within the group or big
18:30
events but I don't think they were ever
18:31
like poor olashi you know we need to
18:34
Shield her they never shielded her they
18:36
just were like she was upset they'd be
18:38
like oh poor thing like it's okay don't
18:40
stress
18:41
yeah and they never they you know while
18:44
other people maybe got some comedic
18:47
relief from her you know behaviors or
18:49
what she would say sometimes the the
18:52
main characters the Friendship group
18:53
they never really laughed at her they
18:57
were her equals which I thought they did
19:00
um really well it's really hard as well
19:03
with you know see that that was done
19:06
really well
19:07
um you know Big Bang Theory and things
19:09
like this you know these are purely
19:12
comedies and while you can you can say
19:16
things it's kind of like how how deep
19:20
can you go with something that's uh you
19:23
know it's it's kind of like treading the
19:25
line and yeah I don't think being Big
19:27
Bang Theory did it particularly well
19:29
Dairy girls showed that you can do it
19:31
well yeah and I think it's that thing
19:34
where it's like if you can't take it to
19:35
that depth you kind of need to be
19:37
blatant about the fact that it is
19:39
disability otherwise it feels
19:41
exploitative like it's like you're
19:43
exploiting those traits of autistic
19:45
people
19:49
I think it's time we give our scores on
19:51
the inclusive disability representation
19:53
scale I guess when you're giving your
19:55
scores thinking about the show as a
19:57
whole you know did they represent
19:58
disability enough when they did did they
20:00
do it well
20:02
um Steph trying to kick us off
20:04
sure yeah I wish I could give like two
20:08
scores like one for how much I just
20:10
enjoy the show I think it's a really
20:12
great show and I won't stop you but the
20:14
one score we're gonna share with the
20:16
world and that's gonna pop up on your
20:18
little screen is going to be your idea
20:20
score I know it's a little bit like I
20:23
again I just love the show I enjoy it so
20:26
much
20:27
um in terms of disability representation
20:30
the what they did do I thought it was
20:33
done quite well
20:34
but there was so little of it there was
20:37
like tiny little camera is like right at
20:41
the end of the series and yes perhaps
20:44
Ola could be considered disability
20:47
representation throughout but because it
20:50
wasn't like 100 like sure that it was
20:53
disability representation it's it's hard
20:56
to kind of base it around that so I
20:58
think for me I'd have to give it maybe a
21:01
three and a half out of five
21:03
um because again what they did I
21:05
actually think they did really well
21:08
um but yeah just if they want to get it
21:11
up to the five the extra 1.5 they need
21:13
it literally from the beginning of the
21:15
show and do so much more of it because
21:17
we've gotten harsher all right yeah
21:20
we're requesting more if you want a five
21:23
out of five
21:24
that's right you gotta earn it exactly
21:27
work for it Maya what was your score
21:32
well yeah just because I love the show I
21:35
do wish I could rate it higher and score
21:38
it higher just due to my love for the
21:41
show and the whole storyline and just
21:43
how it's done but I think because of
21:46
there was like you said there was just
21:47
so
21:48
minimal portrayal throughout the whole
21:51
entire series as a whole I'm gonna have
21:53
to actually give it a 1.5 to be honest
21:55
because even though
21:58
I know I'm gonna have to give it a 1.5
22:01
because even though I do like it yeah
22:04
even though I do like it and how I do
22:07
like how it was was done I do like how
22:09
they had these disabled supporting roles
22:12
but and it was just they were roles that
22:16
and everybody person could have played
22:18
but out of the whole entire series I
22:20
probably only had like two percent of
22:22
the whole entire storyline and these
22:25
actors didn't actually have a benefit to
22:27
the storyline they were just supporting
22:29
so I think to be better I would have
22:33
liked it if one of the main characters
22:35
or if recurring character was had an
22:39
actual disability that was noticed
22:43
so then they could have really portrayed
22:45
it instead of just it being like a
22:47
little tick of the box at the end
22:50
even though they did do it very well
22:52
they did it very well but to get higher
22:54
they need to have like why can't there
22:56
be a a person with a disability in the
23:00
Friendship group or as a parent or a
23:02
teacher you know working with really
23:04
interesting actually when we release
23:06
this episode because
23:08
I did kind of come in and I was like you
23:09
know giving benefit of the doubt like if
23:11
they had because Steph like that whole
23:14
explanation you gave earlier about it
23:15
being 90s you know girls traditionally
23:18
weren't like diagnosed very well
23:21
um I had come in with that exact same
23:24
thought and I was like you know giving
23:25
them the benefit of the doubt of this
23:26
like Ultra clever storyline placed in
23:30
like time with like you know undiagnosed
23:33
because of that like etc etc I was like
23:36
this is amazing like I was gonna give it
23:38
like a 4.5 but it's really interesting
23:39
and I think
23:41
I'm still going to give it the benefit
23:42
of the doubt and give it a 4.5 because I
23:46
feel like I believe that all that is
23:47
autistic undiagnosed
23:50
but what I wish and probably what would
23:52
have actually made me go to a five and I
23:54
think what they could have done is off
23:56
screen just make it clear like they've
24:00
done it with all his gender identity
24:04
um so why could they not have done it
24:06
with disability so you know that's the
24:09
part I think that is probably a letdown
24:10
and I think it's the part that like
24:12
we've said with the Big Bang Theory and
24:14
a bunch of other shows it's like
24:16
Executives on on set are just still too
24:20
scared I think to take it there like
24:21
they're too scared that oh well if we
24:24
say that it is and we get it wrong we're
24:26
going to get canceled and I'm like
24:28
that's the you know the harm harmful
24:31
nature of cancer culture but I kind of
24:33
understand where they're coming from
24:35
I think also people like producers and
24:39
writers in that behind the scenes need
24:41
to realize that if you know you can
24:43
still have the comedy there you don't
24:45
have to lose the comedy but if that
24:47
comedy is coming from an authentic place
24:50
um like we know like people with
24:52
disabilities particularly like talking
24:54
to each other as well like we can be
24:56
hilarious we are funny people yeah um
24:59
because some of the we deal with is
25:01
kind of funny sometimes yeah
25:06
all right comedy can come from an
25:08
authentic Place yeah so you don't have
25:10
to be afraid to lose that aspect but
25:12
using these characters as a punch line
25:15
you know and not sort of you know having
25:17
that authenticity behind the scenes it
25:20
kind of just muddies the waters a bit
25:22
and you know yeah as you said everyone's
25:24
very risk adverse and scared of cancer
25:26
culture but if you have that
25:28
authenticity behind the scenes you it's
25:31
hard to get canceled because you've
25:33
you've done the right thing so it's um
25:36
yeah wow this has been so much fun I
25:40
want to say a quick thank you to the two
25:41
of you for joining me
25:45
um it's been an amazing episode it's so
25:47
fun I guess to be back and recording
25:50
these episodes
25:52
um Derek girls is such a funny show
25:55
although I was giving it benefit of the
25:57
doubt and I gave it a good score two of
25:59
you maybe not so much I would recommend
26:02
everybody goes and watches it and gives
26:04
it a chance
26:05
that's the joy of the ideology you know
26:09
everyone has their own opinions and
26:11
exactly they've got a really good style
26:13
tonight I think that's really cool I
26:14
think it's one of the first times we've
26:16
like disagreed this much can you believe
26:18
it
26:21
it's just because we love the show so
26:23
much that we know what they do good and
26:26
what they do could have done
26:28
yeah exactly if you love someone you
26:31
want them to be the best they can be
26:32
right how we feel about the show
26:35
no amazing I recommend everybody who
26:37
follows along with this episode of
26:39
reframe to go check out Dairy girls tell
26:42
us what you think do you think Ola has
26:45
should have um you know been autistic
26:48
representation how do you think they
26:50
could have done that better
26:52
um tell us what your ibr scores would be
26:54
you can follow us on social media or you
26:57
can send us an email at hello
26:58
reframedpodcast.com
27:02
um and lastly I just want to say a huge
27:04
thank you as well to the community
27:05
broadcasting foundation for helping to
27:08
fund this series
27:09
and that's it for this week's app and we
27:12
will see you again next week bye
27:31
foreign
27:35
this has been a production of attitude
27:37
Foundation
27:43
[Applause]
27:43
[Music]
